Hello,
I found a tree for the family of Francisco Prieto Gallardo and Isabel Anda de Altamirando that included a marriage of their daugther Ana (maybe Mariana) with Jose Vargas.
I recently posted (at least I think I did) some information on the Ortiz de San Pedro and the Lopez de Ayala.
Thanks for this, Hector. The Ortiz de San Pedro is in my ancestral line, but I haven't managed to connect them all together, yet. This is good information to have, though, to keep our tree accurate.
Rosalinda
Hector,
Muchas gracias por tus comentarios. Concuerdo contigo en pensar que "algo" esta mal en la informacion que esta en el libro de "Andariegos", en la que se estipula que el padre de Pedro Ortiz de San Pedro (casado con Maria de Esquivel) es Gonzalo Lopez de Ayala y el a su vez es hijo de Pedro de Arevalo y Beatriz Lopez de Ayala. Si esta informacion es correcta me pregunto: Donde esta el Ortiz de San Pedro?? Como obtuvo este apellido??
Estoy en proceso de revisar la informacion que suministraste. Y adquiri los libros que recomendaste (al menos 2 de ellos). Por favor si encuentras alguna otra informacion no dejes de exponerla en el foro.
Y te reitero mi agradecimiento
Saludos
Susana
El apellido Ortiz de San Pedro viene de Juan de San Pedro, minero y comerciante en Zacatecas casado con Catalina López de Ayala, hermana de Beatriz López de Ayala, la de Colima.
Pasó a Nueva España en 1537-3-2 "Juan de Sampedro, hijo de Hernando de Sampedro y de Francisca de Sampedro, vecinos de Astudillo, a Nueva España".
Nuestro Pedro, el casado con María de Esquivel, es a quien Romero de Solís confunde con Pedro de Arévalo y al hermano de nuestro Pedro, Gonzalo López de Ayala (que sí, tuvo un hermano con ese nombre y a quien el apellido López de Ayala le venía de su madre, Catalina López de Ayala) lo confunde con su primo hermano del mismo nombre, el hijo de Beatriz, y ya de ahí mezcla todo.
Nuestro Pedro, que en términos actuales sería "Ortiz de San Pedro y López de Ayala", tuvo un hermano Gonzalo López de Ayala (del que desconozco el paradero) y otro hermano Jerónimo Ortiz, que vivió en Jerez pero de quien no he podido identificar su descendencia.
El apellido Ortiz de San Pedro viene de Juan de San Pedro, minero y comerciante en Zacatecas casado con Catalina López de Ayala, hermana de Beatriz López de Ayala, la de Colima.
Pasó a Nueva España en 1537-3-2 "Juan de Sampedro, hijo de Hernando de Sampedro y de Francisca de Sampedro, vecinos de Astudillo, a Nueva España".
Nuestro Pedro, el casado con María de Esquivel, es a quien Romero de Solís confunde con Pedro de Arévalo y al hermano de nuestro Pedro, Gonzalo López de Ayala (que sí, tuvo un hermano con ese nombre y a quien el apellido López de Ayala le venía de su madre, Catalina López de Ayala) lo confunde con su primo hermano del mismo nombre, el hijo de Beatriz, y ya de ahí mezcla todo.
Nuestro Pedro, que en términos actuales sería "Ortiz de San Pedro y López de Ayala", tuvo un hermano Gonzalo López de Ayala (del que desconozco el paradero) y otro hermano Jerónimo Ortiz, que vivió en Jerez pero de quien no he podido identificar su descendencia.
Buenos días!
En alguna parte del forum he visto que mencionan paertidas de defunción de Tlaltenango de la década de 1630, pero no he podido localizarlas en los microfilmes de familysearch.org. ¿Podría alguien indicarme el número de microfilm en que las puedo encontrar? Estaría muy agradecido.
Saludos!
Héctor Félix Aizcorbe
Hola,
Las defunciones en Tlaltenango para los 1600's estan en familiysearch.org :
Información matrimonial 1701-1724, Defunciones 1626-1650 ---- film # 443843
sus
Third paragraph, fifth line: Certain document refers Gonzalo Lopez de Ayala el Mozo as brother of Pero Ortiz;
Third paragraph, tenth line: Gonzalo Lopez de Ayala el Mozo IS the Gonzalo Lopez de AyaLa the Elder
A few months ago I discovered on Family Search a civil death record from Mexico that I used to establish a relative's death.
I think we need to see both records to determine which is correct.
My grandmother’s family was from Juarez, Chih, but she was born in Mesilla, NM, in 1903; her mother didn’t register her birth in the Mexican civil registry until 1917, and that’s the year it gives as her birth. I figured it was a clerical error, but I’ve seen it happen in other cases.
My grandfather was born in Mexico, but he died in the US; his SS death registry, and even his tombstone, gave his birthdate as 4 Jul 1885, but he was actually born 6 Jul 1883. I’ve seen other cases of wrong birthdates given for Mexicans who migrated to the US.
That said, if everything else matches up - his known birthplace, the names of his parents, etc, then it’s likely the same person. In the pre-Information Age (before computers & internet), discrepancies were more common, especially if the person was born or died abroad.
Good luck!
Manny Diez Hermosillo
In Mexico when you need to file an "acta de defuncion", the first paper that is require is the attending physician certificate that the person actually died. After that you need witnesses not related to the deseased, for the event.
To me it is unlikely that they original certificate from Mexico had the name of the attending physician, they wouldn't require that to bring the body from the US. They would have used the attending physician certificate from the US.
Are you talking about a very common last name??
I hope this helps
sus
Hello Everyone,
Does anyone know where I can find a list of soldiers that we're in Aguascalientes around 1912?
Thank you,
Sofia
Hola a Todos,
So I learned the man I am researching changed his name. Although that could have been done for a myriad of reasons, the family story is that he murdered someone in Zacatecas in the early 1900s.
Hello, any luck on finding out how to research criminal records? I too am not having much luck when trying to research similar information. I am looking for criminal information in Jalisco but have no luck with Ancestry.com or Google. Thank you for your time.
Joan (Juan) Angon sailed from Espana to Nuevo Espana on 1606-6-28
There were many more ships on the 1606 flota:
https://todoavante.es/index.php?title=1606_-_Flota_de_Nueva_Espa%C3%B1a
Enter this reference number in the pars website and it gives a list of pasajeros de traveled in 1606 and Juan Angon is there on page 5:
CONTRATACION,5295
Por cuanto la genealogía de los Dávalos Bracamonte ha sido controversial y confusa me parece importante intentar esclarecerla.
Dear members,
My previous post was in Spanish, regarding the ancestors of Alonso Dávalos (de Avalos) Bracamonte, who was the first Count of Miravalle. I am planning to translate it to English when I have time, but for now I have many another exciting discovery!
In searching for further proof that the 1st Count{s ancestral line was not forged as has been alleged by many, I was overjoyed to find the baptism of his great grandfather, Alonso de Ávalos Saavedra, son of Alonso de Ávalos and Inés de Villagrán. Both the month (day is blacked out by an ink blotch) , the location and the parents all coincide with the copy that was submitted by the Count to become a Knight of Santiago. Here is the link to the baptism in Monbeltrán, Ávila, Spain, 24 Nov 1557.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DTLH-C3?i=21&wc=MXQZ-4…
"En Veinte y quatro dias del mes de noviembre año de 1557 yo el bachiller
Po. herdz. de Sequera vicario en esta villa baptize a alonso hijo de alonso de aba-
los y de ynes de Villagran su legitima mujer fueron sus padrinos Juan Matrin y ma blazquz en cuya fe lo me dho. ut supra'
Po. hernandez de sequera"
Hope this helps!
Sergio Sean Salés
Dear Sergio,
Thank you for sharing this information,
I was a little curious as to why you didn’t mention that this was Leonor De Bracamonte Arias second marriage. Researching her first marriage may clarify any questions you have regarding her ancestry.
You also didn’t mention that Pedro Davalos Bracamonte had a second marriage after Maria de Ulibarri y de la Cuevas passed away. In his second marriage he married a relative named Josefa De Lima Bracamonte.
A daughter of Pedro Davalos Bracamonte and Maria de Ulibarri y de la Cuevas named Francisca married Jose Villaseñor y Cervantes. Descendants from this marriage married their cousins that descended from Leonor de Bracamonte’s first marriage. Some descendants also married their cousins from the Villaseñor side of the family creating a tangled web of family relationships between the Bracamonte, D’Avalos , Villaseñor, and Balbuena families.
Thanks again,
Rick A. Ricci
Dear Sergio,
Your post has a little different information than what I have in my records. Francisco Delgadillo was married twice. I have as his first wife, who is also his niece, as Isabel Davalos Sandoval as the biological mother while you have written that Anna Parra is the mother of Maria Delgadillo Davalos. I have Anna Parra as the stepmother. The first wife, Isabel D’Avalos Sandoval had a prior marriage to Juan Infante Samaniego. There are many records showing Maria D’Avalos as the biological mother as there was a major family dispute over a marriage that required family tree submissions to the Vatican. The family dispute even involved the viceroy’s family.
You posted :
“ isabuelos Paternos
Alonso Davalos Saabedra natural de la Villa de Mombeltran en España
[p. 150 " 'En Veinte y quatro dias del mes de noviembre año de 1557 yo el Bachiler Po. hernandez de
Sequera vicario en esta Villa bautize A Alonso hijo de Alonso de abalos y de ines de Villagran
su legitima mujer fueron sus padrinos Juan Matrin y maria Blazquez en cuya fe lo firme dho. ut supra' Po. hernandez de sequera y al márgen dize Alonso’"]
Y Da. María Delgadillo, natural de la dha Ziud. De Compostela en Indias =
[p. 249 "en la Ciud. de Compostela a Vte. dias del mes de Mayo de mil quinie.tos
y setenta y cinco añs. yo el Li.do. Bartholome de Muñatonis teniente
de cura en esta Sta. iglesia cathedral y Beneficiado en ella Baptize
y puse los oleos a Maria hija de fran.co delgadillo y Da. Ana de la Pa-
rra su muger vezinos desta Ciud. y naturales de Madrid en espa-
na [sic. ]fue su Padrino fernando de la Peña a quen adverti vertila Cogna-
cion espiritual y fueron testigos que se allaron presentes Julian de
Nicaragua y martin de villavieja y lo firme fecho vit supra=
Liz.do Berme de Muñaltonis"]”
I would appreciate your thoughts on this discrepancy.
Rick A.Ricci
Rick,
I have spent a while trying to find original documents that go back into the 1500s, and as you know they are hard to come by. Unfortunately, Compostela in Nayarit does not still have the baptisms of the 1500s. So, as far as the discrepancy you note I have not seen original documents (other than the cited Application to become a Knight of Santiago) for Francisco Delgadillo and Ana de la Parra. I am including the link to the image of the COPY of the baptism of Maria Delgadillo, which I transcribed above.
http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/show/1341108
It is image 249. It also says [fee de Bap.me de la visabula [sic.] Paterna del Pret.e]. So, even though the original in Compostela is likely lost, we have a valuable copy.
And like I said in my original post the other primary documents I have found that were copied in the Application have been copied correctly. An example where both the original and the copy exist would be the baptism of Magdalena de la Cueva (daughter of Francisco Caro Galindo and Isabel de Castro y Mesa=. Though their last names are abbreviated as "Caro" and "de Mesa"). The copy of the baptism is found on the top of the image above. The original is found at:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-2LS6-BG?i=53&wc=3J64-B…
As you can see the copy was accurate though the abbreviations have changed according to the taste of the day.
I would be happy to look over any other original documents you have on Maria Delgadillo.
Thanks!
Sergio
PS I will address your other post separately when I get some time.
Rick,
I have found something that may help somewhat with the question of Maria Delgadillo's mother. As we saw above, there is at least literal copy of her baptism, which shows her to be the daughter of Francisco Delgadillo and Ana de la Parra. I have now found a remarriage in Madrid for Francisco Delgadillo ca. 1596 to Theresa de Benavente, daughter of Juan de Benaventa and Mencia Guerra, all of whom were from Toledo. The date is listed as "dia prim de Pasqua," which may mean the first Sunday AFTER Easter or Easter Sunday. It is supposed to be the last record on the 8th page of the marriage records which start in 1596 and end in 1615, so my assumption is that the marriage took place around Easter 1596. This would be about 20 years after Maria Delgadillo was born per her baptism. This would then support that Ana de la Parra was Maria's mother. It also gives the names of Francisco Delgadillo's parents as Francisco Delgaillo and Catalina de León.
http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/show/1341108?nm
Image 265
It literally reads:
“Fran.co Delgadillo natural de esta Villa, Viudo de Ana de la Parra, hijo de Fran.co Delgadillo y de Catalina de Leon, vez.os q fueron de esta Villa, con Da. Theresa de Benav.te, natural de Toledo, hija de Dn. Jn.o de Benav.te y de Da. Mencia Guerra, natural de dha. Ziu.d Parroquiana de Sn. Nicolas de esta Villa=’y a la margen dia prim de Pasqua= dia leg.do dia de la Trinidad=”
Hope this helps!
Sergio
Great work Sergio,
The other wife that I had in my notes was a D’Avalos. This relationship was supposedly before Anna Parra. So this third wife is a big surprise to me.
Keep up the great work,
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Dear Sergio,
You posted:
“Alonso Davalos Saabedra natural de la Villa de Mombeltran en España
[p. 150 " 'En Veinte y quatro dias del mes de noviembre año de 1557 yo el Bachiler Po. hernandez de
Sequera vicario en esta Villa bautize A Alonso hijo de Alonso de abalos y de ines de Villagran”
Here are my two cents on Alonso’s first marriage to Ines de Ribera
Alonso de Avalos (Davalos) is married to Inés de Ribera. I believe that Inés de Villagran and Inés Ribera are the same person.
In a second marriage Alonso is married to Francisca Estrada Gutierrez, daughter of Alonso Estrada (the self proclaimed son of King Ferdinand) and Marina Gutierrez de la Caballeria. I should add that King Ferdinand el Catolico also called Alonso Estrada his son in front of an audience. Francisca was also married previously. Her first husband is named Luis Villegas.
Important fact to remember: We only know for sure that Ines Ribera (Villagran)is the niece of the Conde de Medellín, but looking at the ancestry of the Conde and his wife, who is also named Ines Ribera, it is most likely that Ines Ribera that is married to Alonso D’Avalos is her biological niece. That would make her a granddaughter of Per Afán de RIbera III adelantado de Mayor de Andalucia and his second wife Maria Mendoza.
Per Afán de RIbera III adelantado de Mayor de Andalucia Is the son of Diego Gomez de Ribera and Beatrice Portocarrero.
Maria Mendoza is the daughter of Iñigo Lopez de Mendoza I Marquez de Santillana and Catalina Suarez de Figueroa.
Thanks again,
Rick A. Ricci
Source : My book Mygenes2000
Rick,
As to your theory that Ines de Ribera and Ines de Villagran I can again neither confirm nor deny. However, I am adding the link and page to the will of Alonso de Avalos (Davalos)Saavedra which was written in Atoyac and is copied in the Application for his great-grandson. It lists Ines de Villagran as his mother.
http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/show/1341108
If the image does not come up it is image #258
I have transcribed it without changes to grammar:
"Y dei nomine amen Sepan qtos. Esta Carta Vieren como Yo Dn. Alonsso Davalos Saabedra, Vez.o y residente que soi desta Pueblo de Athoiaque, y natural de la Villa de Mombeltran en los Reyss. De Castilla hijo legitimo de Alonsso Diaz Davalos ia difunto y de Ines de VillaGran, su muger, mis P.es Vez.os de la dha. Villa de Mombeltran = y al fin del dho f.o Bta prosigue diciendo= Declaro que Yo soi casado, y Velado según horden dela Sta. Me. Iglesia con Da. Ma. Delgadillo hija de Fran.co Delgadillo, y y de Da. Ana de la Parra, naturales que son de la Villa de Madrid, Corte de Su Magd. = Y mas abajo en el fo. 8º. Prosiguiendo dha declaración =dice= Y en este nro. Matrim.o emos tenido tres hijos y dos hijas los quales son Diego Lopez Saabedra, y Dn. Po. Davalos Saabedra = el qual dho. testamento se otorgo en dho Pueblo de Athoiaque ante nueve testigos por no a ver capia de escrivano según consta de dho f.o 8º al fin =
Hope this helps!
Sergio
Hello,
Sus, In my Census Records for Latin America it says to go to the "Archive del Arzobispado de Guadalajara, Mexico" web page.
I see there is a Facebook under the same name. You should become a member there and asked them the question about Zacatecas.
Cecilia Gutierrez Alvarez
Cecilia,
Thank you so much for the idea. I will look for census records at the archives in guadalajara
Thank you again
greetings from seattle
sus
Hello everyone!
I need some help reading where the bride and groom are from (Manuel Flores)
Thank you in advance!!
San Antonio, Tuxcacuesco, Jalisco, Mexico
Rick A. Ricci
I hope this helps you with your research:
Groom : Manuel Flores 18 years old son of Jose Ma. Flores and Vicenta Castillo
Bride: Ma. Estanislao Mariscal 17 years old daughter of Casildo Mariscal and Ma. Catarina Cadena she is originally from Sayula but for the last 7 years she has lived in Tuxcacuesco.
jose casildo mariscal and maria catarina cadena had their marriage on :12 January 1835 in Sayula Jalisco, México
Here are more family members:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/M7Y6-KG7
This may be the groom’s parents:
José María Flores is the son of Luciano Flores and Maria Pascuala Ramirez married 7 May 1792 in Nutra Sra de Gpe., Guadalajara, Jalisco
Rick A. Ricci
Does anyone have Mariano Olmos in there tree? If so...I've been trying for months to figure out who Mercedes Saldivar's parents are. I THOUGHT she may have come from the Duran's, but not sure.
Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,
could someone tell me what the last name of the mothers of Gertrudis de
Udave and Cristobal de Chaves are?
Hi Danny
I read it as:
Xptobal (Cristóbal) de Chaves hijo legítimo de Bernardo de Chaves y de Antonia Ines (Yañez), españoles con Gertrudis Udabe hija legítima de Isidro de Udabe y de Maria de la Rosa Lopez
In the margin it has Gertrudis de Udave as 'tresalba'
Hasta pronto
Austin Perez
your comment that it might be tresalba was interesting.. I googled it found this
tresalba
1. Having three white feet (caballo).
I would think that means 3 Espanol parents and 1 Yndio or Mulato
interesting I thought
Linda in Olympia
Hi Linda,
Thanks for clarifying tresalva. This caste designation has been discussed in previous posts like the one below from Bill Figueroa.
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/17693: The words "tresalva" (derived from TRES=3 and ALBA=white) and "castiza" are synonymous, meaning three quarters white (española) and one part indian.
Austin
Austin,
Thank you, this is very helpful. I'll add them to the Wikitree.
Danny C. Alonso
Hola Danny!
The parents of Gertrudis de Udave are: Ysidro (Isidro) de Udabe (Udabe) and Maria (de la) Rosa Lopez de la Serda.
The parents of Xptobal de Chaves are: Bernardo de Chaves, Anttonia Ines (?)
All Españoles and residents off Teocaltiche, Jalisco, Mexico.
I don’t think Antonia Ines’s surname is Esparza. I think that is “Espan.s” following her name = Espanoles
But I could be wrong…just my take on it.
Gertrudis's parents are the earliest patriarchs of nine Udave/Udabe lineages from Teocalitche > Arroyo Seco > Paso de Sotos (later renamed Villa Hidalgo) locations in Jalisco. And they are my 8th great grandparents, maternal side.
Consuelo Udave
PS: I have a large database of 1000-1200 individuals in these Udave lineages. If you have any other Udave individuals you might be researching, I’d be happy to look for them in my database and share andy information I might have. Unfortunately, I’ve hit a brick wall with Isidro & Rosa…I believe the church records may be missing or…???? I have their names (only) from several marriage records for their children, beginning circa 1730.
> On Feb 11, 2016, at 6:36 PM, Danny Alonso wrote:
>
> Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,
>
> could someone tell me what the last name of the mothers of Gertrudis de
> Udave and Cristobal de Chaves are?
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-7SS3-F4?i=66&wc=3JFF-929%3…
>
>
> Danny C. Alonso
Danny,
It could be Xtobal de Chavez, HL de Bernardo de Chavez y de Antta Ines
Esparza con Gertrudis Udave, Hija Legitima de Isidro de Udave y de Maria de
la Rossa Lopez. This is my best guess. Let's see what other guesses you
have from the group.
Alicia
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:36 PM, Danny Alonso wrote:
> Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,
>
> could someone tell me what the last name of the mothers of Gertrudis de
> Udave and Cristobal de Chaves are?
>
>
>
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-7SS3-F4?i=66&wc=3JFF-929%3…
>
>
> Danny C. Alonso
Thank you Alicia. and Consuelo. these are my first Udave's I've come across
in my ancestry. thank you for your help.
Danny C. Alonso
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:10 PM, Alicia Carrillo
wrote:
> Danny,
>
> It could be Xtobal de Chavez, HL de Bernardo de Chavez y de Antta Ines
> Esparza con Gertrudis Udave, Hija Legitima de Isidro de Udave y de Maria de
> la Rossa Lopez. This is my best guess. Let's see what other guesses you
> have from the group.
>
> Alicia
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:36 PM, Danny Alonso
> wrote:
>
> > Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,
> >
> > could someone tell me what the last name of the mothers of Gertrudis de
> > Udave and Cristobal de Chaves are?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-7SS3-F4?i=66&wc=3JFF-929%3…
> >
> >
> > Danny C. Alonso
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
Out of curiosity, Danny, can you tell me where this couple fits into your ancestry? Also, I have some Alonso's in my ancestry. I've found that my Alonso surnames appear to be interchangeable with Salas in a number of records...over time. And, I haven't a clue why this might be??? Have you come across anything like this any where in your research?
Consuelo
Sent from my iPad
> On Feb 11, 2016, at 8:20 PM, Danny Alonso wrote:
>
> Thank you Alicia. and Consuelo. these are my first Udave's I've come across
> in my ancestry. thank you for your help.
>
> Danny C. Alonso
>
> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 7:10 PM, Alicia Carrillo
> wrote:
>
>> Danny,
>>
>> It could be Xtobal de Chavez, HL de Bernardo de Chavez y de Antta Ines
>> Esparza con Gertrudis Udave, Hija Legitima de Isidro de Udave y de Maria de
>> la Rossa Lopez. This is my best guess. Let's see what other guesses you
>> have from the group.
>>
>> Alicia
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 6:36 PM, Danny Alonso
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,
>>>
>>> could someone tell me what the last name of the mothers of Gertrudis de
>>> Udave and Cristobal de Chaves are?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-7SS3-F4?i=66&wc=3JFF-929%3…
>>>
>>>
>>> Danny C. Alonso
>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>>> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>>>
>>> To post, send email to:
>>> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>>>
>>> To change your subscription, log on to:
>>> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>>>
Consuelo,
Cristobal de Chavez and Gertrudis de Udave are the parents of Juana Manuela
de Chavez that married Geronimo de Mendoza, the son of the chieftain Blas
de Mendoza who is my ancestor. ive never seen Salas with any of my
Alonso's. mine are all Alonso de los Hinojos.
Danny C. Alonso
Consuelo,
I have a bunch of de la cerdas in my genealogy and was wondering if you had
any idea houghts about who Maria de la Rosa Lopez de la Cerda's parents are
Danny C. Alonso
Hi Danny,
It's been a long time since I've been in Nuestros! I just saw your post above!
My apologies for not answering before now...
I wish I knew who Rosa's parents were. Sadly, I have yet to locate any actual documents for her or Ysidro de Udabe in any Jalisco church records! I realize that we've been researching common ancestors for the past 10 years, so we're likely to be distantly related. If I ever come up with some documentation for Rosa or Ysidro (my maternal 8th GG grandparents, I'll get in touch!!
Consuelo Udave
Hi all, thanks to George Fulton I was able to extend my tree a couple generations more, I want to ask if anyone has info on these
Anyone have Mariano Olmos in there tree? If so...I've been trying for months to figure out who Mercedes Saldivar's parents are. I THOUGHT she may have come from the Duran's, but not sure. My GEDmatch number is KK6796917, my Father's is LM2514076, my Father is an Aguilar Saldivar, my Paternal Great Grandfather was Higinio Saldivar Macias (under Zaldivar or Saldivar Macias in documents), he was married to my Great Grandma Luciana Navarro Huizar, his Father was Atanasio Saldivar Duran who married MA del Refugio Macias. Then my 3rd GG was Esteban Saldivar Esqueda with Bacilia Duran, and the family goes on from there. I know Mercedes married Mariano S. Olmos who was also married to Maria Luevano...but I can't figure out who Mercedes' parents are...anyone know? I've searched everywhere! The baptismal records, the marriage records, and nothing. TIA!!
Daniel,
To date, most of my ancestors are from Nochistlan, they include, Avelar, Aguayo, Duran, Ruiz, Ruiz de Esparza, Ortega, Munos, Bermejo, Olmos, Jauregui, Rubalcava, Olasaba, Garcia.
My father's lines were Avelar Aguayo, Garcia, Munos, Duran, Bermejo from El Monte de los Duranes in Nochistlan Zacatecas.
I have several lines of Duran, Munos, Aguayo, Ruiz de Esparza and Olmos, these are the most prominent lines that repeat over and over again. Having said all this, I am not as far back in my research as you appear to be, therefore my information would be of little value to you as it's still in the 1800's. Maybe some day when I have more time to dedicate to research, I'll be able to touch on some of your lines.
Saludos,
Alicia..San Jose, Ca.
________________________________
From: "mendezdelcamino@live.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2009 7:27:51 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Teocaltiche and Nochistlan Help
Hi all, thanks to George Fulton I was able to extend my tree a couple generations more, I want to ask if anyone has info on these
Eugenio Lozano was son of Jose Lozano and Petronila Gonzalez aka Petrona de Macias y Valades, aka Petronila de Retamosa. What puzzles me is how did Petronila use Macias, Gonzalez and Retamosa, Her ancestor was prob the famous Retamosa matriarch.I found their marriage in Teocaltiche 23 feb 1666. Havent been able to order it, wonder if anyone has Teocalitche films or has these records. On the other side Maria Duron (Duran) daughter of Jose Andres Duran and Juana Asencion Vasquez y Sandoval. Andres is son of Juan Simon Duran and Regina de Aguayo. Does anyone have info on these Nochistlan Families? Aguayo, Duran, Vasquez and Sandoval. Thanks, Daniel
My Duran and Bermejo lines are from Monte de los Duran and Monte de los Yáñez. I have
Aguayo, Duran, Ruiz de Esparza. The Bermejos were a prominant Spanish family along with the Esparzas, they could (Bermejo) be found througout all Los Altos and Aguascalientes, their original compound name was González de Bermejo. I just got into Nochistlan a couple of weeks ago. I found that my ancestor from southern Los Altos came from Nochistlan.
-Regards, Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Alicia and/or Daniel,
Do you have any info. the Olmos family from Nochistlan? I have a person on my tree by the name of Maximiano Silva or Saldivar Olmos that possibly came from Nochistlan or Teocaltiche. Unfortunatley that's all the info I have on him.
Maximiano Silva/Saldivar Olmos
Birth
13 Aug 1921 in ? , Zacatecas, Mexico
Death
27 Mar 2005 in Hacienda de La Luz, Huanusco, Zacatecas, México
Resting
Hacienda de La Luz, Huanusco, Zacatecas
and taking advantage of your time I'm also looking any info of Ancestors of Juan Silva/Saldivar Ramirez. Daniel you mentioned that he is son of Pedro Silva and Angela Ramirez if you have more info. I would greatly appreciate it.
Juan Silva/Saldivar Ramirez
Birth
01 Jan 1901 in ? , Zacatecas, Mexico
Death
10 Mar 1994 in La Presa, Calvillo, Aguascalientes, Mexico
Resting
Hacienda de La Luz, Huanusco, Zacatecas
Supposedly Juan Silva was Maximiano's uncle and no one knows exactly where they came from.
Any help will be appreciated.
Victor Renteria
Hi Victor, how did you come across the dates for Juan or Maximiliano!? For Huanusco and Tabascothe LDS church did not microfilm 1921-1928. I looked have looked at 1901 for "el registro civil"now that I think of it, I could have skipped Juan Silva! shoot. At the time I was not aware of theseguys. Plus the whole Silva/Saldivar thing adds another thing to watch out. Around March, Im goingto order the microfilm for the Tabasco church north of Huanusco. Bautismos 1900-1903I have not seen this film yet, so Ill be sure to look out for Juan Silva/Saldivar. Yes, according toall of Juan's children's certificates they state, ....abuelos paternos: Pedro Silva y Angela Ramirez....Abuelos Maternos: don Victoriano Renteria y dona Luisa Garcia. Victoriano's mother was alsoa Silva. Dona Alejandra Silva.
I connected the Elodia Ruiz de Esparza from La Luz to the other Ruiz de Esparza, these two linesof La Luz-Calvillo come from Andres Ruiz de Esparza who had Mariana Ruiz de Esparzawho married Romauldo Lopez de Elizalde. (This is where the Elizaldes of La Luz come from)Then Mariana had a brother named Santana (Jose de Santa Ana) Ruiz de Esparza who marriedMarta Ortiz. These are Elodia's grandparents. I went haywired when I discovered both Esparza linesof La Luz were related. It seems they were all related even before La Luz, even before Calvillo.
If the dates you got were from records who were in possession of someone else they shouldinclude the parents names, grandparents names etc. You could ask for those?
-Primo Daniel Camino
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/
What's up Primo Daniel!
It's always nice to read your comments. I got Juan and Maximiano Silva/Saldivar dates from their tombstones when I went to La Hacienda de La Luz last year. Hope their parents and ancestors show on those films. That will be a the biggest find that everyone was waiting for in La Luz and the Silva/Saldivar Family. Their Children don't know or don't want to talk about their Grandparents. I'm positive they don't know where they originated from. Would it be to much trouble to send me their children's certificates?
Wow so my Great Grandmother was actually a Ruiz de Esparza, nice to know all this stuff Daniel! More familia to add to the tree. Thanks again Daniel!
Victor Renteria
I might be able to send the stuff you want around Winter break so in about two weeks? Im
Super busy!!!! I recall my grandfather also did not know where "these" other silva came from.
I just know Juan Silva was part of the Cristero movement and hunged Amelia Camino's husband
Baldomero de Sandoval. The only thing I know of Elodia description wise she was very beautiful.
Elodia is actually double Ruiz de Esparza! (ha ha). Oh yeah....Rumor has it there is a portrait of
Mariano and Arcadia somewhere? I would kill and pay money for that!
-Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/
Daniel yes, if you can that will be great. It's going to be interesting to find the other Silvas. So the Cristeros hanged Amelia Camino's husband or Juan Silva personally?
Elodia being double Ruiz de Esparza, I'm not surprised anymore and for the portrait of Mariano and Arcadia can't wait to see it, that will be awesome.
What do you know of the Olmos family?
Victor Renteria
Primo Daniel,
I'm having a hard time understanding why is Romauldo a Lopez (1st Surname) de Elizalde (2nd surnmae)? how is los Elizalde from La Luz using their 2nd surname and not Lopez? Confused :-/
Victor Renteria
Its a compound last name very popular with the Spanish. You can totally see the same guyuse Lopes or Elisalde, Lisalde, Lizalde, Lopes de Elisalde. It's crazy. I dont think Romauldo used Lopesbut his father did hence why I just put Lopez for Romauldo, it might have dropped with him buthe was prob baptized as Lopes de Elisalde. With La Luz we totally dropped the Lopes by the time it reached us around the mid-late 1800s. Lopes de Elizalde was the whole thing as one last name it is compound. So if say Jose Lopez de Elizalde married MariaGonzalez de HErmosillo. Their child Martin would be Martin Lopez de Elizalde extact as the dad. It was prob popular in formalsituations to say Martin Lopez de Elizalde y Gonzalez de Hermosillo. With time people adopted different versions of the samehence, Lisalde, Lizalde, Lisarde (might be priest mistake) Elisalde, Elizalde. Im pretty sure Valentin Elizalde, the singer is relative (distantly) of the same Elizalds. He was born in Chihuahua, the E
lizaldes were well established in the 1700s in Northern Mexico, but were seated in Aguascalientes. From they flourished into Los Altos de JAlisco, the rest of Aguascalientes, SLP, and Zacatecas the nseveral lines poured into Chihuahua.
-Daniel
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: dirtyworklandscape@sbcglobal.net
> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 17:26:06 -0800
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Romauldo Lopez de Elizalde
>
> Primo Daniel,
>
> I'm having a hard time understanding why is Romauldo a Lopez (1st Surname) de Elizalde (2nd surnmae)? how is los Elizalde from La Luz using their 2nd surname and not Lopez? Confused :-/
>
> Victor Renteria
Thanks Daniel for the detailed explanation, it makes more sense now.
Victor Renteria
Daniel,
How do you know that Petronila de Retamosa is the same as Petrona Macías
Valadez, aka Petrona González de Gardea? I'm not sure the 23 Feb 1666
marriage of Joseph Lozano to Petronila de Retamosa in Teocaltiche is for the
same couple. Hopefully you have positive identification.
Eugenio Lozano married María Durán Vázquez ca. Feb 1697 probably in
Nochistlán. The Durán family is from Nochistlán and marriages were usually
at the bride's hometown. For additional information about the Durán family
see the book "Nochistlán, Zacatecas. Su Parroquia, Los Durán y otras
Familias antiguas. Estudio Histórico-Genealógico" by Ing. Jesús Durán
Rodríguez (1991). A wonderful book, but unfortunately out of print. Mr.
Durán Rodríguez died a few years ago.
Durán and Durón are totally different surnames, both found in
Aguascalientes. Make sure you don't confuse them. What information are you
looking for? I may be able to help you.
Bill Figueroa
Hi Bill, well I was looking for baptismal records and I found these
10. MARIA LOSANO MASIAS - International Genealogical Index / ME
Gender: Female Christening: 17 MAR 1688 El Sagrario, Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico
11. JUAN ANTONIO LOSANO MACIAS - International Genealogical Index / ME
Gender: Male Christening: 21 JAN 1685 El Sagrario, Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico
12. MANUEL LOSANO MACIAS - International Genealogical Index / ME
Gender: Male Christening: 29 JAN 1677 El Sagrario, Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico
Unless, both Petronilas were married to a Joseph Lozano.
the Informacion Matrimonial lists Petronila as Gonzalez, thanks to Georgr Fulton and his amazing work for Aguascalientes he found my Eugenio Lozano and Maria de Duran info matrimonial 15 Jan 1697.
Eugenio de Lozano, esp. hijo lex. de JnO. (Juan) de Lozano y Petrona (Petronila) Gonzalez.
...Maria Duran esp. hija lex. J. Andres Duran y Juana Vasquez.
Next I searched for Jose Lozano and Petronila Gonzalez...took a while looking for Aguas but finally tried Jalisco and boom, Joseph de Lozano and Petronila de Retamosa. 23 Feb 1666 in Teocaltiche. SO I figured The woman are the same, then I searched on IGI and just tried Jose Lozano and Petronila (didnt use her surnames, b/c she had so many) and the 3 Aguascalientes children (shown above) showed her as Macias 3 times in Aguascalientes with the father being also Joseph de Lozano.
Who was Petrona Macias Valades aka Petrona Gonzalez Gardea married to?
Not sure I keep seeing Duran and Duron used constantly with the same family, In Maria's daughter it showed Barbara Theresa de Lozano hija lex....de Maria Duron on the info matrimonial of Maria (Duran) and Eugenio Lozano it shows Duran.
Well I guess you can tell me the Petrona Macias Valades Gonzalez Gardea and info about her and if possible maybe you have in your database the marriage, Jose Lozano and Petronila Retamosa. How do they connect to the old Spanish families. Many Thanks, Ill look for the book you suggested on Google Books. -Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Daniel,
Petronila de Retamosa, who married Joseph Lozano, could possibly be the same
as Petrona Macías Valadez, aka Petrona González de Gardea. I just don't
have any solid proof to confirm it. However, the marriage fits the timeline
and there were family ties between the Macías Valadez and Retamosa families.
Here is a list of children for Joseph Lozano and Petrona Macías Valadez, aka
Petrona González de Gardea (not in cronological order):
1) María Lozano Macías - Bapt. 17 Mar 1688 in Aguascalientes
2) Juan Antonio Lozano Macías - Bapt. 21 Jan 1685 in Aguascalientes.
Married Josepha de Figueroa ca. Dec 1710, probably in San Luis Potosí (see
Información Matrimonial).
3) Manuel Lozano Macías - Bapt. 29 Jan 1677 in Aguascalientes. Married
Juana de Chávez 10 Feb 1698 in Aguascalientes.
4) Eugenio Lozano Macías - Born ca. 1672 probably in Aguascalientes. Have
not found his baptismal record. He married María Durán Vazquez ca. 15 Jan
1697, probably in Nochistlán, Zac. María Durán Vázquez was baptized 28 Apr
1678 in Nochistlán. She was the daughter of Joseph Andrés Durán Aguayo and
Juana de la Ascención Vázquez de Sandoval.
5) Juana Lozano Macías, aka Juana González de Gardea - Born ca. 1670
(probably in Teocaltiche). Have not found her baptismal record. She
married Sebastián de Ulloa 25 May 1696 in Aguascalientes.
6) Gertrudis Lozano Macías - Bapt. 6 Jan 1670 in Aguascalientes. Married
Diego de Aguayo 12 Jan 1696 in Aguascalientes.
7) Cecilia Lozano Macías - Bapt. 4 Jan 1672 in Aguascalientes.
8) Juan Lozano Macías - Bapt. 21 Aug 1679 in Aguascalientes.
9) Cristóbal Lozano Macías - Bapt. 20 Apr 1681 in Aguascalientes. Married
María de Rubalcava 17 Jan 1704 in Aguascalientes.
10) Joseph Lozano Macías - Bapt. 30 May 1683 in Aguascalientes.
BILL FIGUEROA
Who did Petrona Macias Valades aka: gonzalez de Gardea married? -Daniel
_________________________________________________________________
Check my message of August 26th -Bill Figueroa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel Mendez del Camino"
To: "Patty Hoyos"
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Teocaltiche and Nochistlan Help
Who did Petrona Macias Valades aka: gonzalez de Gardea marry? -Daniel
Hola primos, estoy buscando el testamento de Luis Fletes que murió el 11 de mayo de 1796 en Juchitlán Jalisco. La acta de defunción indica que había hecho su testamento.
Pariente,
Yo no he visto ningún testamento en family search ni en ancestry. Yo soy descendiente de Joachin Fletes de Tecolotlan. No sé si Martín Fletes era el papá de el. Creo que Luis Fletes puede que sea hermano o sobrino de Joachin.
Hola nachOmax, Yo tengo a Joachin Fletes (nacio 1721) como hijo de Martin Fletes ,Joachin es hermano de Tadeo Fletes(1715) el padre de Luis Fletes (1758). Luis puede ser sobrino de Joachin que mencionas.
En familysearch hay una cantidad considerable de Testamentos en Guadalajara, pero no han sido indexados. He encontrado entre ellos testamentos de otros pueblos como San Sebastian, Compostela y Autlan. Sospecho que habrá testamentos de Tecolotlán, pero será una tarea larga encontrarlos. He empezado a catalogarlos pero va a tardar...
Aqui estan solo los primeros:
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/198356?availability=Family%…
Saludos,
Sergio
Hola Sergio, si encontré testamentos de Tecolotlán pero no los que esperaba. Tengo tiempo ahora para mirar un poco más. Tal vez buscaré diferentes fechas. Es posible que el testamento se haya hecho mucho antes.
Gracias
J.Fletes
Hola primo- No estoy familiarizada con este tema, pero tal vez podrian estar en el area de los testamentos de la Diócesis de Guadalajara?
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/130231?availability=Family%…
Suerte con tu busqueda.
-Minerva
Gracias Minerva, ya revisé el archivo sin suerte. Parece que se saltan la fecha que estoy buscando.
Estimados señores:
The following is taken from the Almanach de Gotha, Annuaire Genealogique, Diplomatique et Statistique ed. 1900
Justus Perthes:
The Almanach de Gotha was the unassailable directory of world-wide nobility and royalty.
Condes de Miravalle
Viscondes de Villarraez
La casa de los condes de Miravalle era la que es hoy Hotel del Bazar,
Calle del Espiritu Santo numero 8.
Titulos concedidos el 18 de diciembre de 1690
1er. Conde
don Pedro Alonso Avalos Bracamonte, era descendiente de don Alvaro de Bracamonte y de dona Francisca de Arias, su esposa; siendo esta, dona Francisca, una de las hijas de dona Leonor de Arias y del Capitan don Pedro Ruiz de Haro, conquistador y poblador del Estado de Jalisco y de la nobilisima familia de Guzman, Caballero de Santiago y primer Rector de la Cofradia de Aranzazu, caso con dona Francisca Orozco y Castilla, y tuvieron por hijo al
2o Conde
don Jose Justo Avalos, Caballero de Santiago; murio sin sucesion y heredo el titulo su hermana la
3 a Condesa
dona Maria Catarina Avalos y Orozco, caso con don Antonio de Trebuesto, Alvarado y Velasco, Caballero de Alcantara, y tuvieron por hijo al
4o Conde
don Justo de Trebuesto Avalos, Alguacil Mayor de la Santa Cruzada, caso con dona Juana Andrade Moctezuma, Mellaso y Riva de Neyra, hija de don Felipe Miguel Andrade Moctezuma y Apresa, y de dona Maria Antonia Mellado y Reva de Neyra; (nieta del Capitan don Pedro Andrade Moctezuma, dona Antonia Apresa y de la Gandara, don Jose de Mellado y Riva de Neyra, dona Maria Rincon Gallardo y Luna), caso en segundas nupcias con dona Mariana Picazo y Carranza, y tuvieron por hijo al
5o Conde
don Pedro de Trebuesto y Avalos, Andrade Moctezuma, caso con dona Maria Angustias Casadola, y tuvieron por hija a la
6a Condesa
dona Mercedes Trebuesto, Casasola, Avalos, Orozco, Espinosa de los Monteros y Moctezuma, caso con don Lorenzo Serrano (hijo de don Jose Pablo Serrano y de dona Maria Manuela de Coste), y tuvieron por hijo unico al
7o Conde
don Aureliano Serrano y Trebuesto, Gentilhombre de la Camara de S.M. con ejercicio( natural y vecino de la ciudad de Granada, en Espana), caso con dona Fernanda Gavarre, Perez del Pulgar, y tuvieron por hijo al
8o Conde
don Jose Serrano y Gavarre, Consul de Mexico en Granada, Espana.
The current holder of the title of conde de Miravalle is XII Condesa de Miravalle- dona Maria del Carmen Henriquez de Luna y del Mazo, nacida en Granada el dia 7 marzo de 1920. Sucedio en el Condado de Miravalle por autorizacion de la Diputacion Permanende de la Grandeza de Espana el ano 1946, confirmada por el Ministerio de Justicia el 17 de marzo de 1950 (Real Orden del B.O. de 20 de julio de 1950).
You might find it interesting the area of Mexico City known as la Condesa y Roma were part of the Condesa de Miravalle's hacienda. The Condesa and Roma district of Mexico City is a residential and restaurant area on both sides of Insurgentes avenue (Condesa on the west side, Roma on the east side) between Viaducto Miguel Alemán in the south and Avenida Chapultepec in the north. It's a large area with mostly Art Deco architecture, large parks, and a relaxed atmosphere. La Condesa, an area consisting of several colonias on the west side of Avenida Insurgentes, was at one time an extremely fashionable part of Mexico City, particularly during the Golden Age of Mexican cinema in the 1940s and 1950s when it was home to many film stars.
don Daniel, I hope this will be helpful to you in your study of the Condado de Miravalle. Please let me know if you need information on the 9th through the 11th condes de Miravalle.
Christopher Barrios de Leon
Estimado Christopher:
Gracias por tu ayuda. Me has ayudado continuamente a cuanto la genealogía de diversas familias.
Estos mismos datos también están incluidos en la obra de Ortega y Pérez-Gallardo quien en aquel entonces era “considerado” el ‘Cronista Rey de Armas’ aunque México ya no tenía monarquía, intentó de reunir la aristocracia mexicana. Supongo que don Ricardo pasó la información al Almanach de Gotha que está publicado anualmente.
Si encontré que el primer conde Alonso era bautizado en Compostela el 22 de enero de 1645 hijo de Pedro de Ávalos y Bracamonte y María Ulibarri de la Cueva.
Quisiera saber los dos liñajes que tiene el segundo conde Pedro Alonso de Ávalos e Hijar Bracamontes por línea materna era nieto de Alonso Espinosa de los Monteros y María de Híja y Orendáin esta hija del reconocido Francisco de Orendáin y María de Híjar Bracamontes vecinos de Guadalajara. ¿Quiénes son los padres de María de Híjar?
Luego el primer conde era nieto de Juan de Ávalos y Juana de Hijar y Bracamontes. ¿Quiénes son los padres de Juana de Híjar? He escuchado varios opiniones diferentes por lo cual todavía no tengo confianza en el liñaje. Después de estas dos damas.
Soy pariente más cercano al tercer conde por su lado materno que es Orozco o Villaseñor-Cervantes. Cuya familia dejo descendencia en todo la Nueva Galicia y el Obispado de Michoacán.
Dígame si estoy en error en algún dato
Daniel Méndez-Camino
Estimado Daniel,
Te aviso que el primer Conde de Miravalle, cuando presentó sus pruebas para
ser Caballero de Santiago, puso puras mentiras. Esto lo puedes comprobar muy
fácilmente, pues el historiador y genealogista Guillermo Lohmann Villena
publicó su expediente en su obra "Los Americanos en las Ordenes Nobiliarias"
reeditado recientemente en Madrid, 1993, en dos volúmenes. Don Alonso, puso
en sus pruebas que sus líneas Híjar y Bracamonte correspondían a gente
bautizada en la Parroquia de San Gil en Madrid, lo cual es totalmente falso,
pues los de esa familia, entonces residían en las Minas de Resurrección y
Ostotipaquillo en el Reino de la Nueva Galicia. Esto ocurría en los siglos
XVII y XVIII. ¡Imagínate que desde entonces ya se practicaba la
genealogía-ficción!!!
Yo tengo localizado y estudiado el testamento de María de Híjar y
Bracamonte, como viuda de Orendain. Es un documento importantísimo, pues ahí
se explican muchas filiaciones y errores anteriores. Debo de publicarlo.
Saludos
Guillermo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Daniel
Méndez Camino
Enviado el: Martes, 29 de Marzo de 2011 12:52 p.m.
Para: Nuestros Ranchos
Asunto: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Condes de Miravalle
Estimado Christopher:
Gracias por tu ayuda. Me has ayudado continuamente a cuanto la genealogía de
diversas familias.
Estos mismos datos también están incluidos en la obra de Ortega y
Pérez-Gallardo quien en aquel entonces era considerado el Cronista Rey de
Armas aunque México ya no tenía monarquía, intentó de reunir la
aristocracia mexicana. Supongo que don Ricardo pasó la información al
Almanach de Gotha que está publicado anualmente.
Si encontré que el primer conde Alonso era bautizado en Compostela el 22 de
enero de 1645 hijo de Pedro de Ávalos y Bracamonte y María Ulibarri de la
Cueva.
Quisiera saber los dos liñajes que tiene el segundo conde Pedro Alonso de
Ávalos e Hijar Bracamontes por línea materna era nieto de Alonso Espinosa de
los Monteros y María de Híja y Orendáin esta hija del reconocido Francisco
de Orendáin y María de Híjar Bracamontes vecinos de Guadalajara. ¿Quiénes
son los padres de María de Híjar?
Luego el primer conde era nieto de Juan de Ávalos y Juana de Hijar y
Bracamontes. ¿Quiénes son los padres de Juana de Híjar? He escuchado varios
opiniones diferentes por lo cual todavía no tengo confianza en el liñaje.
Después de estas dos damas.
Soy pariente más cercano al tercer conde por su lado materno que es Orozco o
Villaseñor-Cervantes. Cuya familia dejo descendencia en todo la Nueva
Galicia y el Obispado de Michoacán.
Dígame si estoy en error en algún dato
Daniel Méndez-Camino
Daniel and Christopher,
I see now where some of the confusion lay as far as who the first count of Miravalle was. As I noted in my post a few days ago, the first Count of Miravalle was Alonso Dávalos Bracamonte (1645-c. 1722), son of Pedro de Avalos Bracamonte and Maria de Ulibarri. However, the Gotha Almanac lists Alonso's SON, Pedro Alonso Davalos Bracamonte as the 1st count. So, the debate about the 1st count's geneaology is actually about the 2nd count's genealogy. Evidence of the fact that Alonso was the first count is in my original post, but further evidence can be found below on image#7, where Pedro Alonso's father is listed in 1699 as "Conde de Miravalle." This document is the application for Pedro Alonso to become a knight of Santiago, that was essentially submitted at the same time as his father and brother{s application to also become a knight of Santiago. But of course the geneaology would differ on the maternal side, which then also gives the ancestors of Alonso Davalos Bracamonte's wife, the Countess Maria Catalina Hijar Espinoza de los Monteros.
http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/catalogo/show/1341110?nm
Below is the marriage record for the Alonso Davalos and Maria Catalina Hijar. Interestingly, she is listed as "de Ijar Espinoza," even though her father was
an Espinoza de los Monteros and her mother an Híjar. The geneaology for their son clarifies where they are both from, Cadiz and Guadalajara (Jal) respectively.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-5T9S-1?i=810&wc=3P6L-3…
That much for now.
Cheers!
Sergio Sean Salés
Post moved to the other thread.
Estimado Daniel,
En cuanto al comentario de no saber porque de Ávalos se hizo Dávalos. Simplemente hicieron la contracción de la preposición y el apellido para que fuera mas corto y fácil de pronunciar y escribir. Es el mismo apellido. Pasó lo mismo con el apellido de Ávila que también es Dávila.
Armando
Awhile back someone posted a link to "Mexican ranches."
I cannot remember if it was for the country of Mexico or for selected states & or towns.
What maps are you looking for ? Is their a certain map?
Specifically about the ranches in Nueva Galicia...through the years. I know the boundaries changed often. It would be awesome if there were a map of the comiendos of New Spain.
a map of Santa Maria de Los Angeles, Jalisco.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 6:09 PM wrote:
> What maps are you looking for ? Is their a certain map?
>
Hi Marty,
There is a thread on this from 2 days ago started by Brenda but here are the two links someone pasted on there.
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/24303
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/2443
Thank you,
Esther
Thanks. I wish I had jotted down sources and other bits of info that I encountered when I first started researching.
I found an entry in a book that states that her maternal grandparents were
from Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Andalucía.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8rFnC58v-S8C&lpg=PA66&ots=ML5eH1V18t&d…
I finally found what you were referring to -
You're welcome. And for those of you out there who have ancestry from Los
Altos, you can also claim a parentesco with Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Her
great-grandfather, Diego Ramirez de Santillana-Arellano, is also the
ancestor of many, many alteños. Another son of his named Gonzalo settled in
Jalostotitlan and got intertwined with the Mendoza lineage establishing the
Ramirez de Mendoza lineage.
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2005Dec/msg00477.html
On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 AM, wrote:
> Thanks. I wish I had jotted down sources and other bits of info that I
> encountered when I first started researching.
> I have a diego vargas machuca married to a maria ramirez de hermosillo in
> about 1684 that a daughter named rosA francisco vargas machuca ( died 21jul
> 1751). Rosa married diego gonz rubio in 1708.
> Sor juanas maternal grandparents I have listed as pedro ramirez de
> sAntillana and beatriz ramirez rendon. Isabel was born about 1627 and died
> in 1688.
> ------Original Message------
> From: ed@serros.net
> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 9:51 PM
>
> I have the same information as Armando courtesy of the Octavio Paz book,
> Sor Juana, pg. 64-65. Father of Sor Juana: Pedro Manuel De Asbaje y Vargas,
> "a Basque...and nothing else known about him." The father is an enigma and a
> source of great speculation by Octavio Paz with respect to the character of
> Sor Juana, as I recall. The "criolla" mother: Dona Isabel Ramirez de
> Santillana. The origins of Isabel per Paz agree with Armando.
>
> I don't recall any reference to Los Altos and Sor Juana. I took a quick
> look at the Paz book again and I see no references to that area but I could
> be wrong. There is nothing in the index.
>
> Ed
Thank you.
I do have gonzalo ramirez de santillana arellAno, son of diego ramirez. Santillana arellano and Ines Brenes. I have gonzalo as being born in san lucar barameda, andalucia also
Do you have any more info on diego and ines?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Armando
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:00:04
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
I found an entry in a book that states that her maternal grandparents were
from Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Andalucía.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8rFnC58v-S8C&lpg=PA66&ots=ML5eH1V18t&d…
I finally found what you were referring to -
You're welcome. And for those of you out there who have ancestry from Los
Altos, you can also claim a parentesco with Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Her
great-grandfather, Diego Ramirez de Santillana-Arellano, is also the
ancestor of many, many alteños. Another son of his named Gonzalo settled in
Jalostotitlan and got intertwined with the Mendoza lineage establishing the
Ramirez de Mendoza lineage.
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2005Dec/msg00477.html
On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 AM, wrote:
> Thanks. I wish I had jotted down sources and other bits of info that I
> encountered when I first started researching.
> I have a diego vargas machuca married to a maria ramirez de hermosillo in
> about 1684 that a daughter named rosA francisco vargas machuca ( died 21jul
> 1751). Rosa married diego gonz rubio in 1708.
> Sor juanas maternal grandparents I have listed as pedro ramirez de
> sAntillana and beatriz ramirez rendon. Isabel was born about 1627 and died
> in 1688.
> ------Original Message------
> From: ed@serros.net
> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 9:51 PM
>
> I have the same information as Armando courtesy of the Octavio Paz book,
> Sor Juana, pg. 64-65. Father of Sor Juana: Pedro Manuel De Asbaje y Vargas,
> "a Basque...and nothing else known about him." The father is an enigma and a
> source of great speculation by Octavio Paz with respect to the character of
> Sor Juana, as I recall. The "criolla" mother: Dona Isabel Ramirez de
> Santillana. The origins of Isabel per Paz agree with Armando.
>
> I don't recall any reference to Los Altos and Sor Juana. I took a quick
> look at the Paz book again and I see no references to that area but I could
> be wrong. There is nothing in the index.
>
> Ed
I have a suspicion that Gonzalo was born in New Spain
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:46:20 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
> Thank you.
> I do have gonzalo ramirez de santillana arellAno, son of diego ramirez. Santillana arellano and Ines Brenes. I have gonzalo as being born in san lucar barameda, andalucia also
> Do you have any more info on diego and ines?
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Armando
> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:00:04
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
> I found an entry in a book that states that her maternal grandparents were
> from Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Andalucía.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=8rFnC58v-S8C&lpg=PA66&ots=ML5eH1V18t&d…
> I finally found what you were referring to -
> You're welcome. And for those of you out there who have ancestry from Los
> Altos, you can also claim a parentesco with Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Her
> great-grandfather, Diego Ramirez de Santillana-Arellano, is also the
> ancestor of many, many alteños. Another son of his named Gonzalo settled in
> Jalostotitlan and got intertwined with the Mendoza lineage establishing the
> Ramirez de Mendoza lineage.
> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2005Dec/msg00477.html
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 AM, wrote:
>
>> Thanks. I wish I had jotted down sources and other bits of info that I
>> encountered when I first started researching.
>> I have a diego vargas machuca married to a maria ramirez de hermosillo in
>> about 1684 that a daughter named rosA francisco vargas machuca ( died 21jul
>> 1751). Rosa married diego gonz rubio in 1708.
>> Sor juanas maternal grandparents I have listed as pedro ramirez de
>> sAntillana and beatriz ramirez rendon. Isabel was born about 1627 and died
>> in 1688.
>> ------Original Message------
>> From: ed@serros.net
>> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
>> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 9:51 PM
>>
>> I have the same information as Armando courtesy of the Octavio Paz book,
>> Sor Juana, pg. 64-65. Father of Sor Juana: Pedro Manuel De Asbaje y Vargas,
>> "a Basque...and nothing else known about him." The father is an enigma and a
>> source of great speculation by Octavio Paz with respect to the character of
>> Sor Juana, as I recall. The "criolla" mother: Dona Isabel Ramirez de
>> Santillana. The origins of Isabel per Paz agree with Armando.
>>
>> I don't recall any reference to Los Altos and Sor Juana. I took a quick
>> look at the Paz book again and I see no references to that area but I could
>> be wrong. There is nothing in the index.
>>
>> Ed
My data shows san lucar baarameda. Coincidentally, or maybe not, That is also the place where I have been tracking another of our ancestors. That search has brought as many dissenting and disagrEeable comments among descendents as the one we have had here on our jewish connections to los altos. It is actually the same arguement but being warred in spain. Recently found documents found in a san lucar barrameda library that houses papers that have not seen the light of day for centuries show that one of ancestors had a black mother from north africa and a jewish conversa wife. People are disputing this despite the documentation. In spain they are saying that it isn't true aNd are focusing on the researchers politics and alternative lifestyle. But the docmentation is clear. The stories that were made to coverup this family secret did not really make sense since it was known that his first successes were in northen africa. His father came from a prestigious noble spanish family that intermarried repeatedly with the fernandez de hijar, ramirez arellano and other family of alfonso XI.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:51:46
To: Patty Hoyos
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de
la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
I have a suspicion that Gonzalo was born in New Spain
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:46:20 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
> Thank you.
> I do have gonzalo ramirez de santillana arellAno, son of diego ramirez. Santillana arellano and Ines Brenes. I have gonzalo as being born in san lucar barameda, andalucia also
> Do you have any more info on diego and ines?
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Armando
> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:00:04
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
> I found an entry in a book that states that her maternal grandparents were
> from Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Andalucía.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=8rFnC58v-S8C&lpg=PA66&ots=ML5eH1V18t&d…
> I finally found what you were referring to -
> You're welcome. And for those of you out there who have ancestry from Los
> Altos, you can also claim a parentesco with Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Her
> great-grandfather, Diego Ramirez de Santillana-Arellano, is also the
> ancestor of many, many alteños. Another son of his named Gonzalo settled in
> Jalostotitlan and got intertwined with the Mendoza lineage establishing the
> Ramirez de Mendoza lineage.
> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2005Dec/msg00477.html
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 AM, wrote:
>
>> Thanks. I wish I had jotted down sources and other bits of info that I
>> encountered when I first started researching.
>> I have a diego vargas machuca married to a maria ramirez de hermosillo in
>> about 1684 that a daughter named rosA francisco vargas machuca ( died 21jul
>> 1751). Rosa married diego gonz rubio in 1708.
>> Sor juanas maternal grandparents I have listed as pedro ramirez de
>> sAntillana and beatriz ramirez rendon. Isabel was born about 1627 and died
>> in 1688.
>> ------Original Message------
>> From: ed@serros.net
>> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
>> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 9:51 PM
>>
>> I have the same information as Armando courtesy of the Octavio Paz book,
>> Sor Juana, pg. 64-65. Father of Sor Juana: Pedro Manuel De Asbaje y Vargas,
>> "a Basque...and nothing else known about him." The father is an enigma and a
>> source of great speculation by Octavio Paz with respect to the character of
>> Sor Juana, as I recall. The "criolla" mother: Dona Isabel Ramirez de
>> Santillana. The origins of Isabel per Paz agree with Armando.
>>
>> I don't recall any reference to Los Altos and Sor Juana. I took a quick
>> look at the Paz book again and I see no references to that area but I could
>> be wrong. There is nothing in the index.
>>
>> Ed
Im a bit confused is Pedro Ramirez Santillana a sibling of Gonzalo, I had not previously knewthat Gonzalo had any siblings? How many kids did Diego and Ines have total?
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:46:20 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
> Thank you.
> I do have gonzalo ramirez de santillana arellAno, son of diego ramirez. Santillana arellano and Ines Brenes. I have gonzalo as being born in san lucar barameda, andalucia also
> Do you have any more info on diego and ines?
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Armando
> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:00:04
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
> I found an entry in a book that states that her maternal grandparents were
> from Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Andalucía.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=8rFnC58v-S8C&lpg=PA66&ots=ML5eH1V18t&d…
> I finally found what you were referring to -
> You're welcome. And for those of you out there who have ancestry from Los
> Altos, you can also claim a parentesco with Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Her
> great-grandfather, Diego Ramirez de Santillana-Arellano, is also the
> ancestor of many, many alteños. Another son of his named Gonzalo settled in
> Jalostotitlan and got intertwined with the Mendoza lineage establishing the
> Ramirez de Mendoza lineage.
> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2005Dec/msg00477.html
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 AM, wrote:
>
>> Thanks. I wish I had jotted down sources and other bits of info that I
>> encountered when I first started researching.
>> I have a diego vargas machuca married to a maria ramirez de hermosillo in
>> about 1684 that a daughter named rosA francisco vargas machuca ( died 21jul
>> 1751). Rosa married diego gonz rubio in 1708.
>> Sor juanas maternal grandparents I have listed as pedro ramirez de
>> sAntillana and beatriz ramirez rendon. Isabel was born about 1627 and died
>> in 1688.
>> ------Original Message------
>> From: ed@serros.net
>> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
>> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 9:51 PM
>>
>> I have the same information as Armando courtesy of the Octavio Paz book,
>> Sor Juana, pg. 64-65. Father of Sor Juana: Pedro Manuel De Asbaje y Vargas,
>> "a Basque...and nothing else known about him." The father is an enigma and a
>> source of great speculation by Octavio Paz with respect to the character of
>> Sor Juana, as I recall. The "criolla" mother: Dona Isabel Ramirez de
>> Santillana. The origins of Isabel per Paz agree with Armando.
>>
>> I don't recall any reference to Los Altos and Sor Juana. I took a quick
>> look at the Paz book again and I see no references to that area but I could
>> be wrong. There is nothing in the index.
>>
>> Ed
You beat me to this question. I do not have any additional information. I do recall that it was very clear that the valle de gpe casillas ancestors were related to sor juana ines de la cruz. Pedro being gonzalos brother was the last piece of that puzzle. Now we need to see if we can find a connection between diego ramirez arlellano de santillana and toribio hernandez ramirez arellano de santillana. Their descendents married almost immediately. I believe there is a connection the answer maybe in a certain library in san lucar barrameda. The papers are still being catalogued.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:16:17
To: Patty Hoyos
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de
la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
Im a bit confused is Pedro Ramirez Santillana a sibling of Gonzalo, I had not previously knewthat Gonzalo had any siblings? How many kids did Diego and Ines have total?
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:46:20 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
> Thank you.
> I do have gonzalo ramirez de santillana arellAno, son of diego ramirez. Santillana arellano and Ines Brenes. I have gonzalo as being born in san lucar barameda, andalucia also
> Do you have any more info on diego and ines?
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Armando
> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:00:04
> To:
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
> I found an entry in a book that states that her maternal grandparents were
> from Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Andalucía.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=8rFnC58v-S8C&lpg=PA66&ots=ML5eH1V18t&d…
> I finally found what you were referring to -
> You're welcome. And for those of you out there who have ancestry from Los
> Altos, you can also claim a parentesco with Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Her
> great-grandfather, Diego Ramirez de Santillana-Arellano, is also the
> ancestor of many, many alteños. Another son of his named Gonzalo settled in
> Jalostotitlan and got intertwined with the Mendoza lineage establishing the
> Ramirez de Mendoza lineage.
> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2005Dec/msg00477.html
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 AM, wrote:
>
>> Thanks. I wish I had jotted down sources and other bits of info that I
>> encountered when I first started researching.
>> I have a diego vargas machuca married to a maria ramirez de hermosillo in
>> about 1684 that a daughter named rosA francisco vargas machuca ( died 21jul
>> 1751). Rosa married diego gonz rubio in 1708.
>> Sor juanas maternal grandparents I have listed as pedro ramirez de
>> sAntillana and beatriz ramirez rendon. Isabel was born about 1627 and died
>> in 1688.
>> ------Original Message------
>> From: ed@serros.net
>> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
>> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 9:51 PM
>>
>> I have the same information as Armando courtesy of the Octavio Paz book,
>> Sor Juana, pg. 64-65. Father of Sor Juana: Pedro Manuel De Asbaje y Vargas,
>> "a Basque...and nothing else known about him." The father is an enigma and a
>> source of great speculation by Octavio Paz with respect to the character of
>> Sor Juana, as I recall. The "criolla" mother: Dona Isabel Ramirez de
>> Santillana. The origins of Isabel per Paz agree with Armando.
>>
>> I don't recall any reference to Los Altos and Sor Juana. I took a quick
>> look at the Paz book again and I see no references to that area but I could
>> be wrong. There is nothing in the index.
>>
>> Ed
I had come to the conclusion Hernandez de Arellano was a combo ofFernandez de Hijar and Ramirez de Arellano, noting that backin the middle ages the H and F were interchangeable. Im a bit puzzledI thought EVERY person that went to the Indies were registered?But Toribio does not show up, another possibility I thought was Toribiowas a criollo not peninsular.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:20:00 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines dela Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
> You beat me to this question. I do not have any additional information. I do recall that it was very clear that the valle de gpe casillas ancestors were related to sor juana ines de la cruz. Pedro being gonzalos brother was the last piece of that puzzle. Now we need to see if we can find a connection between diego ramirez arlellano de santillana and toribio hernandez ramirez arellano de santillana. Their descendents married almost immediately. I believe there is a connection the answer maybe in a certain library in san lucar barrameda. The papers are still being catalogued.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:16:17
> To: Patty Hoyos
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de
> la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
>
> Im a bit confused is Pedro Ramirez Santillana a sibling of Gonzalo, I had not previously knewthat Gonzalo had any siblings? How many kids did Diego and Ines have total?
> Regards,Daniel
> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
>
>
>
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:46:20 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
> >
> > Thank you.
> > I do have gonzalo ramirez de santillana arellAno, son of diego ramirez. Santillana arellano and Ines Brenes. I have gonzalo as being born in san lucar barameda, andalucia also
> > Do you have any more info on diego and ines?
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Armando
> > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:00:04
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> > (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
> >
> > I found an entry in a book that states that her maternal grandparents were
> > from Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Andalucía.
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=8rFnC58v-S8C&lpg=PA66&ots=ML5eH1V18t&d…
> > I finally found what you were referring to -
> > You're welcome. And for those of you out there who have ancestry from Los
> > Altos, you can also claim a parentesco with Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Her
> > great-grandfather, Diego Ramirez de Santillana-Arellano, is also the
> > ancestor of many, many alteños. Another son of his named Gonzalo settled in
> > Jalostotitlan and got intertwined with the Mendoza lineage establishing the
> > Ramirez de Mendoza lineage.
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2005Dec/msg00477.html
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 AM, wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks. I wish I had jotted down sources and other bits of info that I
> >> encountered when I first started researching.
> >> I have a diego vargas machuca married to a maria ramirez de hermosillo in
> >> about 1684 that a daughter named rosA francisco vargas machuca ( died 21jul
> >> 1751). Rosa married diego gonz rubio in 1708.
> >> Sor juanas maternal grandparents I have listed as pedro ramirez de
> >> sAntillana and beatriz ramirez rendon. Isabel was born about 1627 and died
> >> in 1688.
> >> ------Original Message------
> >> From: ed@serros.net
> >> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> >> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> >> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> >> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> >> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
> >> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 9:51 PM
> >>
> >> I have the same information as Armando courtesy of the Octavio Paz book,
> >> Sor Juana, pg. 64-65. Father of Sor Juana: Pedro Manuel De Asbaje y Vargas,
> >> "a Basque...and nothing else known about him." The father is an enigma and a
> >> source of great speculation by Octavio Paz with respect to the character of
> >> Sor Juana, as I recall. The "criolla" mother: Dona Isabel Ramirez de
> >> Santillana. The origins of Isabel per Paz agree with Armando.
> >>
> >> I don't recall any reference to Los Altos and Sor Juana. I took a quick
> >> look at the Paz book again and I see no references to that area but I could
> >> be wrong. There is nothing in the index.
> >>
> >> Ed
> >> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> >> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >>
> >> To post, send email to:
> >> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> >> To change your subscription, log on to:
> >> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> >> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >>
> >> To post, send email to:
> >> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> >> To change your subscription, log on to:
> >> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/
I agree with you that Toribio is of the fernandez de hijar ramirez de arellano Hurtado de mndoza family. They intermarried repeatedly with each other and the descendents of alfonso XI through enrique the ii, fadrique and tello. I may be leaving out one of the brothers. The intermarrying continued in new spain.
Toribio is often a nickname. I know a jose heriberto that was known as Toribio.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:56:31
To: Patty Hoyos
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana
Ines dela Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
I had come to the conclusion Hernandez de Arellano was a combo ofFernandez de Hijar and Ramirez de Arellano, noting that backin the middle ages the H and F were interchangeable. Im a bit puzzledI thought EVERY person that went to the Indies were registered?But Toribio does not show up, another possibility I thought was Toribiowas a criollo not peninsular.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:20:00 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines dela Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
> You beat me to this question. I do not have any additional information. I do recall that it was very clear that the valle de gpe casillas ancestors were related to sor juana ines de la cruz. Pedro being gonzalos brother was the last piece of that puzzle. Now we need to see if we can find a connection between diego ramirez arlellano de santillana and toribio hernandez ramirez arellano de santillana. Their descendents married almost immediately. I believe there is a connection the answer maybe in a certain library in san lucar barrameda. The papers are still being catalogued.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:16:17
> To: Patty Hoyos
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de
> la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
>
> Im a bit confused is Pedro Ramirez Santillana a sibling of Gonzalo, I had not previously knewthat Gonzalo had any siblings? How many kids did Diego and Ines have total?
> Regards,Daniel
> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
>
>
>
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:46:20 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
> >
> > Thank you.
> > I do have gonzalo ramirez de santillana arellAno, son of diego ramirez. Santillana arellano and Ines Brenes. I have gonzalo as being born in san lucar barameda, andalucia also
> > Do you have any more info on diego and ines?
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Armando
> > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:00:04
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> > (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
> >
> > I found an entry in a book that states that her maternal grandparents were
> > from Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Andalucía.
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=8rFnC58v-S8C&lpg=PA66&ots=ML5eH1V18t&d…
> > I finally found what you were referring to -
> > You're welcome. And for those of you out there who have ancestry from Los
> > Altos, you can also claim a parentesco with Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Her
> > great-grandfather, Diego Ramirez de Santillana-Arellano, is also the
> > ancestor of many, many alteños. Another son of his named Gonzalo settled in
> > Jalostotitlan and got intertwined with the Mendoza lineage establishing the
> > Ramirez de Mendoza lineage.
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2005Dec/msg00477.html
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 AM, wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks. I wish I had jotted down sources and other bits of info that I
> >> encountered when I first started researching.
> >> I have a diego vargas machuca married to a maria ramirez de hermosillo in
> >> about 1684 that a daughter named rosA francisco vargas machuca ( died 21jul
> >> 1751). Rosa married diego gonz rubio in 1708.
> >> Sor juanas maternal grandparents I have listed as pedro ramirez de
> >> sAntillana and beatriz ramirez rendon. Isabel was born about 1627 and died
> >> in 1688.
> >> ------Original Message------
> >> From: ed@serros.net
> >> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> >> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> >> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> >> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> >> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
> >> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 9:51 PM
> >>
> >> I have the same information as Armando courtesy of the Octavio Paz book,
> >> Sor Juana, pg. 64-65. Father of Sor Juana: Pedro Manuel De Asbaje y Vargas,
> >> "a Basque...and nothing else known about him." The father is an enigma and a
> >> source of great speculation by Octavio Paz with respect to the character of
> >> Sor Juana, as I recall. The "criolla" mother: Dona Isabel Ramirez de
> >> Santillana. The origins of Isabel per Paz agree with Armando.
> >>
> >> I don't recall any reference to Los Altos and Sor Juana. I took a quick
> >> look at the Paz book again and I see no references to that area but I could
> >> be wrong. There is nothing in the index.
> >>
> >> Ed
> >> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> >> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >>
> >> To post, send email to:
> >> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> >> To change your subscription, log on to:
> >> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> >> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >>
> >> To post, send email to:
> >> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> >> To change your subscription, log on to:
> >> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
>_________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/
I never found any crossing of Toribio, thus I think he may be a Criollo. I also began to think Is it possible that not everyone that crossed the atlantic was evenregistered?
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 02:20:17 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor JuanaInes dela Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
> I agree with you that Toribio is of the fernandez de hijar ramirez de arellano Hurtado de mndoza family. They intermarried repeatedly with each other and the descendents of alfonso XI through enrique the ii, fadrique and tello. I may be leaving out one of the brothers. The intermarrying continued in new spain.
> Toribio is often a nickname. I know a jose heriberto that was known as Toribio.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:56:31
> To: Patty Hoyos
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana
> Ines dela Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
>
> I had come to the conclusion Hernandez de Arellano was a combo ofFernandez de Hijar and Ramirez de Arellano, noting that backin the middle ages the H and F were interchangeable. Im a bit puzzledI thought EVERY person that went to the Indies were registered?But Toribio does not show up, another possibility I thought was Toribiowas a criollo not peninsular.
> Regards,Daniel
>
> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
>
>
>
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
>> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:20:00 +0000
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines dela Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>>
>> You beat me to this question. I do not have any additional information. I do recall that it was very clear that the valle de gpe casillas ancestors were related to sor juana ines de la cruz. Pedro being gonzalos brother was the last piece of that puzzle. Now we need to see if we can find a connection between diego ramirez arlellano de santillana and toribio hernandez ramirez arellano de santillana. Their descendents married almost immediately. I believe there is a connection the answer maybe in a certain library in san lucar barrameda. The papers are still being catalogued.
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
>> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:16:17
>> To: Patty Hoyos
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de
>> la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>>
>>
>> Im a bit confused is Pedro Ramirez Santillana a sibling of Gonzalo, I had not previously knewthat Gonzalo had any siblings? How many kids did Diego and Ines have total?
>> Regards,Daniel
>> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
>>
>>
>>
>>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>>> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
>>> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:46:20 +0000
>>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>> I do have gonzalo ramirez de santillana arellAno, son of diego ramirez. Santillana arellano and Ines Brenes. I have gonzalo as being born in san lucar barameda, andalucia also
>>> Do you have any more info on diego and ines?
>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Armando
>>> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:00:04
>>> To:
>>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
>>> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>>>
>>> I found an entry in a book that states that her maternal grandparents were
>>> from Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Andalucía.
>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=8rFnC58v-S8C&lpg=PA66&ots=ML5eH1V18t&d…
>>> I finally found what you were referring to -
>>> You're welcome. And for those of you out there who have ancestry from Los
>>> Altos, you can also claim a parentesco with Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Her
>>> great-grandfather, Diego Ramirez de Santillana-Arellano, is also the
>>> ancestor of many, many alteños. Another son of his named Gonzalo settled in
>>> Jalostotitlan and got intertwined with the Mendoza lineage establishing the
>>> Ramirez de Mendoza lineage.
>>> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2005Dec/msg00477.html
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 AM, wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks. I wish I had jotted down sources and other bits of info that I
>>>> encountered when I first started researching.
>>>> I have a diego vargas machuca married to a maria ramirez de hermosillo in
>>>> about 1684 that a daughter named rosA francisco vargas machuca ( died 21jul
>>>> 1751). Rosa married diego gonz rubio in 1708.
>>>> Sor juanas maternal grandparents I have listed as pedro ramirez de
>>>> sAntillana and beatriz ramirez rendon. Isabel was born about 1627 and died
>>>> in 1688.
>>>> ------Original Message------
>>>> From: ed@serros.net
>>>> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>>>> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>>>> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>>>> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
>>>> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>>>> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 9:51 PM
>>>>
>>>> I have the same information as Armando courtesy of the Octavio Paz book,
>>>> Sor Juana, pg. 64-65. Father of Sor Juana: Pedro Manuel De Asbaje y Vargas,
>>>> "a Basque...and nothing else known about him." The father is an enigma and a
>>>> source of great speculation by Octavio Paz with respect to the character of
>>>> Sor Juana, as I recall. The "criolla" mother: Dona Isabel Ramirez de
>>>> Santillana. The origins of Isabel per Paz agree with Armando.
>>>>
>>>> I don't recall any reference to Los Altos and Sor Juana. I took a quick
>>>> look at the Paz book again and I see no references to that area but I could
>>>> be wrong. There is nothing in the index.
>>>>
>>>> Ed
>>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>>>> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>>>>
>>>> To post, send email to:
>>>> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>>>>
>>>> To change your subscription, log on to:
>>>> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>>>> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>>>>
>>>> To post, send email to:
>>>> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>>>>
>>>> To change your subscription, log on to:
>>>> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>>>>
>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>>> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>>>
>>> To post, send email to:
>>> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>>>
>>> To change your subscription, log on to:
>>> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>>> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>>>
>>> To post, send email to:
>>> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>>>
>>> To change your subscription, log on to:
>>> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/
Toribio was married at a time where the catholic church was attempting to stop so much intermarriage between cousins and some people hid their relationship or claimed ignorance in order to marry without having to ask for a dispensation.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:56:31
To: Patty Hoyos
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana
Ines dela Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
I had come to the conclusion Hernandez de Arellano was a combo ofFernandez de Hijar and Ramirez de Arellano, noting that backin the middle ages the H and F were interchangeable. Im a bit puzzledI thought EVERY person that went to the Indies were registered?But Toribio does not show up, another possibility I thought was Toribiowas a criollo not peninsular.
Regards,Daniel
To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 05:20:00 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines dela Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
> You beat me to this question. I do not have any additional information. I do recall that it was very clear that the valle de gpe casillas ancestors were related to sor juana ines de la cruz. Pedro being gonzalos brother was the last piece of that puzzle. Now we need to see if we can find a connection between diego ramirez arlellano de santillana and toribio hernandez ramirez arellano de santillana. Their descendents married almost immediately. I believe there is a connection the answer maybe in a certain library in san lucar barrameda. The papers are still being catalogued.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Mendez de Camino y Soto
> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 23:16:17
> To: Patty Hoyos
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de
> la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
>
>
> Im a bit confused is Pedro Ramirez Santillana a sibling of Gonzalo, I had not previously knewthat Gonzalo had any siblings? How many kids did Diego and Ines have total?
> Regards,Daniel
> To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
>
>
>
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > From: mygenes2000@yahoo.com
> > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:46:20 +0000
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
> >
> > Thank you.
> > I do have gonzalo ramirez de santillana arellAno, son of diego ramirez. Santillana arellano and Ines Brenes. I have gonzalo as being born in san lucar barameda, andalucia also
> > Do you have any more info on diego and ines?
> > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Armando
> > Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:00:04
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> > (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
> >
> > I found an entry in a book that states that her maternal grandparents were
> > from Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Andalucía.
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=8rFnC58v-S8C&lpg=PA66&ots=ML5eH1V18t&d…
> > I finally found what you were referring to -
> > You're welcome. And for those of you out there who have ancestry from Los
> > Altos, you can also claim a parentesco with Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Her
> > great-grandfather, Diego Ramirez de Santillana-Arellano, is also the
> > ancestor of many, many alteños. Another son of his named Gonzalo settled in
> > Jalostotitlan and got intertwined with the Mendoza lineage establishing the
> > Ramirez de Mendoza lineage.
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2005Dec/msg00477.html
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 AM, wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks. I wish I had jotted down sources and other bits of info that I
> >> encountered when I first started researching.
> >> I have a diego vargas machuca married to a maria ramirez de hermosillo in
> >> about 1684 that a daughter named rosA francisco vargas machuca ( died 21jul
> >> 1751). Rosa married diego gonz rubio in 1708.
> >> Sor juanas maternal grandparents I have listed as pedro ramirez de
> >> sAntillana and beatriz ramirez rendon. Isabel was born about 1627 and died
> >> in 1688.
> >> ------Original Message------
> >> From: ed@serros.net
> >> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> >> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> >> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> >> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> >> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
> >> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 9:51 PM
> >>
> >> I have the same information as Armando courtesy of the Octavio Paz book,
> >> Sor Juana, pg. 64-65. Father of Sor Juana: Pedro Manuel De Asbaje y Vargas,
> >> "a Basque...and nothing else known about him." The father is an enigma and a
> >> source of great speculation by Octavio Paz with respect to the character of
> >> Sor Juana, as I recall. The "criolla" mother: Dona Isabel Ramirez de
> >> Santillana. The origins of Isabel per Paz agree with Armando.
> >>
> >> I don't recall any reference to Los Altos and Sor Juana. I took a quick
> >> look at the Paz book again and I see no references to that area but I could
> >> be wrong. There is nothing in the index.
> >>
> >> Ed
> >> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> >> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >>
> >> To post, send email to:
> >> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> >> To change your subscription, log on to:
> >> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> >> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> >> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >>
> >> To post, send email to:
> >> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> >> To change your subscription, log on to:
> >> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >>
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
>_________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/
Thank you again for the info. I had originally seen the claim in doing research on my casillas lines and it all fits in now since these casillas descend from gonzalo.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Armando
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:00:04
To:
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
(JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
I found an entry in a book that states that her maternal grandparents were
from Sanlúcar de Barrameda, Andalucía.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8rFnC58v-S8C&lpg=PA66&ots=ML5eH1V18t&d…
I finally found what you were referring to -
You're welcome. And for those of you out there who have ancestry from Los
Altos, you can also claim a parentesco with Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz. Her
great-grandfather, Diego Ramirez de Santillana-Arellano, is also the
ancestor of many, many alteños. Another son of his named Gonzalo settled in
Jalostotitlan and got intertwined with the Mendoza lineage establishing the
Ramirez de Mendoza lineage.
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2005Dec/msg00477.html
On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 AM, wrote:
> Thanks. I wish I had jotted down sources and other bits of info that I
> encountered when I first started researching.
> I have a diego vargas machuca married to a maria ramirez de hermosillo in
> about 1684 that a daughter named rosA francisco vargas machuca ( died 21jul
> 1751). Rosa married diego gonz rubio in 1708.
> Sor juanas maternal grandparents I have listed as pedro ramirez de
> sAntillana and beatriz ramirez rendon. Isabel was born about 1627 and died
> in 1688.
> ------Original Message------
> From: ed@serros.net
> Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
> (JuanaInesAsbajeRamirez)
> Sent: Mar 8, 2010 9:51 PM
>
> I have the same information as Armando courtesy of the Octavio Paz book,
> Sor Juana, pg. 64-65. Father of Sor Juana: Pedro Manuel De Asbaje y Vargas,
> "a Basque...and nothing else known about him." The father is an enigma and a
> source of great speculation by Octavio Paz with respect to the character of
> Sor Juana, as I recall. The "criolla" mother: Dona Isabel Ramirez de
> Santillana. The origins of Isabel per Paz agree with Armando.
>
> I don't recall any reference to Los Altos and Sor Juana. I took a quick
> look at the Paz book again and I see no references to that area but I could
> be wrong. There is nothing in the index.
>
> Ed
Dear Armando,
When you found the connection through her great grandfather I was overjoyed and stopped looking for any other connection. I made a mistake when I stopped looking for a closer connection. I recently found a closer connection as I descend from her grandfather Pedro Ramirez de Arellano Santillana. I descend from Sor Juana Ine's aunt (mom's sister).This line left many descendants in Valle de Gpe., Jalostotitlan, and Tepatitlan. This daughter of Pedro's left many descendants in this area. I also believe, because of many secondary sources pieced together, but not confirmed by a primary source, that from this line we also have Micaela Ramirez Cornejo the wife of Jose Pedro Vallejo.
Pedro Ramirez Santillana de Arellano
Ines Ramirez Santillana m to Alonso Cornejo de Gordibar Osorio
Rosa Ramirez Cornejo m. To Miguel Garcia del Castillo
Bartolome Garcia del Castillo m. To Ana Herrera y Delgadillo
Maria Manuela Victoria Garcia del Castillo m. Joseph Felipe Masedonio De La Mota Padilla Davila
Jose Remigio Anastacio Padilla m. To Maria Gertrudis Vallejo Lomelin
Maria Bernardina de Jesus Padilla m. Jose Maria Gomez Hurtado de Mendoza Suazo de Carmona
Eulogio de San Rafael Gomez Hurtado de Mendoza + Juan Jose Gomez Hurtado de Mendoza
Maria del Refugio Gomez y Gomez + Gregorio Perez De La Torre
Maria S de R Perez Gomez Hurtado de Mendoza + Nicolas Ramirez y Gomez
Juana Ramirez + Jose Prospero Perez Franco
Maria del Carmen Perez Ramirez + Jose Hermenegildo Romo Franco "don Mere"
Pedro Ramirez Santillana de Arellano
Isabel Ramirez Santillana de Arellano Brenes
Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz Ramirez de Asbaje
Pedro Ramirez Santillana de Arellano
Ines Ramirez Santillana m to Alonso Cornejo de Gordibar Osorio
Probably Micaela Ramirez Cornejo m. To Jose Pedro Vallejo
(From a compilation of secondary sources Micaela seems fit as the daughter of Ines and Alonso. still looking for a primary source to confirm)
Antonio Vallejo m. Isabel Olvera
Jose Pedro Vallejo m. Micaela Ramirez Cornejo "Gordibar Osorio"
Francisco Vallejo m. Maria Xaviera Martinez de Arcarazo
Blas Geronimo Vallejo + Maria Antonia Lomelin
Maria Gertrudis Vallejo + Jose Remigio Anastacio Padilla
Maria Bernardina de Jesus Padilla + Jose Maria Gomez Suazo de Carmona
Eulogio de San Rafael Gomez Hurtado de Mendoza + Juan Jose Gomez Hurtado de Mendoza
Maria del Refugio Gomez y Gomez + Gregorio Perez De La Torre
Maria S de R Perez Gomez Hurtado de Mendoza + Nicolas Ramirez y Gomez
Juana Ramirez + Jose Prospero Perez Franco
Maria del Carmen Perez Ramirez + Jose Hermenegildo Romo Franco "don Mere"
Please let me know if you find an error.
R.A.Ricci
Saul Navarro
I have a connection to Maria Manuela Victoria married to Joseph Masedonio De La Mota Padilla Davila. I descend from their daughter Juaquina Manuela Padilla married in Nochistlan on 20th of Nov. 1764 to Jose Ygnacio Martin Del Campo. So, thanks for the information provided above and for 4 new generations. S. Navarro
You're welcome Saul. I was hoping to find relatives from this line. I kept checking to see if someone would respond to this post. May I please have more information on your line so that I may add it to my database. Many of my lines are intertwined. This branch of my family that I posted is more isolated from my other lines and includes some ancestors that are unique such as the Garcia de Castillo line, the Diaz de Nariz line, and the Suazo de Carmona line. I have a little more info (notes) to share on these lines that I provided. I also have more generations to add. One of these ancestors was a carpenter and built for Hernan Cortez.
There were many Jose Ygnacio Martin del Campos. Who are his parents? I also have many Martin del Campo lines.
I look forward to discussing our research.
Sincerely,
R.A.Ricci
Saul Navarro
In the marriage doc for Joaquina and Jph Ygnacio, his parents were Yldefonso Martin and Josepha Cornejo. Lets continue the dialogue contact me directly, my e-mail address is hartparkangler@yahoo.com
Saul Navarro
These are my family lines to Jph Phelipe Padilla
Jose Ygnacio Martin Del Campo marr Joaquina Padilla
Maria Ygnacia Martinez marr Joseph Pioquinto Garcia
Guadalupe Garcia marr Ramon Quesada
Jose Reyes Garcia marr Margarita de San Francisco Quesada
Presiliano Garcia marr Macedonia Gutierrez
Maria Catalina Garcia marr Jose Anastacio Navarro
Jose Navarro marr Petra Arambulo
Me Saul Navarro
I also Connect to Lazaro Martin Del Campo married to Maria Lopez de La Cruz thru their daughter married to Diego Marquez de los Olivos.
R.A.RICCI
YO TENGO EN MIS LINEAS A LOS SUAZO Y CARMONA CASADA CON UN VELASQUEZ DE LARA
Saludos Víctor,
Como desciendes de los Suazo Carmona y Velázquez De Lara?
Gracias,
Ricardo A. Ricci
Dear Saul Navarro,
I have located primary documents that were transferred to the Library of Congress here in the United States and the University of Aberdeen in Scotland, United Kingdom that are said to contain much information on the ancestral lineage of Maria Manuela Victoria Garcia del Castillo, wife of Joseph Felipe Masedonio De La Mota Padilla Davila. The records show descent from the Osorio family in Spain from the 1200’s.
Rick A. Ricci
In my search to find the connections between the three different Ramírez families, I have found more pieces to the puzzle. But adding more pieces has brought more questions. There is a deliberate attempt it seems to cloud the identity of Juana ynes de Cruz's father's family. and there is a record that shows a different father. The research that I have done on this family will be included with my research on Toribio Hernandez Arellano.
Hola Ricardo:
La familia Ramírez de Arellano es la rama principal de la casa y solar Ramírez de la Piscina, esta rama se distinguió por tener cargos públicos en diferentes etapas.
En Nueva España destacaron Don Tristán de Luna y Arellano y Don Carlos de Luna y Arellano, Mariscales. Sus descendientes fueron propietarios de la hacienda la Erre en Dolores Hidalgo, Guanajuato, un gran latifundio que puedes conocer el página ruelsa.com
Para llevar a cabo sus funciones administrativas se auxiliaron de varias familias judías, que en determinado momento se vieron forzadas a convertirse al cristianismo y tomaron el apellido Ramírez. Ambas familias estaban juntas en diferentes lugares y épocas y por eso pueden confundirse, pero estos Ramírez judíos no utilizaban la parte "de Arellano".
Para saber con detalle los nombres, fechas etc. Puedes asomarte a la historia del escritor Juan Ramírez de Lucena, de la rama judía.
Saludos
Marcelina
Marcelina
Buscare la historia del escritor Juan Ramírez de Lucena para saber más de la familia Ramirez.
Gracias,
Ricardo A. Ricci
While reading through entries in Jalisco, 1700-1750's, mostly from Jocotepec, I came across references to individuals who were indios tepostli / telpostle / tepustli, a word new to me.
Hello, this is my 1st post. Does anyone know or have any Ramos surnames from Mascota, Jalisco in their lines? My 3rd Great Grandfather was Sebastian Ramos who married Maria Nabor Orosco from Arandas.
I don’t have information on Cristoval Ramos, but Sebastian Ramos was married to Maria Nabor del Refugio Orosco on 17/Feb/1868 en Arandas, Jalisco.
María Cenobia de Jesús Tovar is the daughter of José Rafael Antonio de Tovar and Maria Secundina de la Trinidad Licea. Ma. Cenobia de Jesús Tovar was baptized 31/Oct/1819 in San Miguel Allende, Guanajuato. She was baptized the day after birth.
José Rafael Antonio de Tovar and Maria Secundina de la Trinidad Licea was married 30/Oct/1814, San Jose Iturbide, Guanajuato
I believe that Maria Secundina de la Trinidad Licea is the daughter of José Ramon Licea and María Jesús de la Trinidad Muñoz, (still need to confirm.)
I hope this information can help you with your research,
Rick A. Ricci
Thank you. I do have them on my tree. I can't find any record past Cristobol.
One of the problems with researching the Cristóbal name is that in many records it is written in many different forms: Cristoval, Xtobal, Xtbl, Cristóbal, Xristobal, Xbl. The other issue is that it is often a middle name with the middle name being José or Juan.
First candidate:
José Xtobal Ramos Palafox was baptized in 15/Aug/1780 in Zacatecas
Parents: Juan Ramos and Juana Maria de Palafox
Second candidate has another marriage:
Xtobal de Jesus Ramos married to Maria Rafaela Garcia in Guadalajara on 7/Oct/1821
Third candidate:
Xtoval Doroteo Ramos baptized 16/June/1776 in Teocaltiche Jalisco by parents Domingo Ramos and Maria Dominga
Fourth candidate:
Juan Cristoval Ramos married to Maria Laureana Garcia in 12/April/1815 in Jalostotitlan, Jalisco
Wish you much success in your research Karina,
Rick A. Ricci
Thank you so much Rick. I didn't know what other variations of his name could be other than spelling it with a "V" or a "b" (Cristoval/Cristobal). His son Sebastian, I have been searching for his baptismal record to see who his paternal grandparents could be. I will try to search using other spelling variations of the name.
Buena dia,
Gracias Enrique por compartir esta información. Por favor avísame donde podría comprar el primer tomo.
Ricardo
Hello Nuestros Ranchos Forum,
I'm trying to see if anyone has any information on capitan Melchor de
Richarte and María Tomasa de Guzmán y Prado. They both would've been born
probably in the 1680s.
Hi Danny, I emailed you about Melchor just now. He is on my family tree. There are a few records relating to Melchor, but he is a bit of a mystery. Not much is known of his origins. I believe that the Aguascalientes City records have a document indicating he engaged in slave trading. There is also a marriage dispensation as I recall, but it did not shed light on his parents or origins. Some undocumented genealogies on Ancestry.com have him coming from the Pais Valenciano in Spain, but I’ve seen no hard evidence of that.
My Great Grandmother was a Richarte (Ricarte). Melchor de Richarte is also my ancestor. I can not find any records of his parent's names nor can I find any of his children's "abuelos" names either. I also saw that some people on Ancestry have him coming from Spain, but I have yet to find any evidence as well. What records in Aguascalientes did you see that he was a slave trader? I noticed they also have him as Capitan Melchor de Richarte in a record.
Soy descendiente de Alonso Velasco y de Ana Flores de la Torre, los dos residentes en Juchipila.
E visto que muchas cosas del área de Huejucar preceden en Tlantenago de Sanchez Roman ; busca ahi puede haber algo
Me podrias guiar si las menciones de huejucar fueron en matromonios, o bautizos?
Hola prim@s,
Hello Manny,
I've read the IM of Geronimo and Rosa a couple of times. From what I could tell from the witnesses, whatever parentesco there was, it was indeed too remote to be figured out by the eldest of the elders (Juan de Bejar, Francisco de Bejar and Tomas de Bejar - all born in the 1630s). If the parentesco truly existed it would have existed in the generation of Ana Garcia de Liebana cc Juan Maciel Plancarte and earlier. (We're talking mid - late 1500s)
Maria de Liebana (wife of Gregorio de Bejar Sandoval) was actually the daughter of Juan Maciel Plancarte and Ana Garcia de Liebana. We know this through countless dispensas and also given the timeframe of when Juan Ascencio de Leon was having children with Geronima de Liebana vs. when Gregorio and Maria had their children. Juan Ascencio de Leon didn't really show up in Tangancicuaro and the surrounding areas 'til about the mid 1640s. He also didn't start having children 'til about the mid 1640s.
Juan Ascencio de Leon mentions in this following document when he first arrived to the area:
...En el pueblo de Tangancicuaro en diez y siete del mes de Julio de mil seissientos y setenta y dos anos Presento por testigo a Juan Ascencio de Leon vecino de dicha jurisdicion del cual recibi juramento que hizo por Dios nuestro senor y la senal de la cruz en forma de derecho socargo del cual prometio decir verdad y siendole preguntado por el tenor de dicha peticion dijo que abra veinte y ocho anos que vive en esta jurisdicion y en este...
All in all I have Juan Ascencio de Leon cc Geronima de Liebana (daughter of Alvaro Yanez Maciel cc Isabel Orozco del Castillo) as the parents of:
Agustin Maciel cc Ines Rodriguez: I have Agustin as a child of Juan Maciel Blancarte and Ana de Garcia Liebana. Ines was the daughter of Juan Bautista ??? and Mariana ??? as mentioned in this IM:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-TQ2Z-M?i=141&cc=1883388&cat=394235
Nicolas Maciel cc Geronima de Ayala: I have Nicolas as another possible child of Juan Maciel Blancarte and Ana de Garcia de Liebana. It's a suspicion given that Nicolas and Geronima were having children in the 1640s (Tlazazalca). Geronima de Ayala I have as being a possible child of Tomas de Ayala cc Juana de la Mora y Ovalle. What I find confusing is that there's a Nicolas Maciel and a Geronima de Ayala alonside a Nicolas Maciel and Geronima de la Cueva... Are they one in the same couple? I don't know for certain.
I don't have Nicolasa de Liebana cc Juan Basilio Ruiz de Velasco in my records.
One last thing... I find it very interesting that Lorenza de Ovalle y Liebana (cc Diego Magdaleno) actually had the surname Ovalle. Per the witnesses in the IM you mentioned, Lorenza is mentioned with an Ovalle surname. If so... The Maciels have a connection to the Ovalles. The Ovalle surname originates, at least the Michoacan Ovalles, with Diego del Valle, an early settler of Guayarangueo (what later became known as Valladolid and then Morelia). I don't have much information about Diego del Valle other than he fathered two daughters, Felipa de Ovalle cc Sebastian de Torres and Maria de Ovalle cc Diego Sanchez de Mora. Most of the Michoacan Ovalles in and around Tangancicuaro, Jacona, Tlazazalca, etc. are descended from Diego Sanchez de Mora and Maria de Ovalle. I have Diego Sanchez de Mora (The elder) cc Maria de Ovalle as being the parents of:
The above information was pieced together using at least these documents:
Regards,
Daniel Serna Valencia
Hi Daniel,
Is there documentation that says Geronima de Liebana is the daughter of Alvaro Yanez Maciel and Isabel Orozco del Castillo?
Paige
I don't yet have any documentation that proves that Geronima de Liebana was the daughter of Alvaro Yanez Maciel and Isabel Orozco del Castillo. (It's a theory that she's their daughter, given the timeline, place, etc.) If I find something to prove it, I'll pass it along.
Daniel
Thank you so much, Daniel!
This all makes more sense now, and individuals are falling nicely into place - the time lines were just killing me! And thank you for sharing that land dispute - I’ve spent the last couple of days reading it, and I still haven’t finished, but it’s got a wealth of information on these families. Here’s my takeaway:
First of all, the children of Juan Maciel Plancarte are (from images 445 & 504):
- Alvaro Maciel cc Ysabel de Orozco
- Lorensa de Torres cc Diego Magdaleno
- Pedro Blancarte
- Maria de Liebana cc Gregorio de Bejar
- Francisca de Liebana cc Tomas de Ayala
- Ana de Liebana cc Diego de la Mora
- Geronima de Liebana cc Juan Asencio de Leon
- Nicolas Maciel cc Geronima de Ayala
- Agustin Maciel cc Ines de Morfin
- Cristobal Blancarte (father of Gertrudis Blancarte cc Juan de Vallejo)
Alvaro Yañez Garcia was the father of Juan Maciel Plancarte; he died before 25 Jan 1600, when Juan Maciel, as his executor, and as tutor y curador of his siblings, sold some lands to Francisco Martin Muñoz (img522).
Information on Alvaro Yañez Garcia’s capellania is given on img502; the first capellan was his cuñado, Licenciado Pedro Blancarte; would this be the brother of his wife? This would give us a source for the “Plancarte/Blancarte” surname. And would they be children of Ana Hernandez viuda de Pedro Plancarte, who joined the cofradia de Nra Sra del Rosario on 14 Sep 1593? This would make sense, seeing how “Pedro” is a reoccurring name in these families.
MARIA DE OROZCO & YSABEL DE OROSCO
Licenciado Nicolas Maciel was son of Alvaro Maciel cc Ysabel de Orozco. On 26 Nov 1663, he appeared as a witness on the dispensa for his niece, Ysabel de Morfin, daughter of his sister, Anna de Liebana cc Antonio Rodriguez de Morfin, for her marriage to Melchor Valencia. The couple were at 4/4, descending from sisters, Maria & Ysabel de Orozco.
In his statement, Nicolas Maciel says that “Maria de Orozco, great-grandmother of this witness and of Melchor Valencia, was mother of Maria de Orozco, grandmother of Melchor Valencia, and sister of Ysabel de Orozco, also grandmother of this witness, and that from Maria de Orozco was born Juana de Peña, mother of Melchor Valencia, and that from Ysabel de Orozco was born Ysabel de Orozco, mother of this witness and of Ana de Liebana, mother of Ysabel de Morfin”
What’s interesting, is what he says about Maria de Orozco being his great-grandmother. As we know that his mother is daughter of her sister, Ysabel de Orozco, then the relationship would have to be through his father, Alvaro Maciel - which would mean that Alvaro was the 1st-cousin/once removed of his wife. But it also means that either Juan Maciel or Anna Garcia de Liebana was a child of Maria de Orozco. My guess is the latter, if Maria and Ysabel de Orozco are children of Geronimo de Orozco Liebana cc Ysabel del Castillo, as per Carlos Peredo’s post on 16 Sep 2017. Anyone?
NICOLAS MACIEL
Regarding his wife (or wives): married on 6 Jan 1665, in Zamora, were Juan Maciel and Anna de Aldana; their padrinos were Nicolas Maciel & doña Geronima de la Cueba, “padres del dho contrayente.”
On 3 Apr 1703, dispensed were Miguel Maciel Betancur and Ana Maciel Blancarte, granddaughter of aforementioned Juan Maciel. This establishes that his father, Nicolas Maciel, was brother of Alvaro Maciel cc Ysabel de Orozco. So, he’s the same who was married to Geronima de Ayala. It’s possible that the 2 Geronima’s are different people, in which case, from the timelines of their children, he was married first to Geronima de la Cueva.
NICOLASA DE LIEBANA cc JUAN BASILIO RUIZ DE VELASCO
Regarding Nicolasa de Liebana: according to ElCapitanPaco in his post from 17 Oct 2013, she is sister of Josepha Asencio de Leon, as per the dispensa of Joseph Ygnacio Tello de Orozco cc Maria Dolores Lomelin. I haven’t seen this dispensa, since it’s misplaced on “Morelia” roll #0765283 (the roll is for 1673, though the dispensa is from 1773), so I can’t verify, but ElCapitanPaco is a thorough researcher.
LORENSA DE TORRES cc DIEGO MAGDALENO
Lorensa de Torres cc Diego Magdaleno is likely Lorensa de Oballe Liebana; in the suit, their daughter, Maria de Torres, was represented by her husband, Juan de Santiago. She is probably the same Maria de Oballe and he, Juan de Chavez, who petitioned marriage on 19 Feb 1661. Juan de Santiago and “Maria de Oballe” had a son who married Sebastiana del Castillo in May 1694, in Angamacutiro (the page with their son’s name on it is missing). If so, then “Torres,” along with “Oballe,” is a whole new surname to throw into this soup.
Thanks again!
Manny Díez Hermosillo
Right now I don't have the link to the imagen but I think I found the baptism of Geronima de Liebana because I have her in my notes as baptized in 1621 in Tangancicuaro and have her marrying in 1637 to Juan Ascencio de León
Hello,
While re-reading some matrimonial information for "Melchor de los Reyes" and "Catalina de Murguia Ontiveros" I found a crucial clue that tells us that Geronima de Liebana, Juan Ascencio de Leon's wife, was a sister of Agustin Maciel and Pedro Plancarte, both sons of Alvaro Yanez Maciel and Isabel de Orozco del Castillo.
First the matrimonial information itself:
While the information pertains to Melchor and Catalina, the documents details how there's a potential impediment between Melchor and Catalina given that Melchor had an illicit relationship with an illegitimate child of Juan de Zamora (uncle of Catalina). As part of the testimony, we have two key witnesses, Agustin Maciel and a former slave of Juan Ascencio de Leon. Agustin Maciel testifies that the, supposed, illegitimate child of Juan de Zamora could not have been a daughter of Juan de Zamora. Agustin further mentions that the mother of Juan de Zamora's illegitimate child had illicit relationships with multiple men in Tangancicuaro, Michoacan. This included Pedro de Plancarte, brother of Agustin Maciel:
Link to Agustin Maciel's testimony
...hermano de este declarante llamado Pedro Blancarte...
In closing, Agustin mentioned that he was 50 years old which puts his birth around 1620.
The second crucial witness was a former slave of Juan Ascencio de Leon, Josefa Maciel. Link to Josefa Maciel's testimony
...Josefa Maciel mulata liberta esclava que fue de Juan Ascencio de Leon y residente en el pueblo de Tangancicuaro y nacida en el, en la casa de Alvaro Maciel... ...y la hallo metida con un hermano de la Ama de esta declarante llamado Pedro Plancarte...
With the above information, we know that Agustin Maciel and Pedro Plancarte were brothers. We then add the testimony of a former slave of Juan Ascencio de Leon who mentions that Pedro de Plancarte was a brother to her "Ama", i.e. Juan Ascencio de Leon's wife (Geronima de Liebana). With that we have Agustin Maciel (born around 1620), Pedro Plancarte (already deceased by 1670), Geronima de Liebana (former slave master to Josefa Maciel) as siblings. Alvaro Maciel and Isabel de Orozco did indeed have two children named Pedro Plancarte and Agustin Maciel. Not to mention that Josefa (the former slave) was formerly owned by Alvaro Maciel. I think that with this information we can safely connect Geronima de Liebana as the daugher of Alvaro Maciel and Isabel de Orozco.
Thoughts?
Daniel Serna Valencia
Hello Daniel.
When re-reading the document you are citing, I found that the witness Agustin Maciel, 50 years old, is said he was vecino de la villa de Zamora. I think he is the Agustin Maciel listed in marriage dispensation 1.2 in this other post. There is also a 1645 IM on him.
There is another Pedro Plancarte, married to Nicolasa de Ovalle (I don´t know who the parents of this Pedro are), he died before the marriage of his son Juan Plancarte (Taramécuaro, 26 May 1662. Images 153 and 154 of 687).
May these Agustin and Pedro be the siblings of Geronima - and Alvaro and Maria, the wife of Gregorio Bejar)?
Good catch Ruben,
Yes, it's possible that I might be one generation ahead with regards to the parents of these siblings. (Alvaro & Isabel vs. Juan Maciel Plancarte & Ana Garcia de Liebana). I hope we're able to turn up more clues to identify the parents. We can safely say that the parents of these siblings are one of the previously mentioned couples.
Thanks,
Daniel
Ortiz de San Pedro