Nochistlan

Are any of you from Nochistlan related to this guy?

joseph

====================================


Today's Topics:
 #1 Re: Don Lucas                        [lorenzo.cuesta@...]

Message Board URL:

http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/GaC.2ACE/290.292.300.1

Message Board Post:

Hola,

Tengo un pariente de Nochistlan que habra nacido antes de 1770. Esto
solo lo puedo calcular. Isidro Cajero y Ursula Don Lucas tuvieron un
hijo, Eugenio Cajero, que se caso en 25 de septiembre de 1799. (Si
Eugenio de caso a la edad de 15, y Ursula tambien, entonces Ursula nacio
antes de 1770.)
Me intriga tu comentario que el nombre Don Lucas no habra existido en
Nochistlan antes de 1750. Tienes algun documento que indique el origen
o la migracion del nombre Don Lucas? Por favor comparte la informacion
que te lleva a tu conclusion.

Mil Gracias,
Lorenzo Cuesta
Sacramento, CA


X-Message: #1
Date: 10 Dec 2004 17:25:03 -0700
From: lorenzo.cuesta@...
To: MEX-ZACATECAS-L@...
Message-ID:

New file uploaded to ranchos


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the ranchos 
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  File        : /JosephPuentes (makas@...)/SimonDeLaTorre1_1_2005.doc 
  Uploaded by : makas_nc  
  Description : Simon De LaTorre/Ines Esparza 

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makas_nc 
 







Mexico, Zacatecas, Río Grande - Church records



I did a couple of various searches and got the same results that you
probably got: nothing. I hope you continue searching and will one day
have the info open to you.



I hope you otherwise had a happy new year,



joseph



===========================



I can see the following information won't help to much as it doesn't go
back far enough. . .then again maybe the church there was established
in 1828 and you have to look to the next bigger town to that area for
an earlier establishment:


Title

Registros parroquiales, 1828-1959

Authors

Iglesia Católica. Santa Elena de la Cruz (Río Grande, Zacatecas)
(Main Author)

Notes

Microfilme de manuscritos en el archivo parroquial.

Algunos registros incluyen índice.

Parish
registers of baptisms, confirmations, marriages, marriage petitions,
deaths, and other church records from Río Grande, Zacatecas, Mexico.

Some registers include an index.

Subjects

Mexico, Zacatecas, Río Grande - Church records

Format

Manuscript (On Film)

Language

Spanish

The Poll. . .in Progress



Amazing things continue to happen. . .its the new year and I just got
back from a most remarkable weekend in Atlanta. . .its amazing how even
an abundance of alcohol can't keep me from thinking about genealogy.
Seems that every barmaid was a possible cousin once I found out what
her historical ethnic roots were and compared them with my recent
multinational DNA results. Yes a most remarkable weekend in Atlanta!



. . .well thats not what I wish to continue on but the below poll
results are. Seems that the steam has faded on participation in the
poll. But even though many many more of you all would need to vote for
this to be a valid poll it is amazing that currently the results weigh
in at a majority wanting "ME" to be "MORE STRICT" with potential new
members of the Ranchos Group. But again this is far from a valid poll
until 75% of
the permanent members vote and if I get
60% of those voting to vote for one of
the choices. Also only those that have a "genealogy" registered in the

RIOS FAMILY IN ZACATECAS

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY INFO ON MARIA ROMANA RIOS, BORN ABOUT 1818,
HER PARENTS WERE JUAN RIOS AND ELENA REAL FROM RIO GRANDE ZACATECAS. 
MA.ROMANA MARRIED ANDRES SAAVEDRA, MY GGG GRANDFATHER. IN ROMANA'S 
DEATH CERTIFICATE FROM MAPIMI DURANGO IT STATES THAT HER PARENTS 
WERE "NATURALES DE RIO GRANDE ESTADO DE ZACATECAS"  DOES THIS SOUND 
FAMILIAR? I DON'T KNOW IF ROMANA WAS BORN IN ZACATECAS BUT SHE MAY 
HAVE.




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  File        : /Genealogia Valle.doc 
  Uploaded by : valhdez  
  Description : Valle Genealogy from Los Altos de Jalisco 

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valhdez 
 







Dual Marriage Question

I think they are also called Amonestaciones.  When I got married my mother-in-law did this in her local church.  This is where my husband was baptized and confirmed etc.  I did not know what this was and had to ask my mother about it.  She told me it was a custom in Mexico, at least in Zacatecas, that was a sort of announcement of the marriage/wedding and to make sure neither of us were currently married or related to each other.
Needless to say I did not do the same here in Florida. 
 
Dora

readysetgo95814 wrote:


I believe there is a distinction between a Dispensa and an
Información Matrimonial.  The dispensa was issued by the
bishopric. 
In the case of Los Altos the bishopric was in Guadalajara.  The
dispensa was a permission to marry.  The Información Matrimonial
was
an investigation and once that was satisfied I don't think it always
resulted in a dispensa, but correct me if I am wrong. Also the
Información Matrimonial was conducted by the local parrish.  Both
documents

Dual Marriage Question

I believe there is a distinction between a Dispensa and an 
Información Matrimonial.  The dispensa was issued by the
bishopric.  
In the case of Los Altos the bishopric was in Guadalajara.  The 
dispensa was a permission to marry.  The Información Matrimonial
was 
an investigation and once that was satisfied I don't think it always 
resulted in a dispensa, but correct me if I am wrong. Also the 
Información Matrimonial was conducted by the local parrish.  Both 
documents contain a wealth of information.  I have an Información 
Matrimonial that covered the life of one of my ancestors in great 
detail. It talks about where she was born, when she first married, 
widowed, and where she resided until she married (my ancestor) for 
the second time.  I have a dispensa from 1735 for another couple that 
is 21 pages long.  They needed the dispensa because they were related 
to one another and the witnesses name the couple's ancestors four 
generations back!  It was quite a find.

Maria

--- In

Dual Marriage Question

In a message dated 27/12/2004 08:59:35 p.m. Pacific Standard Time, jonathan@... writes:

Joseph wrote:

- Well I guess i'm not much help but
> what the priests were suppose to do when someone from another parish
> came to be married in the church they were suppose to contact that
> parish to make sure they were in good standing. [Note: Can anyone else
> confirm what I just said. I am pretty sure I read that some place maybe
> in George Ryskamp's Book].
>

Ryskamp, does talk about the pre-marriage investigations, in chapter
10, page 193 of his book.  Usually the results, of such investigations
were kept in the "informaciones matrimoniales" or the "diligencias
matrimoniales"

I can also confirm that when one or both of the pretenzos (novios) were from different parroquias or jurisdicciones, verification of their identities, ages, parentage, and if necessary, deny or confirm any possible parentesco, which would result in a "dispensa matrimonial."  Those would then provide their common ancestry

Dual Marriage Question

Joseph wrote:

- Well I guess i'm not much help but 
> what the priests were suppose to do when someone from another parish 
> came to be married in the church they were suppose to contact that 
> parish to make sure they were in good standing. [Note: Can anyone else 
> confirm what I just said. I am pretty sure I read that some place maybe 
> in George Ryskamp's Book].
> 

Ryskamp, does talk about the pre-marriage investigations, in chapter
10, page 193 of his book.  Usually the results, of such investigations
were kept in the "informaciones matrimoniales" or the "diligencias
matrimoniales"

Also, what makes you think that the two wives Maria Genoveba and Maria
Josefa were from a different parish.  Because, at times, people were
not christened in a parish, but the family may have moved to the
parish, after the children were christened, but they lived in the
parish for years.  The priest may then think, that he didn't need to
make any further contact.

Jonathan




Names of tribes in Sonora records

Kitty,
When you say that you printed the index to the 811 films.  What index
did you print?  Is it a index of the towns, or a index of the names on
the 811 films?

Thanks,
Jonathan




Roman


Any Roman's in the Group? If so are you anywhere close to La Barca or
Colotlan?

joseph




Las Lenguas de Jalisco/John Schmal



this is basically the same info that can be found in one of the
articles found at the website:
http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/states.html





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Las Lenguas
de Jalisco
  Author: 
href="http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec?htx=author&r=rw&a=&ee=rXDtIdbM3py_kxSoOBIh95DOPGRn2RoW&>John
P. Schmal

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Date: 17
Aug 2004 2:51 AM GMT
  Classification: Query

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Jalisco is "La Madre Patria" (the Mother
Country) for millions of Mexican Americans. Given this fact, it makes
sense that many sons and daughters of Jalisco are curious about the
cultural and linguistic roots of their indigenous ancestors. Jalisco
made up almost one-half of the Spanish colony of Nueva Galicia (New
Galicia) and was an important cultural and economic force in the
evolution of Mexico from a Spanish colony to a new nation. Even today,
some say Jalisco - whose capital city Guadalajara is the second largest
city in all of Mexico - is the heart and soul of Mexico.



The
Jalisco of pre-Hispanic times was the home to many indigenous peoples.
Domingo Lázaro de Arregui, in his "Descripción de la Nueva Galicia" -
published in 1621 - wrote that 72 languages were spoken in the Spanish
colonial province of Nueva Galicia. But, according to the author Eric
Van Young, "the extensive and deep-running mestizaje of the area has
meant that at any time much beyond the close of the colonial period the
history of the native peoples has been progressively interwoven with
(or submerged in) that of non-native groups."



The author José
Ramirez Flores, in his work, "Lenguas Indígenas de Jalisco," has gone
to great lengths in reconstructing the linguistic map of the Jalisco of
the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries. It must be remembered that,
although Jalisco first came under Spanish control in the 1520s, certain
sections of the state remained isolated and under Amerindian control
until late in the Sixteenth Century.



According to Señor Flores,
the languages of the Caxcanes Indians were widely spoken in the
northcentral portion of Jalisco along the "Three-Fingers Border Zone"
with Zacatecas. It is believed that the Caxcanes language was spoken at
Teocaltiche, Ameca, Huejúcar, and across the border in Nochistlán,
Zacatecas. A a cultural group, the Caxcanes ceased to exist during the
Nineteenth Century.



The Coras inhabited what is most of
present-day Nayarit as well as the northwestern fringes of Jalisco. The
word "mariachi" is believed to have originated in their language.
Today, the Coras, numbering up to 15,000 people, continue to survive,
primarily in Nayarit and Jalisco. The Cora Indians have been studied by
several historians and archaeologists. One of the most interesting
works about the Cora is Catherine Palmer Finerty's "In a Village Far
>From Home: My Life Among the Cora Indians of the Sierra Madre"
(Tucson:
University of Arizona Press, 2000).



The Coca Indians inhabited
portions of central Jalisco, in the vicinity of Guadalajara and Lake
Chapala. The Guachichile Indians - so well known for their fierce
resistance towards the Spaniards in the Chichimeca War (1550-1590) -
inhabited the areas near Lagos de Moreno, Arandas, Ayo el Chico, and
Tepatitlán in the Los Altosregion of northeastern Jalisco. The
Guachichiles, however, also occupied a large swatch of territory
through most of present-day eastern Zacatecas. The Guachichile Indians
received their name from the Náhuatl language. The name is derived from
the combination of quaítl (head) and chichiltic (red), thanks to their
custom of painting their bodies with red dye. After the end of the
Chichimeca War, the Guachichiles were very quickly assimilated and
Christianized and no longer exist as a distinguishable cultural entity.



The
Cuyutecos - speaking the Nahua language of the Aztecs - settled in
southwestern Jalisco, inhabiting Talpa, Mascota, Mixtlán, Atengo, and
Tecolotlán. The population of this area - largely depleted by the
epidemics of the Sixteenth Century - was partially repopulated by
Spaniards and Indian settlers from Guadalajara and other parts of
Mexico. Other Nahua languages were spoken in such southern Jalisco
towns as Tuxpan and Zapotlán.



Some historians believe that the
Huichol Indians are descended from the nomadic Guachichiles, having
moved westward and settled down to an agrarian lifestyle.inhabited a
small area in northwestern Jalisco, adjacent to the border with
Nayarit. The Huichol, seeking to avoid confrontation with the
Spaniards, became very isolated and thus we able to survive as a people
and a culture. Today, the Huichols number approximately 20,000 in both
northeastern Nayarit and northwestern Jalisco.



The survival of
the Huichol has intrigued historians and archaeologists alike. The art,
history, culture, language and religion of the Huichol have been the
subject of at least a dozen books. Carl Lumholtz, in "Symbolism of the
Huichol Indians: A Nation of Shamans" (Oakland, California: B.I.
Finson, 1988), made observations about the religion of the Huichol.
Stacy B. Schaefer and Peter T. Furst edited "People of the Peyote:
Huichol Indian History, Religion and Survival" (Albuquerque: University
of New Mexico Press, 1996), discussed the history, culture and language
of these fascinating people in great detail.



The Purépecha
Indians - also referred to as the Tarascans, Tarscos, and Porhé -
inhabited most of present-day Michoacán and boasted a powerful empire
that rivaled the Aztec Empire during the Fifteenth and early Sixteenth
Centuries. As recently as 1990, the Purápecha numbered 120,000
speakers. This language, classified as an isolated language, was spoken
along the southern fringes of southern Jalisco, adjacent to the border
with Colima.



The Tecuexes Indians occupied a considerable area
of Jalisco north of Guadalajara and western Los Altos, including
Mexticacan. The Tecuexes also occupied the central region near Tequila,
Amatltán, Cuquio, and Epatan. The Tzaulteca language was spoken in
several towns southwest of Lake Chapala, including Ataceo and Sayula.
The Tecuexes have been studied by Dr. Phil Weigand, who wrote articles
on them. They no longer exist as a cultural group.



In
pre-Hispanic times, the Tepehuán Indians inhabited a wide swath of
territory that stretch through sections of present-day Jalisco,
Nayarit, Durango and Chihuahua. However, their territory was gradually
encroached upon by the Spaniards and indigenous migrants from central
Mexico. After they were crushed in their rebellion of 1616-1619, the
Tepehuán moved to hiding places in the Sierra Madre to avoid Spanish
vengeance.



Today, the Tepehuán retain elements of their old
culture. At the time of the Spanish contact, the Tepehuanes language
was spoken in "Three Fingers Region" of northwestern Jalisco in such
towns as Tepec, Mezquitic and Colotlán. The Tepehuanes language and
culture are no longer found in Jalisco, but more than 25,000 Tepehuanes
still reside in southern Chihuahua and southeastern Durango. The revolt
of 1616 was described in great detail by Charlotte M. Gradie's "The
Tepehuán Revolt of 1616: Militarism, Evangelism and Colonialism in
Seventeenth Century Nueva Vizcaya (Salt Lake City: University of Utah
Press, 2000). The author Campbell W. Pennington also wrote about the
Tepehuán in "The Tepehuán of Chihuahua" (Salt Lake City: University of
Utah Press, 1969).



The history of Jalisco from the beginning of
the Spanish administration to the present has been a subject of many
studies over the decades. This emphasis on the more recent history has,
for the most part, ignored or bypassed the indigenous aspects of
Jalisco's colorful and fascinating history. Part of the reason for this
is that it is simply impossible to reconstruct the cultures and
histories of an area so devastated by epidemics and military upheaval.



Another
reason is that the history of Jalisco from the time of independence to
the present has been a dynamic force in the story of the nation of
Mexico. Nevertheless, the sources listed in the bibliography below may
be able to provide the reader with a new window to the indigenous
peoples of Jalisco.

BIBLIOGRAFÍA DE GENEALOGÍA POR APELLIDO

http://mx.geocities.com/genealogiademexico/menu/008biblio.html


                       BIBLIOGRAFÍA DE GENEALOGÍA POR APELLIDOS
AGRAZ
AGRAZ GARCIA DE ALVA, Gabriel
1957    Un linaje de San Agustín de Tecolotlán. Los Agraz.
            Guadalajara, Jalisco, 75 p.

ALBA
ALBA, Miguel
1981 "Una Seccion de los Alba de los Altos de Jalisco."
            Mexico, D.F.

ALCALDE
PAREDES ESPINOZA, Mario
2002    La familia Alcalde.

ALLENDE
RUBIO MAÑE, J. Ignacio
1961    “Los Allendes de San Miguel El Grande. Nota introductoria”.

México, en: Boletín del Archivo General de la Nación, tomo
II, no. 4,

            p. 517-556.

ALVARADO
PARDO, J. Joaquin

1936 "Real Cedula de 7 de mayo de 1776, sobre que se inforrna del
Entronque de los
Cuatro Hijos de Don Manuel de Alvarado y Guzman,
Descendiente del Adelantado

            Don Pedro de Alvarado".
            Boletin del Archivo General de Gobierno 2 (1936): 79-121.

AMERLINCK
AMERLINK Y ZIRION, Teodoro
1952    “Trabajo

Teocaltiche


Book Bosquejo histórico de Teocaltiche. 

Author:
Dávila Garibi, José Ignacio Paulino, 1888-
Publication: [México,
Librería editorial San Ignacio de Loyola, 1945-
Document: Spanish
: Book


Libraries Worldwide:
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2. Book Teocaltiche en mi recuerdo :

romances, leyendas, recuerdos y tradiciones de mi tierra /
 

Author:
Aguirre, Manuel J.
Publication: México
: B. Costa-Amic, 1958
Document: Spanish
: Book


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3. Book San Pedro Teocaltiche;

m. s. encontrados y coleccionados
 

Author:
Paso y Troncoso

Names of tribes in Sonora records


The north Mexican
frontier;



readings in archaeology,
ethnohistory, and ethnography.

Basil
Calvin Hedrick
; 
J Charles Kelley; 
Carroll L Riley

1971

English
Book Book
xvi, 255 p. map. 24 cm.
Carbondale, Southern Illinois University Press
; ISBN: 0809304899

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    Title: The north Mexican frontier;

    readings in archaeology, ethnohistory

    Native American Dental Identifiers

    I'm pretty sure I sent this to the group but just in case I didn't here
    it is again,



    joseph



    ps: happy holidays. One possible approach for the following info is to
    contact your local university dental school and try to find a "budding"
    dental student that might be interested in examing your teeth in search
    of the discussed characteristics:

    
    
    (http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~grobbins/huh.html) 
    


    Dental Discrete Traits In The Permanent Teeth

    The populational frequencies of dental discrete
    traits
    can be compared to determine relatedness. Twin studies and animal
    breeding
    research have proven high heredity for non-metric traits though the
    precise
    genetic mechanism is not well understood. The evidence for relatedness
    must be corroborated by convergent evidence from metric traits,
    analysis
    of skeletal traits, other genetic and/or serological evidence,
    archaeological,
    geographical and historical evidence as well as linguistic
    phylogenetics.
    This study will supplement research on the

    Names of tribes in Sonora records

    Kitty,
     
    That's really neat.  You are one of the few Mexicans out there who will know with certainty the tribe from which you descend.  The rest of us can go on wondering the rest of our lives.
    I think it's sad that the priests never bothered to identify the type of Indian involved in the sacrament being performed.  They ruined it for us poor folks who feel a need to find out what we are. 
     
    I was reading Victor Villasenor's "Rain of Gold" where the feet of a Tarahumara Indian were described, and they were just like my feet.  I descend from an "Yndio" on my mom's side who most likely came from the Sierra Madre Occidental area, and I was so excited, thinking I'd found my Indian heritage.  I wrote to Victor, asking where he learned what Tarahumara feet look like, and his sister responded (she answers all his e-mail) but she didn't take me seriously.  She said, "Thanks for telling us about your feet lady."  I felt like an idiot! 
     
    My own family thinks I'm nuts for doing things like that

    Names of tribes in Sonora records

    We have found in the Banamichi and Arizpe Baptisimal records where 
    our ancestors were Opata Indios.  Not speaking or reading Spanish, 
    we didn't recognize the term Opata, until we started reading all the 
    wonderful information that comes thru the Ranchos site.  All the 
    years of researching Rich's ancestors in Jalisco and Zacatecas, we 
    have never found the name of the Indios,  but only three generations 
    back, we find that my father, born in Banamichi, Sonora, has 
    ancestors clearly listed as Opata Indios.  This area of Sonora is 
    very hard to research, since the University of Arizonia went in and 
    filmed a lot of the church records, (called the 811 filmes), so now 
    the FHL does not see the need to extract this information on their 
    own films.  So you find very little extracted out there on the FHL 
    website.
    We were fortunate to spend a few days at the University of Arizona, 
    Tuscon,  and got into the 811 films.  There are 27 rolls of films.  
    Found some census and printed every

    Etzatlán

    Joseph, I know you mentioned that you encountered the names of tribes in some records.  Were these baptismal/marriage records in Chihuahua, and how old were they?  I've never heard of that happening?  Has anyone else encountered tribal names? 

    gmccrary@... wrote:
    I have baptism, death, and marriage records for my paternal line
    which date from 1650 to 1825 in Etzatlán.  My line moved to
    Guadalajara.   Most of them were identified as Indios by the church. 
    But unfortunately, the tribe is never mentioned.

    Gloria



    Do you Yahoo!?

    Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.

    Indigenous History

    When I clicked on the link, there was an extra parenthesis on the end.  I deleted it and the link worked.  The correct address is

     


     

    Rosalinda

     




    -----Original Message-----
    From: "Ms. Boo"
    Sent: Dec 23, 2004 10:06 AM
    To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
    Subject: Re: [ranchos] Indigenous History


    I tried connecting to this link and it never opens. Is anyone else having the same problem?

     

    Thanks






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