Dr.mt

Descent of Edward III to my wife's maternal grandmother, Margarita Rocha Gutierrez and to Queen Elizabeth II

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The descent from Cerdic, 1st King of Wessex to King Edward III to Margarita Gutierrez Rocha

1. Cerdic, 1st King of Wessex
2. Creoda
3. Cynric, King of Wessex

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Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Jue, 2017-05-18 03:00 | Enlace permanente

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I followed this lineage as it was in many secondary sources. However, now that I have discovered a different ancestry for the Ruy Diaz de Mendoza that is the husband of Leonor Salazar, I would like to dig deeper into the ancestors of Maria Mendoza, wife of Luis Marin. I will soon post an ancestry of the Ruy Diaz de Mendoza married to Leonor.

36. Rudy Diaz de Mendoza
+ Catalina Arellano del Rio

(Parents ?)

37. Maria Mendoza
+ Luis Marin (b1491)

Does anyone have any evidence for these claims other than secondary sources?

Thanks,

Rick A. Ricci

Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Dom, 2016-09-04 20:13 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

The problem is that in the family there are multiple Juan Martinez de Leyvas and a couple of Sancho Martinez de Leyvas that genealogists, myself included, have confused. Add the multiple marriages and there is even more confusion.

I had previously written:

"I have Juana Garcia de Leyva as daughter to Sancho Martinez de Leyva And Elizabeth of Suffolk but I have also seen some genealogists place her as Sancho and Elizabeth's granddaughter and daughter of Juan Martinez de Leyva and Maria Diaz de Ceballos."

I have found more material indicating that Juana Garcia de Leyva is the grandaughter of Sancho Martinez de Leyva and Lady Elizabeth of Suffolk instead of the daughter so this would mean an additional generation. I need to do more research to clarify if she is the daughter or granddaughter. One secondary source even names her as a great grandaughter.

Some genealogists have even stated that Sancho "brazo de hierro"and Leyva are siblings but the evidence points to descendancy.

Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Dom, 2016-05-29 23:13 | Enlace permanente

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Descent from Pedro Zuniga Ist Conde de Ledesma to Lady Diana Spencer and Margarita Rocha Gutierrez

32. Pedro López de Zúñiga y García de Leyva, I Conde de Ledesma, Conde de Plasencia, Justicia Mayor del Rey and Alguacil mayor del Rey + Isabel de Guzmán y Ayala, III Señora de Gibraleón

33. Alvaro Peres de Zuniga y Leyva (1410?-1488) + Eleonore Pimentel (second wife of Alvaro)

34. Isabella Zuniga y Pimentel (1470-1520) + Fadrique Alvarez Toledo

35. Pedro Alvarez Toledo (1485-?) + Maria Osorio-Pimentel

36. Eleonora Alvarez Toledo (1522-1562) + Cosimo I de Medici

37. Francesco I d'Medici of Italy (1541-1581) + Joanna Hapsburg, Archduchess of Austria(1547-1578)

38. Maria de Medici (1573-1642) + Henry IV Bourbon of France

39. Henriette Marie de Bourbon (1609-1699) + Charles I of England, (1600-1649)

40. Charles II of England, (1630-1685) + Louise de Kérouaille, Duchess of Portsmouth (1649-1734)

41. Charles Lennox, 1st Duke of Richmond (1672-1723) + Anne Brudenell (1671-1722)

42. Charles Lennox, 2nd Duke of Richmond (1701-1750) + Sarah Cadogan (1705-1751)

43. Lord George Lennox (1737-1805) + Louisa Kerr (1738-1830)

44. Charles Lennox, 4th Duke of Richmond (1764-1819) + Charlotte Gordon (1768-1842)

45. Charles Gordon-Lennox, 5th Duke of Richmond (1791-1860) + Caroline Paget (1796-1874)

46. Cecilia Gordon-Lennox (1838-1910) + Charles Bingham, 4th Earl of Lucan (1830-1914)

47. Rosalind Bingham (1869-1958) + James Hamilton, 3rd Duke of Abercom (1869-1953)

48. Cynthia Hamilton (1897-1972 )+ Albert Spencer, 7th Earl of Spencer (1892-1975)

49. John Spencer, 8th Earl of Spencer (1924-1992) + France's Ruth Roche (1936-2004)

50. Lady Diana Spencer (1961-1997)

-________________________________________________________________________

32. Pedro López de Zúñiga y García de Leyva, I Conde de Ledesma, Conde de Plasencia, Justicia Mayor del Rey and Alguacil mayor del Rey + Isabel de Guzmán y Ayala, III Señora de Gibraleón

33. Diego Lopez de Zuniga (married twice, this is his first marriage)
+ Aldonza de Avellaneda de Aza

34. Isabel de Zuniga y Avellaneda
+ Pedro Gonzalez de Mendoza

35. Juan Hurtado de Mendoza, 5th Sr. De Moron
+ Luisa Velasquez de Cuellar y Velasco

36. Rudy Diaz de Mendoza
+ Catalina Arellano del Rio

37. Maria Mendoza
+ Luis Marin

38. Mariana Mendoza
+ Cap.Juan Zaldivar

39. Maria Zaldivar Mendoza
+ Balthazar Temino de Banuelos

40. Anna Maria Banuelos m. Aft.1543
+ Francisco Figueroa de Carbajal b.abt1520

41. Francisca Figueroa Temino de Banuelos b.1548
+ Rodrigo de Carbajal, I (b.1535)

42. Rodrigo de Carbajal II
+ Melchora de los Reyes Rodriguez

43. Rodrigo de Carbajal b.abt 1603, m. 12/Sep/1628
+ Juana Lomelin y Benavides abt 1610 daughter of Italian Carlo Lomelini

44. Leonor Carbajal Bracamonte b.abt.1631, m.abt 1660
+ Juan Gonzalez de Hermosillo (b.1635, d.24/June/1699)

45. Ana Gonzalez de Hermosillo y Carbajal
+ Esteban Gomez Hurtado de Mendoza

46. Micaela Gomez Hurtado de Mendoza (c.29/May/1698) m.10/Feb/1716
+ Jose Munoz de Nava ((b.abt1698)

47. Jose Antonio Munoz de Nava
+ Gertrudis Garcia de H. y Franco (Aka Gertrudis Ramirez y Franco)

48. Juan Manuel Munoz de Nava
+ Apolonia Marquez

49. Maria de la Trinidad Munoz de Nava m. 20/Aug/1821
+ Jose Francisco de la Trinidad Martin del Campo

50. Jose Luis Deonicio Martin del Campo c.17/Oct/1822, m.29/May/1844
+ Maria Vicenta Florencia Pedrosa

51. Maria Campos y Pedrosa, m. 9/Feb/1859
+ Felipe de Jesus Gutierrez y Munoz

52. Maximiana Gutierrez y Campos b.1876, d. 13/Nov/1934
+ Ciriaco Rocha (b.1871)

53. Margarita Rocha Gutierrez, b.1910,
+ Pablo Lomelin, b.5/Jan/1905

Additional notes to help explain why some genealogist follow different genealogies
Pedro Lopez de Zuniga (-Ricohombre y Mariscal de Castilla. Sr del Estado de Zúñiga, (Camarero Mayor de Enrique III, y Justicia Mayor, y Alguacil Mayor de Castilla) married to Juana Garcia de Leyva (Sra. de Villavaquerín (Valladolid). Camarera Mayor de la Reina Beatriz de Portugal)
I have Juana Garcia de Leyva as daughter to Sancho Martinez de Leyva And Elizabeth of Suffolk but I have also seen some genealogists place her as Sancho and Elizabeth's granddaughter and daughter of Juan Martinez de Leyva and Maria Diaz de Ceballos. But Maria Diaz de Ceballos is Sancho Martinez de Leyva's mother and third cousin to Edward Windsor (King Edward III of England.). One of the reason that many genealogists have mixed up family trees is that Sancho Martinez de Leyva's father, Juan Martinez de Leiva y Velasco, married three times.

Pedro Lopez de Zuniga and Juana Garcia de Leyva are the parents of Pedro Lopez Zuniga 1st Conde de Ledesma. Pedro de Zuniga is the oldest son. 1st Conde de Ledesma y Plasencia, Justicia Mayor del Rey and Alguacil mayor del Rey, married to Isabel Guzman. Pedro and Isabel have two children marry into the Pimentel family and their descendants marry into the Alvarez de Toledo family. In many family trees there are mistakes as to whether they belong as a descendant of the son, Alvaro, or the daughter, Elvira.

Pedro de Zuniga (Conde de Ledesma) and Isabel Guzman's son named Alvaro Perez de Zuniga y Leyva has two marriages. His second marriage is to Eleonore Pimentel. Alvaro and Eleonore's daughter Isabela marries Fadrique Alvarez de Toledo.

Pedro de Zuniga (Conde de Ledesma) and Isabel Guzman have a daughter named Elvira de Zuniga y Guzman. Elvira has two marriages. Her first marriage is to Juan Alfonso Pimentel. Elvira's second marriage is to Pedro Alvarez Osorio (it is also his second marriage). Through this second marriage there is descent that also marries into the Alvarez de Toledo family.

As you can see the mixture of the Zuniga, Pimentel and Alvarez Toledo surnames have contributed to confusion as to whether they descend from Alvaro Perez de Zuniga y Leyva and Eleonore Pimentel or from Elvira de Zuniga and Pedro Alvarez Osorio, Conde de Trastámara. There is also a branch of the Osorio Pimenetel family that marries into the Alvarez de Toledo family that does not descend from the Zuniga family.

The key is that Elvira's first husband was Pimentel but the descent that marries into the Alvarez Toledo family is through the descent from the second husband, Pedro Alvarez de Osorio (Conde de Trastámara). When the Pimentel surname is involved, and there is not an Osorio surname attached, then the descent is through Alvaro Perez de Zuniga y Leyva and Eleonore Pimentel.

Source:Mygenes2000
R.A.Ricci

Comentario

Fernandez is wrong about the name of the wife of Rodrigo de Caravajal because in 1568 Francisco de Figueroa himself stated his daughter Francisca married Rodrigo de Caravajal

Source

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/55292850/Amaya%2C%20T.%20J%20(1983)…

Comentario

Dear Alex,

Please look at the thread:

Colio and Covarrubias connection to Suarez de Ibarra and Sanchez de Porras

And the thread on Toribio Hernandez Arellano

Francisco and Diego are not first cousins. With all the information that we do have on the family, It is 99,99999999999999999999999999999... % improbable for them to be first cousins. They are uncle and nephew.

Comentario

.
your comment made me smile. I remember when I told my Dad I was doing research on the family in Zacatecas he asked me why since they were all dead anyway! I had to laugh he had no idea how our Caldera family especially had to do with the history of Nueva Galicia.
I believe every generation or two the ancestors ask to be remembered. I had 2 cousins who started this work on the family then I retired and had time to take it further. Future generations will be able to say they have a history and foundation and story that I carry forward with pride and responsibility. I also put my files on Rootsweb.com so others can find their lines and am amazed how many relatives I've found and enjoy. My trunk in Zacatecas is my Father, Chet Castanon and if you go to pedigree in text form you can see my lines and they amaze me how I can have slave owners and slaves. Espanol, Mulato and Indio. I am all that Mexico has to offer.
Your family can certainly be proud of what you have done for your line to be remembered!!!
thank you again
Linda Castanon-Long

Comentario

Dear Linda,

I made two discoveries today. One of them was that my ancestors brother raped his cousin, making her bleed and then, forcing/convincing her to marry him. They had two children, one of them the ancestor to many kings.

The other discovery is a very big personal discovery. This discovery brings an uplifting story that has a personal connection to my family. This discovery connects a saint that started the order that administers schools that my wife, daughter, and I have attended. I found out that this saint lived with his aunt, my ancestor and that he stated that this aunt had a big influence on his life. It was the discovery of this story that finally changed the mind of my family member that had said "why are you wasting your time, you should be doing something constructive and not wasting time."

Thanks again for your comments,
Rick Ricci

Comentario

Dear Rick
I thank you very much for all your time, hard work, patience, dedication and many more things you gather to reconstruct brick by brick, piece by piece the most exciting puzzle from which we all came yo life!
I think that maybe some of our relatives are reluctant to look into the past due to fears of finding out that we descend of "little people ", of "unperfect individuals", what they don't imagine is that for ALL OF US to be alive, our ancestors had to perform an incredible number of courageous or clever or audacious actions!
People like you help us realize that in the end we all are descendants of courageous pioneers; audacious conquerors; clever Merchants...
In the end we see that none of the living persons on this planet come from "little people " because our genes to be here, alive, still thriving, have had to solve and survive incredible and seemingly unsurmontable situations!
And the great news is... that... here we are, and thankfully some of us Will not let that all the efforts, all the fights our ancestors fought, be thrown away as if they were worthless, that would be equivalent to saying that we, as humanity- are worthless

Comentario

Dear Carlos,

Thank you for your comments. Much of of my research has moved along as someone brings up questions and makes me dig even deeper to find out more of our "ancestral history". I want to thank you all your help on the Pantoja ancestry. After all the work that we did on the Pantoja family, I was wondering if you saw my Ochoa Garibay findings. Have you seen that post?

Diego Otxoa Garibai (aka Diego Ochoa-Garibay) married to Juana Nunez de Sotomayor:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/23400

Thanks again,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Rick

On page 27 of "Fundadores de Nueva Galicia, Guadalajara, Tomo I" by Guillermo Garmendia Leal he states:

Rodrigo de CARVAJAL, nacido en Agualulco, muere el 20 Oct 1631

The list of sources for this section are:
FAMILIAS DE GUADALAJARA, JALISCO
BAUTISMOS DE 1599 A 1617, ROLLO# 0038309 y otras hasta 1631 de la Revista de la
Soc. De Historia y Genealogia de Jalisco, No. 5 de Ene 1978.
===========================================
Familias que aparecen en los PROTOCOLOS de :
RODRIGO HERNANDEZ CORDERO, rollo 0266637 (1585 - 1591),
JUAN SEDANO, rollo 0277644 (1627-1630),
FRANCISCO DE ORENDAIN, rollo 0277638 (1629)
DIEGO P. DE RIBERA, rollo 0243181 (1637-1643)
HERNANDO ENRIQUEZ DEL CASTILLO, rollo 0243176 (1641-1648)

Have you located this record? Seems like it may fit in the timeline for the Rodrigo Caravajal who married Melchora de los Reyes

Alex

Comentario

Dear. Alex

On your finding:
"Rodrigo de CARVAJAL, nacido en Agualulco, muere el 20 Oct 1631"

I have not located this record but will look for it. I agree with you that it may fit in the timeline for the Rodrigo Caravajal who married Melchora de los Reyes. Do you know where Agualulco is? Rodrigo and Melchora de los Reyes were residents of Ahuacatlan, Nayarit.
Mary Lou provides invaluable information on this family in the letters that she provided from Jaime Holcombe.
Every piece to the puzzle that we add is very welcome.

Thanks,

Rick A Ricci

Comentario

Rick

I just assumed Agualulco was the same as Ahuacatlan. I went through cited film. I went through all the deaths, and the births and marriages of 1631 and could't find the record!

I was also wondering if you had any additional sources connecting Rodrigo de Carbajal cc Melchora de los Reyes to his parents. Seems to me Jaime (Pctober 1992) had no source for the connection in his letters; however he did for the rest of Rodrigo's siblings and half-siblings.

Alex

Comentario

I don't know if there are any typos, as I am too taken by your results and the hard work and hours put into it. While I don't have any direct relationships to any of the people my cousins the Lomelin and Pedrozas do. Thank you for sharing.

Comentario

Dear, Simona,

Thank you for your comments. There are many typos in my post about King of England Edward III's descent to Margarita Rocha Gutierrez. A couple of the dates I put in are wrong.I also left out some information by mistake. The numbering of the descent from Danish royalty is off. I left out Juan Hurtado de Mendozas wife by mistake, I left out many dates that I have. Sometimes I put a date without saying what the date meant. I should have better explained how a huge number of people from Nueva Galicia and New Mexico (USA) descend from King Edward III, not just Margarita Rocha Gutierrez's family.

35. Juan Hurtado de Mendoza, 5th Sr. De Moron
+ Luisa Velasquez de Cuellar y Velasco

Many families from Nueva Galicia and New Mexico descend from this group of people:

36. Maria Mendoza
+ Luis Marin (b1491)

37. Mariana Mendoza m.1550
+ Cap.Juan Zaldivar (born 1520-1525)

38. Maria Zaldivar Mendoza m.abt.1554
+ Balthazar Temino de Banuelos

Balthazar Temino de Banuelos himself is a descendant of Spanish and English Royalty and I have documentation to prove it.

Diego Flores De la Torre married to Angela Velasco Figueroa have descendants throughout Nueva Galicia spreading Edward III's descendants throughout the whole area.
Maria Mendoza and Luis Marin left descendants throughout New Mexico as a Zaldivar Mendoza branch was one of the founding families of New Mexico. Actually there were two Zaldivar Mendoza branches, with one of them staying in New Mexico with the other spreading their descendants throughout Nueva Galicia.

Descendants of the Perez Gallo, Sancho Renteria and Angela Velasco, and Capitan Diego Flores de la torre and Beatriz de Anda Altamirano, and the De la Torre Ledesma families are just a few of the families that descend from Edward III.

I am glad that someone appreciates and recognizes the work. The first comment that I received after posting it was "why are you wasting your time, you should be doing something constructive and not wasting time."

Thanks,
R.A.Ricci

ya me atore Contreras

Published by Mar Contreras –
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Comentario

Hola!! ¿Puedes subir el link de la imagen de la Fe de Bautismo para ver más detalles, por favor? Algo que me ha sido de utilidad es tener en cuenta los Padrinos de los hijos. Si comparten apellidos similares hay mucha seguridad que sean familia. Puedes buscarlos y empezar a armar el rompecabezas por otro lado.

Comentario

Hola!! ¿Puedes subir el link de la imagen de la Fe de Bautismo para ver más detalles, por favor? Algo que me ha sido de utilidad es tener en cuenta los Padrinos de los hijos. Si comparten apellidos similares hay mucha seguridad que sean familia. Puedes buscarlos y empezar a armar el rompecabezas por otro lado.

Comentario

Hola!! ¿Puedes subir el link de la imagen de la Fe de Bautismo para ver más detalles, por favor? Algo que me ha sido de utilidad es tener en cuenta los Padrinos de los hijos. Si comparten apellidos similares hay mucha seguridad que sean familia. Puedes buscarlos y empezar a armar el rompecabezas por otro lado.

De La Paz y Cortez

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Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Dom, 2017-05-14 16:36 | Enlace permanente

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does anyone have the ancestry of Nicolas Paz de Cortez? Can a connection be made to Hernan Cortez's aunt?

Thank you,
Rick A. Ricci

Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Dom, 2017-05-14 02:16 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

I was raising questions that had already been answered before.

Steven F. Hernandez Lopez provides a letter that Jaime Holcombe wrote shows the the connection of the De La Paz y Cortez sisters to the De la Paz benavides Cortez clan.

Here is the link :

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/23064?page=1

The letter identifies the sister as grand daughters of Tomas Paz (Paez) and Francisca Torres (Lomelin) through their son Antonio de la Paz y Cortés y Lomelín and his wife, Antonia Arias de Ibarra.

There are multiple relationships between Tomas Paez (De la Paz y Cortez) and Francisca Torres y Lomelin, and between the sisters and their husbands thought the Hermosillo lines.

Tronco: Jerónimo de Benavides and Catalina Cortés

María Benavides------------------------ 1st-------------- Jerónima Benavides
md. Carlos Lomelín md. 1) Nicolás (Paez) de la Paz y Cortés

Domingo Lomelín---------------------- 2nd------------- Francisco (Paez) de la Paz y Cortés
md. Juana de Mendoza md. Francisca Sánchez Carranza

[Joseph de Lomelín]----------------------- 3rd---------- Thomas de Páez, the groom
[+Micaela de Hermosillo]

Francisca Torres, the bride--------------- 4th

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

This is the second tree:

Tronco: Juan González de Hermosillo and María Muñoz

Juan González de Hermosillo--------- 1st-------------- Francisco Muñoz Cabessa
had an illegitimate daughter md. Francisca de Torres
an Indian from Tonallán (Tonalá)

Ana Muñoz (mestiza)------------------ 2nd------------- Micaela de Hermosillo
md. Diego Sánchez Carranza md Joseph de Lomelín
(mestizo)

Francisca Sánchez Carranza----------- 3rd------------- Francisca Torres, the bride
[+Francisco de Páez]

Thomas de Páez, the groom ----------- 4th

Thomas de Paez (Paz) y Cortez and Francisca Torres are the parents Antonio de la Paz y Cortés y Lomelín who is married to Antonia Arias de Ibarra.

Thanks,

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Hello Rick,

I just noticed your post on my Benavides thread, but I am answering on your newer thread. As you pointed out, Holcombe already solved the puzzle, so I do not have much more to add.

However, given my recent research and reconstruction of the early Benavides generations, the trunk for this tree would now be known to be Catalina Cortez (II) (wife of N.N., and daughter of Geronimo de Benavides and Catalina Cortez (I)). So the updated tree would look like this:

Parents of Tronco: Jeronimo de Benavides and Catalina Cortez (I)

Tronco: Catalina Cortez (II) de Benavides and N.N.

Maria Benavides---------------1st------- Jeronima Benavides
md. Carlos Lomelin----------------------md. Nicolas (Paez) de la Paz y Cortez

Domingo Lomelin---------------2nd------- Francisco (Paez) de la Paz y Cortez
md. Juana de Mendoza-----------------------md. Francisca Sanchez Carranza

[Joseph de Lomelin]-----------3rd-------- Thomas de Paez, the groom
[+Micaela de Hermosillo]

Francisca Torres, the bride----4th-------

Enjoy.

Comentario

Thank you David for correcting the line. Do you have more information on the De la Paz family? My wife has some De la Paz ancestry but I haven't gone this far on her line. Are you sure that Nicolas has Cortez in his surname, or does the Cortez come from his mother in law Catalina Cortez? If Nicolas does have Cortez then does this mean that it may be clue that Nicolas is somehow related to his mother in law, Catalina Cortez de Benavides?

Thanks again,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Is there a primary source document including at least one parent of Francisco de la Paz? I have no names between Catalina Cortes (II) and Francisco de la Paz from a primary source.

Here is a dispensa including Gertrudis Hermosillo and her son Joseph Perez Franco. Unforunantly it add no new additional info

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-D2R6-9?i=345&wc=3JW5-166%3…

Comentario

the name I read on both records is D. Juan Perez Franco.

Having no working knowledge of this family but the connection to the Paz Cortes/Colunga that I was excited but overwhelmed with trying to find and enter this family into my tree. would you know how Juana de Torres Rivera y Paz Cortés abt 1595– married to Esteban Anso y Telles fits into the people you have posted or are they different.

Thanks, Simona

Comentario

I thought that it was either Juan or Pedro. I went through my research files and discoverered that I have the husband of Gertudis Hermosillo is Pedro Perez Franco according to death records. That explains the tercer con quarto relationship. I would still like to find the dispensation to get more information on the De La Paz Cortez family.

Thanks Simona,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

the following records all point to the same people you mentioned just that there are variations to their names

www.familysearch.org

Don Ygnacio Peres De Paredes Married twice Catharina first wife
1715–Deceased • KHY5-5GR​
Catharina De La Paz y Cortes
–1743 • LRJG-F7B​
Marriage: 5 June 1737
Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, Mexico

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-XYQT

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-XYV1

Comentario

The record does say juan. There is a Pedro, nephew to Juan that is married to women with the same name, Gertrudis de Hermosillo.

In my records, I already had the brothers listed as sons of Juan but had them using Perez de Paredes as the surname and did not have wives for them. I also already had their birthdates. All the pieces have fallen in place except we still need the letters of dispensation to show the ancestry of the De la Paz Cortez ancestors since they were related "tercer con Quarto grado." Since they both couples were married in the middle of the year, 5/June1737, it is most likely that the dispensation was also given in that same year, 1737. These two dispensations most likely will be a big puzzle piece that will connect the De la Paz family members to the Hermosillos and Benavides-Cortez families.

Antonia frias de Ybarra may be Arias de Ybarra. What do you think, Frias or Arias?

Thanks,

Rick A. Ricci

Bernal Marmolejo alias Bernal de Encalada

Published by sarod77 –
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Are these two Juan de Dios the same person?

Juan De Dios Bernal Marmolexo (there is a sanchez as well before bernal)

Vs.
Juan de Dios de Encalada

Comentarios

Comentario

here are records to compare

Baptism record for Juan Bernardo Bernal Delgado

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NK2R-S62

Juan Bernardo Bernal de Encalada marriage to Salas Image of marriage
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6PHQ-1JD

Also the son of Marmolejo and Delgado, Juan de Dios Bernal is Married to Gertrudis Carrion but there is a record that I believe is her as well attached but she is now Gertrudis Lopes de Nava (she was Padre no Conocido at marriage)

Husebio Delgado y Pascuala Gallegos de Cabrera

Published by sarod77 –
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Juan Delgado son of Eusebio Delgado and Pascuala cc Teodora de Ollavides (dif spellings)
He is from Pinos and she is from Asientos, Aguascalientes.

They have an IM in Pinos

Comentarios

"RESERVED” church ledger or register?

Published by allipeacock –
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We’ve run into a challenge I’ve never encountered before. Does anyone have experience finding records from a “RESERVED” church ledger?

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Comentario

it may be in the book for hijos naturales where the father and mother were not married.
I found my grandmother there..

Comentario

I have one ancestor where it said that but i dont remember who it was. But the information that they didnt mention on the record was actually mentioned a few pages away in the same book so I don't know if that was also the reserve book or if there was another book somewhere else.

Mariano OLIVARES & Mariaia Catarina de Avalos

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I need help. I am looking for the marriage dispensation of Mariano Olivares and Maria Catarina de Avalos.

While searching on the internet I found:

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi Rick,

It's on img404, roll 168071, the date is 18 Jan 1787:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-66SN-5C?i=403&wc=12005689&…

The couple were at 4/3 consanguinity. What's interesting is they have the tronco as Juan de Ornelas cc Polonia de los Angeles, though I have Juan de Ornelas married to Sebastiana Ortiz.

Saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comentario

Hi Manny,

Your assistance is greatly appreciated. This marriage dispensation is a big puzzle piece as it connects a future NFL football hall of fame Mexican -American to Moctezuma II through my research on the Ruiz de Esparza family. This adds an important chapter to my book on the Ruiz de Esparza. I am very happy to find this information before finishing the book on the Ruiz de Esparza as it adds much to it.

Because of this puzzle piece, I now feel comfortable writing this NFL football great who hasn't received the credit that he deserves as he stands shoulder to shoulder with Mike Ditka in the record books.

I would appreciate whatever puzzle pieces you can add as to the ancestry of Alonso Olivares, Juan de Ornelas, Polonia de Los Angeles, and Diego Flores.

Thanks again,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Hi Manny,

The information that you have on Matias Ornelas' mother is based on the baptismal record at this link: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-XY9B-RD?mode=g&i=212&cc=18…

From this information either we are talking of different Matias de Ornelas, both having a father named Juan Ornelas, or we have a case where juan de Hornelas remarried and his second wife is the one that is named in the marriage dispensation instead of the biological mother. But the problem with that scenario is that Sebastiana is listed as a widow of Juan Ornelas so she could not have pre deceased him. If they are different wives to the same Juan then Polonia de Los Angeles would have to be the first wife.The third scenario is that Sebastiana is the same person as Polonia de Los Angeles.

In many other dispensations, the spouses aren't listed, so I am assuming that this added information is given because of multiple marriages. More puzzle pieces are needed to clarify the differing information on the spouses.

Thanks again,
Rick A. Ricci

Interpreting DOB from Baptism Record: "de xxxxxx dias de nacido"

Published by eduardo1966 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Is there a more likely interpretation of the date of birth when a baptism record describes an infant's as as "de xxxxx dias de nacido"? xxxxx is a number, siete, quatro, un, etc.

Comentarios

Published by victorianonavarro (no verificado) – Mar, 2017-05-09 22:44 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

Some priests used inclusive date counting, some exclusive date counting. In the inclusive one you include all the days, so if the child was 3 days old and baptized on Sunday, he was born on Friday (Friday, Saturday and Sunday makes 3 days). If they used exclusive date counting, then you exclude one day, and the child from the previous example would have been born on Thursday. I agree checkng for saints days may give you clues regarding which system they used on that parish at that time.
VN

Comentario

When I find baptisms that mention, for example, baptized on March 25 and "de 3 dias de nacido, I substract the number of days to the day of baptism, and I write the day of birth as born "circa March 22". I have seen it several times that this usage is not consistent and sometimes, they include the day of the baptism as part of that number, but other times, they do not.

Sometimes there may be clues, for example, the "santoral catolico" mentions what saints are celebrated on each day, and for example if the child is called Guadalupe and I have to pick between December 11 and December 12, I will be inclined to go with the day of the Virgin of Guadalupe. But in many instances there are no clues, so I always use the word "circa" if there is no specific date mentioned.

Comentario

If a baby is born today may 8th and it says de cinco días nacido then the baby was born may 3rd.

Danny C. Alonso

Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Mié, 2017-05-10 00:16 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

Victoriano is correct. Some priests used inclusive date counting, some exclusive date counting in Baptismal records. So it easy to be off by a day or two.

When working with a census, the year maybe be off almost two years.

Rick A. Ricci

Domingo Garcia & Bonfacia Rocha ?

Published by chilerey54 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hola Members, I have a Domingo Garcia married to Bonifacia Rocha - Parents origin ?

According to 2 children of these two individuals their(Maria Leonor Garcia) acta de Bautismos 1801-1809 de San Juan

Comentarios

Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Dom, 2017-05-07 22:11 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

My wife descends from the Rocha family from Los Altos de Jalisco.

What adds to the difficulty in studying this Rocha Family is that the surname is sometimes written Madrid de la Rocha, Rocha de la Madrid, De La Madrid de la Rocha, De La Rocha De la Madrid, Madrid, or Rocha.

Jose Andres Madrid de la Rocha (aka Rocha de la Madrid) and Antonia Teresa Rangel are the parents of Jose Francisco Madrid de la Rocha

Jose Francisco Madrid de la Rocha and Maria Lucresia Vasquez are the parents of Jose Damacio De Guadalupe Madrid de La Rocha, born in1803. Jose Maria Rocha is most likely part of this family.

I hope this information will help your research,
Rick A. Ricci

anastacio sanchez and related families

Published by stephmartinez316 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

anastacio sanchez who is my 3rd great grandfather born about 1850 and married my maria luz jaramillo. all children have been accounted for so far in baptismals records on family search.

Comentarios

Comentario

Steph

Baptismal records very often name the grandparents. Have you looked at the actual records, and not just the indexes?

If the baptism records do not give the grandparents names, then check the civil birth records. These commonly name the grandparents as well. Many of the civil records are indexed at ancestry.com. If you do not have a subscription you can search at many public libraries, or at any Family History Center.

You may need to look at the records for all the children to find the info you need.

George

Comentario

ty george at this current time katherine brecht and i are looking for the records and we are making a breakthrough on anastacio sanchezs family. researching and doing lots of reading on the 5th great grandfather whoo hoo ! and yes i have looked at the childrens baptisms etc not alot of those children mentioned had his parents listed however on the mother of them it listed the grandparents which was a help .

Italians in Mexico (Lomelini) research Digest, Vol 6, Issue 16

Published by mimasep1959 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello Alicia & Rose,
I like Maria and most likely others that have alteno ancestry
descend from Carlos Lomelini too, so please count me in too. The
prologue mentioned by Alicia lists several of our ancestors: Manuel

Comentarios

Comentario

Irma,

I personally have not connected with the Lomellini's but my sister-in-law has. She has a GGGGGGgrand-father Josef-Maria Ximenes de Lomelin born 17 May 1750 in Nochistlan, son of Joseph Ximenes and Antonia de Lomelin of Nochistlan, I don't have a birth or marriage date for Joseph Ximenes and Antonia de Lomelin yet and I may not have them for some time, unless I just happen to come across them being that they are not in my direct family line.

Good luck in your search,
Alicia

----- Original Message ----
From: Irma GomezLucero
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2006 12:34:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Italians in Mexico (Lomelini) research Digest, Vol 6, Issue 16

Hello Alicia & Rose,
I like Maria and most likely others that have alteno ancestry
descend from Carlos Lomelini too, so please count me in too. The
prologue mentioned by Alicia lists several of our ancestors: Manuel
Gomez, Francisco Gtz. Rubio. If there is even more in the Duran book on
the Lomelin family, Alicia, would you mind sharing with us? This books
sounds so interesting...
Thanks, Irma Gomez Gtz aka Irma Gomez-Lucero

os Ranchos] Italians in Mexico
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Message-ID:
> <3562acd40607151348g6ac2d57fv96bab07bc59c4717@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hi Rose,
>
> I too descend from Carlos Lomellini through two of Juana Lomelin's
> daughters. I also descend from Magdalena de Lavezares and have the
> same interest you do in learning about Italians in Mexico. I have
> found references to these lines in Mariano Gonzalez-Leal's book
> "Reto?os de Espa?a en la Nueva Galicia" Tomo II. There are also
> chapters In Jose Luis Vazquez's book on Genealogia de Nochistlan that
> trace the Lomellini's and the Lavezares descendancy.
>
> I would be happy to exchange data with you. Please e-mail me
directly.
>
> Maria Cortez
>
>
> Message: 14
>> Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2006 10:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Alicia Carrillo
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Italians in Mexico
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> Message-ID: <20060715170039.42643.qmail@web81614.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> Rose,
>>
>> Here is a quote from the prologue by Mariano Gonzalez Leal in the
>> book, Los Duran de Nochistlan.
>>
>> " Tambien hubo en Nochistl?n, sangre Genovesa, como la de los
>> Lavezzari-aqui conocidos por Lavezares, de quienes atr?s hemos
>> hablado-y la de los Lomellini -aqui reputados Lomelines-, Carlos de
>> Lomelin, a quien en la Relacion del siglo XVII se le hace,
>> curiosamente, espa?ol de los Reinos de Genova, procedia de una de las

>> siete Casas Nobles de G?nova, y fue estanciero pr?spero en
>> Mexticac?n. Establecido alli por 1624, cas? con do?a Maria de
>> Benavides, descendiente del viejo linaje Nochistlense de ese
>> apellido, habiendo nacido de alli cinco v?stagos: Gaspar, Carlos,
>> Juana, Domingo y Maria.
>>
>> Juana cas? en Nochistl?n el 12 de Septiembre de 1621 con Rodrigo de
>> Carbajal y Ulloa; y viuda, pas? a segundas nupcias con el
>> Jalostitlense Don Francisco Guti?rrez de Hermosillo, hijo del capit?n

>> Francisco Guti?rrez Rubio y de Do?a Leonor de Hermosillo. Por estas
>> vias, gran parte de los linajes Jalostitlenses remontan su
>> ascendencia a los Lomelines de Nochistlan.
>>
>> Domingo uni? su vida a la de do?a Juana de Mendoza, Jalostitlense;
>> hija de Manuel G?mez y de do?a Catalina Hurtado de Mendoza. Cuatro
>> varones y dos hembras resultaron del connubio; a traves de tres de
>> ellos se extendi?
>> generosamente el apellido en la regi?n.
>>
>> Maria de Lomelin y de Benavides cas? con el criollo de la ciudad de
>> Mejico, Don Nicolas P?rez de Contreras. Una hija de este matrimonio,
>> Juana, que fue bautizada en Nochistlan el 3 de Febrere de 1643, cas?,

>> casi ni?a, con don Pedro Gallaga Mandarte y Rodriguez, hijo de Don
>> Pedro y de do?a Anna. Del matrimonio surgio el linage alte?o de los
>> Gallagas, rama materna del sacerdote y guerrillero don Miguel
>> Hidalgo-Costilla y Gallaga-Mandarte.
>>
>> End of quote. There is much more information about the Lomellin's but

>> since it is not indexed for the names it is time consuming to extract

>> specific information and have not had the time to do it yet.
>>
>> Alicia
>> San Jose, Ca
>>
>> Rose Hardy wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know of any books, websites, passenger ship records
>> regarding Italians immigrating to Mexico say during the late 1500's
>> to early 1800's?
>> I've checked out the Archivos Espanoles En Red website:
>> http://aer.mcu.es/sgae/index_aer.jsp to see if I could find my
>> Italian ancestors who settled in Mexico, via Spain, but have come up
>> with a big zero. I have a copy of the book " La Emigracion Castellana

>> y Leonesa al Nuevo Mundo 1517-1700" by Maria del Carmen Martinez
>> Martinez and nothing in there as well.
>>
>> The surnames involved are Lomellin, Lomelli (Carlos Lomellini about
>> 1600, children and grandchildren in Nochistlan, Zacatecas) and
>> Durazzo around Hermosillo, San Miguel de Horcasitas, Sonora in the
>> late 1700's to early 1800's.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Rose
>> Fresno, CA

Comentario

Hello Alicia, it's been many years since your post about your sister-in-law's lineage, but I was wondering if you or her found information on Joseph Ximenes and Antonia Lomelin's marriage or parents. I am from this line through their son Manuel Ximenes Lomelin born in August, 1721. I believe he may be the first born son. They had children through 1750. I found that their children's birth records are listed in Nochistlan, but are recorded as born in Mexticacan, Jalisco. I am just beginning the research of this line, but I found Lorenzo Ximenes and Ana Carranza -or Carasal, fitting the time frame and also recorded in Nochistlan as possible parents. Manuel married Luisa de Sandobal and they named one of their sons Lorenzo. I am from Manual's son Mariano and Luiza Martin de Campo's lineage. Thank you for any information you could share. Cynthia Jimenez

Comentario

Yes, that Duran book does sound interesting. I'm still on the hunt for more
Italian information in Mexico on the net. Imagine my surprise to find out I
have two Italian lines not just one. I have other surnames that may be
Italian also but these are lines I'm having a problems with, Pompa and
Pisana in Aguascalientes. These people just seem to appear from no where...I
joke with my mother and tell her that they were delivered via an UFO.

Rose

Comentario

There is a town just outside of San Miguel de Allende that was settled
by Italians. They apparently still do beautiful tailoring work. In
SMdA there is a cheese shop called Formaggio. Marge:)
On Jul 17, 2006, at 8:33 PM, rose hardy wrote:

> Yes, that Duran book does sound interesting. I'm still on the hunt for
> more
> Italian information in Mexico on the net. Imagine my surprise to find
> out I
> have two Italian lines not just one. I have other surnames that may be
> Italian also but these are lines I'm having a problems with, Pompa and
> Pisana in Aguascalientes. These people just seem to appear from no
> where...I
> joke with my mother and tell her that they were delivered via an UFO.
>
> Rose
>
>

"Ameca, protofundación mexicana" gratis en Google Books

Published by V.Q.C. –
Foros
History, Culture and General Discussion

Compañeros genealogistas:

Comentarios

Comentario

Hola,

Te agradezco la noticia. Tengo problemas para ver el libro en visión completa, sólo puedo acceder a fragmentos y es complicado extraer la información de esa forma. Le di click a tu link pero eso no cambia el resultado,¿Te pasa lo mismo que a mí o tu sí puedes verlo en versión completa?

Gracias de antemano, me interesa de sobremanera ver ese libro.

Saludos.

Enrique Agraz

Comentario

Éste es el enlace que te deja leer el libro:

https://books.google.com/books?id=8IpnAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=A…

Es que me equivoqué y puse un enlace indirecto. También puedes leer el libro en la aplicación Google Play Books. Espero que Google Books haga lo mismo con "Esbozos históricos de Tecolotlán", libro indispensable para los genealogistas con linajes en Tecolotlán y Cocula.

Excellent Maps

Published by bjmrqz –
Foros
History, Culture and General Discussion

Someone once shared with me an excellent, free, online map collection called the "David Rumsey Historical Map Collection." Here are links to a collection of old maps from:

Aguascalientes

Cortes

Published by Cortes –
Foros
Genealogy Research

A lo que yo tengo de historial de mi familia.....creo que ni linea viene de H. Cortes''

Maria Cortes

Looking for dispensa Luis Ornelas and Matiana Ruiz

Published by 245luigi –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Jaime Holcombe has in his notes (edited):

Comentarios

Bartholome Rodriguez y Tomasa Ulloa vdo. (both wives related to Dona Petronilla de Gabai/Martin Navarro

Published by sarod77 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

I don't know much about them so it is difficult for me to figure out the complexity of their ties to Dona Petronilla de Gabai y Martin Navarro.

Comentarios

Comentario

So pg 316 tells us Bartolome Rodriguez Bajo is the widower of Teresa Ponce and looking to marry Tomasa de la Rosa Ulloa who is the daughter of Pedro de Ulloa y Marquez and Josefa de Sepulveda y Rojas

Pg 319 says at the very top left, Tomasa is the tercera nieta of Martin Navarro, Pedro de Ulloa, her father, is bisnieto of Martin Navarro. Teresa Ponce is also tercera nieta of Martin Navarro, Niclas Ponce, her father, is bisnieto of Martin Navarro. There is a mention of Lorenzo Ruiz de Esparza as being nieto of Martin Navarro but it does not state he is in the lines being dispensed.

Pg 319 bottom left says Teresa Ponce was the daughter of Nicolas ponce, the granddaughter of Juana de Siordia, the great granddaughter of Maria Gabai, and the great great grandaughter of Martin Navarro and Petronila de Montesuma.

Pg 319 top right states Tomasa Rosa de Ulloa is the daughter of Pedro de Ulloa Marquez, grandaughter of Maria Ruiz de Esparza, great granddaughter of Francisca Gabai, and great great grandaughter of Martin Navarro and Petronila Montesuma who were the legitimate parents of Maria Gabai and Francisca Gabai.

So the tree is:

Martin Navarro and Petronila Montesuma
Maria Gabai - Francisca Gabai
Juana Siordia - Maria Ruiz Esparza
Nicolas Ponce - Pedro de Ulloa Marquez
Teresa Ponce - Tomasa Ulloa

I hope this was able to answer your question.

Alex

Comentario

So Martin Navarro (some have him as Gabai) cc Petronila Montesuma (Parents Root)
Maria Gabai (is it Juan Fernandes de Vaulus Siordia husband) - Francisca Gabai (sisters)
Juana Siordia (in the familysearch she is with Bernardo Salado aka Ruis de Esparsa) or ?
she is 1st cousins to Maria Ruiz de Esparsa (daughter of Lope Ruiz y Francisca)

Nicolas Ponce (wife ?) 2nd cousins Pedro de Ulloa Marquez (wife is named in dispensa)
Teresa Ponce (Bartholome Rdz. primer)4th cousin to Tomasa Ulloa (parents above)

These Dispensas are rich in content if you can dicpher them.

Thank you Alex,

Comentario

Well according to the dispensa we can only extract the tree I posted.

From other sources, I can confirm that Maria Gabai married Pedro Hernandez Vaulus (I have Pedro not Juan). Juana Siordia married twice, first to Bernardo Salado, second to Francisco Rodriguez Ponce. All this info is confirmed via Juana Siordia's Will in Aguascalientes.

I do not know who Nicolas Ponce's wife is. Here is another pertinent dispensa:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6K9W-QM?i=167&wc=12512684&…

Alex

Antonio de Cuéllar

Published by Marcelina Macias –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hola a todos:

Comentarios

Comentario

Marcelina,

Mi madre desciende de los suegros de D. Antonio de Cuellar quienes son D. José Macías Valadés y Da. Catalina Orán de la Vega vía su hijo D. Sebastián. Quisiera preguntar el grupo cuál es el documento que declara el patriarca de los Cuéllar como "hijo de la iglesia?" En el casamiento de Antonio y su mujer Da. Josefa Alvarez fechado el 29 de noviembre de 1681 solamente declara lo siguiente: "Antonio de Cuéllar, vecino de esta jurisdicción con Josepha Alvarez, hija lexítima de Joseph Macías y Catalina de Vega, vecinos de esta jurisdicción. Testigos: Nicolás Macías, Salvador de Villalobos y Diego Preciado."

Siempre imaginé que el Antonio de Cuéllar fuese miembro de la familia Maldonado de Cuéllar--ilustre familia tapatía que prosperó a los principios del siglo XVII-- y quienes enlazaron con los Enríquez del Castillo, García de Paredes y Navarro Gaytán entre otros. No hay prueba pero creo que sería un buen lugar para comenzar entre los registros parroquiales de Guadalajara. Si, Antonio fuese "hijo de la iglesia" el cura lo declararía así--pero no lo hizo. Esto me sugiere que Antonio fuese originario fuera del curato de Aguascalientes. Si Antonio fuera originario de Aguascalientes porque el cura no lo describe como tal o sus padres y no solamente un "vecino."

Espero que logramos localizarlo, por favor déjame saber tu opinión al respecto.

Gracias antemano,

Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino

Comentario

Hola Daniel:

Pues la fuente en donde lo leí es indirecta, se trata del blog del Arq. Rodolfo Hernández Chávez, cronista de Encarnación de Díaz "Historias y Recuerdos de Encarnación", en la sección El Sauz de los Macías, en el que hay una sección sobre los Cuéllar en el que se menciona que Don Antonio podría descender de Don Pedro de Cuéllar, pero que por otra parte don Mariano Gonzalez Leal lo habría considerado como hijo de la Iglesia. En algún otro sitio leí que había crecido en la Hacienda de Mariquita, pero no recuerdo la fuente.

Yo desciendo directamente de Don Antonio, así que me interesa conocer su ascendencia. No tengo accesos a fuentes directas como testamentos o escrituras, por eso estoy acudiendo a solicitar la ayuda de los demás genealogistas.

No me había enterado sobre la familia Maldonado de Cuéllar, pero me interesaría saber sobre ella, sea don Antonio descendiente o no de esta, pues por la vía paterna desciendo de los Maldonado de Guzmán asentados en Guatemala, Yucatán, Veracruz, Puebla, Texcoco y Salamanca, Guanajuato.

Gracias

Fabiola (Marcelina)

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