Nuestros Ranchos Site

I agree with this.

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 22:27:19 -0700
> From: rcafartista@gmail.com
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Opening up the group to Colima and Nayarit descendants
>
> I have been a group member for a couple of years and have enjoyed the
> discussion on a number of topics. While I consider myself to be an active
> genealogist, I have been limited (with some exceptions) to exploring the
> areas of Tamazula de Gordiano and Ciudad Guzman, Jalisco. These Jalisco
> connections are my father's side. The other long strand of family comes
> from Sinaloa. That work is much like the work of Jalisco--mostly church
> records of baptisms and marriages.
>
> My sense is that opening up to the other two states, Colima and Nayarit,
> will not produce great numbers of people because most 20th century
> immigration to the U.S. has come from the areas of Jalisco, Zacatecas,
> Michoacan, Guanajuato, Sonora and other northern states. The coastal
> communities of Sinaloa, Colima and Nayarit do not have as many descendants
> as the other areas.
>
> The organizers of the site should have the greatest say in this as they do
> the bulk of the work. They are the ones who will feel any new work load.
> For me, I read the subject matters and decide whether I will follow the
> thread of the message or topic. It may be I do not use the site the way it
> was intended and I am unaware of the gold that lies beneath the surface.
>
> Hay 'sta mis dos centavos!
> Juan Manuel Carrillo

Andelmo Perez

First of all thanks for adding Nayarit. I didn't realize until I started my research that Nayarit was part of Jalisco.
I'm interested in the families of Perez, Manjarrez, Zambrano, Macias, Medina, Salazar & Gutierrez all from Nayarit & parts of Zacatecas. Can go back to early 1800s. Been having the best of luck with Zambrano. Can go back to mid 1700s to Pasqual Zambrano of Amatlan de Jora. Looking forward to helping people out & getting feedback.

I do support the idea of simply adding to the forums a space for those states that a some point in time where under Nueva Galicia territories with out changing the whole structure of the site. Areas change with time frames and in some places is just a few towns that really matter. In my opinion this group can always allow towns (not necessarily the whole state, been Nayarit probably the exception) to be studied within the focused states specially when there was a political relation, not just a family connection, this in my opinion can prevent loosing the Area we are interested the most, but keeping at hand those places that may be essential to our studies, as an example from my own, I have interest in Nombre de Dios, Durango, which is at the border with Zacatecas and after a few year trying to figure it out why one of my ancestor moved from there to Nochistlán I realized that Nombre de Dios was part of Nueva Galicia and was used as a "frontier", a "land of captains" I called myself, saying that and including Súchil, I haven't find any other place in this region with that much attachment, I wouldn't say that Durango (the whole state) is crucial to my research.

Therefore it would be interesting for me to see a broader area in order to understand the "movements" and life of our ancestor, but I am pretty sure that if we keep a social-political context of the regions it would help to keep the limits.

RJ Quiralta

Having not read all the messages sent in reply to this thread, I am still going to share my opinion.

Nuestros Ranchos as is one of the best Mexican Genealogy sites, that I have seen. Some of the reasons for that is quality of the ownership of the site (Joseph) and maintainace done by Arturo. Joseph has been really good at trying to keep the group on track with the stated purpose of the group.

Another reason, is the quality of the members in the group. We have a blend of new researchers, seasoned researchers, and some professional researchers. This pool of experience allows us to make progress in our research efforts.

By expanding the groups focus into other states, it will allow other researchers to enter and share their experience with the group, also it will allow those us already in the group to share our knowledge of researching in other areas of Mexico.

Once, allowing one, two, three or more states into the group where do we draw the line.

As I stated in the beginning, this is one the best sites that I have used to be able to ask questions and find answers. I would love to see Nuestros Ranchos include more areas, or there be more groups for the other states.

But, how much more work and responsibility can Joseph and Arturo take on? They have to have a real love for this work, in order to what they have done over the past years. If the group was to expand, maybe some members need to step forward and help with the burden required to go forward.

thanks,
Jonathan Walker

When this discussion began I was of the opinion that we should expand to include other states. However, after reading others' opinions I opine that we should maintain the Nuestros Ranchos Group as it was set up and limit it to Jalisco, Aguascaliente, and Zacatecas. Occasionally we have had posts and "findings" which have taken us to other states, but this has not been the norm.

There are groups that include "Nueva Galicia" and people can join those groups if they choose to include a wider range of territory in their research.

Deedra Corona

I posted before that I would not mind adding states to the focus area of Nuestros Ranchos, but after reading several comments by other members, I have to agree that adding new areas will alienate the majority of members, and many posts will remain unanswered. We can argue that we should add this state for this reason and that state for another reason, but at what point should we stop? The success of this group, now I see it, is due in part to the fact that it focuses in only three neighboring states. If there is a strong interest to add a specific state, it might be a better idea to create a new forum for that state, and that will benefit all. That's my opinion. My vote was for a yes, now I'm inclined to say no.

Hola Joseph , hola primos!!!

Les saludo con gusto y les dseo un gran día.

Les comento que soy de los miembros del grupo a que hace referencia Joseph y que atinada mente señala como los miembros callados, los quie participan poco de las discuciones y la razón de esto, es justa mente que en mi búsqueda particular he encontrado poco que decir en referencia a los temas tratados, pues el universo de discución es muy grande y pocas ocasiones coincide con mis investigaciones y con mis ancestros, que aunque son por mi rama paterna oriundos de los estados de Jalisco, Zacatecas y de Aguascalientes, que antes fuera parte del primer estado. Aún así, me he sentido extraño al leer la mayoría de los temas tratados, porque no he encontrado una conexión con mi búsqueda. así que abriendo más todavía el universo de investigación, la inmensa mayoría quedaremos desconectados de los temas tratados. también hago investigación de mi línea materna en los estados de Puebla, Veracruz y la Ciudad de México, pero no me atrevería a pedir que los incluyesen por las mismas razones que expongo, serían temas que harían sentir ajenos a la inmensa mayoría.

Agradezco a Joseph, a sus colaboradores y a las personas que crearon Nuestros Ranchos y que se centran en Jalisco, Aguascalientes y Zacatecas y respeto las directrices que han marcado, pues crecer implicaría muchas complicaciones operativas y de comunicación y pertenencia.

Invito a las personas que forman parte del actual Nuestros Ranchos a abrir nuevos foros para los estados que proponen y para los que sean de su interés particular, además de seguir alimentando con su participación y aportaciones a Nuestros Ranchos. Es más sencillo manejar un foro centrado en áreas relativa mente pequeñas, que abracar una cada vez mayor.

Lo aquí vertido es sola mente mi humilde opinión

Un saludo afectuoso desde Chihuahua de su primo

Rafael de la Torre Díaz = rapalato

> From: makas@nc.rr.com
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 21:59:49 -0400
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nayarit and/y Colima
>
>
>
> What are the good reasons and bad reasons to open up the group to the states
> of Nayarit and Colima? Can y’all generate some discussion on that topic?
> Let’s hear the pros and cons.
>
>
>
> Do you think that opening the group to those doing research in Nayarit and
> Colima would suddenly open the group to vast numbers of new members? Would
> the discussions wildly go into topics that would alienate the current
> membership? There are many members of the group that rarely speak out.
> Please consider stepping into this discussion. I’d like feel the groups
> pulse on this thought.
>
>
>
> ¿Cuáles son las razones buenas y las razones malas para abrir el grupo a los
> Estados de Nayarit y Colima? ¿Ustedes pueden generar alguna discusión sobre
> ese tema? Escuchemos los ideas buenas/malas de ese tema.
>
>
>
> ¿Crees que si abrimos el grupo a aquellos que hacen investigación en Nayarit
> y Colima abriría grandes cantidades de nuevos miembros al grupo? ¿Las
> discusiones iría en temas que podría alienar a los miembros actuales? Hay
> muchos miembros del grupo que rara vez hablan. Por favor considere entrar en
> esta discusión. Me gustaría sentir el pulso del grupo en este pensamiento
>
>
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph Puentes
>
> Clean@h2opodcast.com
>
> http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I am for expanding it to only to Colima and Nayarit. Many of the Nueva Galicia settlers of the XVI century traveled and often and even established themselves in these states. Someone mentioned changing the name of the forum to "Descendants of Nueva Galicia." This may be a good suggestion, not the name, but a more specific to our area of research.

Estoy de acuerdo con la opción en que abramos el foro a los estados de Nayarit y Colima. Muchísimos de los colonizadores de la Nueva Galicia durante el siglo XVI viajaban entre estos límites. Efectivamente, el estudioso sabrá que familias numerosas de la Nueva Galicia se establecieron en esas tierras. Otro mencionó cambiar el nombre del grupo a "Descendientes de la Nueva Galicia." Creo que es un gran idea, no el nombre, más ser aun específico a nuestra área de estudio.
Daniel Méndez de Torres Camino

There are good reasons to expand the focus of the group, for example due to movement of people between the various towns in this part of Mexico. Perhaps Guanajuato would be a possibility: Capn. Tomas de Villalpando, an early settler in the Aguascalientes area came from Leon, Guanajuato. My wife's paternal family is from Guanajuato. Her maternal ancestors include many of the prominent families of the early 1600s in Aguascalientes; but the only connection on her maternal side to Guanajuato is Tomas de Villalpando.

That said, making the focus too broad means a lot of what we see may not be of interest. For example, I belong to an Austrian genealogy group with a mailing list like NR. This group covers all of the former Austro-Hungarian empire: I seldom see much of interest, and when I post something for my areas of interest, there is often no response from the group.

With the current NR focus much of what I see is of interest.

Perhaps if there were "special interest" groups within NR, with separate mailing lists, the topics of limited interest would be minimized (and one could subscribe to any number of these lists), but means more work for some one to manage the system.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

I posted about the fact that Nayarit part of Jalisco until relatively recently (1917). However, I really do think we need to be careful in NOT opening the group up to all kinds of states.

I agree with those who have said that the group's success has been due to its narrow focus. If we open it up to historically important, but also distinct regions such as Chihuahua or Guanajuato, we will lose the focus. Yes, there are families that went to or came from those states, but they were distinct from the time of Mexican Independence. Without the focus, our topics will become too broad, or there will be too many families to keep track of.

And if we really consider opening up to more states we should probably have a formal vote/survey.

Let's keep helping one another, but without becoming just another broad geneaology forum...

Sergio Salés

Simple and easy, researchers with concentration in Nayarit
and Colima can create their own forum.

The success of this forum has been due to the concentration of
research on the three states.By opening the group
to other states, we would lose the focus.

Above all, we do not need to alienate the current membership,
who have contributed vast amounts of information, and time behind the scene to helped
make Nuestros Ranchos’ such a success.

Yes, all of the states have tight historical links however, If
we begin to include a few states, then we might as well include the entire
country.

A definite NO vote…with encouragement to start a new forum
for those who research states outside the current Nuestros Ranchos realm.

On Saturday, August 30, 2014 5:36 AM, Joseph Puentes wrote:

What are the good reasons and bad reasons to open up the group to the states
of Nayarit and Colima? Can y’all generate some discussion on that topic?
Let’s hear the pros and cons.

Do you think that opening the group to those doing research in Nayarit and
Colima would suddenly open the group to vast numbers of new members? Would
the discussions wildly go into topics that would alienate the current
membership? There are many members of the group that rarely speak out.
Please consider stepping into this discussion. I’d like feel the groups
pulse on this thought.

¿Cuáles son las razones buenas y las razones malas para abrir el grupo a los
Estados de Nayarit y Colima? ¿Ustedes pueden generar alguna discusión sobre
ese tema? Escuchemos los ideas buenas/malas de ese tema.

¿Crees que si abrimos el grupo a aquellos que hacen investigación en Nayarit
y Colima abriría grandes cantidades de nuevos miembros al grupo? ¿Las
discusiones iría en temas que podría alienar a los miembros actuales? Hay
muchos miembros del grupo que rara vez hablan. Por favor considere entrar en
esta discusión. Me gustaría sentir el pulso del grupo en este pensamiento

Joseph

Joseph Puentes

Clean@h2opodcast.com

http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html

How about opening it up to Chihuahua or maybe states now that used to be part of Nuevo Galicia? Could you poll the members to see which states they would like to open up, and open those?

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA

> From: makas@nc.rr.com
> To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2014 21:59:49 -0400
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Nayarit and/y Colima
>
>
>
> What are the good reasons and bad reasons to open up the group to the states
> of Nayarit and Colima? Can y’all generate some discussion on that topic?
> Let’s hear the pros and cons.
>
>
>
> Do you think that opening the group to those doing research in Nayarit and
> Colima would suddenly open the group to vast numbers of new members? Would
> the discussions wildly go into topics that would alienate the current
> membership? There are many members of the group that rarely speak out.
> Please consider stepping into this discussion. I’d like feel the groups
> pulse on this thought.
>
>
>
> ¿Cuáles son las razones buenas y las razones malas para abrir el grupo a los
> Estados de Nayarit y Colima? ¿Ustedes pueden generar alguna discusión sobre
> ese tema? Escuchemos los ideas buenas/malas de ese tema.
>
>
>
> ¿Crees que si abrimos el grupo a aquellos que hacen investigación en Nayarit
> y Colima abriría grandes cantidades de nuevos miembros al grupo? ¿Las
> discusiones iría en temas que podría alienar a los miembros actuales? Hay
> muchos miembros del grupo que rara vez hablan. Por favor considere entrar en
> esta discusión. Me gustaría sentir el pulso del grupo en este pensamiento
>
>
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph Puentes
>
> Clean@h2opodcast.com
>
> http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

My maternal Delgado line left Tlaltenango and Atolinga,Zacatecas after 300+ years and settled in La Yesca and Ixtlan del Rio, Nayarit in the late 1800's. My mother was born in Ixtlan del Rio, Nayarit.

On my paternal Rojas side, my last name started out as Roxas in Amatlan de Jora, Nayarit in the early 1700's. They then settled in Hostotipaquillo, Jalisco in 1840's.

You could say that my roots started and ended in Nayarit.

PROS
It would help to share information with other members from Nayarit. Currently, all the information I have on Nayarit is my own 3 year research with no help.

CONS
Current members with no ties to Nayarit or Colima may not be able to help new members with research or information.Website would have a lot of postings with no replies.

I would still vote yes for Nayarit because of my ties.

Ruben Rojas Delgado

I agree with the other posts. There is a strong historical connection between Jalisco and Nayarit, as well as Colima if you have ancestors in what was then the provincia de Avalos. I am tempted to say yes, however, this would broaden the area in this group, and you would have to think about other areas in Michoacan, Guanajuato, Durango and other states closely related to our focus states. It's a tough question, but I would vote yes on Nayarit and Colima, even though I don't have ancestors on this states.

I'm sure in the long run the addition of new members from these states will benefit the group.

Steve

Considering Nayarit was carved out of Jalisco, I'd say it's a good idea. In a recent article, I wrote:

At the time of Mexican independence, Nayarit was part of Jalisco. In November 1824, the political constitution of the State of Jalisco was established, dividing the territory into eight districts. Nayarit was called the Seventh District of Jalisco. On August 7, 1867, after the defeat of the French invasion, President Benito Juárez separated Nayarit from Jalisco, declaring it to be the "Military District of Tepic," under the jurisdiction of the government.On December 12, 1884, by order of Article 43 of the Federal Constitution, Nayarit was elevated to the status of a territory separate from Jalisco. This federal territory was divided into twenty municipios. In February 1917 the Territory of Nayarit was elevated to the status of a free and sovereign state under the provisions of the Constitution of 1917. The state was called Nayarit in honor of Nayar or Nayarit, the 16th century Cora governor who had defied the Spaniards.

Late last year, I put together a little discussion of their indigenous history, and some Jalisco lines I have traced did originate in Nayarit.

http://latinola.com/story.php?story=12440

So, I vote "Yes" to Nayarit.

John P. Schmal

Nayarit. I'm biased. My father was born in Nayarit, eventually crossing border. Serving in the military in WWII , he became a US citizen. As well, my maternal Abuelita Clemencia Lizarraga was born in Nayarit. At present my paternal ancestors date back to 1797, and my maternal line to 1684.

As a kid I had the good fortune to visit with my father the ranchito where he and several of his siblings were born.

I hope that Nuestros Ranchos will seriously consider including Nayarit. I made this request several years ago, since I believe that historically speaking this area was part of the geographical /political art of Colonial Mexico.

Paul

Paul J Gomez
Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 29, 2014, at 6:59 PM, "Joseph Puentes" wrote:
>
>
>
> What are the good reasons and bad reasons to open up the group to the states
> of Nayarit and Colima? Can y’all generate some discussion on that topic?
> Let’s hear the pros and cons.
>
>
>
> Do you think that opening the group to those doing research in Nayarit and
> Colima would suddenly open the group to vast numbers of new members? Would
> the discussions wildly go into topics that would alienate the current
> membership? There are many members of the group that rarely speak out.
> Please consider stepping into this discussion. I’d like feel the groups
> pulse on this thought.
>
>
>
> ¿Cuáles son las razones buenas y las razones malas para abrir el grupo a los
> Estados de Nayarit y Colima? ¿Ustedes pueden generar alguna discusión sobre
> ese tema? Escuchemos los ideas buenas/malas de ese tema.
>
>
>
> ¿Crees que si abrimos el grupo a aquellos que hacen investigación en Nayarit
> y Colima abriría grandes cantidades de nuevos miembros al grupo? ¿Las
> discusiones iría en temas que podría alienar a los miembros actuales? Hay
> muchos miembros del grupo que rara vez hablan. Por favor considere entrar en
> esta discusión. Me gustaría sentir el pulso del grupo en este pensamiento
>
>
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph Puentes
>
> Clean@h2opodcast.com
>
> http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

There is book entitled "Haciendas of Mexico," published in 1886 that names the principal haciendas by state, along with the owner/proprietor, and the town where it is located.

The introduction is in English, and the rest of the book is just tables.

The book can be downloaded as a pdf from www.archive.org.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

There's a Jabonera in the municipio of San Juan de Los Lagos, population: 9

It's mapped here: http://www.microrregiones.gob.mx/catloc/contenido.aspx?refnac=140730282

This is a very handy website: http://www.microrregiones.gob.mx/catloc/Default.aspx

I posted this website earlier this year, which I prefer above all the other map search engines because this lists any and all populated areas in Mexico whether they are still populated or no longer active. I also like it because you search by name, rather than hunt around on a map. Maybe I'll make a separate post for it because it really is helpful.

This government site is excellent for looking up the locations of towns & ranchos including those *that may no longer exist*. You can find non-existent or very small, unmapped towns/ranchos by clicking first on the name of the state, then municipality, then on the name of the town/rancho you're looking for, and whether it's currently active or no longer inhabited, it will be listed and shown on a Google-type map including satellite imagery.

If you can't find a rancho in one municipality, remember local government lines have changed over the years from then to now, and while any town may have been in one municipality back when, it could be in a different one now, so look also in adjoining districts as well.

"Jabonera" can be a reference to what is made in the area, and in that area of Jalisco, I think soap is a concentrated industry. I think you find that all over Mexico, i.e., places called El Molino probably had a mill in the area/hacienda.

Sandra Velez

Luis Arturo Huerta Rodrìguez

Hi Alice!

There is another ranch named "La Jabonera" in Nochistlán, Zac. About 80km from San Juan. My mother was born there.

Now you say it, I realize I hadn't investigate what signifies the name, I live in México and for me it may signify soap store or soap factory more than soapdish.

Greetings!!

Hello Alice,

I do a lot of research for Lagos de Moreno which is where my family is
from. I don't remember ever seeing the hacienda La Jabonera mentioned in
records from Lagos de Moreno and it isn't in the books I have or PDF
documents I have. I don't see it as being in Lagos de Moreno on Google Maps
or PueblosAmerica http://mexico.pueblosamerica.com/jalisco/lagos-de-moreno/
What did you use for the search in Google Maps? I have only seen La
Jabonera mentioned in the records for San Juan de Los Lagos and
PueblosAmerica
http://mexico.pueblosamerica.com/jalisco/san-juan-de-los-lagos/

I have asked cousins and uncles that still live in Lagos where certain
ranches are but they aren't familiar with all of them, even though they
live there, which is why I had to use the books, PDFs, and PueblosAmerica
site.

Lagos de Moreno and San Juan de Los Lagos share a border and sometimes
people that lived in one city had land in the adjacent city. I do know that
my father, aunts, and uncles from Lagos de Moreno would visit haciendas in
San Juan de los Lagos. I went to one of them myself that is in San Juan de
los Lagos but owned by a family from Lagos de Moreno. I would also go to
another hacienda that I always thought was in Lagos de Moreno but is
actually in Unión de San Antonio according to the PDF documents which are
from the goverrnment. According to PueblosAmerica it is in Lagos de Moreno.
Either way I do remember very long drives to get to the hacienda. It was
owned by my aunt's husband and his brothers. Most of them live in Lagos and
León but some live or lived elsewhere such as Mexico D.F.

I uploaded the PDF files I have. They are searchable with CTRL+F and typing
Jabonera. Make sure you zoom to 100% or 150% on the ones that say Carta.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/a1i25ynt9vy5r6d/LAGOSDEMORENO_CARTA.pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nmonfx41cya65ex/SANJUANDELOSLAGOS_CARTA.pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vu3b1gw752jwwpl/Ranchos%2C%20small%20towns%20…

The Campos surname comes from some of the Martín del Campo family changing
the surname to Campos. I have Martin del Campo ancestors and two great
uncles married women with the Martin del Campo surname.

The number of people that confuse Lagos de Moreno and San Juan de los Lagos
is enormous. Most people are familiar with San Juan de Los Lagos because of
the virgin of San Juan.

Saludos,

Armando
On Aug 21, 2014 11:54 AM, "alice wissing" wrote:

> Some of the names of the ranches in Jalisco are rather interesting. My
> grandfather was identified as being from La Jabonera, San Juan de los Lagos
> when he married. I looked up the definition of La Jabonera and it means
> soapdish. I then saw on Google Maps that there was a La Jabonera in San
> Juan de Los Lagos, as well as Lagos de Moreno. This left me confused,
> because an aunt once told me our Campos family had land in Lagos de Moreno,
> yet christening/wedding records say La Jabonera, San Juan de Los Lagos. Did
> the people of Lagos de Moreno use the church in San Juan de Los Lagos?
> Also, does anybody know why a ranch would have a name like soapdish? I
> would love to figure out which is the right ranch and view it using Google
> Maps.
>
> Alice

There is another Jabonera near my parents hometown of El Bajio de San Jose, Jalisco which is in the municipio de Encarnacion de Diaz. My Dad told me that they used to make soap there and that is why it was named Jabonera.

Austin Perez

I have MA Delores Franco Campos who was baptized (1880) and married (1898) at San Juan Batista in San Juan de Los Lagos. I don't know if this is the same Campos family, or if it's of any help to you, but I do have siblings, parents, etc. all in San Juan de Los Lagos with some documents from the church records archived by Family Search.

You can contact me directly if you wish. Alejandro
AJB

I have relatives from Nayarit too. I would be in favor of including them.
If we're consider expanding could we consider other regions too?

Paige

Joseph,

Originally, in the early colonial days of Nueva España, the Nueva Galicia
region, encompassed the current day states of Nayarit, Colima,, Jalisco,
Zacatecas and Aguascalientes.

Alicia

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Joseph Puentes wrote:

>
>
> An applicant to the group says this:
>
>
>
> "La Yesca municipality in Nayarit which was a part of Jalisco in the 19th
> century"
>
>
>
> Can someone please send me a list of places that historically were part of
> Jalisco, Zacatecas, and/or Aguascalientes but are in other states now?
>
>
>
> Thanks for your help
>
>
>
> Joseph
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph Puentes
>
> Clean@h2opodcast.com
>
> http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html
>
>
>
>
>

Joseph,
What we know today as Jalisco, Zacatecas and Aguascalientes did not exist during colonial times. The ideology of political divisions known as states was introduced well after the Mexican independence. For example, the state of Aguascalientes was incorporated into the "Intendencia de Zacatecas," Jalisco was known as "Intendencia de Guadalajara," etc. These new political divisions were a result of the many "Reformas Borbónicas" of the late XVIII century.
The "Reinos" under the Habsburg (Reino de Nueva Galicia, Nuevo León, Méjico, etc.) consisted of Alcaldía Mayores which were replaced with the Borbón Intendencias, later replaced with "Departamentos" under Agustín I up to Maximilian I. Mexico eventually adopted modernizing into the United States of Mexico. Something that many people are not aware is that the Alcaldía Mayores and Intendencias had provinces within them, political sub-divisions if you will. Some of the ones that pertain to our area were the Alcaldía Mayor de Aguascalientes and Xuchipila. A well known province of that day was "La provincia de Avalos.
Hope this sheds some light,
Daniel Méndez de Torres Camino

I don't know about other states, but regarding Nayarit, it was part of the state of Jalisco and before that Nueva Galicia for centuries. It became a separate state less than 100 years ago, on January 26, 1917. Colima was also part of Jalisco, but became a state back in the 19th century.

I vote YES to Colima. Southern Jalisco belonged to the XVI century Province
of Colima. Both regions have tight historical links, still strong today.
Lots of families were moving around these territories. It is the case of
mine.

i wonder if your madera are related to the ones in colotlan

The rest is mostly about the stuff related to the inheritance given to the church I think it goes like this (the double ?? symbol are for words I can't make or I am not quite sure what they are), also I add some commas. I think it is "pesos" but I am not 100 per cent sure.

"En el pueblo de Nochistlan en doce dias del mes de noviembre de mill y seisisentos y settenta y tres años aviendo resivido los santos sacramentos murio Juan Duran español vezino de esta feligrecia dueño de esta, de edad de mas de ochenta años cassado con Regina de Aguayo, otorgo testamento ?? esta en honce deste presente mes y año ante Melchor de Sandobal (theniente de) Alcalde Mayor. se manda enterrar ensta parroquia ?? le enterre Con Missa Cantada de Requien de cuerpo presente, consu vijilia, deja mandas por cosas y dies pesos? a la Capilla de el Sanctissimo Sacramento de este dhicho pueblo, y un novenario de Missa y resados por sus almas, enesta Parrochia, deja por Albaceas a ?? ?? Y a Andres Duran y Nicolas Duran sus hijos, y por sus herederos a los dichos y otros hijos que deja. y pa que conste lo firme."

hope it helps

RJ Quiralte

Linda,

I think what happened is some time after certain longer films were indexed, familysearch reorganized and cut up some of the films into parts (check to see if those films have parte 1, parte 2, etc in their titles now).

What I had to do is some math: Parte 1 films should match Katy's numbers, but when you get to the end of parte 1, and go to the film with the parte 2 title, you have to subtract the image number that was indexed from the first number on the new film page.

See this index:
http://guadalajaradispensas.tumblr.com/post/80839559488/matrimonios-185…

Now, part 3 is is in reference to Katy's site, not familysearch, so disregard that for now.

We'll look for the first index, on image 904, Jesus Serrano. That obviously does not match the film linked here:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18429-39494-12?cc=1874591&wc…

The film is 628 images long, with the link taking you to image 2. Notice the first image indexed at Katy's site starts on 890. Subtract 889 (because the film link starts on image 2, not on image 1) from the original index image number, 904. That gives you 15. Type 15 into the image box. and now you are at the record that was formerly on image 904, Jesus Serrano.

I hope this is clear-- this isn't for all of the films, just the ones familysearch changed, but it is irritating. If you need help with a specific record, email me through Nuestros Ranchos and I'll help you.

Rosalinda

For the progenitor of this family I have seen both Sancho Ruiz de Esparza, spouse Juana Zariquiegui, as well as Simon Ruiz de Esparza, and spouse Graciana de Vici.

From both of these are similar lines of descent to Lope Ruiz de Esparza of Aguascalientes. The posted genealogies have either secondary references (some links for which are broken), or no references at all.

Is there any available documentation for this family?

Apparently related to this family (Sancho Ruiz de Esparza) is the little booklet "La Familia de Atondo y la Genealogia de S. Francisco de Javier)" published in Pamplona in 1920. Do a google search for "La Familia de Atondo" and you can down load the pdf. Sancho Ruiz de Esparza, according to this booklet, is the great-great-grandfather of St. Francisco de Javier.

There is nothing on the male descendants of Sancho Ruiz de Esparza in this booklet.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Jorge Gonzalez esparza. recientemente estuve en pamplona para festejar las fiestas de san fermin y me llamo la atencio ver con frequencia el apellido esparza pordoquier. carniceria esparza. etc. tambien las tradiciones antiguas como los famosos churros que son deliciosos y sin duda la fiesta taurina. El apellido esparza es navarro. Por cierto el sello de el apellido es rojo y blanco con un lobo. muy interesante

Your 9th great-grandmother María Lorenza Tiscareño de Huerta was baptized 31 Aug 1683 at Parroquia de la Asunción in Aguascalientes. She was 15 days old when baptized, and thus born on 16 Aug 1683. Lorenza was the daughter of Francisco Tiscareño, mestizo, and María González de Huerta, also mestiza. Her father Francisco Tiscareño was the natural son of Capt. Juan Tiscareño with an unmarried woman (name unknown), probably a local indian because Francisco was said to be a mestizo. Francisco was born out of wedlock while Juan Tiscareño was still single, before he married Isabel Romo de Vivar. This is explained in the following excerpt from Juan Tiscareño's final will and testament:

"iten declaro para el descargo de mi conciencia que antes del Primero matrimonio tube un hijo natural llamado Francisco Tiscareño hijo de mujer soltera i libre para contraer matrimonio sin impedimentos declarolo asi para que conste i en esta conformidad mando se le de del remaniente del quinto de mis bienes por uso de alimento que assi le dejo i permite la lei Real de todo por averme servido mucho y aiudadome a ganar parte del caudal que assi he tenido de que he dado a mis hijos lo que llebo expressado..."

Nicolás Gómez was the son of Blas Gómez and María de Silva. No additional information about them. I have two daughters for Nicolás Gómez and Lorenza Tiscareño: 1) María de los Dolores, b. 1711 and 2) María Josepha b. 1714. What information do you have on Marina and Antonia?

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----
From: casavolver@lpbroadband.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 9:18 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Lorenza Tiscareno

I have my 9th great grandmother, Lorenza Tescareno born about 1685 and married to Nicolas Gomes. Their daughters are Marina, Antonia, Maria de los Dolores and Josepha born in Pinos, Zacatecas in the early 1700's. If anyone has iinfo on this line I would greatly appreciate any help.