Nuestros Ranchos Site

Hello Erik,

I read all of your posts with great interest, but those featuring Toribio Hernández de Arellano especially catch my attention. I have a short list of ancestors who seem to appear over and over again in our family tree, and Toribio Hernández de Arellano and Isabel de Mendoza are two of those individuals.

Thank you for sharing your research. I know it means a great deal to many people, myself included, and I truly appreciate the time and effort that goes into it.

Thank you again,

Travis

Saludos Erik,

Excellent work Erik. I do believe that you hit the bull’s eye with the ancestry of Toribio Hernandez Arellano.  

Congratulations on this great work! 
Rick A. Ricci

Check out the sources listed on the profile for Francisco Torres Montelongo on FamilySearch. Although a birth or baptismal record isn't listed, a quick check shows that the birth records of two of his children, Francisco and Marcelino, mention the names of their paternal and maternal grandparents.

Could someone help me with the spanish on this? Seems to be the will of Hernando Plascencia Maldonado. Starts the page before. I was curious who is Ana Manrique on this page. Thanks!

Protocolos : Guadalajara. Notarial Records 1865

I also just found this, but occuring in the 1800's. Is it a rewrite of an old document? If so, we learn alot of Plascencia history, bottom right.

Protocolos : Guadalajara. Notarial Records 1865

Using FamilySearch's new AI tool, I found a document of interest to the family. I don't understand much but it seems to be about Juan Plascencia Maldonado, father of legitimate son Miguel and natural children Baltazar Plascencia Maldonado and Maria Ulloa. Juan is the son of Hernando Plascencia Maldonado and Maria Ulloa. Witnesses include Geronimo Aramburu and Gonzalo Yanez del Monte. 

Protocolos : Guadalajara. Notarial Records 1664

Good job to everybody for putting together the first rudimentary analysis of the Plascencia family of Cuquío. Great idea Alex in creating a list of documentary evidence in the Dispensas...and Kudos to you Carlos Peredo for providing additional info on the very early Plascencia family members.

However I am confused. Very confused!!! These sets of dispensations and their data seriously call into question what we had taken for granted and assumed as truth. At first the initial dispensation had an “invisible” Tronco and set forth this summary:

Tronco . . . . . . . . . . . . . [??? & ???]
. . . . Pedro de Plasencia . . . .1 . . . . . Juan de Aceves
. . . Mariana de Plasencia . . . 2 . . . . Teresa de Aceves
. . . . Maria de Plasencia . . . . 3 . . . Teresa de Hermosillo
. . . . . . Rita Gutiérrez . . . . . .4 . . . . . Juana Hermosillo

But it did not provide a Tronco - the name(s) of the common ancestor(s). At first, this led me to assume that since the “known” mother of Juan de Aceves was (we thought) María González-Rubio, daughter of Francisco Gutiérrez-Rubio I and Anna González-Florida I. If she was the mother of Juan de Aceves, then naturally she must also be the mother of Pedro Plascencia. So then this led me to conclude María González-Rubio was married 1st to Carlos de Aceves Rascón and 2nd to Pedro de Plascencia, “el Viejo”. From this second marriage was born Pedro de Plascencia, “el Mozo”, who married Mariana de Maldonado.

But is this really so?

The new sources for the Plascencia genealogical reconstruction raise new questions and doubts, but clearly tell us that there is an Aceves connection somehow.

Alex Mercado very diligently created a list of 10 marriage dispensations which connect members of the Plascencia family tree. In the Dispensa #1, that of Juan Becerra and María de los Dolores Plascencia, I have taken the liberty of transcribing the most important and salient portions of their 1724 dispensation, which read as follows:
_________________________________________

“Cuquío, y Marzo 9 de 1724 a.s
[...]
Juan Beserra Mestiso vesino de dies años de esta feligrecía, hijo lexítimo de Manuel beserra y de Melchora de los Reyes ... tengo tratado y asentado el casarme según orden de Nra. S.ta Madre iglecia con María de los Dolores Mestisa Besina de esta feligrecía, hija legítima de Nicolás de placiencia defunto y de Manuela Sisneros ... tengo parentesco de consanguinidad en tersero con quarto grado, y por otra parte tengo el de afinidad en segundo grado por aber conocido carnalmente como hombre frágil y miserable a una parienta de la dha. María de los Dolores en segundo grado ... dos ympedim.tos que entre ellos resulta de consanguinidad y de afinidad, por lo que toca al de consanguin.d que por razón declara el pret.so de que la dha. pret.sa y Melchora de los Reyes difunta madre lex.a que fue de el pret.so fueron primas segundas, porque la dha. pret.sa la engendró Nicolás de Placencia difunto y a dha. Melchora difunta madre de el pret.so la engendró Augustín de Placen.a y dhos Nicolás y Augustín de Placencia fueron primos hermanos; porque a dho Nicolás de Placen.a difunto padre de la pret.sa lo parió Luysa de Placen.a difunta y a dho. Aug.n de Placen.a Abuelo de el pret.so lo parió María Anna de Placen.a difunta; y dhas Luyza y María Anna de Placen.a difuntas fueron hermanas. Este es el ympedim.to que entre los suso dhos. resulta ... declaró el dho. Ju.o Bezerra pret.so que conoció carnalm.te a una prima herm.a de la dha. María de los Dolores pret.sa ... declaró tener veinte y dos a.s de edad y no saber firmar....

En el Pu.o de Cuquío, en nuebe de Marzo de mil set.os y veinte y quatro a.s ... presentó por testigo ... a Manuel Bezerra mestizo vezino de esta felig.a de Cuquío, Padre leg.o de el dho pret.so ... el dho. pret.so nació en la felig.a de Tecpatitlán y ella en esta dha de Cuq.o ... que sabe que son los dhos. Ju.o Bezerra y María de lod Dolores pret.sos parients entre sí de sangre porque sabe que la dha. pret.sa y dha. Melchora de los Reyes difunta madre de el pret.so eran primas segundas porque a dha. pret.sa la engendró Nicolás de Plac.a difunto y a dha. a Melchora de los Reyes madre de el pret.so la engendró Augustín de Placen.a y dhos. Nicolás y Augustín de Placencia eran primos hermanos; porque a dho. Nicolás parió Luysa de Placen.a difunta abuela de la pret.sa y a dho. Aug.n lo parió María Anna de Placen.a bisabuela de el pret.so y dhos. Luysa y María Anna eran hermanas de estas que no sabe el que declara quienes fueron sus Padres ... Declaró de edad quarenta a.s y no saber firmar....

... testigo ... Matheo de Placencia español vezino de este dho. Pu.o ... Dixo: que conoce a Ju.o Bezerra y María de los Dolores pret.sos en esto desde que nacieron que son vezinos de esta felig.a de Cuquío dede pequeños sin que de ella ayan hecho aus.a alg.a notable nunca, que él nació en la felig.a de Tecpatitlán y ella en esta dha de Cuq.o que son criados en ella que son mestizos e hijos leg.mos el pret.so de Manuel Bezerra y de Melchora de los Reyes ya difunta y la pret.sa de Nicolás de Placen.a ya difunto y de Manuela Zisneros: que sabe que el dho. pret.so es sobrino de la dha. pret.sa porque el dho. Nicolás de Plac.a P.e de la suso dha. digo porque la suso dicha y dha Melchora madre de el suso dicho eran primas segundas; porque dho. Nicolás de Plac.a P.e de la pret.sa y Aug.n de Placen.a abuelo de el pret.so y padre de dha. Melchora fueron primos hermanos: porque a dho. Nicolás padre de la pret.sa parió Luysa de Placen.a difunta y a dho. Aug.n de Placen.a abuelo de el pret.so lo parió María Anna de Placen.a difunta, y dhas. Luysa Abuela de dha. pret.sa y María Anna bisabuela de el pret.so eran hermanos, hijos lex.mos de Pedro de Placen.a el viejo y de María Anna de Azebez, ya difuntos ... Declaró tener setenta a.s de edad y no saber firmar....

... testigo ... Ju.o Gil mestizo vesino de esta felig.a ... Declaró de edad treinta y dos a.s y no saber firmar....”

[Fuente: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18417-36978-25?cc=1874591&wc…]
_________________________________________

That’s most of it right there. And in all of this repetitious verbiage of all four statements of the common relationship, none of them mentioned the common ancestors - except for one - the oldest of the witnesses. Mateo de Plascencia, age 70 in 1724 (1724-70=1654), essentially told us this, “Luysa Abuela de dha. pret.sa y María Anna bisabuela de el pret.so eran hermanas, hijas lex.mas de Pedro de Placen.a el viejo y de María Anna de Azebez, ya difuntos”.:

[1724]
Tronco . . . Pedro de Plascencia, “el Viejo”, & Ana María de Aceves
. . . Mariana de Plascencia . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . Luisa de Plascencia
. . . Agustín de Plascencia . . . . . . .2 . . . . . . . Nicolás de Plascencia
. . . Melchora de los Reyes . . . . . . 3 . . . María de los Dolores Plascencia
. . . . . . Juan Becerra . . . . . . . . . . .4 . . . . . . . . . . . [la pretensa]
. . . . . . . [el pretenso] . . . . . . . .

So...Comparing this previous with the initial one already mentioned:

[1700]
Tronco . . . . . . . . . . . . . [??? & ???]
. . . . Pedro de Plasencia . . . .1 . . . . . Juan de Aceves
. . . Mariana de Plasencia . . . 2 . . . . Teresa de Aceves
. . . . Maria de Plasencia . . . . 3 . . . Teresa de Hermosillo
. . . . . . Rita Gutiérrez . . . . . .4 . . . . . Juana Hermosillo

As has already been stated by Mr. Mercado, “We know that Pedro and Mariana of Dispensa #4 are the children of Pedro de Plasencia, el Viejo and Mariana de Aceves; so the Pedro Plasencia who is brother to Juan Aceves is Pedro de Plasencia, el Viejo. Because Pedro de Plasencia, el Viejo’s wife’s name is Aceves, it is my opinion that “hermano” used in the original dispensa is to be interpreted as brother-in-law. So I believe Juan Aceves and Pedro de Plasencia, el Viejo are not siblings but Juan Aceves and Mariana Aceves are actual siblings.” So this dispensation has potentially incorrectly identified someone.

In the 1700 dispensa, were Pedro Plascencia and Juan de Aceves full brothers, half brothers, or brothers-in-law? The right answer to this question will be ground-shaking in transforming our understanding of the Plascencia, Aceves, and Gutiérrez-Rubio families.

In the 1724 dispensa, Pedro de Plascencia, “el Viejo”, & Ana María de Aceves were explicitly named as the tronco. How was Ana María de Aceves related to Carlos de Aceves and Juan de Aceves? But what if that that is not right? What if the witness got Ana María de Aceves wrong? What if this dispensation has potentially incorrectly identified someone? What if something is missing and somehow they all really fit in? What if......?

I really don’t know what to think at the moment other than somewhere in these dispensas there is a mistake or a misunderstanding about the correct family relationships. Something is missing.

Good genealogy requires methodical patience, a good eye for detail, and a a proper investigation of an entire family over several generations. This requires pain-staking work and an honest approach to first-hand text analysis, in particular Marriage Dispensations, because of the level of detail they contain hidden all throughout the several pages. Looks like these family lines are not going to reveal their centuries-long secrets easily.

SFHL

Hola Jorge Luis y estimados colegas primos,

También yo he estudiado esta familia y las dispensas mencionadas, ya como un año. Estas dispensas, que Alex Mercado organizó (¡Gracias!), son enredosas y difíciles de trabajar. Según mis datos, análisis de las dispensas, generaciones actuales y fechas, he determinado que María González, hija de Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio y de Ana González Florida I, estuvo casada dos veces. Esta es mi hipótesis, aun no comprobada, pero con sentido lógico. Es posible que esté equivocado, pero quien sabe. Según mi criterio, pienso que la teoría es correcta.

Háganse estas preguntas, ¿si Carlos de Aceves y Pedro de Plascencia fueron hermanos o parientes muy cercanos (o la misma persona como algunos creen), por qué la descendencia de Carlos de Aceves no usó variaciones de Plascencia? ¿Y viceversa, por qué los descendientes de Pedro de Plascencia no combinaron el apellido Aceves con el suyo? No hay documentación de intercambio entre las dos familias.

Yo creo que doña María primero estuvo casada con Carlos de Aceves y en segundas nupcias con Pedro de Plascencia, el viejo. Esto lo digo con cautela porque no todas las dispensas mencionan a los esposos o las esposas de las generaciones. Y parece que algunas de las mujeres tuvieron hijos naturales, porque perpetuaron su apellido materno - cosa que dificulta.

Es necesario precisar la cronología de estos individuos para mejor entendimiento: María González nació cerca de 1575 y tuvo que haberse casado algo joven – digamos a los 14 o 15 años – cosa que no era nada raro en aquellos tiempos. No sabemos con precisión la vida de Carlos de Aceves (cuando nació, cuando murió, quienes eran sus padres…nada), pero parece que nomás tuvieron un hijo único conocido: Juan de Aceves. Este Juan de Aceves parece haber nacido en 1590-1591, en Jalostotitlán (Juanacatlán?). No hay prueba que hubo una Mariana, hija de Carlos de Aceves. ¿O sí?

Pero lo raro es que Juan de Aceves está en primer grado con Pedro de Plascencia en una dispensa clave…y como consta la documentación, “fueron bisnietas de dos hermanos que lo fueron Pedro de Placencia y Juan de Aceves”. Después de revisar edades, cuentas, años, generaciones, matrimonios y bautismos, me di cuenta que la primera generación de estos Plascencias nació entre 1600 y 1630, en Cuquío.

María González (o Gutiérrez) tuvo un total de siete (7) hijos que he documentado hasta hoy: uno del primer matrimonio y seis del segundo matrimonio.
_____________________________________

María González (alias: María Gutiérrez & María Rubio) Nota: María González Rubio o Gutiérrez Rubio, casada en primeras nupcias con Carlos Muñoz de Aceves-Rascón, patriarca de la familia Aceves; y en segundas nupcias con Pedro de Plascencia, "El Viejo", patriarca de la familia Plascencia de Cuquío. Nació: ca. 1574 en Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México Se desconoce donde y cuando falleció. Padre: Francisco Gutiérrez Rubio Madre: Ana González Florida I

*PRIMERAS NUPCIAS*
.. +Carlos Muñoz de Aceves (alias: Carlos de Aceves) Nació: ca. 1570 en la Ciudad de México, México Se casó: ca. 1589 en Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México Se desconoce donde y cuando falleció.

1. Juan de Aceves Nota: Don Juan de Aceves, español; originario y vecino de la feligresía de Jalostotitlán; hijo de don Carlos Muñoz de Aceves y de doña María González; celebró nupcias con doña Beatriz de Hermosillo; patriarcas de la familia Aceves de Los Altos de Jalisco. Nació: 1590 en Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México Se desconoce donde y cuando falleció.
..... +Beatriz de Hermosillo Nota: Doña Beatriz de Hermosillo, española; originaria y vecina de la feligresía de Jalostotitlán; hija de don Juan González de Hermosillo y de doña María Muñoz; celebró nupcias con don Juan de Aceves, patriarca de la familia Aceves de Los Altos de Jalisco. Nació: ca. 1594 en Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México Se casó: ca. 1614 en Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México Se desconoce donde y cuando falleció. Padre: Juan González de Hermosillo Madre: Ana-María Muñoz

**SEGUNDAS NUPCIAS**
.. + Pedro de Plascencia, "El Viejo" Nació: ca. 1575 Se casó: 1600 - 1605 en Jalostotitlán, Jalisco, México Falleció: Se desconoce
2. Pedro de Plascencia, "El Mozo" Nació: ca. 1605 en Jalostotitlán o Cuquío, Jalisco, México Se desconoce donde y cuando falleció.
..... + Mariana (María Ana) de Oviedo-Maldonado Nació: ca. 1600 en Cuquío, Jalisco, México Se casó: ca. 1618 en Cuquío, Jalisco, México Se desconoce donde y cuando falleció.
3. María Plascencia Nació: ca. 1605 en Jalostotitlán o Cuquío, Jalisco, México Se desconoce donde y cuando falleció.
4. Mariana de Plascencia Nació: ca. 1615 en Jalostotitlán o Cuquío, Jalisco, México Se desconoce donde y cuando falleció.
..... +N. N. Nació: ca. 1610 en Cuquío, Jalisco, México Se casó: ca. 1635 en Cuquío, Jalisco, México Falleció: Se desconoce
5. Elena de Plascencia Nació: ca. 1620 en Jalostotitlán o Cuquío, Jalisco, México Se desconoce donde y cuando falleció.
6. Luisa de Plascencia Nació: ca. 1625 en Jalostotitlán o Cuquío, Jalisco, México Se desconoce donde y cuando falleció.
_____________________________________

Me parece que María González (María Gutiérrez) residió en dos lugares distintos durante sus dos matrimonios.

Es muy importante reiterar lo contenido de la dispensa, “Por haber sido Rita Gutiérrez y Juana de Hermosillo […] bisnietas de dos hermanos que lo fueron Pedro de Placencia y Juan de Aceves”. Aquí los llaman hermanos, pero sería más correcto llamarlos medios-hermanos, pos ser hijos de la misma madre, pero de padres distintos.

Pedro de Plasencia 1. Juan de Aceves (These two were HALF-BROTHERS!!!!)
Mariana de Plasencia 2. Teresa de Aceves
Maria de Plasencia 3. Teresa de Hermosillo
Rita Gutierrez 4. Juana Hermosillo

In summary, María González (María Gutiérrez) is the Tronco/Trunk of this particular lineage. She was married first to Carlos de Aceves, about 1589-1590, and had very few children…only one documented son, Juan de Aceves (married to Beatriz de Hermosillo). There is no evidence they had a daughter called Mariana (Maria Anna) de Aceves. It is unknown when Carlos de Aceves died, but probably before 1600.

After the death of her first husband, María González (María Gutiérrez) remarried…to Pedro de Plascencia, with whom she had at least six children. It is evident that María relocated from Jalostotitlán to Cuquío sometime after 1600-1605, because that is where her progeny came to reside. Evidence suggests that this was due to family connections. María’s daughter-in-law, Beatriz de Hermosillo, as sister of Juan González de Hermosillo II (both children of Juan González de Hermosillo I), who owned vast tracts of land in the jurisdictions of Jalostotitlán and Juanacatlán. The parish of Cuquío was carved out of lands from both encomiendas. Through purchase, matrimonial alliances, and inheritance, the Hermosilllo family acquired land in Cuquío, Tepatitlán, and neighboring parishes. It seems likely that after Carlos de Aceves’ death, María remarried and relocated to a new property in the parish of Cuquío…property she may have obtained from her father, one of her siblings, her deceased husband, her son, or daughter-in-law (through her dowry).

In other dispensas, we see Pedro de Plascencia (son of Pedro P. and María G.), one generation down, as the Tronco/trunk. By the way, who is this Mariana de Aceves/ Ana María de Aceves (aka Mariana de Oviedo)…there is an error here in the interpretation of the various individuals and names. Please note – María González/Gutiérrez is not the same person as Mariana de Aceves (aka Mariana de Oviedo). This confused Mariana, I believe, is María-Anna de Plascencia (Mariana Plascencia, daughter of Pedro de Plascencia, el Viejo) or Mariana de Oviedo (Mariana Maldonado), wife of Pedro de Plascencia, “el mozo”. Through their marriage was created the compound surname Plascencia Maldonado or Plascencia y Maldonado in Cuquío.

For more info check “Retoños de España en la Nueva Galicia”, por Mariano González Leal, Tovo VI, Volumen 2 (Navarrete y Argote – Ramírez de Mendoza), pgs. 668-680, Capítulo “Plascencia-Maldonado”.

¿Qué opinan de todo esto? - What do you think about this?

Regards,
SFHL

I found another dispensa which may be relevant Diego Thoribio de Placencia marries Catalina de Placencia. This time Mariana's surname is Oviedo. I have no idea if this is Mariana Aceves.

I can tell you that I believe Pedro (younger) is the Pedro Placencia that Married Melchora de los Reyes Moscoso y Sandoval. I am making this connection based on:

• Pedro's (younger) first daughter being Luisa
• Luisa and Maria Anna Placencia were siblings (See first dispensa I posted)
• Pedro (younger) has a sister named Maria Anna Placencia see this dispensa Felis Mercado marries Francisca Efigenia Beserra
• Matheo de Placencia, witness, is also related to Pedro (younger) via Sagrada Mitra dispensa book 1751

I have never heard of the Trejo de Placencia family; Ill have to do some research on that. I was guessing this family is related to the Pedro de Placencia, founder of Guadalajara, simply based on how many times the name Pedro is used (I have found more Pedros related). In my experience with italian genealogy, names are repeated within the family.

Alex Mercado

I found a dispensa including a Pedro Placencia, father of a Maria Anna. The wife of Pedro is listed as Maria Anna Azebez (Aceves). Make your own conclusions; however I found this very interesting. I am also related to the Pedro Placencia and am working on his lineage.

Dispensa for Maria de los Dolores Placencia and Juan Becerra

I believe the Matheo Placencia making the declaration, may be Pedro's grandson through daughter Maria cited in Sagrada Mitra dispensa book number 1751.

Or I could be all wrong because I dont speak/read/write any Spanish.

Alex Mercado

Jorge,

El pasado verano que estuve en Guadalajara obtuve una copia de la dispensa de Mateo Ponce. Ya casi termino de paleografiar toda la dispensa. Si quiere te puedo enviarte una copia de la dispensa y la transcripcion. A mi me intereso este documento porque confirma que Francisco esposo de Juana de Lomelin tuvo un hijo natural, Baltazar Gutierrez.

Sergio Gutierrez

Hola, Daniel,

pues tengo la ligera sospecha de que tal ves tenemos los mismos antepasados, porque yo tengo Gutierrez, Hernandez, Aceves, Arias,Ybarra, Gonzalez, Ochoa, Navarro,Camarena, Esquivel,Castellanos, Arias Rubio, Estrada, Silva, y la  mayoria de ellos son de tepatitlan jalisco pero tambien hay de Atotonilco el alto, de Acatic jalisco y asi. y me encontre a unos este sabado pasado y era como de 1700 aproximadamente y escribian

Thepatitlan. en lugar de como nosotros lo conocemos y a los Jose los escribian Joseph, y bueno es un enredo porque se casaban entre primos Hermanos ,primos segundos, y luego a veses entre cunados asi que esta dificil , tenemos que estar seguros de quien es quien.

bueno me llamo Martha Gomez
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mendez de Camino"
To: "Patty Hoyos"
Sent: Tuesday, June 1, 2010 10:02:12 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] JALOSTOTITLÁN: Pedro Plascencia 1600 aprox. hermano de Juan de Aceves 1593 aprox.

Me da un sospecho que el apellido Plasencia proviene del lado de los Aceves, yaque el lado materno de los Rubio, Gonzalez Rubio estan documentado.
Daniel

> From: georgio_2386@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 16:52:39 -0500
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] JALOSTOTITLÁN: Pedro Plascencia 1600 aprox. hermano de Juan de Aceves 1593 aprox.
>
>
> Hola compañeros, alguno de ustedes sabe algo sobre la descendencia de Pedro Plascencia, que según un dispensa matrimonial de 1700 en Tepatitlán, menciona que es hermano de Juan de Aceves, marido de Beatriz de Hermosillo.
>
>  
>
> A continuación la dispensa tomada del libro de Luz Montejano:
>
>  
>
> Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jal. Julio 25 de 1700. Exp. 198.- Dispensa de cuarto grado de afinidad por cópula lícita por dos líneas.- Matheo Ponce, mestizo de 30 años de edad, vecino de esta jurisdicción de Thecpatitlán, viudo de Rita Gutiérrez; con Juana de Hermosillo, mestiza de 22 años de edad, vecina de esta jurisdicción, hija legítima de Francisco Jaramillo y de Theresa de Hermosillo.
> Declaración del pretenso: Porque Rita Gutiérrez, difunta, fue hija legítima de Baltasar Gutiérrez y de María de Placencia, y el dicho Baltasar, es hijo de Francisco Gutiérrez, y éste fué hijo de Leonor de Hermosillo, hermana de Beatriz de Hermosillo, bisabuela de la referida Juana de Hermosillo. Declaración de Joseph de Aceves, español de 46 años de edad, pariente de los pretensos: Por haber sido Rita Gutiérrez y Juana de Hermosillo, bisnietas de dos hermanas que lo fueron Leonor de Hermosillo y Beatriz de Hermosillo, de la cual fué hija Theresa de Aceves, y que ésta fué madre de Theresa de Hermosillo, y ésta madre de Juana de Hermosillo, y por lo que mira a Leonor de Hermosillo, sabe fué madre de Francisco Gutiérrez y éste fué padre de Baltasar Gutiérrez y éste es padre de Rita, difunta, y por otra línea Rita Gutiérrez y Juana de Hermosillo, fueron bisnietas de dos hermanos que lo fueron Pedro de Placencia y Juan de Aceves, y Pedro fué padre de Mariana de Placencia, y ésta fué madre de María de Placencia, madre de Rita Gutiérrez, y Juan de Aceves, fué padre de Theresa de Aceves, y ésta fue madre de Theresa de Hermosillo, y ésta es madre de Juana de Hermosillo. 10 fojas.  
>
>  
>
> Me interesa completar ésta rama, ya que yo desciendo de dicho matrimonio de Mateo Ponce y Juana Jaramillo.
>
> L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
> Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
> Tel.: 3781095311
> www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
>
>
>
>
>
>                                                
> _________________________________________________________________
> Enciende tu hotness con Hotmail
> www.hotmailhotness.com.mx

Me da un sospecho que el apellido Plasencia proviene del lado de los Aceves, yaque el lado materno de los Rubio, Gonzalez Rubio estan documentado.
Daniel

> From: georgio_2386@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 16:52:39 -0500
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] JALOSTOTITLÁN: Pedro Plascencia 1600 aprox. hermano de Juan de Aceves 1593 aprox.
>
>
> Hola compañeros, alguno de ustedes sabe algo sobre la descendencia de Pedro Plascencia, que según un dispensa matrimonial de 1700 en Tepatitlán, menciona que es hermano de Juan de Aceves, marido de Beatriz de Hermosillo.
>
>
>
> A continuación la dispensa tomada del libro de Luz Montejano:
>
>
>
> Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jal. Julio 25 de 1700. Exp. 198.- Dispensa de cuarto grado de afinidad por cópula lícita por dos líneas.- Matheo Ponce, mestizo de 30 años de edad, vecino de esta jurisdicción de Thecpatitlán, viudo de Rita Gutiérrez; con Juana de Hermosillo, mestiza de 22 años de edad, vecina de esta jurisdicción, hija legítima de Francisco Jaramillo y de Theresa de Hermosillo.
> Declaración del pretenso: Porque Rita Gutiérrez, difunta, fue hija legítima de Baltasar Gutiérrez y de María de Placencia, y el dicho Baltasar, es hijo de Francisco Gutiérrez, y éste fué hijo de Leonor de Hermosillo, hermana de Beatriz de Hermosillo, bisabuela de la referida Juana de Hermosillo. Declaración de Joseph de Aceves, español de 46 años de edad, pariente de los pretensos: Por haber sido Rita Gutiérrez y Juana de Hermosillo, bisnietas de dos hermanas que lo fueron Leonor de Hermosillo y Beatriz de Hermosillo, de la cual fué hija Theresa de Aceves, y que ésta fué madre de Theresa de Hermosillo, y ésta madre de Juana de Hermosillo, y por lo que mira a Leonor de Hermosillo, sabe fué madre de Francisco Gutiérrez y éste fué padre de Baltasar Gutiérrez y éste es padre de Rita, difunta, y por otra línea Rita Gutiérrez y Juana de Hermosillo, fueron bisnietas de dos hermanos que lo fueron Pedro de Placencia y Juan de Aceves, y Pedro fué padre de Mariana de Placencia, y ésta fué madre de María de Placencia, madre de Rita Gutiérrez, y Juan de Aceves, fué padre de Theresa de Aceves, y ésta fue madre de Theresa de Hermosillo, y ésta es madre de Juana de Hermosillo. 10 fojas.
>
>
>
> Me interesa completar ésta rama, ya que yo desciendo de dicho matrimonio de Mateo Ponce y Juana Jaramillo.
>
> L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
> Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
> Tel.: 3781095311
> www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Enciende tu hotness con Hotmail
> www.hotmailhotness.com.mx

Hola Jorge hice un esquema este momento de esta dispensa, que interesante!!!!!Pues que entiendo que Juan de Aceves que era hijo de Carlos Munoz de Acevesy Maria Rubio. Esta era hija de Francisco Gutierrez de la Vega y Ana GonzalezFlorida. y Francisco era hijo de Diego Gonzalez de la Vega, patriaca de losGonzalez Rubio, Gutierrez Rubio, etc. No se sabe mucho sobre este Carlos Munoz deAceves. Encuentre un nino bautizado de un Pedro de Placencia, en la Guadalajarapero no se si es el mismo, la epoca esta corecta.Nunca sabia que Juan Aceves tuvohermanos.
Juan Plasencia bautizado el 9 de enero de 1619 en Guadalajara hijo de Pedrode Plasencia y Ana Maria.

Daniel Mendez de Camino

> From: georgio_2386@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 16:52:39 -0500
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] JALOSTOTITLÁN: Pedro Plascencia 1600 aprox. hermano de Juan de Aceves 1593 aprox.
>
>
> Hola compañeros, alguno de ustedes sabe algo sobre la descendencia de Pedro Plascencia, que según un dispensa matrimonial de 1700 en Tepatitlán, menciona que es hermano de Juan de Aceves, marido de Beatriz de Hermosillo.
>
>
>
> A continuación la dispensa tomada del libro de Luz Montejano:
>
>
>
> Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jal. Julio 25 de 1700. Exp. 198.- Dispensa de cuarto grado de afinidad por cópula lícita por dos líneas.- Matheo Ponce, mestizo de 30 años de edad, vecino de esta jurisdicción de Thecpatitlán, viudo de Rita Gutiérrez; con Juana de Hermosillo, mestiza de 22 años de edad, vecina de esta jurisdicción, hija legítima de Francisco Jaramillo y de Theresa de Hermosillo.
> Declaración del pretenso: Porque Rita Gutiérrez, difunta, fue hija legítima de Baltasar Gutiérrez y de María de Placencia, y el dicho Baltasar, es hijo de Francisco Gutiérrez, y éste fué hijo de Leonor de Hermosillo, hermana de Beatriz de Hermosillo, bisabuela de la referida Juana de Hermosillo. Declaración de Joseph de Aceves, español de 46 años de edad, pariente de los pretensos: Por haber sido Rita Gutiérrez y Juana de Hermosillo, bisnietas de dos hermanas que lo fueron Leonor de Hermosillo y Beatriz de Hermosillo, de la cual fué hija Theresa de Aceves, y que ésta fué madre de Theresa de Hermosillo, y ésta madre de Juana de Hermosillo, y por lo que mira a Leonor de Hermosillo, sabe fué madre de Francisco Gutiérrez y éste fué padre de Baltasar Gutiérrez y éste es padre de Rita, difunta, y por otra línea Rita Gutiérrez y Juana de Hermosillo, fueron bisnietas de dos hermanos que lo fueron Pedro de Placencia y Juan de Aceves, y Pedro fué padre de Mariana de Placencia, y ésta fué madre de María de Placencia, madre de Rita Gutiérrez, y Juan de Aceves, fué padre de Theresa de Aceves, y ésta fue madre de Theresa de Hermosillo, y ésta es madre de Juana de Hermosillo. 10 fojas.
>
>
>
> Me interesa completar ésta rama, ya que yo desciendo de dicho matrimonio de Mateo Ponce y Juana Jaramillo.
>
> L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
> Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
> Tel.: 3781095311
> www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Enciende tu hotness con Hotmail
> www.hotmailhotness.com.mx

Manny,

There's always the possibility that Captain Francisco de Tavera and Nicolas Ramirez (Tavera) could've been brothers. They seem not to have been too separated in age.

HFA

Hello again, Manny! 

I was adjusting Diego Ysquierdo's birthdate (I guessed him "about 1621" which I know now to be impossible), and decided to check Ana's household in the 1669 Padron of Lagos because I remember seeing a Sanchez noted as living with her. 

After staring at the page for about a minute, I realized thanks to your new information, that almost the entire page deals with Ana's extended family group and the people living on their properties. A real eye opener!

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9K8-KY67

Manny, that is incredible. 

This new information impacts my tree (Tavera/Ysquierda/Ñagas) so thank you very much for sharing. 

Best,

Travis

Estimado Daniel,

Enhorabuena por tu estupenda labor y de corazón te doy gracias  por la facilidad que ofreces a los miembros del grupo y demás personas interesadas en la genealogía para efectuar investigaciones en el antiguo obispado de Michoacán.

Cordialmente,

Héctor Félix Aizcorbe

Glad you have been able to make a lot of progress.

Daniel, ¡muchas gracias! Este sitio ha sido un recurso invaluable que, con tus últimas mejoras, facilitar las investigaciónes de los documentos de los archivos del obispado de Valladolid.

Hello Daniel,

Thank you for the update and hard work you've placed into the Valladolid dispensas page. I've used it with success in the past and am grateful. 

Best,

Travis

Good day.

I have a copy of the 1610 manuscript from Santa María de los Lagos. I am currently co-authoring an article on it with Jorge Barba and will gladly share the article as soon as it is finished. The list of residents (67) was made on the 15th of February 1610 by request of regidor Juan de Burgos and certified by Lorenzo de Padilla Dávila, alcalde ordinario.

Best regards,

Erik Andrés Reynoso y Márquez

Travis,

In case you haven't already seen it, here is the link to the padrón for 1669. It is the earliest padrón I've seen for Santa María de los Lagos so far.

Good luck tracking down 1610.

Can anyone help me in getting a copy of that 700 manuscript from Guadalupe Diaz De Leon?

Hay alguien que me pueda ayudar en obtener las 700 páginas de Guadalupe Diaz De Leon?

Is there any chance I can get a copy of Guadalupe Diaz de Leon's manuscript, "Historia de Montesa"? I am a descendant of the Diaz de Leon family from La Montesa and would like to learn more about them.

Thank you!

Where might I get a copy of the manuscript? Searching for my wife's ancestors.
Grandfather was Ysidro Diaz De Leon who married (3) Apolonia Casas in Tlaltenango in 1845
Thank you,

Hola Felipe:

Disculpen, yo escribo en español, porque mi
ingles no es muy bueno, espero que no les moeste.

La razon de la presente es para agradecerte por
la informacion que nos brindas a todos nosotros
los investigadores de genealogia.

Si mi ingles no me engaña, nos dices sobre un
manuscrito titulado "Historia de Montesa" escrito
por Don Guadalupe Diaz de Leon en el año de
1895, y ofreces enviarlo escaneado via e.mail
o subirlo al servidor de "Nuestros Ranchos"
para su consulta, y yo por este medio te doy
las gracias y te pido que por favor a mi tambien
me hagas llegar una copia de este manuscrito
para tambien consultarlo.
Pero cuentanos mas al respecto, quien era
Don Guadalupe Diaz de Leon, y como llego a
tus manos ese interesantisimo manuscrito,
existe alguna relacion de esta persona con
el ex-rector de la Universidad de Guadalajara
Don Enrique Diaz de Leon?.

Saludos desde Guadalajara, Jalisco:

Tomas Alejandro Villegas Gomez.

2006/9/29, felipe reyes :
>
> Dear Cousin John:
>
> The origin of the Hacienda de "Los Campos" is wide mentioned in a titled
> manuscript " Historia de Montesa" by Don Guadalupe Diaz of Leon in the
> year
> of 1895. In fact it is an historical story of the origin of the family
> Diaz
> of Leon and other ancient surnames of Aguascalientes, Zacatecas and
> Jalisco.That valious story includes the years from 1620 to 1890 and
> contains
> information of incredible testimonial value. I have an "scanned" file .
> This document is 700 pages thick. Tell me if you need that I sen it to you
> E-mail or "upload it" the familiar archives of "Nuestros Ranchos", for
> permanent consultation of our genealogists cousins. Our causin Jorge
> Mendoza
> already is consulting it.
> Felipe reyes Romo
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Platica con tus amigos en linea con MSN Messenger
> http://messenger.t1msn.com.mx/
>

Felipe,
Do you have any genealogical info on the de los Reyes of Zacatecas?

I have an ancestress named Clare de los Reyes, who married Cristobal
Villavicencio/sencio/sensio in the 1750s in Jerez, Zacatecas. I have
no other information on her. Thanks. Marge:)
On Sep 29, 2006, at 11:48 AM, felipe reyes wrote:

> Dear Cousin John:
>
> The origin of the Hacienda de "Los Campos" is wide mentioned in a
> titled
> manuscript " Historia de Montesa" by Don Guadalupe Diaz of Leon in the
> year
> of 1895. In fact it is an historical story of the origin of the family
> Diaz
> of Leon and other ancient surnames of Aguascalientes, Zacatecas and
> Jalisco.That valious story includes the years from 1620 to 1890 and
> contains
> information of incredible testimonial value. I have an “scanned” file
> .
> This document is 700 pages thick. Tell me if you need that I sen it to
> you
> E-mail or "upload it" the familiar archives of "Nuestros Ranchos", for
> permanent consultation of our genealogists cousins. Our causin Jorge
> Mendoza
> already is consulting it.
> Felipe reyes Romo
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Platica con tus amigos en linea con MSN Messenger
> http://messenger.t1msn.com.mx/
>

Hi Travis,

Listed below is a translated excerpt from the book: "Genealogy of Nochistlán, Old Kingdom of New Galicia in the 17th Century according to its Parish Archives"

Chapter 80 covers several of the individuals that are involved in the documents noted in your original post.  Unfortunately this does not answer your question as to whether or not Sebastian Perez and Lazaro Ramos were half-brothers, but perhaps the below translated document may assist others in knowing the extent of this Perez family, including Sebastian Perez.   The translated and actual documents are both located in our File section, under the "Reference" area. The link:  Nochistlan Capitulo 80

Chapter 80, Start Page 231

Genealogy of Nochistlán, Old Kingdom of New Galicia in the 17th Century according to its Parish Archives

The Pérez de Frías / Pérez Burgeño / Pérez Espinoza of Santa María de los Lagos at the beginning of the 17th century

Descendants of Juan Pérez de Frías and María López

There is some doubt as to who the father of the offspring documented in this chapter is. According to the illustrious researcher Don José Alfonso Rodríguez de Carvajal y Ortiz, these are sons of Juan Pérez de Frías, son of Juan Pérez de Frías the Elder, brother by Hernando de Frías.  It is documented that Juan Pérez de Frías the Elder "In 1597 Juan Pérez de Frías received a siege of cattle (780 hectares) and a caballeria of land (43 hectares) bordering the town." p.21. Rojas, Beatriz et al., Brief History of Aguascalientes. 1994, El Colegio de México. Likewise, Juan Pérez de Frías is documented as selling land to the Orozco Agüero family in 1579 giving rise to the Ajojucar hacienda. (Guillermo Garmendía Leal, p. 121). Likewise, there is the Document dated June 15, 1577 concerning the Indians of Nochistlán to the Mayor M^R of the valley of Suchulipa regarding bad treatments that mention sending Indians to serve Ju°de Frías Voice of the pu^o of Teocaltiche, State Public Library from Jalisco, No. 11, Leg. 1, 16th Century. Doña Ángela de Belasco, widow, wife of Gerónimo de Orosco, deceased, mentions who appeared before the notary Juan Pérez de Ribera, his son, Franco de Orosco, and presented a mrd Ssha for Mr. Don Gerónimo of Orosco, president and governor, and Cappan, general, who was from this R" to Ju Pérez de Frías, of a cattle ranch site smaller (438 hectares) and four caballeries of land (166 hectares in total) in terms of this town (Teocaltiche) in the Junta of the two rivers of Custique and the one they call the big one and up above, a hot spring in the river itself, and by the lower part a mustard. Its date in Guadalajara on October 20, 1579. These two documents were provided by the illustrious researcher Don José Alfonso Rodríguez de Carvajal y Ortiz. It is a fact that María Burgeño, Ana Pérez, and Sebastián Pérez are siblings, all born in the early 17th century. They need to be identified. The name Pérez de Frías is due to marriage records and the fact that Casilda is the daughter of Beatriz Pérez or Burgeño and granddaughter of Ana Pérez should have himself appointed from Frías. Likewise, Don José Alfonso Rodríguez de Carvajal y Ortiz mentions the possibility of the existence of a Sebastián Pérez de Frías. Initially, Jaime Holcombe mentions an unknown person with the surname Burgeño. He married María Rubio, possibly the daughter of Diego González and María Rubio, who had the following offspring (coinciding the first two): María Burgeño married to Juan López de Elizalde, Ana Burgeño married to Bartolomé Martín, Catalina Rubio married to Luis López Ramírez, N.N. married to Diego Pérez who died on July 12, 1629 and Francisco González born c. 1592. He then mentions that these offspring are the children of Juan Pérez de Frías and María López.  From the marriage the following three offspring have been documented:

1) María Burgeño or María López married to Juan López de Elizalde son of Juan López de Elizalde y Aberruza and Leonor Becerra and Sánchez de Mendoza, Chapter 81.

 2) Sebastián Pérez de Frías, who married Leonor de Rubalcava. On February 4, 1687, in Santa María de los Lagos, presented the dispensation of 3rd degree of consanguinity due to lawful copulation of Juan de Ornelas, a 40-year-old Spaniard, a natural and resident of said parish; to marry Leonor de Rubalcava, 48 years of age, widow of Sebastián Pérez, and daughter legitimate of Juan de Rubalcava and María López, where the claimant declared that María López, deceased, was his blood sister of Sebastián Pérez, husband of the said Leonor de Rubalcava, the intended bride, and the same María López, was Beatriz López's mother, and she was the mother of the said Juan de Ornelas, so that the said Sebastián Pérez was the carnal uncle of the Beatriz López, mother of the prospective groom. Sacred Mitre of Guadalajara, Records of the Series of Marriages - Extracts from the 17th and 18th Centuries, María de la Luz Montejano Hilton, Microfilm 167982-474. Rodrigo was a witness de Olivares, 44 years old, who said that Sebastián Pérez de Frías died 12 years ago, Francisco de Olivares, 37 years of age and Francisco Sánchez Moreno, 63 years of age (information provided by Mary Lou Montagna).

Possibly the same woman, Leonor González, wife of Juan Pérez de Ornelas, died on January 2, 1697.

The following three offspring have been documented from the marriage:

    a) Sebastián Pérez de Frías. On April 21, 1719, in Santa María de Los Lagos, the marriage information was presented.  Sebastián Pérez de Frías, 57 years old, son of Sebastián Pérez de Frías and Leonor de Rubalcava and widower of Josepha de Castañeda; to marry               María García, with Nicolás de Ornelas as witness, who says that the deceased Josepha de Castañeda was his aunt.

b) Marcos Pérez de Frías. On February 5, 1674, Marcos, son of Sebastian Pérez and Leonor, was baptized in Teocaltiche, hijo Sebastian Perez and Leonor Robalcava, with Diego Jiménez and María Ruiz as godparents, all Spaniards and residents of this jurisdiction.

End Page 231 

Start Page 232 (Chapter 80 - Continued)

Genealogy of Nochistlán, Old Kingdom of New Galicia in the 17th Century according to its Parish Archives

c) Inés de Rubalcava, legitimate daughter of Sebastián Pérez and Leonor de Rubalcava, who married Juan Ximénez on the 21^st May 1716 in Santa María de los Lagos.

d) Juan Pérez de Ornelas. On August 9, 1707, Juan Pérez de Ornelas, a Spaniard, presented marriage information. Originally from and resident  of this parish in Río de Santa María, legitimate son of Sebastián Pérez de Ornelas and Leonor de Rubalcava, deceased; to marry Magdalena de Valdez, a Spanish widow of Joseph Carrillo and originally from Teocaltiche and a resident of this parish for six months, legitimate daughter of Basilio de Valdez and Catalina de Anda Altamirano.

3) Ana Pérez or Burgeño, who married Bartolomé Martín. On April 25, 1699, in Santa María de los Lagos, she was noted in a dispensation from a 4th degree of consanguinity for Sebastián Hernández, a 28-year-old Spanish citizen, resident and originally from said town legitimate son of Alonso Hernández and Juana de Araujo; to marry Josepha Pérez de Ornelas, a 20-year-old Spanish woman of age, legitimate daughter of Juan Pérez de Ornelas and Leonor de Rubalcava, deceased, residents of the parish, where she declared that Ana Pérez and María Burgeño were sisters and that Ana Pérez had a daughter named Beatriz Burgeño (Beatriz Burgeño or Pérez, who married Isidro de Araujo (Chapter 85), who had a daughter, Juana de Araujo, the claimant's mother, and the aforementioned María Burgeño had a daughter, Beatriz López, mother of Juan Pérez de Ornelas, father of the claimant. Sacred Mitre from Guadalajara, Marriage Records - Extracts from the 17th and 18th Centuries, María de la Luz Montejano Hilton, Microfilm 168604-2904. 

Bartolomé Martín married María Sánchez de Mendoza as his second wife, having descendants in San Juan de los Lagos according to the register of the Xalostotitlán district of 1650 (House of Bartolomé Martín, Spaniard who lives in the town of San Juan): Juan Garcia, his son of 28 anos, Lázaro de la Peña or Sánchez, a Spaniard who married Jerónima Chavarria, daughter of Juan Rodríguez de Chavarría and Beatriz de Retamosa, Joséph Sánchez de Mendoza who married D. Maria de Orozco and others children and grandchildren. The report of Fiscal proceedings of the Royal Court of Guadalajara of Santa María de los Lagos of May 10^th 1612 which mentions: Diego Pérez, Bartolomé Martín and Juan López de Liçarci, his sons-in-law, indicating that at least Bartolomé Martin and Joan López de Liçarci are married to two sisters, Ana Pérez o Burgeño and María López de Elizalde respectively. Regarding another Bartolome Martin—or perhaps the same person or a relative—the following three pieces of information exist:  On December 27, 1589, in Aguascalients, Bartolome Martin married Cathalina de Espinoza, daughter of the public notary Francisco de Espinoza (a resident of Santa Maria de los Lagos who was still alive in 1605), with Rodrigo Munoz, Hernando de Villegas, Simon Galarca, and others serving as witnesses. They were veiled on March 6, 1590 in Santa María de los Lagos. On June 16, 1628, in St. Mary of the Lagos, Catalina, daughter of Bartholome Martin and Cathalina de Ortega, was baptized. with Madalena de Padilla and Don Lorenso de Padilla as godparents. On October 8, 1635, in Santa María de los Lagos, it was Bartolomé, son of Bartolomé Martín and Cathalina de Ortega, was baptized, with Pedro Gómez Portugal and his wife as godparents. Isabel Ortiz. On August 15, 1639, in Santa María de los Lagos, Nicolás, son of Bartolome Martin and of Cathalina de Ortega, his wife, and his godparents were Lieutenant Andrés López and his sister María González. From this marriage  the following four documented offspring:

a) Nicolás Martín. On March 27, 1619, Nicolás, son of Bartolomé Martín and Ana Burgeño, was baptized in Santa María de los Lagos, with Miguel Hernandez and Juana de Herrera as godparents.

b) Beatriz Burgeño who married Isidro de Araujo, Chapter 85.

c) María Burgeño. On May 3, 1663, in Santa María de los Lagos, Joseph de Espinosa, legitimate son of Francisco de Espinoza… de fernándes del pinal; with María Burgeño, legitimate daughter of Bartolomé Martín and Ana Péres, both deceased. His wedding sponsors were Ysidro de Cuebas (de Araujo) and Beatriz Burgeño, his wife. The census of this town of Santa Maria de los Lagos for the year 1669 mentions:

                 "Joseph de Espinoza / María de Burgeño, his wife"

d) Alfonso Pérez Burgeño. A possible son of this marriage is Alfonso Pérez Burgeño who married María de Mendoza. The following offspring has been documented from this marriage:

1) Ildefonso Pérez Burgeño. On February 12, 1663, Ildefonso was baptized in Santa María de los Lagos. (appeared to be seven months old) son of Alfonso Pérez Burgeño and María de Mendoza, natives of this. The parishioners of said town of Xalostotitlán were Ju' de Fuentes and Josepha Guttz, godparents.

4) Diego Pedro Pérez de Frías. Another possible son of this marriage is Diego Pérez de Frías: On July 9, 1656 in the Royal Court of Sierra de Pinos, Diego de Frías and Elena de Sotomayor (daughter of Juan Montañez and María de Sotomayor) were married. On

End Page 232 

Start Page 233 (Chapter 80 - Continued)

Genealogy of Nochistlán, Old Kingdom of New Galicia in the 17th Century according to its Parish Archives

José Luis Vázquez y Rodríguez de Frías

March 3, 1641, in Teocaltiche, Gerónima, daughter of Ju de Rubalcaba and Mari López, residents of the town of, was baptized in Teoqualtiche, with godparents Diego P° son of Ju° Péres de Frías and Mariana Lópes his sister (of Diego Pedro) residents of this village. 

The following eight offspring have been documented from this marriage:

a) Melchora de los Reyes y Pérez de Frías, who married José de Ornelas. Melchora was confirmed on December 29th of 1666 in Teocaltiche, with Francisca Sánchez as godmother. On June 22, 1708, Teocaltiche presented Matrimonial information Matiana Ruiz daughter of Antonio Ruiz (de la Fuente) and Mariana de Ullóa; to marry Luis de Ornelas, son of José de Ornelas and Melchora Pérez de Frías, where there was an impediment of consanguinity.   Jaime Holcombe presents the following hypothetical family tree (Private communication between Jaime Holcombe and Mary Lou Montagna).

                                                                                                  |

The following six offspring have been documented from this marriage:

1) José de Ornelas. On October 17, 1681, in Teocaltiche, Luis de Ornelas was baptized. On December 16 in 1708 in Teocaltiche, marriage information was presented by Joseph de Ornelas, a 26-year-old Spaniard, son of Joseph de Ornelas and Melchora de los Reyes y Pérez Frías to marry María González de Rubalcava, daughter of Joseph Rubalcava, deceased, and Petra Díaz. The claimant declared that she has two children and is expecting another. Thus, it was also documented that the grandmother of the claimant and the grandmother of the claimant were sisters. Sacred Mitre of Guadalajara, Microfilm 168114. 

2) Bernardo de Ornelas who married Gabriela Sánchez Carrillo de Sandi, natural daughter of Ygnacio Carrillo de Sandi and Gertrudis Sánchez. On April 9, 1731, in Teocaltiche, Bernardo Ornelas 25 years old presented marriage information. Bernardo, son of Joseph de Ornelas and Melchora de los Reyes y Pérez, to marry Gabriela Sánchez Carrillo, 16 years of age, the natural daughter of Ignacio Carrillo de Sandi and Gertrudis Sánchez. The bride-to-be declares that... although her father would like to take her in, he is poor, has many children, and is married... and her mother has other daughters, all of whom are poor in the town of Aguascalientes and live outside this parish. It was also documented that Ignacio Carrillo was the son of Agustina Jiménez, daughter of Jacinta de las Roelas, sister of María de Sotomayor, mother of Elena de Sotomayor, mother of Melchora de los Reyes y Pérez. Sagra Mitra of Guadalajara, Microfilm 16814.

   3) Juan de Ornelas who married María González de Rubalcava daughter of Joseph González de Rubalcava and Petra Díaz.

End page 233 

Start Page 234 (Chapter 80 -

Hello Travis,

I have not found substantiating documents that confirm or deny that Lázaro Ramos is the illegitimate son of Leonor González de Ruvalcaba or the illegitimate son of Felipe de Ruvalcaba (Leonor's brother). The uncertain parentage continued into subsequent generations which we find in the 'dispensa' for Juan de Castañeda and Catarina Ortiz date 11 may 1720:

"México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-2022," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-D2B5-K?cc=1874591&wc=3JW5-… : 28 July 2026), Guadalajara > Diócesis de Guadalajara > Matrimonios 1705-1720 > image 616 of 630; parroquias Católicas (Catholic Church parishes), Jalisco.

The groom, Juan de Castañeda, 'español' is "originario del puesto del Tecolote, feligresía del pueblo de Nuestra Señora de San Juan y criado desde muy niño en esta feligresía [de Santa María de los Lagos] en la labor de San José de la Mololoa", and the legitimate son of Juan de Castañeda (living at the time in 'la Estanzuela', feligresía de Teocaltiche) and María Burgueño Pérez, deceased.

The bride, Catarina Ortiz, 'mestiza', is "originaria y vecina de la cañada de Patricio", and the legitimate daughter of Cristóbal Ortiz and Juana de Aguirre, 'mestizos'.

The grooms petition is for "segundo con tercero grado o de tercero con cuarto grado que no se sabe ciertamente en el grado legítimo, que sea por ser por linea bastarda". The witnesses are:

1. Sebastián Pérez, "español, vecino de esta feligresía en el puesto de San José de la Mololoa", 'tío carnal' of the groom and 'tío en segundo grado' of the bride, and 66 years old. This is the same Sebastián Pérez from the 1709-1711 documents that you referenced and who in this document also declares that Lázaro Ramos is his step brother, "...Lázaro Ramos, abuelo de la pretensa, y María Pérez Burgueño fueron hermanos..."
2. Diego Pérez, "español, vecino de esta feligresía en el la labor de San José de la Mololoa", brother of Sebastián Pérez, and 48 years old. Diego references the proceedings against his brother Sebastián for an illicit affair (the aforementioned 1709-1711 documents) that based on what was said from those proceedings it was said that Lázaro Ramos is the illegitimate brother of said Sebastián Pérez and therefore his brother also, although he does not know this to be true nor does he recognize him as his brother -  "...y entonces se dijo que Lázaro Ramos, abuelo de la pretensa era hermano del dicho Sebastián Pérez y por el consiguiente, suyo del testigo por linea bastarda, que lo cierto no lo sabe ni que le ha reconocido por tal hermano...". Coincidentally, I am currently researching this Diego Pérez, who appears to be the same Diego who married Teresa Valero (or Ovalle).
3. Felipe Pérez, "español, vecino de esta feligresía en el la labor de San José de la Mololoa", brother of Sebastián and Diego Pérez, 50 years old. In his testimony Felipe provides the basis for the alternate 'tercero con cuarto grado' relationship between the groom and bride, stating that he had heard his mother say that Lázaro Ramos was the son of Felipe de Ruvalcaba, his mother's brother and thus Felipe's first cousin  -  "...le oyo decir a su madre de este testigo que Lázaro Ramos, abuelo de la pretensa Catalina Ortiz, mestiza, como había sido hijo de Felipe de Ruvalcaba, hermano de la dicha su madre y que así se lo decía para que lo tuviera el testigo por su primo hermano..."

Lázaro Ramos also appears in the 1679 'padrón' of the parish of Jalostotitlán under the household of Diego Gómez (presumably the same "Don Diego" that you listed in your post):

Estancia: Diego Gómez, Isabel Barrona, Lázaro de Ramos, María Pérez, Andrés Gómez, María Gómez

Saludos,

Austin Pérez

Hola Norma,

I have the following genealogy for your Rosales paternal line. Un cordial Saludo!

Austin Pérez

1. Wenceslao Rosales married María de los Dolores Macías on 18 April 1825 in Encarnación. Wenceslao is the son of Matías Rosales and Ambrosia Campos; and María de los Dolores is the daughter of Pablo Macías and Juana García (probably the source of the García last name used in later generations mentioned in Manny's post).

"México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-2022," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-V5SM-8X?cc=1874591&wc=3JZW… : 9 August 2021), Encarnación de Díaz > La Encarnación > Matrimonios 1778-1830 > image 697 of 840; parroquias Católicas (Catholic Church parishes), Jalisco.

2. Matías Rosales married María de los Dolores Macías about Feb 1817 in Asientos. Their 'información matrimonial' (prenuptial investigation) names Matías as the son of Agustín Rosales and Feliciana Amador; and María de los Dolores is the daughter of Victorino Campos and Luciana Candelas.

"México, Aguascalientes, registros parroquiales, 1601-1962," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DZDS-JT8?cc=1502404&wc=M6Q… : 30 September 2020), Asientos > Nuestra Señora de Belén > Información matrimonial 1816-1818 > image 236 of 696; parroquias Católicas, Aguascalientes (Catholic Church parishes, Aguascalientes).

3. Agustín Pioquinto Rosales married María Feliciana de Amador on 28 Aug 1777 in Ciénega de Rincón. Agustín is the son of Jerónimo Rosales and María de la Torre; and María Feliciana's parents are unknown as she was registered in her marriage records as 'hija de padres no conocidos'. María Feliciana also used the last name of Castillo.

"México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-2022," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-JP61-K?cc=1874591&wc=3JHP-7M9%3A171936601%2C171934502%2C172813301 : 17 May 2026), Ciénega de Mata > Inmaculada Concepción > Información matrimonial 1777-1779 > image 82 of 474; parroquias Católicas (Catholic Church parishes), Jalisco.

"México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-2022," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-J54R-2?cc=1874591&wc=3JHT-BZ9%3A171936601%2C171934502%2C173526701 : 9 August 2021), Ciénega de Mata > Inmaculada Concepción > Matrimonios 1757-1812 > image 185 of 577; parroquias Católicas (Catholic Church parishes), Jalisco.

4. Jerónimo Rosales married María de la Torre on 3 Feb 1744 in Aguascalientes. Jerónimo is the son of Jerónimo Rosales and Josefa Romo; María is the daughter of Juan de la Torre and María de Luevana.

"México, Aguascalientes, registros parroquiales, 1601-1962," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRW9-TY4?cc=1502404&wc=M6QF-SM9%3A64894501%2C64894502%2C70237001 : 20 May 2014), Aguascalientes > Asunción de María > Información matrimonial 1743-1744 > image 713 of 718; parroquias Católicas, Aguascalientes (Catholic Church parishes, Aguascalientes).

"México, Aguascalientes, registros parroquiales, 1601-1962," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DTDQ-J6Y?cc=1502404&wc=M6QF-2P8%3A64894501%2C64894502%2C107332501 : 20 May 2014), Aguascalientes > Asunción de María > Matrimonios 1736-1750 > image 273 of 522; parroquias Católicas, Aguascalientes (Catholic Church parishes, Aguascalientes).

5. Jerónimo Rosales married Josefa Romo on or after Apr 1709 in Aguascalientes. Jerónimo is the son of Francisco Rosales and Josefa García; Josefa is the daughter of Francisco Romo de Vivar and Lorenza Ruiz de Esparza.

"México, Aguascalientes, registros parroquiales, 1620-1962," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRD3-21P?cc=1502404&wc=M6QF-MNP%3A64894501%2C64894502%2C70018301 : 20 May 2014), Aguascalientes > Asunción de María > Información matrimonial 1708-1710 > image 204 of 578; parroquias Católicas, Aguascalientes (Catholic Church parishes, Aguascalientes).

Hola Norma:

According to the baptism records of their children, Genaro was the son of Wenceslao Rosales and Maria Dolores Macias, who were apparently from Encarnacion de Diaz, Jalisco. Here is the marriage record of his parents:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:684P-9DZ1?lang=en

Maria Dionisia Vazquez also used the surname Garcia (they are the same person; if you notice, on son Buenaventura’s baptism record, she is called Garcia, while on his death registry, she’s called Vazquez). The names of her parents vary in the records (and so do those of Genaro’s parents on the baptism records of twins Juan & Juana). This was a common mistake, especially in towns where the parents' didn't originate. Here are the baptism records I've found for their children:

Barbara Rosales Vasquez: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6M8M-CYPZ?lang=en
Twins Juan & Juana Rosales Vasquez: 
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6MN4-ZH2M?lang=en
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6MXB-47T2?lang=en
Magdaleno Rosales Garcia: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6D2C-8MQT?lang=en
Daniel Rosales Garcia: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJ7X-4RHD?lang=en
Buenaventura Rosales Garcia (baptism): https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6ZJP-6YXS?lang=en
Buenaventura Rosales Vasquez (death): 
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLT3-Z1DX?lang=en

The earliest are in Fresnillo, Zac, so that might be a good place to look for their marriage record.

I hope that helps! Welcome to the group!
Saludos,
Manny Díez Hermosillo
 

Hello Norma,

Welcome! You joined the right group. There are some incredibly knowledgeable and helpful members here who are always willing to share their experience and answer questions. Glad to have you with us!

Travis

Good day.

While that is a working hypothesis, it is worth noting that the Ortiz and Ayala surname pairing appears across other 16th-century lineages in New Spain. For instance, Antonio Ortiz de Matienzo (a former Viceroyal Page) was married to Luisa de Ayala in Mexico City by 1555. Besides, as we currently know, the Pantoja family resided in Michoacán as regidores (Pátzcuaro) and there is the marriage of Catalina Ortiz de Ayala with Francisco de Pantoja in Toledo, who in turn, was a sixth grandson of Fernán Pérez Pantoja. Moreoever, in the 16th century there is another Tomás de Ayala in the protocols of Antonio Alonso in 1579 who may be the father of the Tomás de Ayala of Michoacán.

Given the fluidity of 16th-century naming conventions in early New Spain, we must be careful since surname overlap alone cannot establish parentage. Until explicit primary-source documentation (such as a baptismal record, dowry, or marriage velación) is uncovered for Tomás, any proposed connection must be carefully analyzed.

Best regards,

Erik Andrés Reynoso y Márquez

it would be nice to know if there's a connection there? my ancestor maria esquivel is quite an enigma

Dear Daniel,

Your insight is fascinating, as always. I have long wondered about the claimed connection between the Ruiz de Chávez family and Hernán Cortés (aside from the Cortés line that suggests a link, of course). If this branch of the Chávez family indeed originates from Ciudad Rodrigo (Salamanca), there is a strong possibility they stem from the García de Chaves lineage, who were connected by marriage to the Orellana family, ancestors of Cortés himself.

Please do keep us updated as your research progresses.

Best regards,

Erik Andrés Reynoso y Márquez

I think it was an assumption made based on the availability of the documents at the time. I have to imagine that it was much more challenging in the past to do this kind of research as you had to travel to the archives in person. This is similar to the case where for a while it was thought that Catalina Corona cc Juan de Villasenor Cervantes was originally from Extremadura, Spain as detailed in the book "Los Nietos de Don Juan" by Davila Garibi. It's not a dig or criticism, it's just a matter of what material/records were accessible at the time. I find myself having to adjust old theories/conjectures as more information and documents become available.

Regards,

Daniel

Thank you for the additional information and context Pascual. This is very useful and tells me I'm on the right track. 

I'd like to share some clues on the ancestry of Leonor de Chavez Corona. There's a mention of a sale for some land that dates from the late 1500s where Diego Ruiz (El mozo) is mentioned in addition to his brother-in-law Andres de Chavez: 

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9BN-2QL3-D?i=202  

The relevant writing says: "...Ytem un instrumento simple de Diego Ruiz el moso en que declara por el que por cuanto Andres de Chavez su cuñado vendio al padre Melchor Hernandes Duarte una estancia de ganado mayor digo menor en el valle de Guaniqueo en terminos de Puruandiro, lindes con estancia del Colegio y Tumbio y estancia que al presente es de Francisco Magdaleno en la rivera del Rio que baja a la puente de Guaniqueo en que aprueba la dicha escritura que hizo Andres de Chavez su cuñado en una foja."

Let's suppose that this Diego Ruiz (el mozo) is Diego Ruiz Cortez (Son of Diego Ruiz Cortez and Elvira Hernandez de Rangel). Diego Ruiz Cortez was married to Leonor de Chavez Corona as we know. If Andres de Chavez was the brother of Leonor de Chavez Corona, there's now two Chavez Corona siblings we know about. 

In the mid 1500s Morelia, there was a couple by the names of Andres de Chavez cc Leonor Alvarez. Andres de Chavez' will is available for viewing here: 

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKV-D9K1-K?cat=olib%3…

In it we find that Andres de Chavez was born in Ciudad Rodrigo (En los reinos de Castilla) and he married twice, first with Leonor Alvarez and then with Catalina de Mondragon. (Andres de Chavez and Catalina de Mondragon never had any children) Andres de Chavez and Leonor Alvarez had the following children:

Pedro de Chavez Corona (Born around 1560)

Leonor de Chavez Corona

Andres de Chavez Corona

Mariana Corona y Chavez

There are further clues scattered about in land disputes, grants, notarial documents, dispensas etc. that make me believe that Leonor Alvarez was most likely Leonor Alvarez Corona, daughter of Hernando Gonzalez Corona cc Catalina Gonzalez (Originarios de Guadalacanal) and some of the first Spanish settlers of Michoacan. I believe Leonor Alvarez Corona cc Andres de Chavez to be the source of the "Corona" in the Chavez Corona and thus the Ruiz de Chavez Corona. I don't think that there was ever a direct connection to the Villasenor family in this branch of the Gonzalez/Alvarez Coronas. If anything, there would have been a Villasenor connection via Leonor Alvarez Corona's sister Mayor Gomez Corona who married Gonzalo Gomez y Gomez. They had a daughter named Catalina Gomez Corona who married Juan de Villasenor Cervantes.

Daniel 

Hello Pascual,

I've looked at this family for a while. Like you said, I have never seen a Villasenor associated with Leonor de Chavez Corona cc Diego Ruiz Cortez. She's always mentioned as Leonor Corona/Leonor de Chavez Corona/Leonor de Chavez. We only start seeing the Villasenor appear in one branch of the Ruiz Cortez y Chavez Corona, that's of Andres Ruiz de Chavez cc Maria de Villasenor. There's an "informacion matrimonial" where a Maria de Villasenor is mentioned in relation to an Andres Ruiz de Chavez in 1657:

Mexico, Guanajuato, Catholic Church Records, 1519-1984; https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KLSQ-4W?cc=1860831

In here we see that Floriana Cortez de Villasenor is getting married to Fernando Carrillo Altamirano (Viudo de Tomasina de Lira y Zayas). One of the witnesses in this information is "Domingo Cortez". He mentions in his testimony that he's the brother of Andres Ruiz de Chavez. This Domingo is quite possible the same one who married in Mexico City in 1635: Mexico, Distrito Federal, Catholic Church Records, 1514-1970; https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939D-DX93-V?cc=1615259&wc=3P8Q-6TL%3A122652201%2C132529401. Domingo was the son of Diego Ruiz and Leonor de Chavez Corona. This implies that the Andres Ruiz de Chavez mentioned here is the son of Diego Ruiz Cortez and Leonor de Chavez Corona.

Now, there's another witness, "Juan de Villasenor" who mentions he's the brother of Floriana. He gives his age of 27 years old. So he was born around 1630. With this Juan de Villasenor, we now know that there's at least two children of Andres Ruiz de Chavez and Maria de Villasenor who carried the "Villasenor" surname.

Going back to Andres Ruiz de Chavez, we see his signature here in the same "informacion matrimonial": Mexico, Guanajuato, Catholic Church Records, 1519-1984; https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KLS3-LH?cc=1860831. Let's compare that signature to this one from a territorial dispute where there's an Andres Ruiz de Chavez:

Morelia. Voting Registers 1649

In my opinion, the signatures match. Furthermore, in this territorial dispute, it's mentioned that this Andres Ruiz de Chavez was the father of a Nicolas de Chavez Cortez and Maria de Abrego was the mother: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSKV-D91X-F?view=fullText&keywords=Andr%C3%A9s+Ru%C3%ADz&lang=en&groupId=M9Z2-X66

So, given this information... I think that the Corona Villasenor comes from this branch/generation of the Ruiz de Chavez Corona. Andres Ruiz de Chavez married to Maria de Abrego (sometimes, the Castilleja was included as she descended from the family of the great Calzonci). So did Andres marry twice? (once to Maria de Abrego and then to Maria de Villasenor? Or are we dealing with one Maria - sometimes referred to as Abrego and other times as Villasenor?) I think that Maria de Abrego and Maria de Villasenor are the same person. Let me share some clues of why I think this:

1. Andres Ruiz de Chavez and Maria de Abrego had a son named Jose Corona who was married to Juana de Sanabria. We happen to have his will where he states that he's the son of Andres Ruiz de Chavez and Maria de Abrego: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSD2-PH3M?i=534&cat=623294
2. In an informacion matrimonial for a daughter of Jose Corona and Juana de Sanabria, her given name is: Maria de Villasenor: Mexico, Michoacán, Catholic Church Records, 1555-1996; https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KG9R-MW?cc=1883388&wc=3NTF-SP8%3A178285301%2C178658501%2C204006203
3. In another informacion matrimonial for another daughter of Jose Corona and Juana de Sanabria, her given name is: Leonor Corona de Villasenor: Mexico, Guanajuato, Catholic Church Records, 1519-1984; https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-ZGSL-92?cc=1860831

This makes me think that we're dealing with a one and the same Maria de Abrego Castillieja... y... Villasenor. I don't have any information on her parents other than she was a descendant of the "Senores de Michoacan". 

I hope this helps. 

Daniel

What you request is here: De Nobleza Inmemorial: Genealogía y poder en los linajes de Nueva Galicia, Nueva España y el obispado de Michoacán : Reynoso y Márquez, Erik Andrés: Amazon.es: Libros

There are two “Diego Romo” that are first cousins that worked for  their uncle Francisco del Rincon. One of the Diego Romos is the son of Antonio Romo and Ana Arellano and is known as Diego Romo de Arellano.  The second Diego Romo is known as Diego Romo de Vivar.  The lengthier surnames were needed to distinguish between them as they both worked for their uncle when they first came over from Spain. 

We have a record of a Diego Romo that came over from Spain that is identified as the son of Juan Romo and Ana Diaz.  This Diego came over with his brother Luis Romo. I believe that Juan Romo is the brother of Antonio Romo and Francisca del Rincon.  In a lawsuit that I found, Juan Romo is involved in  a lawsuit with another family member over property located where Diego Romo de Vivar and his brother Alonso de la Fuente resided before leaving Spain.  Francisco del Rincon de Vivar, Antonio Romo, and Juan Romo were sons of Juan Luis del Rincon and Maria Romo.  The de Vivar comes from Maria Romo.  Ana Diaz may also have the De Vivar surname in her ancestry as many family members in that area commonly used  both Diaz and Diaz de Vivar.  



The parents of Juan Luis del Rincon are Juan de Fuentes and Ynes del Rincon. This means that the paternal grandparents of Francisco del Rincon, Antonio Romo, and Juan Romo are Juan de Fuentes and Ynes del Rincon. Juan de Fuentes was also known as Juan Rico Romo before he took the surname “de Fuentes” from the “villa de la Fuente” that he resided at. That is where Diego Romo de Vivar’s brother, Alonso de la Fuente, gets his surname from. 

Going back to Juan Romo, son of Juan Luis del Rincon, grandson of Juan Fuentes, brings us back to how common the name “Juan” is in this family.  Juan de Fuentes (aka Juan Rico y Romo) is the grandson on his father’s side of Juan Martin Rico, and on his mother’s side, grandson of another Juan Romo.

I have pieces of a puzzle that when placed together point to Diego Romo de Vivar being the same Diego Romo that is the son of Juan Romo and Ana Diaz. The given is that Diego Romo de Vivar is a son of a sibling of Francisco del Rincon and Antonio Romo. 

Juan Romo is the only other sibling known by me at this moment,  If Juan Romo is the only other sibling then he has to be the father of Diego Romo de Vivar.  If Diego Romo, son of Juan Romo and Ana Diaz, is the same person as Diego Romo de Vivar, then he has at least two brothers that came over from Spain to what we now know as Mexico. If we find any more documents with those two brothers, Alonso de la Fuente, and Luis Romo, we may be able to find iron clad evidence of who their parents are.

I am still looking for more pieces of the puzzle to confirm this analysis, and it may be premature to post this conclusion, but I am hoping others join in the research to prove or disprove the hypothesis that Diego Romo de Vivar is the same person as Diego Romo, son of Juan Romo.

Rick A. Ricci

Diego Romo de Vivar is identified as a first cousin to Diego Romo de Arellano and that their uncle is Francisco Rincon Romo.  Through other documents we have identified Francisco del Rincon Romo as the son of Juan Luis del Rincon and Maria Romo.  These documents also reveal the parents, grandparents and great grandparents of Jose Luis del Rincon.I have the documents verifying this information.   

”En su testamento, Diego Romo de Arellano afirmó que "cuando vino de los Reinos de Castilla, entró sirviendo a Francisco Rincón, su tío", a quien sirvió “por quince o dieciséis años” y “que pasó y socorrió a su primo Diego Romo de Vivar”, a quien “le prestó un negro que Diego Romo de Vivar vendió a Hernando de Bustillos" (el Capitán Hernando de Bustillos era, en 1634, el dueño de la Hacienda de Canutillo, en la jurisdicción del Real del Parral). El testamento de Diego Romo de Arellano fue otorgado en Tlaltenango el 26 de octubre de 1667, habiendo sido testigos de su otorgamiento los Padres Predicadores Fray Diego Illanes y Fray Pedro Gómez, Vicario. En una actuación realizada el 30 de octubre de 1620, y atestiguando sobre la soltería de Diego Chavero, Diego Romo de Arellano manifestó ser a la sazón vecino de Alfajayuca, provincia de Jilotepec, en el actual estado de Méjico, tratante en ganado cabrío y de yeguas.”

Rick A. Ricci

 

Pedro Rincon y Ortega is identified as a first cousin to Capitan Diego Romo de Vivar.  Francisco Rincon de Vivar is identified as uncle of Diego Romo de Arellano and Capitán Diego Romo de Vivar.  The son of the Capitan, also named  Diego Romo de Vivar, is the one that  identifies Pedro Rincon Ortega as his  “tio”.   Capitan Diego Romo de Vivar and a first cousin, Diego Romo de Arellano, are sons of siblings of their tio Francisco Ricon y Romo de Vivar.

"cuando vino de los Reinos de Castilla, entró sirviendo a Francisco Rincón, su tío", a quien sirvió “por quince o dieciséis años” y “que pasó y socorrió a su primo Diego Romo de Vivar”

Rick A. Ricci

Book: Mygenes2000

By Rick A. Ricci, book Mygenes2000

El testamento de Diego Romo de Arellano fue otorgado en Tlaltenango el 26 de octubre de 1667
 

Hello Erik and Manny,

I went back and reread your statement that:

                   “Diego Pérez (husband of Inés Gómez) was the brother of Juan de Fuentes, who married Inés del Rincón.”. 

 I did not have that information. Another tangle in this family web.  

Thanks again Erik for your excellent work,

and thank you Manny for finding the information that Alonso de Fuentes is a brother of Capitan Diego Romo de Vivar.   It drove me to do more research which added many puzzle pieces.


Rick A. Ricci

Romo lineage from Juan Romo to Pedro Rincon Ortega, uncle of Diego Romo de Vivar:

By Rick A. Ricci, book Mygenes2000

We can take this to mean that Diego Romo de Vivar descends from Juan Luis Rincon and Maria Romo de Vivar.  They are his grandparents.    That is a fact given the documents that we have on hand at this moment. They clearly provide the pieces to state this lineage.  What is lacking is one step in the lineage as we don’t know the identity of the parents of Diego, only that one of them is a child of Juan Luis del Rincon and Maria Romo.  
 

There are many marriages among the family, first, second, and third cousins marrying. What limits the possibilities is that we know who his grandparents are, and who his brother is, Alonso Fuentes (del Fuentes)

=======================================================================

===================================================================

Additional clues to research to help find the parents of Diego Romo de Vivar:

1)- Alonso Diaz and Maria Romo are the parents of

2)- Juan Romo who married Maria Diaz (daughter of Juan Alonso El Viejo and Ana Diaz).

3)- Pedro Romo who traveled to new Spain in 1594

 
https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/show/134529?nm

Here is a record of a Diego Romo crossing the Atlantic Ocean as a criado of his brother Luis Romo Diaz (Daza).   Diego and Luis are the sons of Juan Romo y Ana Díaz de Agüero.  

This Diego Romo could be the same person as Diego Romo de Vivar.

I don’t know if ther parents of Pedro Romo (Juan Romo and Maria Diaz) are the same people as  Juan Romo and Ana Diaz de Aguero who are the parents of Diego Romo and Luis Romo.

There is still a lot more research, reading of documents, to find out exactly how Diego Romo de Vivar is a nephew of Pedro Rincon y Ortega.

Book Mygenes2000

Rick A. Ricci

Saludos Eric,

After researching the subject, I discovered that you were correct in your original statement that Diego Romo de Vivar and Alonso Fuentes are brothers.  After reading documents that identify Juan Luis Ricon’s brother’s genealogical tree I am convinced, and I no longer doubt that they are brothers. 

Juan Fuentes had a first marriage prior to his marriage to Ynes del Rincon

Thanks again for all your work Erik,

Rick A. Ricci

Ejecutoria del pleito litigado por Pedro de Vivar, vecino de Rielves (Toledo), con el concejo de dicha villa, sobre su hidalguía. Archivo de la Real Chancillería de Valladolid  1575
 

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/6678462?nm

   Bienes de difuntos: Diego del Rincón

Diego del Rincón, vecino de Toledo, donde murió con testamento. 1584.

sobre los bienes de Diego del Rincón, vecino de Toledo, donde murió con testamento. Casado con Ana de Luján, vecina de Toledo. Heredero: Juan Rincón, su hijo

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/94599

.

Saludos Erik,

Here is a legal battle between two family members that are in that document that you provided Erik.  
https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/find?nm=&texto=Diego+romo+de+palacios+

Pleito entre Diego Alonso Fernández, vecino de Madrid (Madrid), contra Diego Romo de Palacios, vecino de Fuensalida (Toledo), sobre la tenuta y posesión de los memorías y obras pías que fundó Luis Gómez.

I believe that Luis Gomez is ancestor to Maria Gomez.

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/show/134529?nm

Here is a record of a Diego Romo crossing the Atlantic Ocean as a criado of his brother Luis Romo Diaz (Daza).   Diego and Luis are the sons of Juan Romo y Ana Díaz de Agüero.

What is interesting about the next line is tha JUan Romo’s father is not surnamed Romo, his mother is the Romo:

On more than one occasion I have found someone surnamed Diaz to later find them with the longer surname Diaz de Vivar.

Alonso Diaz and Maria Romo are the parents of

Juan Romo who married Maria Diaz (daughter of Juan Alonso El Viejo and Ana Diaz).

They are the parents of Pedro Romo who traveled to new Spain in 1594

the area where Pedro Romo is from is part of Rielves , Toledo
 https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/memories/2MS7-VRX

Pedro is most likely a cousin of Diego Romo and Luis Romo.

Hello Erik,

Here are some more documents that may provide more puzzle pieces:

Informaciones genealógicas de Juan García Rosado, natural de San Juan del Puerto (Huelva), pretendiente a familiar del Tribunal de la Inquisición de México, y de su mujer María Romo, natural de Rielves (Toledo)

S supplied title:

Informaciones genealógicas de Juan García Rosado y de María Romo, su mujer

reference number:

INQUISICIÓN,1277,Exp.38

date of formation:

1628

level of description:

Unidad Documental Compuesta_en

reference code:

ES.28079.AHN//INQUISICIÓN,1277,Exp.38

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/1551676?nm

——————-

Pedro Perez 1569

Expediente de concesión de licencia para pasar a Nueva España a favor de Pedro Pérez, vecino de Rielves, que va a México, donde están sus primos Luis del Rincón y Alonso Romo  Mateo Romo

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/438983

————+

Proceso criminal de Alonso Romo, familiar del santo oficio, natural y vecino de Portillo de Toledo, a instacia de Henán González, vecino de Fuensalida, por dar puñaladas

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/3685155/imprimir

supplied title:

Proceso criminal de Alonso Romo

reference number:

INQUISICIÓN,2088,Exp.4

date of formation:

1562

level of description:

Unidad Documental Compuesta_en

reference code:

ES.28079.AHN//INQUISICIÓN,2088,Exp.4

Saludos Erik,

Hello Erik,

I applaud your focus on the De Vivar (de Bibar) family as most other searches have focused primarily on the Romo surname.  And most searches have focused on the name Diego Romo, as the name Diego is repeated often in each family in Spain, and the name Diego Romo de Vivar is repeated in Nueva Galicia. But the name Pedro is also repeatedly found in Spain and Nueva Galicia, which leads me to the following question:

Can you add any information on Pedro de Bibar (de Vivar) and his wife Catalina Romo (daughter of Pedro de Vivar is from Fuensalida that are mentioned in the document you provided?  Is this Pedro de Vivar and Catalina Romo  the same couple that you mentioned earlier. 

Pedro Rincon de Ortega is named as Diego Romo de Vivar’s uncle.   It is most likely that Pedro is a “tio abuelo” as Pedro’s parents are Francisco Rincon de Vivar y Romo and Maria de La Vega. Pedro Rincon’s paternal grandparents are Luis Rincon and Maria Romo. I believe that this Maria Romo the aunt of  Catalina Romo. This is just a guess based on the information on hand.   Catalina Romo is named as a niece of “Maria Romo” and her mother a sister of Maria Romo    I believe that it is possible that Catalina’s father name is de Fuente which would could explain Diego having a brother with the surname de Fuente. Do you have the name of Alonso de La Fuente’s wife to see if they are brothers-in-laws?

This is just an exercise showing how the parts of the puzzle show Pedro Rincon de Ortega as a great uncle of Diego Romo de Vivar:

Pedro Romo cc Maria Gomez (De Vivar) parents of (1a) Maria Romo and (2a) Pedro Romo

Or 

or ?

Here are a couple of other possible  leads: Hernando Romo (hijo de Juan Romo y Catalina Sanchez) married to Elena  (hija  de Juan Roman y Catalina).

Hernando Romo and Elena are the parents of another Catalina Romo. Hernando Romo traveled to the “indias” with his wife and daughter in the early 1500’s, (1513 by himself and again with his wife and daughter in 1515).

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/5531143?nm

https://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/description/5448878?nm

Thanks again for all your research,

Rick A. Ricci

In many cases where someone is illegitimate someone in the family tries to hide that fact and makes up a different family connection. Many years ago I shared the following information based on a primary source, a will, that clearly identifies  Pero (Pedro) Gonzalez de Alcocer is his father. Fernando Diaz de Alcocer is the grandfather to Jurado “Diego Diaz de Alcocer”.

 No hay dos Jurado Diego de Alcocers, pero si hay dos Diego de Alcocer. Fernando de Alcocer si tuvo un hijo Diego de Alcocer que murio joven. El padre de Jurado Diego de Alcocer es el Doctor Pero (Pedro) Gonzalez de Alcocer.

I find Diego de Alcocer listed as a son to Fernan Diaz de Alcocer as passing away at a young age, way too young to have left descendants.

Later on when the family all of Fernan’s children are recorded in a document you don’t find Diego’s name there because he had already passed away.    The other Diego Alcocer is from an illegitimate relationship that his son the priest had.

The source where I had picked up my information is Juan de la Barreda y Acedo-Rico in his book Viejas Familias de Alcalá de Henares. My other source was Laura Balletto's citation of the will stating that Diego is Pedro Gonzalez de Alcocer’s son and therefore Fernando de Alcocer’s grandchild. According to a will, Pedro Gonzalez de Alcocer is his father.

Pedro Gonzalez De Alcocer was a priest (Doctor Pedro González de Alcocer, canónigo de la Iglesia Catedral de Sevilla). In this scenario Diego is illegitimate. Real estate deals involve the buyer checking for legal ownership of the seller. Real estate transactions must be written, as oral real estate transactions are not enforceable. Laura Balleto’s citation of the Will shows that chain of ownership from the previous owner, Diego, and how he had acquired it, through an inheritance from his Father Pedro Gonzalez De Alcocer who stated in his will that he was leaving it to his son Jurado Diego Alcocer, Our ancestor Diego.
 

Rick A. Ricci
 

Erik, muchas gracias por compartir estas nuevas gran informaciones. !Estoy muy agradecido por el trabajo de Jorge Barba, Manny Diez y de Usted!

Un cordial saludo,

Austin Pérez

Saludos Erik,

When you brought up the issue of saying that you have confirmed brother and not brother in law I immediately thought of a book that I am writing on a famous person whose ancestry has been up for debate for centuries.  

While looking for my ancestors I came across the true ancestry and began researching and writing about his family over 20 years ago.  I had over 200 pages written when someone else wrote a book with a different twist than my ancestry for him.   I was dumbfounded and wondered how all of my research showed a certain ancestry while this other book showed a different ancestry for his mother.  I did even more research and my research confirmed my findings while this other author put out another book where he doubled down on his findings.  And his findings hung on the word “brother”.  It wasn’t until Steven Francisco Hernandez Lopez, a genealogist that I greatly admire, made a mistake in putting a family tree together because a brother in law had been called brother, but more research proved that he in fact was a brother in law. A light bulb went off in my head and that is when I figured out why the other author had put together a different family tree. the other author had made the same error.  That person that he mistakenly had as the mother was the mother of his brother in law, the husband of his sister.   So my research on this figure was confirmed by further research, but it took time and more work to clear up the discrepancy.

So when you say that it is confirmed that he is a brother and not a brother in law, I feel the urge to go back and research the tree some more. I feel that it is possible that Alonso de la Fuente may be the husband of Diego Romo’s sister. 

or Alonso de La Fuente is a half brother to Diego Romo de Vivar Perez.   There is a “Alonso de La Fuente” baptized in Santa María Magdalena, Castrillo-Tejeriego, Valladolid, Castilla y León, España on 28/Oct/1581; son of Alonso de La Fuente and Maria Perez.
Thanks again,

Rick A. Ricci

Thanks for sharing Erik the clarification regarding that baptismal record of Diego.

Diego Romo and Juan Romo are brothers.

Juan Romo is the father of Maria Romo that married Pedro Rico.  (Pedro Rico is the son of Juan Martin Rico and Marina Gomez).

Pedro Rico and Maria Romo are the parents of Juan De Fuentes who married Ynes Fernandez daughter of Isabel Fernandez (Hernandez) and  Pedro Hernandez del Rincon

Juan de Fuentes and Ines del Rincon are the parents of Rafael Rincon 

Going back to Juan Romo’s brother Diego Romo we know that this Diego Romo was also referred to as Diego Romo el Viejo as there was a long string of “Diego Romo”s in the family.  

Diego Romo el Viejo’s son Diego Romo was also known as el moço

Diego Alonso Romo had more children.  In this post I am only identifying two of his sons, Diego Romo el Viejo and Juan Romo. Another son  of Diego Alonso Romo’s also has descent in what is now Los Altos de Jalisco. The reason for only identifying two lines right now is to confirm what Erik Andres Reynoso Marquez stated: that the Romo, Rincon, and Fuentes lines were interconnected.

Here are the names in a table:

One of the Diego Romos in the family line was also referred to as “Diego el Romo” and you can find in “PARES” a document where he is accused by the inquisition of saying some “inappropriate words”.   There are a few other documents in PARES that discuss Diego el Romo.  One of them is about him and his neighbor who coincidently is named Diego Alonso.

Diego el Romo, hijo de Diego García el Romo y de Isabel Álvarez.  They are from the Toledo area. 

Viaje a las India’s : Diego el Romo, hijo de Diego García el Romo y de Isabel Álvarez, vecinos de Illescas; y Julián de Illescas, [hijo] de Diego de Illescas y de Inés Álvarez, vecinos de Illescas.  This illescas is in the Toledo area just like Rielves and Fuensalida.


The quote “inappropriate words” is mine and I use it here to not go into detail here about the accusations against him.
 

The Romo research has an important audience in my immediate family as my mothers maiden name is Romo, and the many Romo cousins in my family tree are very close and keep in touch daily through a WhatsApp chat that connects the family members from all over the world   Some are in Milan Italy, a nephew in France, cousins in Toronto Canada, many cousins in Houston, Texas;  Los Angeles, California, Mexico City, Guadalajara, Jalisco; Alaska, Seattle Washington, Bend Oregon, Tepatitlan, Jalisco, and Jalostotitlan Jalisco, and Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco, and my Tia Tere Romo Barba in Germany with her husband and daughter. They constantly bombard me with questions regarding the Romo line.

Thanks again Erik for sharing your research, I am on the lookout for your next book. 

Rick A. Ricci

P.S.  while researching the Romo line, be on the lookout for the name “Pedro el Romo de Velasco”. This Pedro El Romo de Velasco came over in 1585

Like others commenting on this thread, we are descended from Basilio de Valdés y Inés Péres de Robalcaba, also, through son, Luis (m. Ana López de Lara) and grandson, Basilio (m. Manuela Gómez alias Manuela Maravillas).

Two quick comments:

• For the elder Basilio's parents: has anyone looked into Basilio de Valdés of Teocaltiche, who married Catalina Mejía de Anda Altamirano?
• And while I know records state that Manuela Gómez's parents are unknown, is it coincidental that at least one (and maybe two) descendants of Pedro Gomez de Portugal and Isabel Ortiz de Anda also used the surname "Maravilla" upon occasion. Manuela Gómez is alternatively described in records as castiza, Española and coyote similarly to how many descendants of Pedro Gomez de Portugal and Isabel Ortiz de Anda are also described.

Thank you,

Travis

Can you provide us with the URL address of the image of the marriage entry
in question? The URL is in the address bar at the top of the browser and is
unique to that image. Seeing the entry will allow someone here to transcribe
it.

Armando

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 7:51 PM, wrote:

> I was hoping that someone with more experience in early 1800s marriage log
> translation could help me out with some terminology/abbreviation.
>
> In the margin of the church log it states the name of the couple to be
> married, followed by the abbreviation "esp." in lower case cursive. What
> does that mean?
>
> Also in the body of the text it reads "Para el matrimonio... (then it looks
> like a lower case q with a lower case e or l above it) the next word looks
> like conmq (& again the lower case q has what looks to be an n above it.
>
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Thanks.
> Monica -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>
> To post, send email to:
> research(at)NuestrosRanchos.**com
>
> To change your subscription, log on to:
> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>

esp. means espa~ol (spanish); it means that they were either spaniards or from spanish ancestors. the other notes i dont know, maybe if i see the document'
hope this helps!

A. Bugarin

Hello Peredo,

All very good information and thank you for sharing! Would you happen to have a FS link to the baptism for Guadalupe, daughter of Guillermo Plancarte and Ana Hernandez? I've also been researching the Plancartes/Blancartes for quite a few years. I only have the baptism for their daughter Isabel. One other question, how do you know that this same Guadalupe was the wife of Alvaro Yanez Garcia? I have yet to find out the name of the wife of Alvaro Yanez Garcia. All the records I've seen, in the Tierras, the archives of "Casa de Morelos", etc. never mention his wife's name.

Thank You,

Daniel Serna Valencia

Marcelina,

No todo los casos que se modificaban los apellidos sino era como el cura notaba el apellido. Munguía y Murguía es tradicionalmente aceptado como la misma familia en la provincia de Avalos. Sin duda son dos casas distintas en la península; Munguía siendo originaria de Castilla y Murguía del País Vasco.

No se sabe quienes fueron los padres de D. Nicolás de Munguía, marido de Da. María Infante de Villegas, pero si los tengo en mi archivo familiar ya que una hija suya Da. Cecilia de Munguía y Villegas casó D. Manuel de Aranda Puelles, Señor Divisero del Solar de Puelles. Un chozno de esta pareja, D. Crescencio de Aranda Puelles y Villalobos casó a Da. Josefa de Camino y Valle Menín Velarde, miembro de mi casa materna.

Su hipótesis sobre los Munguía de Tamazula de Gordiano y Zapotlán puede ser una posibilidad.

Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino

Nicolas De Murguia 2Z3Y-GXT
​06 Mar 1628 Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco, Mexico–Deceased
Creo que este es el dia de nacimiento(bautizo) ya que se caso y tuvo hijos despues de este dia asi que no puede ser dia que fallecio.

Busque el casimiento que seguro pudo ser entre 1680-87 pero los archivos del ano 1685-87 faltan. Otro detalle notable es que tuvo los hijos con Maria Ynfante Villegas ninguna dice Maria Gonzales mas que el de Pedro nacido 1725 que seguramente no es de ellos. Otro detalle es que el hermano diego dias Ynfante caso con villegas y tuvo a maria Ynfante villegas que se caso 1678 con alonso. O puede ser que hay dos Marias en la familia (usan los nombres solano, dias, gonzales, villegas y otros nombres) pero una use el nombre gonzales y la otra Ynfante. Lo ultimo es que si Nicolas nacio en 1628 puede ser que estuvo casado antes.

Cambiando temas: en el libro Estudios Michoacanos VII por Francisco Meyer en la pagina 113 menciona el nombre de Diego de Avalos de Velazco y Munguia (n. M. June 25 1722)fue originario de Zapotlan, Jalisco y vecino de Zamora, hijo de Pedro de Avalos y de Dona Josefa de Velazco y Munguia (aveces Murguia)

tambien menciona a nombres como Espinosa, Peres de Garfias, Aldana, Jasso, Marques de la Mora, Villanueva de Molinar

Becky, Welcome to our group.

As noted with the previous comment, Jalpa is very difficult to gather older family info, as many records that are typically available in most parishes are just not available for Jalpa.

With that said, Apolonio Romero is the son of Antonio Romero and Benancia Cobarrubias. Whether this is your Apolonio Romero is still unclear.

There were not many Apolonio Romero's listed in all the available padrons for Jalpa. In the 1826 Padron, I believe all the smaller nearby areas (such as Santa Ysabel) were included in the Puesto of Acapepesco.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9K8-KRZ3?i=83&cat=230…
On image 84 of 2000 are:
Antonio Romero - Listed first (Normally head of household)
Venancia Cobarrubias - Spouse
Likely children listed were:
Juana Maria Romero
Anna Maria Romero
Jose Apolonio Romero
Maria Josefa Romero
Maria Torivia Romero
The last two children were listed as P (Parbula), All others as A (Adult)

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-T8VJ-K?cc=1804458
In Nochistlan, on 6 January 1838, Apolonio Romero is listed on a intended marriage record with Estefana Duran. The record stated he was from Santa Ysabel (Jalpa) and his age was listed as 24 (born circa 1814). He stated his parents to be Antonio Romero and Benancia Cobarrubias. I took a peak at the Nochistlan 1839 census records for the area she was from (Los Duranes/Duranos), and Apolonio Romero/Estefana Duran were not listed, but her parents/siblings were listed. No further records of these two exist in Nochistlan records.

Proceeding on with Jalpa Census records again.
This census is not properly dated from what I can tell, but believe it is circa 1842.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89K7-WZNK?i=130&cat=23…
Mexico, Jalisco, Arquidiócesis de Guadalajara, padrones
Padrones, Caja 35 letra J, 1649-1825 (Jalpa - circa 1842 - Santa Ysabel)
Image 131 of 1158
(Jose) Apolonio Romero - Head of Household
Estefana Duran - Spouse of Apolonio Romero
Antonio Romero (Father)
Bonifacia (Benancia) Cobarrubias (Spouse of Antonio Romero)
Paula Romero
Silveria Romero
Deonicio Romero
Petra Romero
Valentina Romero

These are the parents/siblings of Apolonio Romero.

Most likely Estefana Duran died before having children and
Apolonio Romero re-married to Maria Jesus Sanchez, where
they remained in the Santa Ysabel, Jalpa area. Some sort
of record would help to bear this out.

Also I uploaded a quick reference list of the various Jalpa Padrons.
This is located in the Files Area (Reference section) and is also
downloadable (in PDF format).

Regards,

Lee

Hello Becky,

Jalpa is a tough one, because of all of the holes in the church records. Doing a general search, those names appear nowhere else, so Apolonio and Maria Jesus were likely born and married in Jalpa. But as you know, there are no marriage records for Jalpa between 1838 and 1864 (marriage informations).

Have you looked at the padrones? These are censuses. They are not indexed, so you have to look through each page to find your names. They usually have head of household and the family group w/ages. I recommend going backwards in years: starting in 1885, look for Apolonio & Ma Jesus, then look at 1846, which was likely before they married - maybe you’ll find them living with their parents. “Apolonio Romero” is a rare name+surname combination, and he was probably the only one with this name in Jalpa during those years. Here are three padrones that he might appear in. There are earlier ones on the same roll:

1885
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9K8-KTWB?i=550&cat=23…
1846
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9K8-KT9F?i=455&cat=23…
1830
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9K8-KRKF?i=391&cat=23…

Hopefully you can find him, and hopefully, his parents married between 1827-1838.

Good luck!
Manny Díez Hermosillo