Hello everyone! My name is Angelica, I'm new here. Began researching my family roots about a year and a half ago now and have been regularly/actively working on my family tree.
Welcome to the group!
Pat.
Yes, what started all this on Juan de Villalpando and Ursula Olaes, is that in the Archives of New Mexico, there is a marriage for their son Juan Villalpando to Ana Maria Romero, June 2, 16
My Mathernal Great Grandfather's name was Jose Refugio De La Paz Villalpando, I can't find much on his lineage, my Grandma says that his family originally came from Europe/Spain. But I believe my Great Grandpa was born in Tecolotlan Jalisco abt 1901, he died April 1st 1940, I believe his parents were Catarino De La Paz and Mariana Villalpando. My Grandmother's GEDmatch number is QW7849654 she was Refugio's daughter.
Emilie,
What an interesting story.
I'm finding that parish priest within the same location often used different formats in recording births and marriages...sadly I'm finding that with researching my husband's Corbera ancestors... I'll find them on LDS, getting my hopes up that once I view film it will supply the names of AP and AM...but often that is not the case...
I have bapt records for my father-in-law and his siblings, but there's a time gap from his bapt in 1894 until the next sibling in 1900... I have searched until I can see no more... ;-).
This search can prove very frustrating at time, but so rewarding when the link is made.
Good luck with your search.
Sincerely,
Pat Silva Corbera
Tracy CA
Papagaia's Journey of Discovery
----- Original Message -----
From: "Emilie Garcia"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 2:53:36 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Juan de Villalpando
Pat.
Yes, what started all this on Juan de Villalpando and Ursula Olaes, is that in the Archives of New Mexico, there is a marriage for their son Juan Villalpando to Ana Maria Romero, June 2, 1694 in New Mexico. The record states that he was a native of "La Villa de Leon", and gave his parents names. He was a soldier at the presidio in Santa Fe.
Genealogists in New Mexico mistakenly put up trees that put the younger Juan as being born in Leon, Valladolid, Spain, but now we know that the Leon referred to was the one in Guanajuato. There is no record of births for the two Juans found yet, and records of the time did not always mention the grandparents. What is so interesting is that there are several Juan de Villa del Pando or Villalpando and several Ursula Olaes born in Valladolid, Spain, so those might be relatives or ancesteors.
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
Yes i found Juan's birth record in Leon 1674, son of Juan de Villalpando and Maria Olaes...Ursula and Maria are the same person on her marriage record to Ulloa it says she is the widow of Juan de Villalpando...so this is our Juan.
Amalia Hernandez Arias
This subject is very interesting. I have touched basis with New Mexico genealogy, through my step-grandmother. She is "Duran y Chavez"
and descends from the typical names, Martin Serrano, Vasquez de Lara, Baca, Romero, Roybal, etc. I am not sure why many New Mexican
genealogist "assumed" things if there is no proof with certain data. The Villalpando of New Mexico came from Leon, Guanajuato not Leon, Spain.
If anyone is extracting the spanish records for Leon, Gto please publish them. I plan eventually to do this in the near future if no one else decides
to do it.
Daniel Méndez Camino
Hello DANIEL,
I just found this old post of yours where you wrote :
“my step-grandmother. She is "Duran y Chavez" “
The Jose Manuel Gómez that is married to Anna Maria Duran is a brother to an ancestor of Joe Kapp the first Mexican American quarterback in the NFL.
Their ancestor Francisca De la Rocha is also known as Francisca Madrid as the surname used by many in this family is “Madrid De la Rocha” or “Rocha De la Madrid.
Rick A. Ricci
Mygenes2000
Hello family! Since we all share a lot of the same surnames/lineages on here, I'm curious to see how many of us share DNA on GEDmatch. My Kit numbers are KK6796917, AF6582473.
Hi Everyone,
I recently got the results of my ancestry DNA and I wanted to share the findings.
Ethnicity Estimate:
Native American—North, Central, South 37%
Southern Zacatecas
Ancestry.com just updated my DNA Results. Did this happen to anyone else in the group? They claim estimates will change over time as more data from new regions becomes available.
My previous results and updated change:
Ethnicity Estimate:
Native American—North, Central, South 37%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>UPDATED TO 36%
Southern Zacatecas
Southeastern Zacatecas
Eastern Jalisco, Aguascalientes & Western Guanajuato
Western Aguascalientes, Northern Jalisco &
Southern Zacatecas
Northwestern Jalisco
Western Aguascalientes & Southern Zacatecas
Spain 22%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>UPDATED TO 39% (SLIGHT CHANGE)
France 19%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>UPDATED TO 3% (SIGNIFICANT CHANGE)
Portugal 6%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>UPDATED TO 7%
Ireland & Scotland 3%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>UPDATED TO 2%
Italy 2%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DROPPED OFF
Native American—Andean 2%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DROPPED OFF
Cameroon, Congo, & Southern Bantu Peoples 2%>>>>>>>>>>>>>NO CHANGE
European Jewish 2%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NO CHANGE
Senegal 1%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NO CHANGE
Northern Africa 1%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NO CHANGE
Mali 1%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NO CHANGE
Norway 1%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NO CHANGE
Basque 1%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>NO CHANGE
I realize ancestry.com claim the results are estimates, but I am starting to doubt how accurate the estimated results will be if they continue to change.
Mine changed also, I noticed they reduced the number of regions in Mexico/Jalisco that my ancestors were from. They had it broken down better before the update.
Indigenous Americas—Mexico
44%
Eastern Jalisco, Aguascalientes & Western Guanajuato
Eastern Jalisco & Western Guanajuato
Jalisco & Guanajuato Border
Spain
43%
European Jewish
3%
Cameroon, Congo & Southern Bantu Peoples
2%
Mali
2%
Basque
2%
Sardinia
1%
Italy
1%
Northern Africa
1%
England, Wales & Northwestern Europe
1%
Hola Rubén:
Tu porcentaje de ascendencia francesa sugiere no es muy lejano en el tiempo. Yo desciendo de la familia Demongin que se estableció en Guanajuato, aunque hay otra rama muy grande en Jalisco y otra en el norte de Veracruz.
Por éste motivo llevo cierto tiempo estudiando la emigración francesa a México, una de las fuentes más importantes es la página web Raíces Francesas en México, muchos de los emigrantes estaban asociados entre sí por motivos de negocios.
Si cuentas con tu árbol genealógico podrías investigar si tienes algún tatarabuelo con apellido francés y reiterar tu consulta, ya con algún dato. Por lo pronto te adelanto que hay las siguientes ramas principales de emigración:
1. En 1824 llegaron dos grupos de franceses al sur de Veracruz y algunos se establecieron en Ixtepec, Oaxaca.
2. En 1835 llegó un grupo al norte de Veracruz procedente de Champlitte Alto Saona, Franco Condado asentándose en Jicaltepec y luego fundaron San Rafael, de éste grupo proviene mi familia.
3. En tiempos de la intervención francesa llegaron muchos militares y algunos se quedaron a vivir en México.
4. A fines del siglo XIX llegaron los bearneses del sur de Francia quienes impulsaron la industria textil y del vestido.
Saludos
Marcelina
To my surprise, I have 23% French blood in my DNA. I have talked with my father's side of the family (distantly related), and they indicated that during the French intervention, many French soldiers came. He had a significant amount of French blood in him (lives near Monterrey) because his grandfather admitted being one of the French soldiers who opted to stay behind...but changed his surname, as the French did not enjoy a good reputation among Mexican nationals. In fact, in the town where my ancestors came from, there is a lore about how a Mexican girl falls in love with a French soldier and the townspeople found out. They hunted her down and dismembered her for "sleeping with the enemy". So, if changing of the surnames occurred frequently, I may never be able to trace the exact ancestor.
On the other hand, I also seem to have inherited some of the French blood from my mother's side of the family who came from the Tlaltenango, Zacatecas area. I know this as several of my cousins also tested with results of French blood - but to a lesser degree (12%). My family was from a "rancho" called Los Aguajes (I just visited it over the summer for the first time - so enchantingly beautiful). Los Aguajes is about a 15 minute car ride from Cicalco, which was considered a strong indigenous community....I've been able to trace my inter-related family all the way back to the early 1800's to Los Aguajes (Herrera line). I even have an old picture of an unknown family member with the brightest bluest eyes....but no French surname appears.....My question is why would they settle in such a remote area where it was not strategic for military movement?
Fellow “Ranchos” members:
Interessting and well written story. Indeed, the mexican society of the Virreinato was not kind to the native mexicans that were especially discriminated by the hacendados, the same families that we mainly study on Nuestros Ranchos.
I personally descend from Andrés Díaz de León, brother of Vicente Díaz de León, present in your story.
Have a good day
Tristán Díaz de León
Found an article in a newspaper from Encarnacion de Diaz dated 1973 written by Manuel J. Aguirre.
At what age did children do their confirmations?
In some cases, as soon as they were baptized. Confirmations are performed by the bishop, so whenever the bishop visited - which apparently wasn't too often, in some areas - anyone who wasn't already confirmed, was taken and confirmed.
Manny Díez Hermosillo
Thank you so much for replying so quickly.
Were confirmation required and did a lot of people do it?
Yes, during the Spanish Mandate, everyone was required to be Catholic and to follow church law and receive the sacraments. If you didn't go to mass on Sundays & holy days of obligation, or if you didn't receive communion nor attend confession, or if you didn't observe the fasts (like not eating meat on Fridays during Lent), you'd find yourself in trouble with the Inquisition. Nor could a couple live together without being married, without risk of excommunication and expulsion from your community.
Manny Díez Hermosillo
Thank you, these have been very helpful.
Has anyone ever not found a baptism registration between 1845-1860 in Jalisco? I have been searching for one for my great great grandfather for about a year now and no luck.
Hi Esther,
I know your struggle. I've been looking for the baptism record for my GG-Grandfather for a while now. I'm still searching documents, page by page - around the year I estimate he was born. All his brothers and sisters were baptized, so I know for a fact he was also.
Some of the years I've searched are stained/damaged, so they are very difficult to make out. Also, being a Hernandez from Los Altos adds another level of difficulty, since we are so many.
Good luck,
Carlos Hernandez-Gamiño Medrano
Oh my gosh that is so funny, that is exactly what I have been doing for a year and maybe longer. My great great father is a Hernandez Martinez and I have looked in Jesus Maria, La Barca, La Piedad, Ayotlan, Degollado, Penjamo, Muanuel doblado and Arandas. Maybe one day we will find them :-). Are you also a Medrano? My husbands last name is Medrano and I see you have Gamiño, I also have that last name in my family tree.
Thank you,
Esther
I am Hernandez-Gamiño by my paternal bloodline, traced back to Domingo Hernandez-Gamiño as my 9th Great-Grandfather . Most of my family's records are in Arandas, which they/we didn't stray very far from at all.
I am in fact also Medrano by my mother's father. He was a Medrano. I have his agnatic line traced back to some time in the 18th century, but have sort of hit a wall there. I don't know if this is because there is a lack of records, or if this was when they were baptized as Catholics, as many records for Medrano I have found, identify them as Indios.
I still wonder where they got the name, as it is a Spanish surname. I've read a lot of the time they would take the name from the jefe of the hacienda, when they were baptized. Still much more research to be done here!
Saludos Prima! Much luck to you!
I am Hernandez-Gamiño by my paternal bloodline, traced back to Domingo Hernandez-Gamiño as my 9th Great-Grandfather . Most of my family's records are in Arandas, which they/we didn't stray very far from at all.
I am in fact also Medrano by my mother's father. He was a Medrano. I have his agnatic line traced back to some time in the 18th century, but have sort of hit a wall there. I don't know if this is because there is a lack of records, or if this was when they were baptized as Catholics, as many records for Medrano I have found, identify them as Indios.
I still wonder where they got the name, as it is a Spanish surname. I've read a lot of the time they would take the name from the jefe of the hacienda, when they were baptized. Still much more research to be done here!
Saludos Prima! Much luck to you!
Hi cherna,
So yesterday I started looking in the confirmation books and I think I finally figured out why I can not find my great great grandfathers birth registration. His name is Buenaventura Hernandez Martinez on his marriage and death records. On some of his children's and his records I have seen other names that might be his siblings. When I did research on one of documents there was a Juana Hernandez with her husband and I looked up their marriage reg. and found out that was his sister but mentions she was hija natural and on the document her name is Martinez. I found two other names and that were her children but both named Hernandez and was not able to find birth reg. either. At this point I was thinking all her children but one was out of wedlock but gave them the last name Hernandez after her late husband (married for 7 years). So yesterday I looked page by page on these records, they mention the child, parents and padrinos names, so I looked only for the mothers name. Since the confirmations were done when the bishop was in town and I hear it was not often they were there. Families seem to take their kids at the same time. I noticed in several names they would take 3 children with the same mother but the fathers names would change but it was the same padrinos. Back in those days people died very young from illnesses and they would remarry. So I found her name with two children (Catasino and Ventura) on there but with different fathers. For Catasino I had a death reg. but with her late husbands last name but he had already passed away calculating his birth year and was never able to find a baptism reg. I searched for Catasino Moreno baptism and confirmed it is her because her parents names are on the reg. and he is hijo natural. The other child is Ventura Sanches and I will start searching for his baptism to see if it is him indeed. I'm still searching the confirmation records in hopes to find Juana and Modesto to confirm this theory. I think she just named them all Hernandez because it was easier for the family and maybe she was embarrassed to have these children out of wedlock. Just thought I mention this to you because it can be the same situation for you and others that can't find baptismal documents.
Esther
Same thing happened to me with a couple of my ancestors from Tamazula, while this particular town had records for the year I believed him to have been born, he was not in those.
His marriage said he was from that town and being 20 years old, so I looked 3 years prior and 3 after one by one and never found his baptism,
Thank you so much for replying, I thought it was only me but makes me feel confident that I did look in all the right places.
Yes, that's happened to me before; I do think that some baptism records and other church records weren't included, probably due to an oversight. I have decided that if I never find the record, I'll have to live with other records to help fill in the gaps.
Antonio de Mata y Rebollar is my Maternal (Martinez/Pena) 6th Great Grandfather. He was born about 1674. He married Rosa de Santos on 15 April 1695 in Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico.
The primary owners of Cienega de MAta were the the Rincon Gallardo family, these guys owned many haciendas across Guanajuato, San Luis Potosi, Zacatecas, Aguascalientasand Jalisco. Since the actual hacienda, is in Ojuelos de Jalisco which consists of a biggerarea, part of the hacienda was probably sold or inherited, im still researching but the Matahave some history, there since there is a huge concentration there. I know that the Gallardobuit the hacienda in 1593 and lost Cienega de Mata in 1740. So probably names changed.
Im still trying to figure out who the patriarch for the mata family is, the compound surnameMata y Rebollar note that two families merged. Rebollar is a common name in Aguascalientes,so my guess the first Mata married in Aguascalientes to a Rebollar.
Daniel
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: paul.gomez@verizon.net
> Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 11:21:52 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] ANTONIO DE MATA Y REBOLLAR
>
> Antonio de Mata y Rebollar is my Maternal (Martinez/Pena) 6th Great Grandfather. He was born about 1674. He married Rosa de Santos on 15 April 1695 in Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico. Question: Is the "Iglesia Cienega de Mata", Ojuelos, Jalisco, Mexico, in anyway historical connected to Antonio Mata or his family?
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> Paul Gomez
> Rancho Cucamonga, CA
I have a copy of Antonio's Marriage Record, and his wife's last name looks like "Santos", but I believe in a previous message, Daniel, that you translated her last name as "Bustos", which is supported by the names of their children assuming that "Bustos" is the name in the Record. What do you think?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino
Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 23:05:09
To: Patty Hoyos
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] ANTONIO DE MATA Y REBOLLAR
The primary owners of Cienega de MAta were the the Rincon Gallardo family, these guys owned many haciendas across Guanajuato, San Luis Potosi, Zacatecas, Aguascalientasand Jalisco. Since the actual hacienda, is in Ojuelos de Jalisco which consists of a biggerarea, part of the hacienda was probably sold or inherited, im still researching but the Matahave some history, there since there is a huge concentration there. I know that the Gallardobuit the hacienda in 1593 and lost Cienega de Mata in 1740. So probably names changed.
Im still trying to figure out who the patriarch for the mata family is, the compound surnameMata y Rebollar note that two families merged. Rebollar is a common name in Aguascalientes,so my guess the first Mata married in Aguascalientes to a Rebollar.
Daniel
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: paul.gomez@verizon.net
> Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 11:21:52 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] ANTONIO DE MATA Y REBOLLAR
>
> Antonio de Mata y Rebollar is my Maternal (Martinez/Pena) 6th Great Grandfather. He was born about 1674. He married Rosa de Santos on 15 April 1695 in Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico. Question: Is the "Iglesia Cienega de Mata", Ojuelos, Jalisco, Mexico, in anyway historical connected to Antonio Mata or his family?
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> Paul Gomez
> Rancho Cucamonga, CA
The complete compound name is DE LOS SANTOS BUSTOS, some records she uses SAntos others Bustossome SANTOS BUSTOS. Surnames are sometimes difficult with our ancestors since in the 12th-16thcenturies they really chose their names and didnt necessarily follow the paternal name, especiallyif they are named after an ancestor so if Juan Rodriguez married Maria Lopez and they had a daughternamed Juana she could be named Juana Garcia after her maternal grandmother, if we say Maria wasdaughter of Juan Lopez and Juana Garcia. Then compound names like de los Santos Bustos were commonand very popular over time many chopped them in half so today in Aguascalientes it would be commonto find people with the name SANTOS, though DE LOS SANTOS BUSTOS can still be found today.Not everyone chopped their names, my grandmother was Garcia de Leon, my latest Esparza ancestorwas in the 1880s and she was a Ruiz de Esparza. Surnames get complicated when two "houses"merge their names due to power, wealth
, or equal status or any other reason. This was super commonwith the Mendoza family, I figure many people wanted to carry this "illustrious name" down. This is why we get Gomez de Mendoza, Gutierrez de Mendoza, Hurtado de Mendoza, Gonzalez de Mendoza,Sanchez de Mendoza etc. They all came from the same family, of Toribio Hernandez de Arellanoand Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza.
Daniel
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: paul.gomez@verizon.net
> Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 14:37:00 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] ANTONIO DE MATA Y REBOLLAR
>
> I have a copy of Antonio's Marriage Record, and his wife's last name looks like "Santos", but I believe in a previous message, Daniel, that you translated her last name as "Bustos", which is supported by the names of their children assuming that "Bustos" is the name in the Record. What do you think?
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Mendez de Camino
> Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 23:05:09
> To: Patty Hoyos
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] ANTONIO DE MATA Y REBOLLAR
>
>
> The primary owners of Cienega de MAta were the the Rincon Gallardo family, these guys owned many haciendas across Guanajuato, San Luis Potosi, Zacatecas, Aguascalientasand Jalisco. Since the actual hacienda, is in Ojuelos de Jalisco which consists of a biggerarea, part of the hacienda was probably sold or inherited, im still researching but the Matahave some history, there since there is a huge concentration there. I know that the Gallardobuit the hacienda in 1593 and lost Cienega de Mata in 1740. So probably names changed.
> Im still trying to figure out who the patriarch for the mata family is, the compound surnameMata y Rebollar note that two families merged. Rebollar is a common name in Aguascalientes,so my guess the first Mata married in Aguascalientes to a Rebollar.
> Daniel
>
>
>
>> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> From: paul.gomez@verizon.net
>> Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 11:21:52 -0700
>> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] ANTONIO DE MATA Y REBOLLAR
>>
>> Antonio de Mata y Rebollar is my Maternal (Martinez/Pena) 6th Great Grandfather. He was born about 1674. He married Rosa de Santos on 15 April 1695 in Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico. Question: Is the "Iglesia Cienega de Mata", Ojuelos, Jalisco, Mexico, in anyway historical connected to Antonio Mata or his family?
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>> Paul Gomez
>> Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Do you their Baptismal Records perchance?
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Mendez de Camino
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 08:06:25
To: Patty Hoyos
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] ANTONIO DE MATA Y REBOLLAR
The complete compound name is DE LOS SANTOS BUSTOS, some records she uses SAntos others Bustossome SANTOS BUSTOS. Surnames are sometimes difficult with our ancestors since in the 12th-16thcenturies they really chose their names and didnt necessarily follow the paternal name, especiallyif they are named after an ancestor so if Juan Rodriguez married Maria Lopez and they had a daughternamed Juana she could be named Juana Garcia after her maternal grandmother, if we say Maria wasdaughter of Juan Lopez and Juana Garcia. Then compound names like de los Santos Bustos were commonand very popular over time many chopped them in half so today in Aguascalientes it would be commonto find people with the name SANTOS, though DE LOS SANTOS BUSTOS can still be found today.Not everyone chopped their names, my grandmother was Garcia de Leon, my latest Esparza ancestorwas in the 1880s and she was a Ruiz de Esparza. Surnames get complicated when two "houses"merge their names due to power, wealth
, or equal status or any other reason. This was super commonwith the Mendoza family, I figure many people wanted to carry this "illustrious name" down. This is why we get Gomez de Mendoza, Gutierrez de Mendoza, Hurtado de Mendoza, Gonzalez de Mendoza,Sanchez de Mendoza etc. They all came from the same family, of Toribio Hernandez de Arellanoand Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza.
Daniel
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> From: paul.gomez@verizon.net
> Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 14:37:00 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] ANTONIO DE MATA Y REBOLLAR
>
> I have a copy of Antonio's Marriage Record, and his wife's last name looks like "Santos", but I believe in a previous message, Daniel, that you translated her last name as "Bustos", which is supported by the names of their children assuming that "Bustos" is the name in the Record. What do you think?
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Mendez de Camino
> Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 23:05:09
> To: Patty Hoyos
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] ANTONIO DE MATA Y REBOLLAR
>
>
> The primary owners of Cienega de MAta were the the Rincon Gallardo family, these guys owned many haciendas across Guanajuato, San Luis Potosi, Zacatecas, Aguascalientasand Jalisco. Since the actual hacienda, is in Ojuelos de Jalisco which consists of a biggerarea, part of the hacienda was probably sold or inherited, im still researching but the Matahave some history, there since there is a huge concentration there. I know that the Gallardobuit the hacienda in 1593 and lost Cienega de Mata in 1740. So probably names changed.
> Im still trying to figure out who the patriarch for the mata family is, the compound surnameMata y Rebollar note that two families merged. Rebollar is a common name in Aguascalientes,so my guess the first Mata married in Aguascalientes to a Rebollar.
> Daniel
>
>
>
>> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> From: paul.gomez@verizon.net
>> Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 11:21:52 -0700
>> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] ANTONIO DE MATA Y REBOLLAR
>>
>> Antonio de Mata y Rebollar is my Maternal (Martinez/Pena) 6th Great Grandfather. He was born about 1674. He married Rosa de Santos on 15 April 1695 in Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico. Question: Is the "Iglesia Cienega de Mata", Ojuelos, Jalisco, Mexico, in anyway historical connected to Antonio Mata or his family?
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>>
>> Paul Gomez
>> Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Hello Paul,
I'm wondering if Rosa de Santos is somehow connected to my 6th Great Grandpa (Juan Antonio De Los Santo Gomez) from Colotlán, Jalisco. Birth 1758.
Thank you,
Jorge Gomez
Hello Paul,
I'm wondering if Rosa de Santos is somehow connected to my 6th Great Grandpa (Juan Antonio De Los Santo Gomez) from Colotlán, Jalisco. Birth 1758.
Thank you,
Jorge Gomez
I'm asking this since a few months ago i got my maternal grandma's mtdna results, which were c1c4.
Hi Katy
Do you mean Maria de Esquibel? I have her death record. (I descend from her quite a few times) It classifies her as Spanish and says she left a will
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-YY4K-J?i=200&cc=1804458
Same thing happened to me. I got A2d1a if I remember right with an ancestor in Tlaltenango who was always listed as Spanish. I have Maria born about 1580 and my earliest known mtdna ancestor Beatriz Delgado born about 1595. I kind of assumed the Amerindian was further back, maybe their maternal grandmother or even great grandmother who married a Spanish guy shortly after the original conquest.
~ Andrea
Yes, i'm refering to maria esquibel, and thanks for the link to the death record. Too bad i don't know where to find her will. and i think it's likely more recent than a great grandma in maria esquibel's case given she was born in 1580's;either she(talking about maria esquivel) herself, her mom, or perhaps even her maternal grandma was full amerindian most likely(thought i think one of the former two is more likely).
hi everyone hope all is well ! i have moved off to colorado springs and we've got over 10 inches of snow and supposed to get more lol. happy halloween or dia de los muertos to everyone.
There is a Maria Ramona Ramirez that is the daughter of Juan Jose Ramirez and Maria Josefa Gómez. She was baptized on 8/March/1829 Aguascalientes.
Her paternal grandparents are Diego Ramirez and Manuela Martinez. Her maternal grandparents are José María Gómez and Paula Hernandez.
The baptismal date doesn’t fit with a marriage date before 1829 so this is not the Ramona Ramirez that you are looking for unless your marriage date is incorrect.
Here is a marriage record with similar names but the grooms name is not Alejo.
Juan Adauto Sánchez (son of José María Sánchez and María Eusebia González) married 7/Sep/1814 Tlaxcalilla, San Miguelito, San Luis Potosí to María Ramona Ramirez (daughter of José María Gómez and María Josefa Hermenegilda Gómez)
Rick A. Ricci
hi rick good to hear from you and everyone again. yes maria ramona ramirez is my 5th great grandma that had been born in 1829 from aguascientes, mexico that married juan adauto sanchez. they in turn had my 4th great grandfather known as jose alexo sanchez. in the case of maria eusebia gonzalez and jose maria sanchez i dont have jose maria sanchez down as a father for juan adauto sanchez . i have a person by the name of jose candelario sanchez listed as a husband for maria eusebia gonzalez and yes maria eusebia gonzalez is another brick wall included for finding parents now that im back online and untangling roots lol. i have marriage record for them as of Marriage
3 February 1785 • Santa Catarina,Rioverde,San Luis Potosi,Mexico
Jose Candelario Sanchez
i have a question regarding jose maria gomez was he a father or something of the relevance to maria josefa hermengilda gomez ? on ancestry.com i had noticed the spelling of alejo but i think it is spelled alexo instead. im back and forth between family search also thank you as im working on these lines of sanchez , ramirez and or gonzalez.
I am sorry. I meant to write “José Maria Ramírez.” He is the husband of María Josefa Hermenegilda Gómez.and father of MARIA Ramona Ramírez
In the marriage record of Jose Adauto Sánchez and María Ramona Ramirez you will see that The father of the groom is named “Jose Maria Sanchez”.
Here is the marriage record:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9GGW-B35?i=325&cc=1860…
Here is Jose Alexo Sanchez’s baptismal record:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GG89-9V4T?i=226&cc=186…
Rick A. Ricci
Not sure if you are still looking for info for Barbaro Soria, but recent census
info on family search has tied several Soria/Osorio/Osoria families together
in the Juchipila/Moyahua areas.
Barbaro Soria (in earlier records written as Osorio/Osoria) is listed in the 1841 Juchipila padron (census), along with parents and siblings. He was listed in the town of Amoxochitl (also listed as Amotochil).
He was listed as age 10 (born circa 1831) Likely in Amotochil, as his father (Juan Soria (Osorio/Osoria) is found in the 1813 Juchipila Padron (census), also in Amoxochitl.
The 1813 Juchipila census lists no ages, but lists family members.
The 1841 census:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89K8-K5J5?i=652
The 1813 census:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89K8-KPFB?i=862&cat=23…
My Juchpila area database/website has all of this info, plus many Juchipila
area dispensations, including several Soria/Osorio/Osoria families.
From what has been pieced together the following Soria/Osorio/Osoria families:
(I use Osorio surname for consistency for searching the records)
Barbaro Osorio was the son of Juan Osorio/Maria Justa Estrada
Juan Osorio was the son of Antonio Maria de Osorio/Maria Rosalia Bacilia Rodrigues de Portugal.
Antonio Maria de Osorio was the son of Jose Antonio de Osorio/Mariana Juana Gertrudis
Gonsales de Rubalcaba
Jose Antonio de Osorio was the son of Esteban de Osorio/Luisa Manuela de Plasencia
Esteban de Osorio was the son of Juan Jose de Osorio
The web site:
www.clingram.com/famhis1/index.php
I have not studied the Soria name and am unable to provide long branches of this name like I can of most surnames from Jalisco and Zacatecas. However I may be able to help you in your reflection of why your research has failed to make the connections that you are looking for. You stated that you are familiar with the origins of the Soria name but did not detail any of this familiarity. What other variations are there, if any? Is Siorda a variation of Soria? In the timeframe where many of our ancestors came to the new world from Spain many of them used different surnames then their fathers. Have you done extensive research on the Soria women? This is usually more difficult as we sometimes find the women using multiple surnames. Have you looked into the "archivos secretos".? Have you looked through court documents that refer to Sorias in Spain and Mexico? Often there are court documents that clarify the relationship between the emigrants from Spain as they fight over assets left behind. Some times there is no connection to be found as the emigrants purposely erase all signs of the past, including family, as they seek a new start in the new world.
When research does not produce the results you wish then it is time to try something different. But before you do that, be sure to backtrack and review all notes from past research as there may be a gold nugget that you didn't previously think was important, but when added to other information that you have compiled, will gain greater significance.
Hope this helps,
R A Ricci
Thank you very much for your response. I am aware of the variations of the name but so far have only been looking at Soria/de Soria only because that is what my found-documents indicate--thus far. I had not attempted much of a search in Spain as it seemed pointless without knowing the specific transition point from there to Mexico, but the perspectives you offered are quite interesting and worth looking into. I have attempted to look for the women as well but will attempt to pursue this more deeply now. I will also backtrack once more and glean documents for any possible hidden "nugget." Thank you for the new ideas.
To all on this forum, I realize as well that I was quite remiss--failing to introduce myself with a greeting. I do apologize:
Hi,
My name is Isidro C. Soria Jr., son of Isidro Chaves Soria, who is son of Juan Villalobos Soria and Manuela Portillo Chaves. I began researching my family branches about 10 years ago and this is one of only a few seemingly insurmountable walls that has truly frustrated me. I joined this site a few months ago but hesitated to call for help until after I had exhausted other avenues. I am sincerely grateful for any help received.
ICSoria
I've have recently trying to look for some Soria in Nochistlán, but I've haven't go anywhere, I've found out that one of my Ancestors's sister; María Quiralte, (I didn't know her existence) married some one with this last name and lived at the beginning of the 1700's in Nochistlán. Unfortunately the record (a Dispensa) that mention this doesn't have the name of this Soria person. Looking on the FamilySearch index, I haven't found any Soria in this time period in this place, there are a few on Pinos though, but I can't tell if they are the same families. Important to mention here is that this people (my ancestor's sister descendants) are called "De Osoria" and "De Osorio", but a generation later in the mentioned Dispensa they are called Soria. I also look a few records with the Siordia name, but found out no connections with the rest of the Soria/Osoria records. Now this family from María Quiralte are also closed to (based on the godparents names and her kids/grandkids marriages) with the Sandoval and the Rodriguez de Santa Ana. I presume that there may be a connection also between this an the Soria/Osoria, but at this point I can't really tell.
I know this isn't much of a help, but I just wanted to comment the couple of findings I did. My thinking is that Pinos would be a good place to look into.
Thank you for responding. You have helped confirm that I need to begin looking at other name variations. I did retreive records for my grandfather's Villalobos side going into Nochistlan to Matrimonio de Francisco De Villalobos Y Maria Carrillo in 1741. Was hoping it would offer more answers but it stopped there.
ICSoria
Dear Isidro Soria,
I think you may have some success if you extend your search. You mentioned: Barbara Soria (wife – Sostenes Luna), Juan Soria (wife – Justa Estrada), and Antonio Soria (wife – Rosalia Portagal Rodriques) They may have a connection to the Alvarez de Luna family and/ or the Rodriguez Portugal family. I believe that Rosalia may be Maria Rosalia Rodriguez de Portugal. Check out San Juan de Los Lagos and Jalostotitlan and Santa Maria De Los Lagos, Lagos De Moreno, Jalisco and Guanajuato
Rosalia Portugal Rodriguez?
Name: Juana Rosalia Munoz Rodriguez
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 29 Apr 1771
Christening Place: SAN JUAN DE LOS LAGOS,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name: Thomas Antonio Munoz De La Barba
Mother's Name: Maria Franca. Rodriguez Portugal
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C60338-5 , System Origin: Mexico-ODM , GS Film number: 220646 ,
Antonio De Soria
mentioned in the record of Barthola Soria
Name: Antonio De Soria
Gender: Male
Wife: Juana Rosa
Daughter: Barthola Soria
Other information in the record of Barthola Soria
from Mexico, Baptisms
Name: Barthola Soria
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 15 Sep 1705
Christening Place: SANTA FE,GUANAJUATO,GUANAJUATO,MEXICO
Father's Name: Antonio De Soria
Mother's Name: Juana Rosa
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C60798-4 , System Origin: Mexico-ODM , GS Film number: 668789 ,
Antto. De Soria
mentioned in the record of Joseph Adriano Soria
Name: Antto. De Soria
Gender: Male
Wife: Juana Rosa
Son: Joseph Adriano Soria
Other information in the record of Joseph Adriano Soria
from Mexico, Baptisms
Name: Joseph Adriano Soria
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 15 Sep 1709
Christening Place: NUESTRA SENORA DE GUANAJUATO,GUANAJUATO,GUANAJUATO,MEXICO
Father's Name: Antto. De Soria
Mother's Name: Juana Rosa
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C60824-5 , System Origin: Mexico-ODM , GS Film number: 792434 ,
Antonio Silbestre Sora
mentioned in the record of Jose Visente Nicolas Sora
Name: Antonio Silbestre Sora
Gender: Male
Wife: Maria Rosalia
Son: Jose Visente Nicolas Sora
Other information in the record of Jose Visente Nicolas Sora
from Mexico, Baptisms
Name: Jose Visente Nicolas Sora
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 29 Sep 1788
Christening Place: San Miguel Arcángel, San Miguel de Allende, Guanajuato, Mexico
Birth Date: 24 Sep 1788
Father's Name: Antonio Silbestre Sora
Mother's Name: Maria Rosalia
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02870-7 , System Origin: Mexico-EASy , GS Film number: 794995 , Reference ID: yr 1782-1790 p 263 ,
Anttonio Soria
mentioned in the record of Juliana Soria
Name: Anttonio Soria
Gender: Male
Wife: Juana Maria
Daughter: Juliana Soria
Other information in the record of Juliana Soria
from Mexico, Baptisms
Name: Juliana Soria
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 04 Jan 1758
Christening Place: SANTA MARIA DE LOS LAGOS,LAGOS DE MORENO,JALISCO,MEXICO
Father's Name: Anttonio Soria
Mother's Name: Juana Maria
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C60413-1 , System Origin: Mexico-ODM , GS Film number: 221412 ,
Juan Antonio De Zoria
mentioned in the record of Juan Antonio De Zoria and Maria Rosa
Name: Juan Antonio De Zoria
Spouse's Name: Maria Rosa
Event Date: 14 Jul 1767
Event Place: San Francisco,Acambaro,Guanajuato,Mexico
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M60679-8 , System Origin: Mexico-ODM , GS Film number: 712756
I also found some information that de Soria was not originally a surname but refers to an area in the Castilla/Leon region that had a large jewish population.
Good luck in your search!
R A Ricci
I have indeed looked at most of these indexed names without success as to direct connections via documents. I understand what you are suggesting and have indeed found a few connections at least by way of relatives, such as siblings. I have all related documents recorded on my Ancestry.com tree. I do not wish to sound dismissive of anyone's attempts to help. At your suggestion, I have begun going through documents more intently to look for ancillary information previously missed. For one, I am beginning to go back and search informacion de matrimonios for extra information. I had not delved into this as much previously because exact date searches are so tedious to look up in those documents. I am also looking through any other available indexes and documents I can find.
Again, I extend my thanks that you or anyone else who would even take the time to look into this and offer help.
Isidro
Dear Isidro
Don't give up. Here are a few dead ends that ended up not being dead ends.
Close to forty years of genealogy has brought many frustrations at times. I was stuck on some seemingly deadends that I thought would stay just that. My fathers ancestor Salvador Clemente de la Torre was a deadend for close to thirty years until I found a marriage dispensation that Claudia Casillas had posted on her Guadalajara dispensation index. I have found information in the information matrimonial that was not in the marriage record. A couple of times the marriage record ended in a deadend with the marriage record saying that the bride and groom had no blood relationship but I later found a dispensation stating that after they were married someone came forward and stated that they were indeed related and a dispensation was granted way after the marriage.
Another time I was searching for Duran in Zacatecas and the dates did not seem to match so I tossed many of my notes aside because the pieces of the puzzle did not fit. It turns out that the pieces were the correct pieces and most of the dates were correct but that my search for a certain marriage date threw everything off The situation was clarified when I found a document saying that the first five children were born before the parents were actually married. Because of the kids birthdates I had assumed that the parents couldn't have been the ones I was looking for since their marriage was so much later than five of the siblings.
Many many years ago I became stuck on my mother in laws lomelli line. I had thought that I had possibly found the parents to my mother in laws Lomeli ancestor. I was invited by Mike Gutierrez to meet with his genealogy group. Mike introduced me to Steven Hernandez and other dedicated genealogists. While they were positive and complimentary of my vast research, they pointed out that they disagreed with two of my possible conclusions. Though I knew that I had those lines in my tree only as a possibility it still hurt to hear that they could not be possible because of information that they had in their possession. It turned out that they were right on this Lomeli line and ii was deadend until a few years ago when I found a document listing a brother This document gave some information, clues to his father but no name. It wasn't until I tried to help you out with your Soria line that I came across a document that names the father of the brother. I took a break from looking up your information and found a document that I had been looking for many years. Since the previous document that I had found a decade ago stated that they were full brothers, the line has now been extended over a century to Carlo Lomelin. It turns out that I had unsuccessful searching through the brother because I had found too many marriages of someone with the brothers name and I had to put them aside since I could not tell which one was his brother. It turns out that the brother was married four times and the four marriages that name him are naming the same person. Their parents weren't married so it was only through the brothers records where he misrepresents his parents marital state by stating he is their legitimate son that I have been able to confirm the identity of the father.
This Lomeli line is very important because my previous success in researching the Lomeli lines had been through my ancestors. This new line is my mother In laws and since this is her maiden name it has added significance to her and her siblings I can now trace them to Carlo Lomellini.
The other line that the Orange County genealogists said wasn't possible because of their information I put aside for many years until I later took another look at it and found that the line that I had originally researched was possible and more probable than the line that they claimed. Remember to write down all your sources so you can go book and look at them later. Many times something that seems insignificant at the first reading becomes very significant on subsequent readings. One of the reasons that they had given for disagreeing with my proposed line was because I had mistranslated a word. Right away I agreed with them that I had mistranslated the word and tossed the line aside. It turns out that they were correct about the mistranslation but they were incorrect about its significance. It was a very significant term on subsequent readings and when combined with other information actually reinforces the possibility of the line that I was proposing. But it was only with the added information from another source that the term took on a new life. This line still hasn't been confirmed but it is supported by Jaime Holcombes work.
Good luck comes through hard work. Sometimes the good luck takes a long time. Sometimes it comes like an avalanche.
Good luck,
Rick A Ricci
Rick,
Thank you so much for your in-depth response. It gave me quite a bit to think about and I will file it away and review it off and on, I'm sure. You reminded me of one name in my Villalobos line that did not quite make sense at the time but I saved a copy in my folders anyway. A few years later, I re-approached the name via the subject's niece which I then happened to find, and it lead to a confirmation of the previous connection. I am now, as per your previous suggestion, attempting to look into all relatives mentioned in documents. I didn't do a very good job of adding citations when I began downloading documents but I have rectified that some of those searches, as well as going back and adding more information to names I have been reviewing. I will get better at this I am sure, I just hope it doesn't take me another ten years before finding these names that have been especially frustrating me. Thank you again,
Isidro
Dear Isidro,
When you mentioned the surname Soria I immediately thought of Siordia which is a Surname that I had come across in the research of my family tree. An ancestor of mine, Francisco Rodriguez Bajo as married twice. I descend from his second wife, thomasa Rosa de Ulloa y sepulveda. His first wife is where I first came across the name Siordia His first wife was known as Teresa Rodriguez Ponce, Teresa ponce siorda and Teresa Sordia.
Teresa ponce de siorda is the daughter of a Nicolas Rodriguez ponce aka Nicolas Ponce de Siordia.
Nicolas is the son of Frncisco Rodriguez Ponce el mozo ( Junior ) and Juana Avalos y Bocanegra.
Francisco el mozo is the son of Francisco Rodriguez Ponce (senior) and Juana Siordia.
Juana Siordia had many siblings and nephews and nieces who used the surname Siordia.
Besides some Siordias using the ponce and Rodriguez last name, some Siordia family members sometimes used Fernandez de Vaulus.
Juana Siordias parents are Maria de Gabay and Pedro Fernandez de Vaulus. The Sirordia comes from his side of the family.
Maria de Gabay is a daughter of Martin Gabay el de Navarro and Petronila Sotelo de Moctezuma ( great grandaughter to Moctezuma II).
Good luck in your research,
R A Ricci
I too have not done any research on "Soria" but my maternal Aunt had a sister, Natividad Soria (1910) married to a Benign Sandoval. The family was from Zacatecas. It got my attention when you said that one of your ancestors were close to the "Sandoval" family. Natividad parents were Jesus Soria and Nicolasa Soto. This is all I have which I know is very little. Just wanted to comment.
Hello, I have several Soria's in my family tree from the Moyahua/Juchipila/Amoxochitl area but have failed to go past 1800 with my gggf francisco soria and his wife teresa rodriguez (from el ranchito).
I found 2 more that I would kindly like some feedback on...some of the words just arent clear to me...thank you!!
First doc citation at the top of the page..
Juan de Villalpando married Francisca de la Rocha on June 11, 1618.
The many guesses that the surname of Juan’s mother Francisca are Mariza, Marica, Marquez, Matiga, Mancha, Marcha are close, but since we find her also using the surname Rocha then I believe that she is from the same family as my mother-in-law’s maternal grandfather “Rocha De la Madrid” aka “Madrid De la Rocha” aka “Rocha” aka “Madrid”
Rick A. Ricci
Robert Martinez
Hello, I am in New Mexico and also descend from Juan de Villalpando on my father's side. I found a record in San Felipe, Guanajuato for a Juan de Villalpando marrying Francisca de la Rocha on June 11, 1618. These are probably Juan's parents. Anyone have more info?
It's too bad this isn't in a better format. Some names might be easier to
read if it were. Jpg isn't meant for documents.
What I could make out of the first is the following -
(torn) ? Juo [Juan] de villalpando y franca [francisca] (torn)
? ya difuntos con ursula de olaes(torn)
de ? de olaes y isabel ? ; fueon (torn)
drinos [padrinos] el alcalde nicolas de villalpando (torn)
de vielma. y por verdad lo firne en dicho dia
mes y año.
I can't make out the first name of the father of ursula de olae, or the last
name of the mother but it looks like Cos.
It looks like a lot of people need to correct their family tree to show that
Juan de Villalpando Olaes is from León, Guanajuato.
The second document
En veinte y seis dias del Mes de julio de mil (torn)
sientos Y setenta Y quatro en esta iglecia Barro(torn)
de Leon case con lisencia del ? Cura > Don Josep(torn)
de Ulloa con Ursula de Olais viuda de Juan de Vill(torn)
se les dijo missa Y se hisierion las diligencias ?(torn)
manda el Santo Consilio fue su padrindo Antto de herr(torn)
y Doña Maria de herrera -
Viuda means widow and it is after the name of Ursula de Olais [Olaes] saying
she is the widow of Juan de Villalpando. Obviously she remarried with Joseph
de Ulloa
Saludos,
Armando
On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 5:20 PM, wrote:
> I found 2 more that I would kindly like some feedback on...some of the
> words just arent clear to me...thank you!!
>
> First doc citation at the top of the page..
>
> http://i30.photobucket.com/**albums/c302/1traviesa/**
> marriageunabletoread1page.jpg
>
> Second doc citation at the bottom of the page...
>
> http://i30.photobucket.com/**albums/c302/1traviesa/**
> UrsuladeolaesmarriagetoJosephd**eUlloa16601page.jpg
>
> does anyone know what it means when they put "viuda" before a persons
> name?? -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>
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>
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>
I think the first one is started on another page but the book is out of order and really damaged so I don't know which Villalpando Ursula is marrying. Her parents are Martin de Olaes and Isabel Cortes. I'm searching for her birth record to see if she is Maria Ursula because Maria is on my Juan Villalpando record. And possibly if her son Juan migrated to Jerez. I found another VillAlpando that married a Francisca but her last name is Olaes too. So I'm fully confused. Lol. Who was looking for a Marcos that father is Tomas...I found Marcos birth record in Leon.
malia Hernandez Arias
There are a lot of websites, including a post by Emilie Garcia, that mention
a son of Juan de Villalpando and Ursula Olaes also named Juan de Villalpando
that was a native of la villa de leon, and a soldier of Santa Fe, [New
Mexico] when he married Ana Maria Romero, June 2, 1694.
Since both the name Ursula and the surname Olaes aren't the most common I am
going to assume that she is the same one in the document you provided. Since
the above info also states he was from León, again I am going to make the
assumption that it is the same Ursula de Olaes. Therefore, the groom most
likely is Juan de Villalpando that Ursula de Olaes is marrying.
Armando
On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 7:05 PM, wrote:
> I think the first one is started on another page but the book is out of
> order and really damaged so I don't know which Villalpando Ursula is
> marrying. Her parents are Martin de Olaes and Isabel Cortes. I'm searching
> for her birth record to see if she is Maria Ursula because Maria is on my
> Juan Villalpando record. And possibly if her son Juan migrated to Jerez. I
> found another VillAlpando that married a Francisca but her last name is
> Olaes too. So I'm fully confused. Lol. Who was looking for a Marcos that
> father is Tomas...I found Marcos birth record in Leon. malia Hernandez Arias
>
I forgot to mention that the second document shows who Ursula de Olaes
married in the first document. It states it was Juan de Villalpando. His
name has the common abbreviation for Juan which is Juo. Obviously the priest
wanted the two documents near each other and he found space in the preceding
page for her second marriage and as you stated we can see the dates and
years are not in order based on the link you provided.
https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?cc=1860…
Armando
On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Armando wrote:
> There are a lot of websites, including a post by Emilie Garcia, that
> mention a son of Juan de Villalpando and Ursula Olaes also named Juan de
> Villalpando that was a native of la villa de leon, and a soldier of Santa
> Fe, [New Mexico] when he married Ana Maria Romero, June 2, 1694.
>
> Since both the name Ursula and the surname Olaes aren't the most common I
> am going to assume that she is the same one in the document you provided.
> Since the above info also states he was from León, again I am going to make
> the assumption that it is the same Ursula de Olaes. Therefore, the groom
> most likely is Juan de Villalpando that Ursula de Olaes is marrying.
>
> Armando
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 7:05 PM, wrote:
>
>> I think the first one is started on another page but the book is out of
>> order and really damaged so I don't know which Villalpando Ursula is
>> marrying. Her parents are Martin de Olaes and Isabel Cortes. I'm searching
>> for her birth record to see if she is Maria Ursula because Maria is on my
>> Juan Villalpando record. And possibly if her son Juan migrated to Jerez. I
>> found another VillAlpando that married a Francisca but her last name is
>> Olaes too. So I'm fully confused. Lol. Who was looking for a Marcos that
>> father is Tomas...I found Marcos birth record in Leon. malia Hernandez Arias
>>
Hi Amalia,
I'm interested in what you've found so far in the Villalpando family using the Leon Archive. You should publish your findings ASAP. I read you
found Juan and Marcos birth record when were they born? Thank you. Please email me to my new email, mendezdetorres@hotmail.com
Daniel Méndez Camino
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: hernandezmol@msn.com
> Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 17:05:44 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Villalpando
>
> I think the first one is started on another page but the book is out of order and really damaged so I don't know which Villalpando Ursula is marrying. Her parents are Martin de Olaes and Isabel Cortes. I'm searching for her birth record to see if she is Maria Ursula because Maria is on my Juan Villalpando record. And possibly if her son Juan migrated to Jerez. I found another VillAlpando that married a Francisca but her last name is Olaes too. So I'm fully confused. Lol. Who was looking for a Marcos that father is Tomas...I found Marcos birth record in Leon.
> malia Hernandez Arias
>
Here is the link to his record of baptismin 1649:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S7WF-SRMQ-B9?i=11&wc=3VWP-7… '
"México, Guanajuato, registros parroquiales, 1519-1984," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S7WF-SRMQ-B9?cc=1860831&wc=3VWP… : 20 May 2014), León > Sagrario > Bautismos de españoles 1636-1715, 1718-1748 > image 12 of 598; parroquias Católicas, Guanajuato (Catholic Church parishes, Guanajuato).
I can read that his father is Thomas de Villalpando but I can only read Maria for his mother.
Padrinos are Juan de Villalpando and Maria de Aguirre (i think).
Regards
Denise
Hi Denise,
Thanks for posting the link to this record. I have seen this one before, the letter here is not the best, mostly faded I think. If you compare other records you will see she is María Vélez or María Veliz depending on the record.
Daniel MdTC
The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca _____ Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or perhaps it the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a capital M so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g or an I with a Z a? help!!
Amalia Hernandez Arias
Sorry if I missed previous exchanges on your question...but where is the document located (online films ?)that you're viewing and trying to "figure-out."
Pat Silva Corbera
Papagaia's Journey of Discovry
----- Original Message -----
From: hernandezmol@msn.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:00:55 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca _____ Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or perhaps it the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a capital M so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g or an I with a Z a? help!!
Amalia Hernandez Arias
The entry she is speaking about is at the top left of the following
https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?cc=1860…
I can't make out Francisca's last name either.
(torn) ? Juo [Juan] de villalpando y franca [francisca] (torn)
? ya difuntos con ursula de olaes(torn)
de martin de olaes y isabel cortes fueron (torn)
drinos [padrinos] el alcalde nicolas de villalpando (torn)
de vielma y por verdad lo firme en dicho dia
mes y año.
Armando
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:
> Sorry if I missed previous exchanges on your question...but where is the
> document located (online films ?)that you're viewing and trying to
> "figure-out."
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
>
>
>
> Papagaia's Journey of Discovry
>
> www.patriciajcorbera.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hernandezmol@msn.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:00:55 PM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
>
> The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca _____
> Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or perhaps it
> the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a capital M
> so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g or an I
> with a Z a? help!!
>
> Amalia Hernandez Arias
Sorry Pat, thank you Armando..i have googled so many variations of what i can make out...any input will be appreciated.
Amalia Hernandez Arias
Amalia,
This is a tough one, I looked at it and couldn't make anything out.
Alicia
________________________________
From: "hernandezmol@msn.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
Sorry Pat, thank you Armando..i have googled so many variations of what i can make out...any input will be appreciated.
Amalia Hernandez Arias
Amalia,
Since my husband is descended from the Villalpandos, I have gotten involved in trying to find Francisca's surname, because, like you said, "she is driving me crazy!"
I found a Francisco Villalpando born to a Juan Villalpando and a Teresa Lopez in Leon, on 14 Apr 1681, and I found a marriage for a Jn. de Villalpando and a Franca. de la Rocha, in San Felipe, Guanajuato on 11 Jun 1618, but the images for that year are not online. I sent a message to Family Search to tell them they indexed it, but didnt put up the image. They do that a lot, or vice versa---you find an image that is not indexed.
I looked at the surname on the image for Juan and Ursula, and it looks like Noriega to me, but that is probably because I am descended from Noriegas. The priest's name is Marquez, another of my ancestors, so if you look at the M in his signature, it doesn't look like the first letter of "marega" or whatever that is on the document.
By the way, I can't find this marriage in the index. What is the date----August ?, 1672?
Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2011 22:31:17 -0700
> From: alliecar@pacbell.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
>
> Amalia,
>
> This is a tough one, I looked at it and couldn't make anything out.
>
> Alicia
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "hernandezmol@msn.com"
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
>
> Sorry Pat, thank you Armando..i have googled so many variations of what i can make out...any input will be appreciated.
>
> Amalia Hernandez Arias
Emilie,
sorry i overlooked your post...I found that marriage record for Juan and Francisca it was indexed but out of order hard to locate. it doesn't say much but their names. but now that i know that her name is Francisca Marcha, im wondering if it is this de la Rocha. Really close. More investigating for me! lol thanks for helping...
Amalia Hernandez Arias
Thank you Armando for sharing this information with me. I'll get back to you and Amalia with my input once I view the document and film...
Pat Silva Corbera
Papagaia's Journey of Discovry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Armando"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:31:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
The entry she is speaking about is at the top left of the following
https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?cc=1860…
I can't make out Francisca's last name either.
(torn) ? Juo [Juan] de villalpando y franca [francisca] (torn)
? ya difuntos con ursula de olaes(torn)
de martin de olaes y isabel cortes fueron (torn)
drinos [padrinos] el alcalde nicolas de villalpando (torn)
de vielma y por verdad lo firme en dicho dia
mes y año.
Armando
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:
> Sorry if I missed previous exchanges on your question...but where is the
> document located (online films ?)that you're viewing and trying to
> "figure-out."
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
>
>
>
> Papagaia's Journey of Discovry
>
> www.patriciajcorbera.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hernandezmol@msn.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:00:55 PM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
>
> The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca _____
> Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or perhaps it
> the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a capital M
> so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g or an I
> with a Z a? help!!
>
> Amalia Hernandez Arias
Armando, Amelia and Members,
I think the first letter is as you said "M" I think what looks like Mas is not "s" but a "t" looks the same as in "ja da funtos"...My guess the name is Matiga...if that's even a surname...
At first I thought the surname was Marques...but after looking at the Priest's signature, they didn't look the same to me.
Pat Silva corbera
Very intersting, especially the surname Villalpando...I've not seen that before.
Have any children of Ursula and Juan been located, hoping that the AP and AM names are mentioned?
Papagaia's Journey of Discovery
patriciajcorbera.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Corbera"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 1:29:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
Thank you Armando for sharing this information with me. I'll get back to you and Amalia with my input once I view the document and film...
Pat Silva Corbera
----- Original Message -----
From: "Armando"
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:31:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
The entry she is speaking about is at the top left of the following
https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?cc=1860…
I can't make out Francisca's last name either.
(torn) ? Juo [Juan] de villalpando y franca [francisca] (torn)
? ya difuntos con ursula de olaes(torn)
de martin de olaes y isabel cortes fueron (torn)
drinos [padrinos] el alcalde nicolas de villalpando (torn)
de vielma y por verdad lo firme en dicho dia
mes y año.
Armando
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:
> Sorry if I missed previous exchanges on your question...but where is the
> document located (online films ?)that you're viewing and trying to
> "figure-out."
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
>
>
>
> Papagaia's Journey of Discovry
>
> www.patriciajcorbera.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: hernandezmol@msn.com
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:00:55 PM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
>
> The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca _____
> Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or perhaps it
> the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a capital M
> so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g or an I
> with a Z a? help!!
>
> Amalia Hernandez Arias
It is very rare in that era to have the AP and AM named in the baptisms.
From what I have seen it started around the beginning of the 19th century
for a little while then it became very common. The entry after the one in
question is from 20 agosto 62. The top of the next page says 1666. Therefore
the first entry is probably 20 agosto 1662.
Villalpando isn't as rare as you might thing.. It would come up quite often
on NR and also familysearch when I look for Villalobos. Like a very large
number of surnames this seems to be a topónimo coming from the town
Villalpando, Zamora, Castilla y León, España
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villalpando
I came to the conclusion that the this Juan de Villalpando and Ursula de
Olaes are the parents of the Juan Villalpando that married Maria Romero June
2, 1694 in Santa Fe, New Mexico posted the following sites:
http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.villalpando/151/mb.ashx
http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.weurope.spain.spain-regions.casti…
A tree for that family can be found at Geneanet
http://gw0.geneanet.org/bercier?b=bercier&lang=en&pz=susanne&nz=goulet&…
It is a y for "ya difuntos" and not a j.
I think I finally figured it out. Mariqa which is the same as Marica.
http://www.linajes.net/esq22.php?nombre=marica&submit=Buscar
There is an hacienda Mariquita near San Juan de los Lagos and Lagos de
Moreno.
Armando.
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:
> Armando, Amelia and Members,
>
> I think the first letter is as you said "M" I think what looks like Mas is
> not "s" but a "t" looks the same as in "ja da funtos"...My guess the name
> is Matiga...if that's even a surname...
>
> At first I thought the surname was Marques...but after looking at the
> Priest's signature, they didn't look the same to me.
>
> Pat Silva corbera
>
> Very intersting, especially the surname Villalpando...I've not seen that
> before.
> Have any children of Ursula and Juan been located, hoping that the AP and
> AM names are mentioned?
>
>
>
> Papagaia's Journey of Discovery
> patriciajcorbera.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pat Corbera"
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 1:29:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
>
> Thank you Armando for sharing this information with me. I'll get back to
> you and Amalia with my input once I view the document and film...
>
> Pat Silva Corbera
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Armando"
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:31:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
>
> The entry she is speaking about is at the top left of the following
>
> https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?cc=1860…
>
> I can't make out Francisca's last name either.
>
> (torn) ? Juo [Juan] de villalpando y franca [francisca] (torn)
> ? ya difuntos con ursula de olaes(torn)
> de martin de olaes y isabel cortes fueron (torn)
> drinos [padrinos] el alcalde nicolas de villalpando (torn)
> de vielma y por verdad lo firme en dicho dia
> mes y año.
>
> Armando
>
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Pat Corbera >wrote:
>
> > Sorry if I missed previous exchanges on your question...but where is the
> > document located (online films ?)that you're viewing and trying to
> > "figure-out."
> >
> > Pat Silva Corbera
> >
> >
> >
> > Papagaia's Journey of Discovry
> >
> > www.patriciajcorbera.com
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: hernandezmol@msn.com
> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:00:55 PM
> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> >
> > The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca _____
> > Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or perhaps
> it
> > the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a
> capital M
> > so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g or an
> I
> > with a Z a? help!!
> >
> > Amalia Hernandez Arias
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
This is to correct some errors on my previous post.
The AP and AM in the baptisms became common after the middle of the 19th
century. The first entry is probably before 20 agosto 1662.
Armando
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Armando wrote:
> It is very rare in that era to have the AP and AM named in the baptisms.
> From what I have seen it started around the beginning of the 19th century
> for a little while then it became very common. The entry after the one in
> question is from 20 agosto 62. The top of the next page says 1666. Therefore
> the first entry is probably 20 agosto 1662.
>
> Villalpando isn't as rare as you might thing.. It would come up quite often
> on NR and also familysearch when I look for Villalobos. Like a very large
> number of surnames this seems to be a topónimo coming from the town
> Villalpando, Zamora, Castilla y León, España
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villalpando
>
> I came to the conclusion that the this Juan de Villalpando and Ursula de
> Olaes are the parents of the Juan Villalpando that married Maria Romero June
> 2, 1694 in Santa Fe, New Mexico posted the following sites:
> http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.villalpando/151/mb.ashx
>
> http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.weurope.spain.spain-regions.casti…
>
>
> A tree for that family can be found at Geneanet
>
> http://gw0.geneanet.org/bercier?b=bercier&lang=en&pz=susanne&nz=goulet&…
>
> It is a y for "ya difuntos" and not a j.
>
> I think I finally figured it out. Mariqa which is the same as Marica.
> http://www.linajes.net/esq22.php?nombre=marica&submit=Buscar
>
> There is an hacienda Mariquita near San Juan de los Lagos and Lagos de
> Moreno.
>
> Armando.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:
>
>> Armando, Amelia and Members,
>>
>> I think the first letter is as you said "M" I think what looks like Mas is
>> not "s" but a "t" looks the same as in "ja da funtos"...My guess the name
>> is Matiga...if that's even a surname...
>>
>> At first I thought the surname was Marques...but after looking at the
>> Priest's signature, they didn't look the same to me.
>>
>> Pat Silva corbera
>>
>> Very intersting, especially the surname Villalpando...I've not seen that
>> before.
>> Have any children of Ursula and Juan been located, hoping that the AP and
>> AM names are mentioned?
>>
>>
>>
>> Papagaia's Journey of Discovery
>> patriciajcorbera.com
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Pat Corbera"
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 1:29:07 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
>>
>> Thank you Armando for sharing this information with me. I'll get back to
>> you and Amalia with my input once I view the document and film...
>>
>> Pat Silva Corbera
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Armando"
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:31:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
>>
>> The entry she is speaking about is at the top left of the following
>>
>> https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?cc=1860…
>>
>> I can't make out Francisca's last name either.
>>
>> (torn) ? Juo [Juan] de villalpando y franca [francisca] (torn)
>> ? ya difuntos con ursula de olaes(torn)
>> de martin de olaes y isabel cortes fueron (torn)
>> drinos [padrinos] el alcalde nicolas de villalpando (torn)
>> de vielma y por verdad lo firme en dicho dia
>> mes y año.
>>
>> Armando
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Pat Corbera > >wrote:
>>
>> > Sorry if I missed previous exchanges on your question...but where is the
>> > document located (online films ?)that you're viewing and trying to
>> > "figure-out."
>> >
>> > Pat Silva Corbera
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Papagaia's Journey of Discovry
>> >
>> > www.patriciajcorbera.com
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: hernandezmol@msn.com
>> > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:00:55 PM
>> > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
>> >
>> > The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca _____
>> > Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or
>> perhaps it
>> > the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a
>> capital M
>> > so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g or
>> an I
>> > with a Z a? help!!
>> >
>> > Amalia Hernandez Arias
>> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
I found some other records by the same Padre and I think the last name is Mancha. I found a Francisca De la Mancha that got a license to Nueva Epana with her parents in 1564.
Amalia Hernandez Arias
If you compare the names and words with an r such as padrinos, por, verdad,
and firme and the words with an n such as difuntos, con, padrinos (again),
and año you can see they are different and it look more like mariqa than it
does like mancha.
You can also use the very next entry of Mathias de Marmolejo and Lorenza de
la Cruz to compare the same letters.
Armando
On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 7:01 PM, wrote:
> I found some other records by the same Padre and I think the last name is
> Mancha. I found a Francisca De la Mancha that got a license to Nueva Epana
> with her parents in 1564.
> Amalia Hernandez Arias
Armando,
The tree you found in Geneanet is one that assumed that the Leon referred to in the Archives of New Mexico was the one in "Espana" but now we know it was Leon, Guanajuato, and it is in those archives that they got the parents of Juan who married that Romero.
Talking about haciendas, is there a Hacienda Bareza or Barreza in Guanajuato? I think that for Francisca, the "mareza" might not be her surname but the place where she originated from. They used to put those places in the records, such as "originaria de" etc.
Also, what is that word written in the margin? del--inta?
Emilie
> Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 16:55:50 -0500
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
>
> It is very rare in that era to have the AP and AM named in the baptisms.
> From what I have seen it started around the beginning of the 19th century
> for a little while then it became very common. The entry after the one in
> question is from 20 agosto 62. The top of the next page says 1666. Therefore
> the first entry is probably 20 agosto 1662.
>
> Villalpando isn't as rare as you might thing.. It would come up quite often
> on NR and also familysearch when I look for Villalobos. Like a very large
> number of surnames this seems to be a topónimo coming from the town
> Villalpando, Zamora, Castilla y León, España
> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villalpando
>
> I came to the conclusion that the this Juan de Villalpando and Ursula de
> Olaes are the parents of the Juan Villalpando that married Maria Romero June
> 2, 1694 in Santa Fe, New Mexico posted the following sites:
> http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.villalpando/151/mb.ashx
> http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.weurope.spain.spain-regions.casti…
>
>
> A tree for that family can be found at Geneanet
> http://gw0.geneanet.org/bercier?b=bercier&lang=en&pz=susanne&nz=goulet&…
>
> It is a y for "ya difuntos" and not a j.
>
> I think I finally figured it out. Mariqa which is the same as Marica.
> http://www.linajes.net/esq22.php?nombre=marica&submit=Buscar
>
> There is an hacienda Mariquita near San Juan de los Lagos and Lagos de
> Moreno.
>
> Armando.
>
> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Pat Corbera wrote:
>
> > Armando, Amelia and Members,
> >
> > I think the first letter is as you said "M" I think what looks like Mas is
> > not "s" but a "t" looks the same as in "ja da funtos"...My guess the name
> > is Matiga...if that's even a surname...
> >
> > At first I thought the surname was Marques...but after looking at the
> > Priest's signature, they didn't look the same to me.
> >
> > Pat Silva corbera
> >
> > Very intersting, especially the surname Villalpando...I've not seen that
> > before.
> > Have any children of Ursula and Juan been located, hoping that the AP and
> > AM names are mentioned?
> >
> >
> >
> > Papagaia's Journey of Discovery
> > patriciajcorbera.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Pat Corbera"
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 1:29:07 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> >
> > Thank you Armando for sharing this information with me. I'll get back to
> > you and Amalia with my input once I view the document and film...
> >
> > Pat Silva Corbera
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Armando"
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:31:45 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> >
> > The entry she is speaking about is at the top left of the following
> >
> > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?cc=1860…
> >
> > I can't make out Francisca's last name either.
> >
> > (torn) ? Juo [Juan] de villalpando y franca [francisca] (torn)
> > ? ya difuntos con ursula de olaes(torn)
> > de martin de olaes y isabel cortes fueron (torn)
> > drinos [padrinos] el alcalde nicolas de villalpando (torn)
> > de vielma y por verdad lo firme en dicho dia
> > mes y año.
> >
> > Armando
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Pat Corbera > >wrote:
> >
> > > Sorry if I missed previous exchanges on your question...but where is the
> > > document located (online films ?)that you're viewing and trying to
> > > "figure-out."
> > >
> > > Pat Silva Corbera
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Papagaia's Journey of Discovry
> > >
> > > www.patriciajcorbera.com
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: hernandezmol@msn.com
> > > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:00:55 PM
> > > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> > >
> > > The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca _____
> > > Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or perhaps
> > it
> > > the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a
> > capital M
> > > so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g or an
> > I
> > > with a Z a? help!!
> > >
> > > Amalia Hernandez Arias
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
Emilie,
Yes I know that was the same one you were referring to but I posted it so
people can where the info can be found. It isn't "mareza" it is Mariqa which
is the same as Marica.
http://www.linajes.net/esq22.php?nombre=Marica&submit=Buscar
It may very well be referring to a place. I can't find anyone with the
surname Mariqa or Marica in familysearch.
Armando
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Emilie Garcia wrote:
>
> Armando,
>
> The tree you found in Geneanet is one that assumed that the Leon referred
> to in the Archives of New Mexico was the one in "Espana" but now we know it
> was Leon, Guanajuato, and it is in those archives that they got the parents
> of Juan who married that Romero.
>
> Talking about haciendas, is there a Hacienda Bareza or Barreza in
> Guanajuato? I think that for Francisca, the "mareza" might not be her
> surname but the place where she originated from. They used to put those
> places in the records, such as "originaria de" etc.
>
> Also, what is that word written in the margin? del--inta?
>
> Emilie
>
>
> > Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 16:55:50 -0500
> > From: fandemma@gmail.com
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> >
> > It is very rare in that era to have the AP and AM named in the baptisms.
> > From what I have seen it started around the beginning of the 19th century
> > for a little while then it became very common. The entry after the one in
> > question is from 20 agosto 62. The top of the next page says 1666.
> Therefore
> > the first entry is probably 20 agosto 1662.
> >
> > Villalpando isn't as rare as you might thing.. It would come up quite
> often
> > on NR and also familysearch when I look for Villalobos. Like a very large
> > number of surnames this seems to be a topónimo coming from the town
> > Villalpando, Zamora, Castilla y León, España
> > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villalpando
> >
> > I came to the conclusion that the this Juan de Villalpando and Ursula de
> > Olaes are the parents of the Juan Villalpando that married Maria Romero
> June
> > 2, 1694 in Santa Fe, New Mexico posted the following sites:
> > http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.villalpando/151/mb.ashx
> >
> http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.weurope.spain.spain-regions.casti…
> >
> >
> > A tree for that family can be found at Geneanet
> >
> http://gw0.geneanet.org/bercier?b=bercier&lang=en&pz=susanne&nz=goulet&…
> >
> > It is a y for "ya difuntos" and not a j.
> >
> > I think I finally figured it out. Mariqa which is the same as Marica.
> > http://www.linajes.net/esq22.php?nombre=marica&submit=Buscar
> >
> > There is an hacienda Mariquita near San Juan de los Lagos and Lagos de
> > Moreno.
> >
> > Armando.
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Pat Corbera >wrote:
> >
> > > Armando, Amelia and Members,
> > >
> > > I think the first letter is as you said "M" I think what looks like Mas
> is
> > > not "s" but a "t" looks the same as in "ja da funtos"...My guess the
> name
> > > is Matiga...if that's even a surname...
> > >
> > > At first I thought the surname was Marques...but after looking at the
> > > Priest's signature, they didn't look the same to me.
> > >
> > > Pat Silva corbera
> > >
> > > Very intersting, especially the surname Villalpando...I've not seen
> that
> > > before.
> > > Have any children of Ursula and Juan been located, hoping that the AP
> and
> > > AM names are mentioned?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Papagaia's Journey of Discovery
> > > patriciajcorbera.com
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Pat Corbera"
> > > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > > Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 1:29:07 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> > >
> > > Thank you Armando for sharing this information with me. I'll get back
> to
> > > you and Amalia with my input once I view the document and film...
> > >
> > > Pat Silva Corbera
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Armando"
> > > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:31:45 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> > >
> > > The entry she is speaking about is at the top left of the following
> > >
> > >
> https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?cc=1860…
> > >
> > > I can't make out Francisca's last name either.
> > >
> > > (torn) ? Juo [Juan] de villalpando y franca [francisca] (torn)
> > > ? ya difuntos con ursula de olaes(torn)
> > > de martin de olaes y isabel cortes fueron (torn)
> > > drinos [padrinos] el alcalde nicolas de villalpando (torn)
> > > de vielma y por verdad lo firme en dicho dia
> > > mes y año.
> > >
> > > Armando
> > >
> > > On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Pat Corbera <
> PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry if I missed previous exchanges on your question...but where is
> the
> > > > document located (online films ?)that you're viewing and trying to
> > > > "figure-out."
> > > >
> > > > Pat Silva Corbera
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Papagaia's Journey of Discovry
> > > >
> > > > www.patriciajcorbera.com
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hernandezmol@msn.com
> > > > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:00:55 PM
> > > > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> > > >
> > > > The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca
> _____
> > > > Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or
> perhaps
> > > it
> > > > the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a
> > > capital M
> > > > so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g
> or an
> > > I
> > > > with a Z a? help!!
> > > >
> > > > Amalia Hernandez Arias
> > > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
Emilie,
What looks like word in the margin is actually from the previous page and it
is says Auto de Visita.
Armando
On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Emilie Garcia wrote:
>
> Armando,
>
> Also, what is that word written in the margin? del--inta?
>
> Emilie
>
>
> > Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 16:55:50 -0500
> > From: fandemma@gmail.com
> > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> >
> > It is very rare in that era to have the AP and AM named in the baptisms.
> > From what I have seen it started around the beginning of the 19th century
> > for a little while then it became very common. The entry after the one in
> > question is from 20 agosto 62. The top of the next page says 1666.
> Therefore
> > the first entry is probably 20 agosto 1662.
> >
> > Villalpando isn't as rare as you might thing.. It would come up quite
> often
> > on NR and also familysearch when I look for Villalobos. Like a very large
> > number of surnames this seems to be a topónimo coming from the town
> > Villalpando, Zamora, Castilla y León, España
> > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villalpando
> >
> > I came to the conclusion that the this Juan de Villalpando and Ursula de
> > Olaes are the parents of the Juan Villalpando that married Maria Romero
> June
> > 2, 1694 in Santa Fe, New Mexico posted the following sites:
> > http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.villalpando/151/mb.ashx
> >
> http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.weurope.spain.spain-regions.casti…
> >
> >
> > A tree for that family can be found at Geneanet
> >
> http://gw0.geneanet.org/bercier?b=bercier&lang=en&pz=susanne&nz=goulet&…
> >
> > It is a y for "ya difuntos" and not a j.
> >
> > I think I finally figured it out. Mariqa which is the same as Marica.
> > http://www.linajes.net/esq22.php?nombre=marica&submit=Buscar
> >
> > There is an hacienda Mariquita near San Juan de los Lagos and Lagos de
> > Moreno.
> >
> > Armando.
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Pat Corbera >wrote:
> >
> > > Armando, Amelia and Members,
> > >
> > > I think the first letter is as you said "M" I think what looks like Mas
> is
> > > not "s" but a "t" looks the same as in "ja da funtos"...My guess the
> name
> > > is Matiga...if that's even a surname...
> > >
> > > At first I thought the surname was Marques...but after looking at the
> > > Priest's signature, they didn't look the same to me.
> > >
> > > Pat Silva corbera
> > >
> > > Very intersting, especially the surname Villalpando...I've not seen
> that
> > > before.
> > > Have any children of Ursula and Juan been located, hoping that the AP
> and
> > > AM names are mentioned?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Papagaia's Journey of Discovery
> > > patriciajcorbera.com
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Pat Corbera"
> > > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > > Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 1:29:07 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> > >
> > > Thank you Armando for sharing this information with me. I'll get back
> to
> > > you and Amalia with my input once I view the document and film...
> > >
> > > Pat Silva Corbera
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Armando"
> > > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:31:45 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> > >
> > > The entry she is speaking about is at the top left of the following
> > >
> > >
> https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?cc=1860…
> > >
> > > I can't make out Francisca's last name either.
> > >
> > > (torn) ? Juo [Juan] de villalpando y franca [francisca] (torn)
> > > ? ya difuntos con ursula de olaes(torn)
> > > de martin de olaes y isabel cortes fueron (torn)
> > > drinos [padrinos] el alcalde nicolas de villalpando (torn)
> > > de vielma y por verdad lo firme en dicho dia
> > > mes y año.
> > >
> > > Armando
> > >
> > > On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Pat Corbera <
> PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sorry if I missed previous exchanges on your question...but where is
> the
> > > > document located (online films ?)that you're viewing and trying to
> > > > "figure-out."
> > > >
> > > > Pat Silva Corbera
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Papagaia's Journey of Discovry
> > > >
> > > > www.patriciajcorbera.com
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: hernandezmol@msn.com
> > > > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:00:55 PM
> > > > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> > > >
> > > > The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca
> _____
> > > > Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or
> perhaps
> > > it
> > > > the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a
> > > capital M
> > > > so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g
> or an
> > > I
> > > > with a Z a? help!!
> > > >
> > > > Amalia Hernandez Arias
> > > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
Yes, I realized after my last post that the Juan Villalpando record is torn around the edges so I highlighted what was in the torn areas so separate that from what was written in the pages under that one.
Also, when I was looking in the Guanajuato records for San Felipe and Leon of the time, I ran across some surnames that look like the one that might be Francisca's: Marega, Moriga, Maruga, Mariga, etc but none turned out to be a Francisca. I had never heard of such a surname.
Emilie
> Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 18:09:42 -0500
> From: fandemma@gmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
>
> Emilie,
>
> What looks like word in the margin is actually from the previous page and it
> is says Auto de Visita.
>
> Armando
>
> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Emilie Garcia wrote:
>
> >
> > Armando,
> >
> > Also, what is that word written in the margin? del--inta?
> >
> > Emilie
> >
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 16:55:50 -0500
> > > From: fandemma@gmail.com
> > > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> > >
> > > It is very rare in that era to have the AP and AM named in the baptisms.
> > > From what I have seen it started around the beginning of the 19th century
> > > for a little while then it became very common. The entry after the one in
> > > question is from 20 agosto 62. The top of the next page says 1666.
> > Therefore
> > > the first entry is probably 20 agosto 1662.
> > >
> > > Villalpando isn't as rare as you might thing.. It would come up quite
> > often
> > > on NR and also familysearch when I look for Villalobos. Like a very large
> > > number of surnames this seems to be a topónimo coming from the town
> > > Villalpando, Zamora, Castilla y León, España
> > > http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villalpando
> > >
> > > I came to the conclusion that the this Juan de Villalpando and Ursula de
> > > Olaes are the parents of the Juan Villalpando that married Maria Romero
> > June
> > > 2, 1694 in Santa Fe, New Mexico posted the following sites:
> > > http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.villalpando/151/mb.ashx
> > >
> > http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.weurope.spain.spain-regions.casti…
> > >
> > >
> > > A tree for that family can be found at Geneanet
> > >
> > http://gw0.geneanet.org/bercier?b=bercier&lang=en&pz=susanne&nz=goulet&…
> > >
> > > It is a y for "ya difuntos" and not a j.
> > >
> > > I think I finally figured it out. Mariqa which is the same as Marica.
> > > http://www.linajes.net/esq22.php?nombre=marica&submit=Buscar
> > >
> > > There is an hacienda Mariquita near San Juan de los Lagos and Lagos de
> > > Moreno.
> > >
> > > Armando.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Pat Corbera > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Armando, Amelia and Members,
> > > >
> > > > I think the first letter is as you said "M" I think what looks like Mas
> > is
> > > > not "s" but a "t" looks the same as in "ja da funtos"...My guess the
> > name
> > > > is Matiga...if that's even a surname...
> > > >
> > > > At first I thought the surname was Marques...but after looking at the
> > > > Priest's signature, they didn't look the same to me.
> > > >
> > > > Pat Silva corbera
> > > >
> > > > Very intersting, especially the surname Villalpando...I've not seen
> > that
> > > > before.
> > > > Have any children of Ursula and Juan been located, hoping that the AP
> > and
> > > > AM names are mentioned?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Papagaia's Journey of Discovery
> > > > patriciajcorbera.com
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Pat Corbera"
> > > > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > > > Sent: Friday, September 9, 2011 1:29:07 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> > > >
> > > > Thank you Armando for sharing this information with me. I'll get back
> > to
> > > > you and Amalia with my input once I view the document and film...
> > > >
> > > > Pat Silva Corbera
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Armando"
> > > > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> > > > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:31:45 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> > > >
> > > > The entry she is speaking about is at the top left of the following
> > > >
> > > >
> > https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?cc=1860…
> > > >
> > > > I can't make out Francisca's last name either.
> > > >
> > > > (torn) ? Juo [Juan] de villalpando y franca [francisca] (torn)
> > > > ? ya difuntos con ursula de olaes(torn)
> > > > de martin de olaes y isabel cortes fueron (torn)
> > > > drinos [padrinos] el alcalde nicolas de villalpando (torn)
> > > > de vielma y por verdad lo firme en dicho dia
> > > > mes y año.
> > > >
> > > > Armando
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 6:08 PM, Pat Corbera <
> > PatriciaCorbera@comcast.net
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Sorry if I missed previous exchanges on your question...but where is
> > the
> > > > > document located (online films ?)that you're viewing and trying to
> > > > > "figure-out."
> > > > >
> > > > > Pat Silva Corbera
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Papagaia's Journey of Discovry
> > > > >
> > > > > www.patriciajcorbera.com
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: hernandezmol@msn.com
> > > > > To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 3:00:55 PM
> > > > > Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Francisca ??
> > > > >
> > > > > The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca
> > _____
> > > > > Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or
> > perhaps
> > > > it
> > > > > the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a
> > > > capital M
> > > > > so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g
> > or an
> > > > I
> > > > > with a Z a? help!!
> > > > >
> > > > > Amalia Hernandez Arias
> > > > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > > >
> > > > To post, send email to:
> > > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > > >
> > > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > > >
> > > > To post, send email to:
> > > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > > >
> > > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> > > >
> > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> > >
> > > To post, send email to:
> > > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> > >
> > > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >
I do know that the earliest I have seen mentioning grandparents occurred around 1770 in the Mexico City records. By 1770 the church began mentioning grandparent's names. This really helped me reconstruct the mexican "nobility" and their families trees. Some marriage records of Guadalajara actually contain grandparent's names, eventhough they were not baptismal records. You'll find many surprises within genealogy.
Daniel Méndez Camino
I finally found a handwriting letter match. Juan de Villalpando's mothers name was definitely Francisca de la Marcha see the following
original
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?cc=1860831&…
sample 2nd baptismal of Luis (left hand side) look at the word dicho dia, the ch is exactly like the ch in Marcha.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1940-881121-1-39?cc=1860831&wc…
I knew I researched that last name for a reason...thanks all!!!
Amalia Hernandez-Arias
Amalia,
That's a great find. Friar Jospeh Marquez also wrote dicho dia mes y año in
the same unconventional way for the marriage of Juan de Villalpando but
since he didn't do it for the one following the marriage of Juan de
Villalpando I had felt it is best to assume it was an accident until it
could be shown he had repeated the same writing style. Since his writing
style is somewhat inconsistent he could have wrote r instead of n in the
case of the surname of Francisca making it de la Mancha as you had once
suspected. It is unfortunate there hasn't been any other records found that
mention Juan de Villalpando and Francisca de la Mancha or Marcha. It is hard
to even find the surname de la Mancha in Guanajuato in the online search.
Manchola shows up a lot but not Mancha. Finding Francisca as a godmother in
a baptism or death record could be helpful. As far Rocha, even though the
letter m written by Friar Joseph Marquez isn't consistent I never see where
an r looks like an m.
Armando
On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 2:40 AM, wrote:
> I finally found a handwriting letter match. Juan de Villalpando's mothers
> name was definitely Francisca de la Marcha see the following
> original
> https://familysearch.org/pal:/**MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?**
> cc=1860831&wc=11690523
> sample 2nd baptismal of Luis (left hand side) look at the word dicho dia,
> the ch is exactly like the ch in Marcha. https://familysearch.org/pal:/**
> MM9.3.1/TH-1940-881121-1-39?**cc=1860831&wc=11689878
>
> I knew I researched that last name for a reason...thanks all!!!
>
> Amalia Hernandez-Arias
Yes Armando that is the only records i have found are Juan and Francisca de la Rocha im just wondering how he was real off on everything else if he might have just mis wrote it...but im still looking ...i started going backwards now. locating the first Villalpandos that came to Nueva Espana and tracing them up. I think I might have found a record in Guanajuato of an Alonso de Villalpando(1610 natural de Medina del Campo, which i located a Alonso in the PARES records coming to Nueva Espana in 1560) his son Simon (Arias) got married but he took the name Arias of his mother Faustina Arias de Bedoya(Bedoya vecinos de Camora figured out it was Zamora, Michoacan), , its just a task to link him to Juan im missing a span of about 50 years, but all the docs show Alonso in Leon (casa de Alonso de Villalpando), I read that back in them times they tend to take the last name of the more prestigeous parent. which Arias de Bedoya was quite up there in status.
Amalia Hernandez Arias
Dear Amalia,
I find this post very interesting! My father descends from the Arias de Vedoya family of the Obispado de Michoacan, about three times to be exact. I have the oldes member who I believe to be the patriarch Juan Gomez-Arias de Vedoya who was the Alcalde Mayor of Zamora was likely born ca. 1550 possibly Spain and married Ana de Cardenas. It would be interesting to know how this Faustina Arias de Vedoya is related, very likely his daughter due to the time frame and location. The Arias de Vedoya are known to have settled in Zamora, one of the founders. They quickly married into families suchas Mendez de Torres (my family), Ochoa-Garibay, Martin Barragan, Torres Guerrero.
Do you have anymore info on Faustina Arias de Vedoya, Alonso de Villalpando or Simon Arias? There is a probability the Villalpando of Leon are related to those of Zamora. The Obispado de Michoacan functioned similarily as the Nueva Galicia. People often traveled around and settled, and married creating this very small gene pool of Spaniards. If you take Los Altos de Jalisco, it only took about 100 years (1600-1700) for most families be intertwined by blood and through marriage for most. Also, when any "new" families especially peninsulares arrived they quickly married for the most part and joined this little aristocracy of Spanish families. You can see this happen by the marriages of children of peninsular born men and woman who arrived in Los Altos, families such as Fernandez de San Salvador, Azuela de San Pelayo, etc.
Daniel Mendez Camino
Daniel. I only have that marriage record I came across in Guanajuato, also I found a marriage document for a daughter of Simon Arias and Maria Suarez after that my trail goes cold. Other than all the records I extracted from Zamora of the Arias de Bedoya and Gomez de Bedoya I have no other leads. I found a exerpt in a book though about Gomez de Bedoya and im confused....it states that in 1561 Francisco Gomez Arias de Bedoya had land and he gave some of it to his parents which were Arias de Bedoya and Maria Avina, did they not know the fathers first name or was Arias it?? I want to see who the parents of (Faustina)Arias de Bedoya are. I also found several early records in Zamora for a Beatris Arias de Bedoya and a Pedro. But nothing that tells me who their parents are.
Alonso de Villalpando seems to me had numerous children but the late 1500's records are scarce. I did find an article that is about Penjamo (Irapuato now) that Alonso was a vecino de La Calera for 55 years, it was a testimony he gave in 1658. So I know it has to be the same Alonso that came from Medina del Campo. I would say the same that all the Villalpandos in Guanajato decended from the same clan.
Amalia Hernandez Arias
Amalia,
I just realized that you might be able to find out more about all the people
involved in this marriage in the Información matrimonial 1637-1734. They are
done before a marriage to ensure both parties are complying with the rules
of marriage and are more detailed than the marriage entries and since some
info is repeated what can't be read in one entry can be in another. First
there is a declaration of the groom then a declaration of the bride then
three different witnesses stating there is nothing to their knowledge to
prevent the marriage. Here is a link to that volume
https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20581-6217-43?cc=1860…
You should also search the Defunciones 1695-1773
https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20581-6217-43?cc=1860…
If you or anyone else finds anything on the families Moreno de Ortega,
Galván de Rojas, or Villalobos or any family that has ties to la Villa de
Santa María de los Lagos please let me know.
Armando
On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 5:00 PM, wrote:
> The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca _____
> Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or perhaps it
> the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a capital M
> so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g or an I
> with a Z a? help!!
> Amalia Hernandez Arias
Scratch my previous post. I forgot your entry was from León and the ones I
mentioned are from San Felipe.
Armando
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Armando wrote:
> Amalia,
>
> I just realized that you might be able to find out more about all the
> people involved in this marriage in the Información matrimonial 1637-1734.
> They are done before a marriage to ensure both parties are complying with
> the rules of marriage and are more detailed than the marriage entries and
> since some info is repeated what can't be read in one entry can be in
> another. First there is a declaration of the groom then a declaration of the
> bride then three different witnesses stating there is nothing to their
> knowledge to prevent the marriage. Here is a link to that volume
> https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20581-6217-43?cc=1860…
>
> You should also search the Defunciones 1695-1773
> https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20581-6217-43?cc=1860…
>
> If you or anyone else finds anything on the families Moreno de Ortega,
> Galván de Rojas, or Villalobos or any family that has ties to la Villa de
> Santa María de los Lagos please let me know.
>
> Armando
>
> On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 5:00 PM, wrote:
>
>> The mother of Juan is driving me crazy...it looks like Francisca _____
>> Mariza. Anyone heard of any spanish names similar to this one or perhaps it
>> the ending to what was torn off on the edge...but it starts with a capital M
>> so im assuming thats her complete last name..Mar or Mas is that a g or an I
>> with a Z a? help!!
>> Amalia Hernandez Arias
Nancy Blanche Perez
Viuda means widow, also abbreviated as vd.
Sorry guys...these are also from Leon, Guanajuato, Iglesia Sagrario matrimonios, around 1662 and 1674. Trying to see If i can find something where they migrated to Jerez..
Thank you again
Amalia Hernandez Arias
Amalia
Could you give a full reference, including image number?
Thank you.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
Its Leon Guanajuato Sagrario 1672. Page 9 on familysearch.org Matrimonios..
Amalia Hernandez Arias
The address of the website, URL, of each document at FamilySearch can be
copied and pasted into the the messages. Each page has it's own specific
address. It's makes it much easier for those that want to help.
Armando
On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 6:57 PM, wrote:
> Its Leon Guanajuato Sagrario 1672. Page 9 on familysearch.orgMatrimonios..
> Amalia Hernandez Arias
>
Ohh yeah.. gotcha.. that was right under my nose.. thank you!! This is the important one..
https://www.familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1951-20123-20733-8?cc=1860…
Amalia Hernandez Arias
Amalia
Thank you!
One of the advantages of having the full citation is that a larger image can be saved. From the Family Search page, the image is about 2.4M, which is considerably larger than the one you had posted. This image can then be made much larger, and easier to read.
The software I use for viewing/printing images is Picassa 3. This software is free from the Picassa website.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
Amalia
I looked at the record on image 9; it seems to be an incomplete record, or perhaps not a standard marriage record. True, there are some missing parts of the page, but if it were a complete record, there should be something in the margin that I think would have been larger than the missing piece.
The record at the bottom of image 8 seems to be related. I noticed that some of the other records read "case y vele", but this one reads only "case."
Perhaps the image 9 record is actually the "vele" portion of the marriage. However, this word does not seem to be in the fragment of the page.
My interest in the Villalpando family is that my wife descends from Tomas (II) de Villalpando and Maria de Jaen who were married in Aguascalientes. This Tomas (II) is the son of Tomas (I) from Leon.
Tomas (I) is also the father of Marcos de Villalpando who married Maria Lopez in Leon, in 1680.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
Saludos para todos.
Busco informaciòn sobre el Matrimonio de Fco Alexo De La Paz con Ana De Mendoza
o cualquier informaciòn sobre Alexo o Ana De Mendoza Aproximadamente en 1700.
El ùltimo documento encontrado es el Acta de Matrimonio de Alejo De La Paz y Casilda Gutièrrez Hijo de Fco Alexo y Ana De Mendoza
en Ayotlàn Año de 1731.
Gracias Roberto De La Paz.
Roberto,
Encontre a un Francisco Alexo Pax con Ana de Mendoza y tienen por lo menos
un hijo Francisco Pax Mendoza nacido 23 de Marzo 1714 en San Agustin Ayo El
Chico, Jalisco [batch #C602837 (1682-1717) serial # 03443 film #0280668].
Que pienzas?
Esther Jordan Lopez
2011/10/9 Roberto de la Paz Loza
>
> Saludos para todos.
> Busco informaciòn sobre el Matrimonio de Fco Alexo De La Paz con Ana De
> Mendoza
> o cualquier informaciòn sobre Alexo o Ana De Mendoza Aproximadamente en
> 1700.
> El ùltimo documento encontrado es el Acta de Matrimonio de Alejo De La Paz
> y Casilda Gutièrrez Hijo de Fco Alexo y Ana De Mendoza
> en Ayotlàn Año de 1731.
>
> Gracias Roberto De La Paz.
Estoy atorado en la busqueda de mis ancestros y busco la ayuda de ustedes primos para encontrar ano y lugar de ascendencia de juan jose padilla esposo de juana eligia gonsalez ruvio, padres de jose maria padilla nacido el 20 nov de 1789 en arandas jalisco casado con barbara de los dolores en santa maria de arandas el10 de mayo de 1808. gracias de antemano
For years, I have been trying to find a link between my Luis Herrera and the above referenced couple.
Nicolaza Paula San Martín's brother Casimiro is my direct ancestor. Can you rephrase your question. I did not understand what you were asking. In the meantime, I will look over the information I have and try to summarize it.
Kind Regards, O. Estrada
Nicolaza Paula San Martín's brother Casimiro is my direct ancestor. Can you rephrase your question. I did not understand what you were asking. In the meantime, I will look over the information I have and try to summarize it.
Kind Regards, O. Estrada
Hola a todos:
Les comparto una inquietud sobre el origen del apellido Gabay o Gabadi.
JacInto Ruiz de Esparza married Juana de Elizalde in Aguascalientes, Nueva Galicia, New Spain (Mexico), daughter of Juan de Luevana y Maria Lopez de Elizalde y Becerra
Maria Lopez de Elizalde is the daughter of Juan Lopez De Elizalde y Aberruza and Leonor Becerra y Sanchez de Mendoza.
Maria Lopez de Elizalde has a second marriage to Martin Ruiz de Esparza y Gabai
Juan Lopez De Elizalde y Aberruza is the son of Miguel Lopez De Elizalde y Leonor de Aberruza
Most genealogists have in their records a slightly different family tree. They mistakenly have Juana Lopez de Elizalde as a daughter to her grandparents.
Genealogists also keep repeating that The Lopez de Elizalde family is from Tolosa, Gipuzkoa, Basque Country, Spain when the Elizalde were already joined at the hip in Pamplona and Esparza.
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Hola Ricardo:
En realidad estoy comenzando con el estudio de estas familias de Nueva Galicia. Esto es debido a que la bisabuela Juana Cuéllar Murguía no dejó muchos datos, únicamente que nació en 1876 en Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco. Ninguno supo siquiera el nombre de sus padres, ni tuvimos documentos o retratos, un misterio.
Me he concentrado en el estudio de la familia Ramírez y Bravo de Lagunas. Esto me ha llevado a estudiar el contingente de conquistadores de Pánfilo de Narváez y de Nuño Beltrán de Guzmán, varias familias establecidas en Querétaro pasaron a Nueva Galicia en el siglo XVI y un siglo más tarde varias familias pasaron de Nueva Galicia a Querétaro.
Podríamos avanzar más en cuanto reactivaran la Guía General del Archivo General de la Nación.
Hola Carlos:
Sobre la posibilidad de antecedentes conversos, tengo entendido que el apellido Jaso tiene dos orígenes, el vasco de Yasu y por otro lado para designar a los jázaros (Khazars) otro tanto sucedería con los apellidos Casa, de las Casas, Cházaro, pero la única forma de saber el origen de cada familia es por el ADN.
He encontrado que muchos apellidos tienes dos o tres orígenes.
Saludos
Marcelina
I hope some of you are still monitoring this thread.
I am researching Alejos Lopes de Elizalde. The only record I have is the secondary summary of the marriage of his daughter. The daughter was Maria Lopes de Elizalde. Her mother was Josepha De La Paz.
The daughter, Maria Lopes de Elizalde, married Joseph Morales on May 24, 1707. They had six children.
I am researching the parents of Alejos Lopes de Elizalde. Is he related to Juan Lopez De Elizalde y Aberruza and Leonor Becerra y Sanchez de Mendoza.
Thank you for any advice/ideas!
Anita
Anita,
You'll find more sources on Alejo in this Wikitree profile:
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/L%C3%B3pez-4159
Good luck!
Hola Marcelina,
Hace tiempo que estoy esperando tu colaboración sober los Ruiz de Esparza y los Gabai Navarro. Es cierto lo que dices que lo Gabai antes era Gabadi.
Junto con los Huici, los Esparza de Ruiz tenian negocio de armas. Como Martin Ruiz de Esparza y Huici era de las dos familias, creo que el junto los negocios de las dos familias. Su prima, Guillermina, era abuela de de Santo Francisco Xavier. Guillermina escribio que su primo, Martin, era Bueno para manejar los negocios de la familia. Todavia no estoy seguro si los junto. Los Ruiz de Esparza demandaron a mucha gente que trataban meterse a este negocio. Hasta demanderon primos.
Hola Carlos,
Todo lo que escribiste en tu comentario es cierto. Yo he podido juntar muchas de las familias. Y como dices, parte de casi todas estas familias tenian un rama conversa en comun.
Rick (Ricardo) A. Ricci
Buenas tardes estimados amigos.
Creo que definitivamente Martín "el Navarro" procedía de la población de Gabadi, independientemente de si el nombre de esa población tiene raíces hebreas.
Me parece que cada vez es más claro que a la Nueva Galicia llegó un grupo Vasco muy íntimamente relacionado desde antes de cruzar el océano.
Estoy formando la hipótesis de que la suegra de Martín de Gabadi fue Ana de Arriaga y que por esa razón pusieron el nombre de Ana Francisca a su hija.
Hay que notar que la hermana de Ana Francisca se casa con otro Vasco de la misma región de Pamplona: Pedro Fernández de Vaulus y Ciordia.
Otro miembro de ese Clan vasco en Nueva Galicia lo fueron Juan de Jaso "El Viejo" y su sobrino Juan de Jaso "El Mozo"sobrinos ambos de Guillerma de Atondo y Ruíz de Esparza
La familia Gabay si existe en Navarra en 1300-1600. Esta familia es judía, con algunas ramas que mas tarde se convierten y luego los nombran conversos.
I discoverered an article written by an historian that describes where the name "Gabay" came from.
According to historian Lydia Becker "the administrator called 'Gabay' was responsible for the finances of the community."
Rick A. Ricci
Hola Ricardo:
Pues he leído sobre varios judíos que eran los que recaudaban los impuestos y administraban la Hacienda de aquellos señores que no estaban capacitados para manejar las finanzas de sus feudos o reinos.
Hay un sumario sobre estos financieros en la página 105 del artículo La Sociedad y la Economía de los judíos en Castilla y la Corona de Argón durante la baja Edad Media., de José Hinojosa Montalvo. En las páginas 86 y 105 se menciona a los Cavallería.
https://dialnet.unirioja.es/descarga/articulos/554225.pdf
Saludos
Marcelina
Hola Marcelina,
Yo desciendo de Los Cavalleria.
Gracias,
Ricardo
Mr. Ricci
I'd like to second your comment from 2017, above.
In current use, the term "gabbai" is a Hebrew term used currently for those to assist in the Torah service, e.g. monitor the reading from the Torah in Hebrew, and assist congregants with the blessings and customs when the congregant is "called" to the Torah, considered an honor.
Here's a link to Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabbai The Wikipedia definition is broader than the present usage.
Best
Anita
I have found some sources that give some genealogy on Diego Temiño de Velasco’s wife Francisca de Alcocer.
Francisca de Alcocer and Diego Temiño de Velasco are ancestors of retired Raider Quarterback Jim Plunkett. I grew up a big fan of his. Cool to know we are distant cousins. This is the second Raider in my family tree. I am repeatedly related to retired Raider Coach Tom Flores.
Rick A. Ricci
A reserva de precisar en su oportunidad la información de la que dispongo, Francisca de Alcocer fue mujer del llamado "Alcaide Temiño", y, entre otros hijos tuvieron a Ana y Baltazar.
Ana casó con el conquistador Pedro Pacho con quien tuvo a tres hijas que casaron con Diego Flores de la Torre, Diego de Padilla Dávila y el Mayorazgo Porres Baranda. Tengo localizados en el Sagrario de México los bautizos de esas tres hijas: Angela, Mariana y Bernardina.
Ana casó en segundas nupcias en Guadalajara con Francisco de Figueroa, quien se convirtió en el tutor de las hijas de ella con Pedro Pacho; también tengo localizado el documento de "tutela" que lo comprueba.
Por esa razón, el Chantre Diego Flores de la Torre, erroneamente titula a su Memorial como "Descendencia de los Figueroa, Flores de la Torre, Padilla Dávila y Porres Baranda", y lo hace de esa manera, pues ignoró que las hijas de Ana se apellidaron Pacho. Me refiero al manuscrito Bancroft, del cual hice paleografía y transcripción hace veinte años y lo publicó, sin que se relacione con el tema, el historiador Rodolfo Fernández en un libro sobre Haciendas de Cocula, publicado por el INAH; insisto, sin que el contenido del mencionado manuscrito tuviera que ver en lo absoluto con el tema del libro de Fernández. Cuando por primera vez le toqué a Fernández el tema de este manuscrito, fue con la finalidad de editarlo por separado y poner notas para identificar a cada personaje mencionado y, para empezar, decir que las tres hijas de Ana no se apellidaban Figueroa sino Pacho, como lo aclaró en su momento el eminente genealogista Francisco Javier de Castaños y Cañedo. Sin embargo, ahora disponemos de su contenido como un apéndice en la dicha obra de Rodolfo Fernández sobre "Haciendas de Cocula".
Retomando el tema de Francisca de Alcocer, existe su pase a Indias y se menciona como esposa del alcalde Temiño y proporciona los nombres de sus hijos, quienes iban con destino al Darién. Pero es posible que la noticia de la muerte de su marido en las Antillas, la obligara a venir y residir en la Ciudad de México. Un curioso documento del Ramo Inquisción del AGN, comprueba su residencia en la capital hacia 1540.
En ese documento, Francisca declara ser natural de Salas de Bureba, en los Reinos de Castilla e hija del Jurado Hernando de Bañuelos e Isabel de Alcocer y ser viuda de Diego Temiño de Velasco, a quien tengo localizado en Salas de Bureba, en la Provincia de Sevilla y en las Antillas, de donde llegó huyendo por diversos conflictos ocasionados por sus gestiones en España.
Salas de Bureba es una pequeña población situada en la Provincia de Burgos, Cstilla y León, al este del Valle de las Caderechas, entre Castellanos y Poza, muy cerca del lugar de Treviño, que correspondía al título de Conde de Treviño que poseyó la familia de Velasco, entonces Condestables de Castilla.
Baltazar Temiño de Bañuelos, uno de los cuatro fundadores de Zacatecas, no fue "General" que se haya comprobado hasta ahora por algún documento. Su hijo fue Ruíz Temiño, y Castaños y yo, siempre nos preguntábamos de donde había salido el apellido Ruíz.
Conozco y respeto mucho a Leonardo de la Torre Berúmen, gran persona, notable genealogista y estudioso en temas históricos del Estado de Zacatecas. ¿Berúmen publicó la fuente documental de donde sacó que Francisca de Alcocer era nieta de Juan Ruíz Temiño? Se lo voy a preguntar.
En el AGI de Sevilla existe un documento que vincula a Juan Ruíz Temiño con Don Sancho de Velasco, Condestable de Castilla, abuelo de Bernardina de Velazco, Duquesa de Frías, con quien tuvo pleitos el famoso alcalde Diego Temiño, por causa del mal manejo que, como alcalde de un pueblo en la Provincia de Sevilla, le encomendó dicha señora. Curiosamente, una nieta de Diego, hija de Pedro Pacho y Ana de Bañuelos, fue bautizada en México como Bernardina. ¿Casualidad? Yo creo que eran parientes.
Todo esto está relacionándose muy bien y creo que vamos por buen camino para aclarar varios puntos que aun quedan pendientes, en lo relativo a esta genealogía.
Uno de ellos: ¿De quien fue hijo el Alcalde Diego Temiño de Velasco?
La aportación que usted hace con la mención de estas familias en el libro de Juan Gil acerca de "Los Conversos y la Inquisción sevillana" en su tomo V, que no conozco, me parece interesantísima y una aportación muy atinada y digna de sumarse a lo que hemos venido trabajando entre varias personas interesadas en el tema. Lo de Blanca Núñez, hija de Pedro de Toledo y Beatríz Fernández (San Bartolomé) lo desconocía totalmente
¡Felicidades por este hallazgo!
Eso es todo lo que puedo comentar por el momento.
Saludos y gracias
Guillermo Tovar de Teresa
Muchas gracias por toda esa información. Es una buena adición a mi investigación.
En cuanto a la familia Alcocer me he encontrado otra cosa que me gustaría compartir.
Según Juan Gil en este mismo libro que he referenciado, Los conversos y la Inquisición sevillana, Volumen 5, el padre de Francisca de Alcocer Bañuelos, el Jurado Diego de Alcocer, era el hermano del doctor Pedro González de Alcocer, canónigo de la Iglesia Catedral de Sevilla.
Juan de la Barreda y Acedo-Rico escribe en su libro Viejas Familias de Alcalá de Henares (p. 208) que el padre del doctor Pedro González de Alcocer fue Fernán Díaz de Alcocer. Por supuesto, esto significa que Fernán Díaz de Alcocer tambien era el padre de El Jurado Diego de Alcocer. Hay más ascendencia que procede de Fernán Díaz de Alcocer en este libro.
La información que arroja esta en duda sería una de las siguientes:
Laura Balletto cita lo que parece ser una última voluntad y testamento en Studi in onore di Pistarino Geo (p. 390-391) que Bernardo de Grimaldo “le hizo donación [a su hijo] en 1510 de una huerta a la Macarena, camino de Sant Lazaro, antaño propiedad del doctor Pero González de Alcocer, que había comprado al jurado Diego de Alcocer, su hijo;”
Esto parece sugerir que este mismo Jurado Diego de Alcocer era el hijo de el doctor Pedro González de Alcocer. ¿Tal vez había dos Jurado Diego de Alcocers?
De todos modos, hermano o hijo, parece que Fernán Díaz de Alcocer sera el padre o abuelo del padre de Francisca de Alcocer Bañuelos, el Jurado Diego de Alcocer.
En Ingles
Thank you for all of that information. It is a nice addition to my research.
Regarding the Alcocer family I have come across something else which I’d like to share.
According to Juan Gil in this same book I’ve referenced, Los conversos y la Inquisición sevillana, Volume 5, Francisca Alcocer de Bañuelos’ father el jurado Diego de Alcocer was the brother of el doctor Pedro González de Alcocer, canónigo de la Iglesia Catedral de Sevilla.
Juan de la Barreda y Acedo-Rico writes in his book Viejas familias de Alcalá de Henares (p. 208) that the father of el doctor Pedro González de Alcocer is Fernán Díaz de Alcocer. This would of course mean that Fernán Díaz de Alcocer was the father of el jurado Diego de Alcocer. There is additional ancestry beyond this.
The information which throws this into question would be from the following:
Laura Balletto cites what seems to be a Last Will and Testament in Studi in onore di Geo Pistarino (p. 390-391) that Bernardo de Grimaldo “le hizo donación [a su hijo] en 1510 de una huerta a la Macarena, camino de Sant Lazaro, antaño propiedad del doctor Pero González de Alcocer, que había comprado al jurado Diego de Alcocer, su hijo;”
This seems to suggest that this same jurado Diego de Alcocer was the son of el doctor Pedro González de Alcocer. Maybe there were two jurado Diego de Alcocers?
Regardless, brother or son, it would seem that Fernán Díaz de Alcocer was either the father or grandfather of Francisca Alcocer de Bañuelos’ father el jurado Diego de Alcocer.
Robert Zermeno
Perdon - el jurado Diego de Alcocer fue el abuelo de Francisco de Alcocer Banuelos.
Robert Zermeno
Disculpa otra vez. No puedo escribir bien ahora - Francica de Alcocer Banuelos.
Robert Zermeno
Le pregunte a Leonardo de la Torre Berúmen acerca de la ascendencia de Francisca de Alcocer y me respondió que la obtuvo del sabio padre Salvador Treviño. Esos datos ya los tenía. Sería formidable invitar aLeonardo a ser miembro de "Nuestros Ranchos".
Lo que me parece muy importante para nuestra investigación es comprobar que el Alcalde Diego Temiño de Velasco y Francisca de Alcocer eran primos.
Los nuevos datos aportadoos ahora, acerca de la ascendencia Bañuelos, son muy interesantes.
Un dato: el testamento de Francisca de Velasco, hermana de Ana y Baltazar, se encuentra en AIPEJ en Guadalajara, fechado en esa ciudad en 5 de agosto de 1589, ante el escribano Rodrigo Fernández Cordero, II, fs. 278-281 vta. Dice ser hija legítima de Diego Temyño de Velasco y Francisca de Alcocer, ya difuntos, vecinos que fueron de Sevilla; declara haber sido mujer legítima de Francisco Cornejo y madre de Isabel de Temyño, Gerónima de Velasco (esposa de Hernando Espino de Figueroa), el clérigo Francisco Cornejo y Diego Cornejo. Al final dice, "nombro por mi albacea a Baltazar Temyño mi hermano, vecino de la ciudad de Nuestra Señora de los Zacatecas". Los testigos son de dicho instrumento son: su yerno Espino, los Cepeda de Colima, y Diego de Porres Baranda (casado con su sobrina Bernardina).
Saludos
GTT
Dear Robert Zermeno and other members of nuestro ranchos
fernando diaz de alcocer is the grandfather to Diego diaz de Alcocer .
No hay dos Jurado Diego de Alcocers, pero si hay dos Diego de Alcocer.
Fernando de Alcocer si tuvo un hijo Diego de Alcocer que murio joven.
El padre de Diego de Alcocer es el Doctor Pero (Pedro) Gonzalez de Alcocer.
I find diego de Alcocer listed as a son to Fernan Diaz de Alcocer as passing away at a young age.
One of the sources that Robert Zermeno identifies is " Juan de la Barreda y Acedo-Rico escribe en su libro Viejas Familias de Alcalá de Henares (p. 208) que el padre del doctor Pedro González de Alcocer fue Fernán Díaz de Alcocer. "
This book also identifies the son of Fernan Diaz de Alcocer named Diego Diaz de Alcocer as dying at a young age.
Sometimes I have found someone identified as a son to be a grandson, or someone identified as a grandchild to actually be a great grand child, I am leaning towards believing Laura Balletto's citation of the will stating that diego is Pedro Gonzalez de Alcocers son and therefore Fernando de Alcocers grandchild, and have identified him as such in my tree.
R.A. Ricci
Hi rick,
There’s a Merced from 1501 where Diego de alcocer married to Blanca Nunez is alive. It covers the confiscated property of his wife who was accused by the inquisition. It seems he didn’t die young. In the manuscript it clearly states he’s the brother of dr, Juan Diaz de Alcocer whose parents were Fernando Diaz de alcocer and María Ortiz.
Here is the citation from Pares: Merced a Diego de Alcocer, jurado, vecino de Sevilla, de todos los bienes confiscados a Blanca Núñez, su mujer, acusada de hereje y apóstata.
Archivo General de Simancas,RGS,LEG,150001,4
http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas/servlets/Control_servlet?accion=4&tx…
Best,
Maven
Dear Maven
The source where I had picked up my information is Juan de la Barreda y Acedo-Rico in his book Viejas Familias de Alcalá de Henares.
My other source was Laura Balletto's citation of the will stating that diego is Pedro Gonzalez de Alcocers son and therefore Fernando de Alcocers grandchild, how do we explain this will? Pedro Gonzalez De Alcocer was a priest (.doctor Pedro González de Alcocer, canónigo de la Iglesia Catedral de Sevilla.) In this scenario Diego is illegitimate. Real estate deals involve the buyer checking for legal ownership of the seller. Real estate transactions must be written as oral real estate transactions are not enforceable. Laura Balleto’s citation of the Will shows that chain of ownership from the previous owner, Diego, and how he had acquired it, through an inheritance from his Father Pedro Gonzalez De Alcocer who stated in his will that he was leaving it to his son Diego.
Not all of Blanca Nuñez’s ancestors are Jewish. Her father is part of the nobility and descends from Portuguese royalty. Her mother descended from a Jewish family that served the king.
Are you sure that it doesn’t say “sobrino” De Doctor juan Diaz De Alcocer”?
http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas20/ViewImage.do?accion=42&txt_zoom=10…
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Hi Rick,
I see ‘hermano’. I am however a novice in reading old manuscript. I’ve asked a few people including historians and credible genealogists and they concur. Maybe others can weigh in? I see:
“QUE EL DOCTOR JUAN DÍAZ DE ALCOCER DEL NUESTRO CONSEJO VUESTRO HERMANO... “
In this immediate family there are many Diego’s and a few Pedro’s so I’m not surprised that people easily get them confused and much of my research is in secondary resources since Not everything is online and I’m in California.
According to Los Conversos y la Inquisicion Sevillana by Juan Gil v. 3, page 206-211. Dr. Juan Diaz de Alcocer was the Brother of Diego Alcocer (married to Blanca). Other brothers include 1. Fernando married to Gracia de Prado ( I think the Prado Madrid fam) 2. Pedro Gonzalez de Alcocer
Coincidently, in vol. 5 p. 394 of this book series it lists Pedro de Toledo married to Beatriz Fernandez, parents of Blanca Nunez is listed in reference to Beatriz testamento in 1508 where she requests to be buried in San Bartolomé ( judería Sevilla) and names her children. 1. Rodrigo de Toledo 2. Garcia de la Torre 3. Blanca Nunez , mujer del jurado Diego de Alcocer.
I’d be interested to know anything u would like to share on Pedro de Toledo or Beatriz fernandez. My research so far encompasses the alcocers including Maria Ortiz their mother but I’ve barely scratched the surface of Blanca. Any hints much appreciated.
Best,
Maven
Dear Maven,
I will be presenting some of my research next August in Oxnard , California.
Here is a valuable nugget that clears up the Temino-Trevino surname argument.
:
The Treviño surname came from Francisca Alcocer’s father. In a municipal archive of Sevilla he is named “Jurado Hernando Bañuelos de Treviño, obrero mayor de Cabildo”. In a secondary source Hernando Bañuelos is identified as a relative of Bernardino Velasco.
El apellido Treviño viene por el padre de Francisca Alcocer. En el archivo del municipal de Sevilla se encuentra su nombre escrito como “Jurado Hernando Bañuelos de Treviño, obrero mayor de Cabildo” Hernando Bañuelos es conocido como pariente de Bernardino De Velasco.
Here is another Golden Nugget:
Estatua de Don Fernando de Alcocer, estatua de Doña María Ortiz y pila bautismal.
Image at File: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Estatua_de_Don_Fernando_de_Al…
Looking at the information that I have on the Alcocer brothers, their positions and the dates, I still lean towards Diego being the son of the priest. Knowing what we know about real estate transactions, and how it is very important to know the chain of ownership of a property, that Diego was much, much younger than juan Diaz De Alcocer, I believe :
“Laura Balletto cites what seems to be a Last Will and Testament in Studi in onore di Geo Pistarino (p. 390-391) that Bernardo de Grimaldo “le hizo donación [a su hijo] en 1510 de una huerta a la Macarena, camino de Sant Lazaro, antaño propiedad del doctor Pero González de Alcocer, que había comprado al jurado Diego de Alcocer, su hijo;” “
Rick A. Ricci
Source : Mygenes2000
HI Rick.
Please share when and where you will present in Oxnard. I will be there! Thank you for the golden nuggets.
I have no doubt that Treviño/Termiño were used interchangeably or that Pedro had children, even a diego since its a common family name. What's confusing to me is still the timeline.
Have you ever read the processo of Lope Saavedra of 1539? To cut the telenovela short basically, it confirms that Francisca is married to Diego Tremiño, she has a sister named Beatriz married to Pedro de Leon (who we know parents are Diego alcocer & blanca Nunez) and they all came together from spain the year before on the same NAO. Also Francisca's daughter Francisca Velasco gives testimony in this proceso as well having slept with Lope who is her cousins husband.
Source Image: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSD2-437K-2?i=620
We know beatriz came in 1520 and that francisca came in 1538 from ship records. Francisca also already has a daughter near or of adult age so it still makes sense that both beatriz and Francisca are sisters, having the same parents.
on Bernandino Velasco, I thought Diego worked for him? Also francisca alcocer married into the Termiño de Velasco Family so it makes sense they were family.
Its really hard to keep this family straight. Such a tangled web.
Please let us know when you publish your book. We are waiting. :)
Best,
Maven
Hi Maven,
Here are some more nuggets.
Alfonso Ruiz De Temino was related to his wife Sancha Velasco. Besides Diego Temiño De Velasco’s parents being related, Diego was also related to his wife Francisca Alcocer. You were correct in calling it a tangled web. All three were related to Bernardino Velasco. And yes Hernando Banuelos de Treviño and Alfonso Ruiz De Temiño both worked for Bernardino Velasco.
I don’t have the date and exact address yet. I just know that the conference will be in Oxnard in August 2020. I’ll let you know the details as soon as Carlos Yturralde confirms them.
The timeline, the research I have on the Alcocer family, and the will stating that he is the son of Pedro, altogether lead me to believe that Diego is Juan’s nephew and not his brother.
And yes, I did know about the scandal. I am guessing that the Diego Treviño that left many descendants in New Mexico is one of the kids born from the scandal. The Treviño of course came from Hernando Bañuelos de Treviño.
Thank you,
Rick A. Ricci
Source: Mygenes2000
Maven,
I hope you are well. Below, you can find my novice attempt at the paleography of the document that shows the "Merced a Diego de Alcocer." I recognize I am not an expert and I apologize for the mistakes you will undoubtedly find. I am posting it here for the Nuestros Ranchos Community's reference from what I can tell, I agree with your assessment in that the document seems to state that a "Doctor Juan Diaz de Alcocer" and a "Diego de Alcocer" are brothers.
"...Don Fernando e doña Ysabel por la graçia de Dios rey y reyna de castilla de Leon de aragon de siçilia de granada de Toledo de balencia de galizia de mallorca de Sevilla de çerdeña de cordova de corçega de murçia de Jahen de los algraves de algezira de Gibraltar de las ylsas de canarya condes de barçelona e señores de viscaya e de molina /. Duqes de Atenas y de Neopatria condes de rruysellon e de çerdanya marqses de oristan e de goçiano. Por quitarlo nos ouymos mandado tomar e se tomo asyentos con vos el Jurado Diego de Alcocer vezino de las ciudad de Castilla en razon de los byenes de Blanca Nuñez vuestra muger que pertenecieron a la nuestra "??" e fisco por acusarla del delito de eregia y apostasía q la dicha Blanca Nuñez vuestra muger cometio de que se reconcilio ante la santa fe católica y vos el dicho Diego de Alcoçer desta e pagastes el quien por nosotros fue mandada la venta de “mjs” que nos “??” a dar e pagar por razón del dicho asiento de que nos damos por contentos e pagados por la presente syn que dello ayays demostrar y que hasta de pago e nos suplicastes e pedistes por merced vuestra mandásemos dar e fizisemos de todos los dichos bienes q por razón del dicho delito q la dicha Blanca Nuñez vuestra muger cometyo nos pertenecen y perteneçer puede en qualquier manera y nos dicho dando algunos buscados y el Dotor Juan Diaz de Alcoçer del nuestro consejo vuestro hermano nos ha fecho e fase y por que el asymysmo nos lo enbyo a suplicar e pedir por mi tuvimoslo por bien e por esta nuestra carta bo por fin queda la sygnado de esqrybano publico voz fazemos mi y “??” e donación pista no renovable de todos los dichos byenes asi muebles como rrayzes e semejantes de techos y araones deudas “??” qualesquier cosas debydas e pertenecientes a la dicha vuestra mujer que por razón della de lo suso dicho pertenecieron e pertenecen puedan darnos y a la dicha nuestra camara e fisco asy del dote de la dicha vuestra mujer tomo de oy os qualesquier bienes que por “??” de ella ayays avydo de su padre e madre de la dicha vuestra mujer y de otras qualesquier personas y en qualquier manera para que sean vuestros y de vuestros herederos y sucesores y de aquel o aquellos q debos..."
Thank you,
Luis Macías
Rick A. Ricci,
I hope this message finds you well. I am posting this message on October 5th, 2019 and while I realize this message thread started and died out several years ago I am excited to see that it has come back to life. Back when I first read it, I was excited to find that one of the ancestors mentioned here was Blanca Nuñez, my 13th Great Grandmother. Back when I first read this thread, I wanted to reach out to Don Guillermo Tovar de Teresa, but I learned of his passing after several attempts to reach him. I was very saddened by the news because after my several years of research, his name would routinely pop up and the genealogical community started to feel like family to me. I am also very familiar with your contributions, Mr. Ricci, and for me your name is also one of those common household names in the genealogical community; thank you for your many contributions.
I want to be honest in that for years I felt intimidated to participate in these forums, especially because I am not a historian or genealogist, just a guy who has come to love genealogy. I want to apologize if I make any mistakes and I hope you and the Nuestros Ranchos community will have patience with me in what I believe to be my first serious post.
Let me start my discussion by clarifying that the reason I am posting this message is to further inquire about the Jewsih ancestry of Blanca Nuñez, wife of Diego de Alcocer and daughter of Beatríz Fernández and Pedro de Toledo. As cited previously by Maven, The book “Los Conversos y la Inquisición Sevillana” by Juan Gil, shows that Blanca Nuñez was processed by the Inquisition and as a result had her properties confiscated. It states that she was accused of heresy and apostasy and the fact that she appears in this book, implies that she was a converso, but there is no mention of the religion she converted from. As you know, up until the expulsion of the Jews (and beyond), Spain had a rich cultural heritage and throughout the ages it was characterized by different levels of religious coexistence. That said, it stands to reason that without clarification, one could just as easily conclude that Blanca Nuñez could have been a Mulsim Converso. I believe that it is more likely that she was Jewish Converso, but without evidence, I am speculating and at best making an educated guess. The “Merced” granted to Diego de Alcocer, Blanca’s husband, found in PARES also provides some interesting clues about Blanca Nuñez. An excerpt from this Merced reads as follows (please forgive any mistakes in paleography, I recognize I am a novice):
As can be seen, it shows she was reconciled to the catholic faith, but again no mention of the religion from which she reconciled / converted. It doesen't help that it is a one page document! I haven't been able to find the "proceso inquisitorial" or "autos de fe" for Blanca Nuñez... perhaps more information could be ascertained from there.
So to my delight and suprise, when reading your contribution, I noticed you mentioned that Blanca Nuñez’s mother, Beatríz Fernández, descended from a Jewish family that served the king. Would you please share your sources for this account? I am excited about the possibility that such a record/source exists and I would be very grateful for your assistance.
Thank you in advance and I look forward to your reply.
P.D. Also many thanks to the contributions of Maven.
Luis Macías
Hello Luis, Blanca Nuñez is not the only Jewish Converso in the family. The Alcocer family repeatedly married Jewish Conversos. There were many connections to the Jewish conversó “Cota” family. The wives Leonor De San Pedro and María Ortiz were obviously Jewish Conversos. When I say Jewish conversos I mean that either they converted, or that they descend, from Jewish conversos. The conversion may have occurred a few generations before. Most of these conversos continued practicing some of their family traditions even if they truly converted. It was well known that Juan Diaz De Alcocer came from a family of Jewish conversos yet he and his siblings were very religious practicing Catholics. Juan’s parents, Fernando Diaz De Alcocer and María Ortiz, were also very religious Catholics who made many contributions to the Catholic church. 4) Fernando Diaz De Alcocer (Caballero de la Banda ca 1370) married to Leonor De San Pedro (investigating the strong possibility that she is the daughter of Alonso Martinez Cota and Leonor Martinez De San Pedro ) 5) Fernando Diaz De Alcocer (Junior)( Caballero de la Banda ca 1400) married to María Ortiz. (From the Cota family) 6) Doctor Pedro Díaz de Alcocer canónigo de Sevilla had an illegitimate son that is named in a will. 7) Jurado Diego de Alcocer married Blanca Núñez (hija de Pedro de Toledo y Beatriz Fernández) 8) Isabel De Alcocer married to Jurado Hernando de Bañuelos De Treviño 9) Doña Francisca de Alcocer, b. ca. 1502 ( declara ser natural de Salas de Bureba, en los Reinos de Castilla ) married to Diego Temino De Velasco ( son of Alfonso Ruiz De Temino and Sancha Velasco). ([aka Sancha Sánchez de Velasco]) Getting back to Blanca Nuñez, her parents are Andres (mistakenly referred to as Pedro by Gil) De Toledo and Beatriz Fernandez. Her parents names were very common during this time period. I have a married couple with these names from this time period that had a daughter named Blanca that fits perfectly into the family tree. Pedro de Toledo descends from a long line of nobility and Portuguese royalty on his father’s side. Pedro’s mother also descended from Jewish conversos. Pedro’s father was married twice and both his wives descend from Jewish conversos. I haven’t traced Beatriz Fernandez’s ancestry but there are clues that she is a Jewish conversa, so Blanca Nuñez would have learned Jewish religion and traditions from her mother. Thank You, Rick A. Ricci Source Mygenes2000
Rick A. Ricci,
Thank you for your reply and for your clues. I have followed some of the leads you have provided and they have helped strengthen my suspicion that the family was indeed Judeo-Converso. I am still searching for conclusive evidence, because as of yet, the sources I have found appear to make the case of the their Judeo-Converso heritage based on strong circumstantial evidence. I concede that I have not yet finished reading through all of the clues you have pointed me to, but I hope to be sending you my comments within a couple of days to continue the discussion. While I finish investigating a bit more, please do send more information my way should you come across something interesting regarding the Blanca Nuñez's Jweish ancestry. Thank you, and thanks to those in this group for your willingness to collaborate and to share your ideas.
Anyone else, with something to share or comment, please feel free to do so. All ideas are welcome.
Para cualquier persona que solicite traducción o aclaración de algunos de mis mensajes escritos en Inglés, hágamelo saber por favor, que con gusto le respondo.
Regards,
Luis Macías
Dear Luis,
I am sorry for not be clearer. It is not just circumstantial evidence that they came from a family of Jewish. conversos. Even though Juan Diaz de Alcocer and his siblings embraced the Catholic religion, it was well known that they descended from Jewish conversos. The family had cousins that took a little longer to convert and they were subject to the inquisition. The Cota and San Pedro families from
Alcalá de Henares are two prominent Jewish families that Diego Alcocer descends from. Not all of Blanca Nuñez ancestors are Jewish conversos, as I can trace Pedro Toledo’s paternal ancestry to nobility and royalty.
Thanks,
Rick A, Ricci
Mr. Ricci,
I hope you are well. I have done some research on the subject and I found an author by the name of María del Pilar Rábade Obradó, who has written many articles on Judeo-Conversos in the Spanish courts. An interesting article has to do with el Doctor Juan Díaz de Alcocer married to María Tellez. The parents of this Doctor Juan Díaz de Alcocer were Fernando Díaz de De Alcocer and María Ortíz. This means that this Doctor Juan Díaz de Alcocer of whom I speak of was the brother of Doctor Pedro Díaz de Alcocer, canónigo de Sevilla. As a side note, one point of discussion in this thread is around the connection to Jurado Diego de Alcocer; some evidence you have brought forth suggests that he is the illegitimate son of Doctor Pedro Díaz de Alcocer, canónigo de Sevilla, and evidence provided by Maven seems to suggest that he is the brother of Doctor Juan Díaz de Alcocer and therefore the son of Fernando Díaz de Alcocer and María Ortíz.
Let me cite some interesting lines:
“…Tenía el doctor de Alcocer fama de converso, y por tal era tenido en la Corte de los Reyes Católicos. Márquez Villanueva, que ha estudiado el entorno familiar de los Díaz de Alcocer, llega a la conclusión de que puede haber pocas dudas en este sentido. Sea como sea, resulta absolutamente imposible certificar la veracidad de esta hipótesis, aunque tenga visos de ser, efectivamente, verídica.
“…Casado con María Ortiz —a la que Márquez Villanueva relaciona con los Cota toledanos, una de las familias conversas más prominentes de la Ciudad Imperial — fue Fernando padre de una numerosa prole, de la que Juan fue el que alcanzó una mayor gloria, aunque hay que destacar que una de las características más marcadas de la familia es su evidente inclinación por el servicio a la monarquía, siendo varios los hermanos del doctor Juan de Alcocer que pasaron también a ingresar las nóminas de los oficiales regios, tal como se verá más adelante…”
From these two passages it seems that although it is impossible to certify (with documentary evidence) that Mr. Juan Díaz de Alcocer (and therefore his siblings) are of Jewish Converso ascendance, it is however likely with very little doubt that he was indeed a Jewish Converso. This falls in line with your conclusion that they were Jewish Converso. The situation that I have is that, although I am convinced they are of Jewish Converso origin, I am indeed looking for documentary evidence and have not been able to find any so far. Have you found any?
“…Una vez efectuado este cálculo, no parece descabellado suponer que el abuelo del doctor de Alcocer bien pudo haber nacido en los años finales del siglo xiv, por lo que fácilmente podría tratarse del primer miembro cristiano de la familia, relacionándose su posible conversión tal vez con los tumultos de 1391, o incluso con los alborotos relacionados con las predicaciones de Vicente Ferrer…”
“…Por otra parte, los Díaz de Alcocer parecen moverse como pez en el agua entre los otros oficiales conversos de la Corona, señalando Márquez Villanueva cómo entre la abundante descendencia de Fernando Díaz de Alcocer se cuentan numerosos matrimonios con conversos, lo que avalaría, una vez más, la tesis de que ellos mismos también lo fueran (F. MÁRQUEZ VILLANUEVA, Investigaciones sobre Juan Álvarez Gato..., pág. 74.)…”
From these two passages a hypothesis is made about the possible first converso in the Díaz de Alcocer Family, which was likely Fernando Díaz de Alcocer, Married to Leonor De San Pedro. Again, very likely and very strong circumstantial evidence that they were converso, but no documentary evidence to support this.
Several articles I have read cite the following book by Francisco Márquez Villanueva: Investigaciones sobre Juan Álvarez Gato: Contribución al conocimiento de la literatura castellana del siglo XV (Anejos del Boletín de la Real Academia Española). This book includes a serious study about the origins of the Díaz de Alcocer Family and in it I hope to find further evidence of the connection of María Ortíz to the Cota Family and further evidence of marriages down the line of this family to Jewish Conversos. I have purchased the book and hope to be getting it within a couple of weeks. I will be happy to share my findings with the group.
Now, coming back to the original subject of interest I had in establishing that Blanca Núñez (Married to Jurado Diego de Alcocer) was as Jewish Converso, I have not yet found documentary evidence to prove it. So far, the clues you have graciously provided (thank you for this), point to her husband’s family, where we can conclude that there is a strong likelihood that el Jurado Diego de Alcocer was from Jewish Converso descent. I hope that once I study the Book from Francisco Márquez Villanueva, I will find more clues and possibly a path to find some hard documentary evidence.
I would like to share that I hope to obtain Spanish Citizenship through being able to establish that I have Jewish ancestry. I have been working on my ancestry for years and the most promising lead to establish my Jewish Ancestry is through Blanca Núñez, my 13th Great Grandmother. The problem I have with this ancestor is that the evidence I have from her is not conclusive in that she was a Jewish Converso. Juan Gil in his book, Los Conversos y la Inquisición Sevillana, only states that she is a Conversa, but does not clarify if she is a Jewish Conversa. The record from Pares, regarding the “Merced” granted to her husband Diego de Alcocer states that she was processed for heresy and apostasy but does not show she was a “Judaizante.” I am planning to investigate Blanca´s parents and her husband’s family in hopes to find conclusive evidence that they were either Jewish or Jewish Conversos, which would help establish strong circumstantial evidence that either a Jewish/Converso husband or parents, are evidence that she was likely also a Jewish Conversa. Unfortunately this approach is indirect, but worth a shot. I would much rather prefer to establish direct evidence of Blanca’s Nuñez’ Jewish faith or ancestry, but so far this has proven elusive.
I wanted to clarify this to help explain why the type of proof I am looking for is something that can be provided as documentary evidence (for example: Inquisition Proceso). Unfortunately, strong suspicions of Jewish ancestry do not count as documentary evidence for the purposes of my research =(, but it provides clues of where I could possibly find more information! Of course, this is a difficult task, especially for a period where concealing Jewish ancestry was a matter of life and death.
One thing I have always wondered about is the Inquisition Record for Blanca Núñez. The only thing I have been able to find in “Pares” is the the “Merced” granted to Diego de Alcocer, her husband, but not the proceso. Perhaps the Inquisition Proceso may yield more information? Anybody have any clues of where it can be found? That said, this and any other documentary evidence or clues on this subject would be much appreciated. Comments also greatly appreciated! Thank you.
Regards,
Luis Macías
Mr. Ricci,
I hope you are well. These past couple of weeks I have been investigating this converso family and have not come up with any new sources or clues other than the ones I have posted and those that already appear on this post. I wanted to respectfully and humbly ask you for guidance and some clarification on comments you have previously made:
All,
I would like to share some additional information on the lineage of the house of “Alcocer.” The source is cited below and it contains a wealth of information on genealogy of this family.
CASA DE ALCOCER:
Source / Documentary Evidence
Colección Salazar y Castro de la RAH
Sacadas del libro V del Teatro Genealógico, de don José de Pellicer de Tovar. Madrid, 1667.
Manuscrito, con escudos de armas dibujados a pluma con tinta negra, en el fº 110; uno en el fº 125 y otro en el 131.
Pertenece a la Genealogía de la antigua y noble familia de Alcocer, y casas ilustres que proceden de ella ... [9/146, fº 110 a 133. El fº 121 bis está en blanco y sin numerar.]
CLICK HERE FOR HYPERLINK
(UPDATED OCT 22nd 2019 TO FIX HYPERLINK ISSUE)
Regards,
Luis Macías
I am finding references to a marriage between Juan Padilla Davila and Antonia Martin del Campo in several places. The date given is 25 abril 1705, either in Jalostotitlan or San Juan de los Lagos.
Juan Padilla Dávila y Gutiérrez de Hermosillo (aka Juan de la Mota y Padilla) ( aka Juan De Abila Padilla ) and Antonia Martin del Campo y Flores De la Torre are the parents of Juana Manuela Padilla.
Juana Manuela Padilla was married to Jacinto De La Torre Ledesma. They are my ancestors
Juana Manuela Padilla was baptized 24/Jun/1718 in San Juan De los Lagos, Jalisco
Try looking for records of Juan Padilla with various combinations of De Abila Padilla, Padilla Davila, Padilla De la Mota, Padilla Gutierrez, Padilla
Good luck,
Rick A. Ricci
I believe, it may be mixed in the Jalostotitlán records or San Juan de los Lagos. I descend from Juan de Padilla y Dávila and Antonia Martín del Campo through their daughter Rosa de Padilla y Dávila. She was married on 10 Feb 1732 in Jalostotitlán to Joseph González de Rubalcaba, they are my seventh great grandparents through my father.
Best Regards,
Daniel Méndez de Torres y Camino
Does anyone know there surrounding parishes near Cotija. It appears there isnt any church records of Cotija for my grandmother in 1815. Please Help. Thanks.
Hola! No pude evitar interesarme a su plática de los Valencia de Cotija... y es que, tengo una linea que data de 1700 aprox. Se trata de:
Miguel Angel Valencia (el acta de matrimonio aparentemente dice "originario de Cotija") Casado en 1748 en Teocuitatlan de Corona, vecino de San Antonio.
Su esposa: Maria Antonia Villaseñor Trujillo (viuda)
Sus padres: Nicolas Valencia y Anna De Orosco
Sus hijos: Francisco Xavier, Manuel Ricardo, Ana Maria, Juan Jose, Terezha, Guadalupe, Josefa, Michaela, Francisco Roman, Jose Maria.
De casualidad tendran algun dato de sus padres Nicolas Valencia y Anna de Orosco en Cotija?
Saludos y todo lo mejor!
Veronica
también comparto algunas raíces por el lado paterno, el González resultó de Cotija y no de los Reyes como yo creí, pero no solo ese sino González Valladares, Medina Vargas y también Alvares , pero no sé como aventajar más ya que los registros que he encontrado realmente son recientes cerca de 1900 poco antes, no sé de dónde se puede conseguir más información sobre Cotija o si alguien de aquí tiene alguno de esos apellidos.
los padres de mi abuelo José Hilario Malaquias González García (nacido en los Reyes 3 nov de 1867) fue....
Onofre González Valladares y María Marina García Alvares
sus abuelos paternos fueron Vicente González y Encarnación Valladares de Cotija
sus abuelos maternos fueron Ignacio García y Ramona Alvares, aqui si encontré en inf. matrimonial en los Reyes, pero no aparecen los datos ya que al casarse ya tenían dos hijos, por lo mismo supongo que se evitaron la información importante sobre los nombres de sus padres etc. Por otro lado también la mamá de mi abuela era de Cotija, encontré matrimonios posteriores de mi tatarabuelo y pude sacar información, pero de su primera esposa (mi tatarabuela)no, ya que casaron en Cotija, y eran José María Medina y Gertrudis Vargas, padres de María de Jesús Medina Vargas casada con Loreto de Jesús Zamudio Arciga, padres de mi abuela Virginia Zamudio Medina, ojalá alguien del grupo comparta alguna de estas raíces.
De antemano les agradezco su atención y mis mejores deseos a todo el grupo
Saludos a todos,
Veronica, como dice el dicho "Mejor tarde que nunca"! Aunque no he descubierto quienes fueron los padres de Nicolas de Valencia, si encontre datos que nos dan a saber quienes lo fueron de Anna de Orozco, esposa de Nicolas de Valencia.
Nicolas de Valencia y Ana de Orozco fueron originarios de Cotija. Entre los hijos que tuvieron en Cotija, sabemos que (por lo menos) tres de ellos se fueron a poblar Jalisco. Aqui estan los tres hijos que conocemos:
Miguel Angel Valencia cc Maria Antonia de Villasenor y Trujillo
Juan Manuel Valencia cc Andrea Gudino (Son mis 6x great grandparents)
Maria Teresa Valencia cc Diego de Ochoa
Se fueron a vivir a San Antonio Tuxcueca, jurisdicción de Teocuitatlan, Jalisco.
Encontre hace poco una dispensa matrimonial en donde se trata de una hija de Maria Teresa Valencia (Maria Antonia Ochoa):
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-66SD-6M?i=105&wc=12512730&…
En la dispensa, nos relata que entre los novios hay consanguinidad en 4to con 3ero grado:
Tronco: Francisco Oceguera***
Leonor de Oceguera cc Pedro Ruiz de Alcaraz Francisca de Oceguera cc Francisco de Orozco
Catalina de Alcaraz cc Juan Sanchez Banales Anna de Orozco cc Nicolas de Valencia
Antonia Sanchez Banales cc Diego Martin Barragan Maria Teresa Valencia cc Diego Ochoa
Pedro Martin Barragan (novio) Maria Antonia Ochoa (novia)
Asi que los padres de Anna de Orozco fueron Francisco de Orozco y Francisca de Oceguera.
***Ojo, los testigos estan equivocados en quien fue el tronco. No fue Francisco de Oceguera, sino que lo fue Diego de Oceguera Coronado y Ana Vazquez Manzo. Sabemos esto gracias a esta dispensa para el matrimonio entre Francisco de Orozco y Francisca de Oceguera (de los archivos del Obispado de Michoacan):
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-5VSL-3F?mode=g&i=376&wc=3N…
Diego de Oceguera Coronado y Ana Vazquez Manzo fueron de los primeros en poblar el valle de Cotija, incluso Ana Vaquez Manzo heredo la hacienda de Cotija que fue fundada por su abuelo, Melchor Manzo de Corona.
Espero que te sirvan los datos.
Daniel Serna Valencia
Despues de meses de armar el rompecabezas de la familia Valencia de Cotija... (Por medio de decenas de dispensas matrimoniales que encontre en el archivo del viejo Obispado de Michoacan) He descubierto que los padres de Nicolas de Valencia fueron:
Melchor de Valencia Pina (El Viejo) cc Magdalena de Liebana y Orozco.
Magdalena de Liebana y Orozco (Originaria de Tangancicuaro, Michoacan) fue hija de Alvaro Maciel y Isabel Orozco del Castillo. Sabemos esto gracias a esta dispensa que solicito Melchor para casarse por segunda vez (Su primera esposa fue Juana de la Pena y Orozco):
Dispensa para el matrimonio entre Melchor de Valencia Pina y Magdalena de Liebana y Orozco
Tambien tengo la partida de bautizmo de Nicolas:
Julio 13, 1665 - Chilchota, Michoacan
Hasta ahorita no he encontrado quienes fueron los padres de Melchor. Ni he encontrado datos sobre su origen. Solo se que nacio por el ano de 1616 y sabemos que se caso, por primera vez, con Juana de la Pena y Orozco con quien tuvo varios hijos. Los hijos de Melchor y Juana fueron los Valencia que poblaron Chilchota, Tlazazalca, etc. Los hijos que Melchor tuvo con Magdalena poblaron Cotija, Tamazula, Sayula, Teocuitatlan, etc.
Melchor de Valencia Pina tuvo un hermano que se llamo Francisco de Valencia Pina, solo sabemos de su existencia por medio de la informacion matrimonial de Nicolas de Munguia y Ana de Liebana, en donde el fue unos de los testigo. No se sabe si tuvo descendencia.
Informacion Matrimonial de Nicolas de Munguia y Ana de Liebana
La pregunta que queda ahora es de donde son originarios los Valencia Pina? Mi sospecha es que Melchor de Valencia Pina fue el progenitor de los Valencia de Michoacan y Jalisco. He buscado por todos lados pistas sobre el apellido de Valencia Pina, y nada. Hay una pista en la informacion matrimonial de Nicolas de Munguia y Ana de Liebana en donde Melchor es testigo, y dijo en su testimonio que conoce a Nicolas de Munguia desde que nacio hace como 20 anos. Esto nos dice que Melchor estaba viviendo en Tangancicuaro, Michoacan desde, por lo menos, 1640. Antes de 1640 no se sabe en donde estuvo Melchor o Francisco su hermano. Quizas Melchor y Francisco fueron los que se brincaron "el charco" del oceano Atlantico para empezar una nueva vida en la Nueva Espana?
Daniel Serna Valencia
Hola Daniel,
Aqui la IM de Gertrudis de Amesqua y Mateo Rebolledo, 2 Feb 1659. Gertrudis de Amesqua es hija de Gaspar de Amesqua y de Catalina de Piña y Valencia.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-KG9K-6Q?i=86&wc=3NTX-1…
Parece que hay impedimento por una relacion que tuvo Mateo Rebolledo con Monica de Valencia, prima hermana de Gertrudis Amesqua. La Monica de Valencia es hija de Francisco de Valencia y de Magdalena de Tzipaqua (India); Francisco de Valencia es hermano de Catalina de Piña y Valencia. Salen Francisco de Valencia y Melchor de Valencia de testigos, no se dan sus edades.
Gracias y saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo
Muchisimas gracias Manny!
As always you come through in spades! I hadn't yet run across that informacion matrimonial. Catalina is indeed another sibling of Francisco and Melchor. (I had heard of Catalina through another dispensa for a great-grandchild. It's nice to know that it was correct. :-) )
I also found out that there's another sibling, Juan de Valencia Pina. Melchor, Juan, Catalina, and Francisco appear to be from the same generation, i.e. early 1600s.
I hope to someday find some documents for at least one of these folks where it says where they're from and/or their parents. It seems that the marriages for Espanoles from Tangancicuaro have pretty good coverage in the Morelia archives, so there's hope!
Thanks Again!
Daniel Serna Valencia
Daniel, Manny, primos
Although the roots of these lastnames are not located in Nueva Galicia but in Michoacán, they originated through the years many lineages Novo galaicos.
I´m descendant of one of the witnesses of the dispensa of Melchor de Valencia Piña "El Viejo" and therefore have gathered some information related to the referred lastnames.
In the mentioned dispensa Melchor is willing to marry Magdalena de Liébana, daughter of Álvaro Maciel Blancharte and Isabel de Orozco del Castillo Liébana; well I´m descendat of a sister of this Magdalena whose name was Gerónima de Liébana baptized in Tangancícuaro in 1621, married to Juan Asencio de León in 1637 , this Juan Asencio was one of the witnesses of Melchor de Valencia in 1663 when Juan declared to be more than 60 years old.
In the dispensa the witnesses declare that the "pretensa" was the daughter of Isabel de Orozco and that this Isabel de Orozco was "Prima hermana" of the deceased first wife of Melchor named Juana de la Peña, this relationship was as a result of Juana and Isabel being daughters of two sisters whose names are not mentioned.
The information contained in the dispensa corroborates some notes that I had concerning these families: I had that the mother of Isabel de Orozco del Castillo Liébana married to Álvaro Maciel, was also named Isabel del Castillo Orozco Liébana (I´ll call her "La Vieja") who was born around 1585 and married around the year 1605 to Juan de Zamora , they were the parents of Isabel ("La Moza" born around 1600), Juana (bap 10-jul-1606, in Zamora)and Francisca (bap 5-may-1621, in Chilchota)
In my notes I have that Isabel (La Vieja) had at least two siblings : María de Orozco del Castillo Liébana (born around 1595) married on 24th-apr-1617, in Zamora, to Pedro de Peñas Lupiana, who was Corregidor de Tlazazalca, they were the parents of Juana de la Peña Orozco (the above mentioned first wife of Melchor de Valencia);
The other sibling of María de Orozco and Isabel (La Vieja)was Francisco Tello de Orozco Álvarez del Castillo, born around 1580 and married ca 1605 Mariana de Carvajal Padilla , they baptized their son Gerónimo on 26th-aug-1607.
The parents of these three siblings were Gerónimo de Orozco Liébana and Isabel de Castañeda, married ca1580 and they were "Padrinos" of their grandaughter Juana de Zamora Orozco del Castillo Liébana on 10th-jul-1606, I also found them as "vecinos de Zamora" on 1613. The mentioned Juana de Zamora orozco del Castillo Liébana was daughter of Isabel Orozco del Castillo Liébana (La Vieja) and Juan de Zamora, and therefore Juana was sister of Isabel Orozco del Castillo Liébana (La moza) who married Álvaro Maciel Blancharte around 1620.
Thank you Carlos for the information! This is another treasure trove of info that I can add to my notes. Slowly but surely, the pieces to how these families were related are falling into place!
Thank You Primo!
Daniel Serna Valencia
Another piece of the puzzle to the Valencia family tree... In the Informacion Matrimonial de Melchor de los Reyes y Catalina de Ontiveros, Tangancicuaro - 10 de Julio 1670 one of the witnesses, Francisco de Valencia Pina, anciano del pueblo de Tangantziquaro, de edad de mas de cinquenta anos, gave testimony that his parents were none other than:
Melchor de Valencia Pina cc Catalina de Barba Coronado Maldonado
The IM also further clarifies some of the Valencia family relationships. The IM doesn't state where Melchor and Catalina were from, but, at least we are taken back one more generation. (BTW, the Melchor de Valencia Pina called out above is not to be confused with the Melchor Valencia Pina (II) who married twice (1st to Juana de la Pena, 2nd Magdalena de Maciel Orozco) nor Melchor de Valencia Pina (III) wed to Isabel Morfin.)
All told, here's what the Valencia Pina y Barba Coronado family looks like:
Daniel Serna Valencia
Dear Daniel,
You have Melchor de Valencia Pina (II) married twice, first to Juana De la Peña, and second to Magdalena Maciel Orozco.
But Melchor de Valencia Pina (III) that is married to Isabel Morfin has his parents as Melchor De Valencia (II) and “Juana Orosco”. So Juana De la Peña was also known as “Juana Orosco” taking the The Orosco surname from her mothers side.
Melchor De Valencia Pina
Spouse's Name Ysavel Morfin
Event Date 05 Feb 1664
Event Place Chilchota,Michoacan,Mexico
Father's Name Melchor De Valencia
Mother's Name Juana De Orosco
Spouse's Father's Name Antonio Rs. Morfin
Spouse's Mother's Name Ana De Lubana (Luebana)
Citing this Record
"México matrimonios, 1570-1950," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JCFR-WBL : 10 February 2018), Melchor De Valencia in entry for Melchor De Valencia Pina and Ysavel Morfin, 05 Feb 1664; citing Chilchota,Michoacan,Mexico, reference ; FHL microfilm 640,983
I am still looking for the parents of , Nicolas Valencia and Josepha Martinez who were most likely born in the late 1600’s as I have their son marrying in 1736.
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Hi Rick,
Correct on both counts. Juana de la Pena was also known as Juana de Orozco, daughter of Pedro de Penas(de la Pena) and Maria de Orozco. Melchor de Valencia Pina (III) is indeed the son of Melchor de Valencia Pina (II) and Juana de la Pena/Orozco.
Unfortunately, I don't yet have a concrete lead to share on Nicolas de Valencia and Josefa Martinez. I have a tiny lead on a Nicolas de Valencia (His parents were not listed, but, it does say that he was an Espanol from Tangancicuaro, Michoacan) that married a Josefa Nunez in Zamora in 1674. They had a son named Nicolas de Valencia Nunez, however, I have to yet to find if this Nicolas de Valencia Nunez ended up in Ocotlan nor have I found if he married a Josefa Martinez.
I can tell you that there are other Nicolas de Valencias in Michoacan in the late 1600s. The others that I have found do not appear to have lived in Ocotlan nor did they father a son named Lorenzo that went on to marry in Ocotlan in 1736. I'll keep looking and will let you know if I find something.
Daniel Serna Valencia
Does anyone know if she was the sister of Magdalena de Liebana, 2nd wife of Melchor de Valencia? In my tree on Ancestry, it suggested that the parents of Ana de Liebana are Alvaro Maciel and Isabel del Castillo Orosco.
Ana and Melchor's first wife were both my 10th great grandmothers.
Yes, there was an Ana de Liebana, daughter of Alvaro Yanez Maciel and Isabel Orozco del Castillo. She was married to Antonio Rodriguez Morfin who had the following children:
Ana Morfin cc Francisco de Zepeda y Castro
Geronimo Morfin cc Diego de Garibay y Mendoza
Juana Morfin cc Juan Tamayo
Maria Morfin cc ??? she had a Valencia child and a Moreno child
Isabel Morfin cc Melchor de Valencia Pina (III) This Melchor was the son of Melchor de Valencia Pina (II) and Juana de la Pena.
Daniel Serna Valencia
Hi Daniel.
I have the same question because some my maternal grandmothers ancestors were also from Cotija. What lines are you tracing in Cotija?? Mine are Mendoza and Farias. Rafael Meraz
Hi Rafael,
My line is Valencia in Cotija. You'll notice that Cotija film starts around 1800 or so. Before that
I still have not discovered where people would go. I have had no luck since I never really studied
my Valencia family. I would guess a good place to check would be Sahuayo or Jacona. Lots
of families from Cotija moved to Tamazula, La Barca, Ciudad Guzman, etc.
Daniel Méndez Camino
Rafael:
On March 20th 1918, Ines Chavez garcia, called "El Indio", attacked the Cotija and made a series of misdeeds with a group of approximately 1000 men and, among other disasters, they burned the parish records. That's why we do not exist. The only references are some marriage information, records of confirmations and books that were sheltered in Zamora and the information in the Archivo General de la Nación.
There are some books that can give valuable references on the inhabitants of Cotija:
1.-Cotija, Un pueblo y una época. Leonel Tinajero Villaseñor, B. Costa Amic, Editor, México, 1971.
2.-Cotija, Cuna de Trotamundos, primera parte. José Romero Vargas, México, 1973.
3.-Cotija durante las revoluciones 1900-1926, segunda parte. José Romero Vargas, B. Costa Amic, editor, México, 1978.
These books have been very useful for my family tree. I hope they are useful for you too.
Luis Núñez Gornés
Luis:
My cousin Linda and share a line through the Mendez de Torres that goes back to Cotija, Michoacan. We descend from Jose Cayetano de Valencia who married Maria Josefa de los Dolores de Figueroa. This couple married sometime ca. 1812 in Cotija or Tamazula de Gordiano or the surrounding area. Josefa Figueroa was born on 18 Aug 1798 in Tamazula de Gordiano. They had Francisca de Figueroa who later on 13 Jun 1833 married my third great grandfather Jose Guadalupe Sabas Mendez de Torres in Tamazula. The family would stay in Tamazula where eventually my father was born We have not found any baptismal records for their kids, though they all married in Tamazula all state they are from Cotija like their father. I do not doubt that this Valencia family is the same one who populated places like Sahuayo, Jiquilpan, Zamora, etc. Do you have any clues or any advice I could use. Since many records of Cotija appear to be lost or burned.
Daniel Méndez Camino
Daniel:
Supongo hablas español. If not, tell me and i'll write the next messages in English.
La mayor parte de la información que tengo en mi árbol genealógico respecto a Cotija, por mi línea paterna, la he obtenido de los libros mencionados, de la información que he podido rescatar de los pocos libros que no se quemaron y con la valiosa contribución de Leonel Tinajero que se ha dedicado muchos años a documentar el árbol genealógico de los Valencia. Tiene una infinidad de datos, todos ellos confirmados con documentos o narraciones orales. Si te interesa conocer lo que yo tengo, consulta mi árbol en línea en:
http://gw.geneanet.org/turandot1
Ahí encontrarás muchos Valencia.
Luis
Estimado Luis,
Mi línea más antiguo de los Valencia son los siguientes, D. Vicente de Valencia y Da. María Josefa Oseguera. Aun no he podido encontrar más información sobre ellos. Ojalá tendrás un dato que me puede dar una pista sobre sus orígenes. Podías, si no es molestia, buscar en los libros que tienes sobre Vicente Valencia y Josefa Oseguera.
Un cordial saludo,
Daniel Méndez Camino
Daniel:
Tengo datos de los siguientes Vicentes Valencia:
Vicente Valencia Valencia, nacido en 1769, Cotija, Mic., MÉXICO, fallecido el 8 de septiembre 1849 (a la edad de 80 años).
Casado con Marcela Mendoza Espinosa, con
* Vicente Valencia Mendoza, nacido en 1794, fallecido.
Casado con Altagracia Vargas Ruiz, con
o Benigna Valencia Vargas, nacida en 1824, fallecida.
Casada con Juan González Oseguera.
o Natividad Valencia Vargas, nacida en 1840, Cotija, Michoacán, México, fallecida el 19 de marzo 1887, Cotija, Michoacán, México (a la edad de 47 años).
Casada en 1871, Cotija, Mic., México, con Prudencio Guízar González, nacido en 1835, Cotija, Mic., MÉXICO, fallecido alrededor de 1897, Guadalajara, Jalisco, México (a la edad de posiblemente 62 años).
o Flora Valencia Vargas.
Casada con José María Guízar González, nacido en 1837, Cotija, Michoacán, México, fallecido en 1909, Guadalajara, Jalisco, México (a la edad de 72 años).
o Mercedes Valencia Vargas.
Casada con Justo Oseguera.
o Dolores Valencia Vargas.
Casada con Ignacio Oseguera.
o Vicente Valencia Vargas.
Y de los Valencia Oseguera:
Juan Valencia Oseguera.
Casado con María Luisa Oseguera Vázquez, nacida en 1699, fallecida, con
* Dionisio, nacido en 1720, fallecido.
Casado con Tomasa Oseguera Mendoza, con
o Juan José.
Casado con Mariana Valencia, con
+ Vicente Valencia Valencia, nacido en 1769, Cotija, Mic., MÉXICO, fallecido el 8 de septiembre 1849 (a la edad de 80 años).
Casado con Marcela Mendoza Espinosa.
Casado con Josefa Alcazar.
+ José Antonio Valencia Valencia, nacido en 1772, fallecido.
Casado con María Josefa Del Toro Torres, nacida en 1774, fallecida.
+ María Manuela Valencia Valencia, nacida en 1777, fallecida.
Casada con Vicente Morfín Campero, nacido en 1772, fallecido.
o Manuel Valencia Oseguera.
o Inés.
o Francisco.
o Tadeo.
o Fernando.
No he encontrado datos de Vicente Valencia casado con María Josefa Oseguera...
Espero que los datos que te proporciono te sean de utilidad.
Un saludo cordial,
Luis Núñez Gornés
As a follow up to this thread, does anyone know where I can get these books?
I seem to have come to a dead end on my Barbosa line, as they were from Cotija, then moved to Tamazula in the 1790's / early 1800s... also one of my ancestors from there was named Guizar, which seems to be a common name in Cotija.
Any help is appreciated...
The books are:
1.-Cotija, Un pueblo y una época. Leonel Tinajero Villaseñor, B. Costa Amic, Editor, México, 1971.
2.-Cotija, Cuna de Trotamundos, primera parte. José Romero Vargas, México, 1973.
3.-Cotija durante las revoluciones 1900-1926, segunda parte. José Romero Vargas, B. Costa Amic, editor, México, 1978.
I can only seem to find first editions online which are very expensive
Cheers
Hi guys and gals
Hello Gaby,
I have Bernabe de Guizar as the son of Domingo de Guizar and Isabel de Silva y Bedoya. Magdalena de Valencia I have down as the daughter of Juan de Valencia Pina and Lucia de Torres Guerrero y Oceguera
Here's Bernabe's bautizmo:
May 24, 1691(Zamora, Michoacan)
Here's Domingo and Isabel's marriage:
February 28, 1688(Zamora, Michoacan)
I have a matrimonial dispensation available for one of their kids:
In my records, I have that Bernabe and Magdalena had, at least, the following children:
Juan de Guizar Valencia who married Maria Teresa Maldonado
Bernabe de Guizar Valencia who married Maria Josefa de Torres
Tiburcio de Guizar Valencia who married Maria Gertrudis Ruiz and later Josefa del Toro
I've seen in the archives of Morelia, Michoacan that the Guizars of Michoacan seem to have originated in Puruandiro, Michoacan. The oldest references I've seen of the Guizars is that of Domingo de Guizar Guerrero who married Agustina de Orozco Tovar. I suspect that Bernabe's father, Domingo de Guizar who married Isabel de Silva y Bedoya came from this Guizar Guerrero family.
Hope this helps,
Daniel Serna Valencia
Gracias x 1000 Daniel!!
Saludos
I don't...although, my Guizar family line has been very difficult to track. My Great Grandmother was Luciana Navarro Guizar and her parents were Pascual Navarro and Martina Guizar, they were from Zapopan Jalisco, my Great Grandfather Higinio Saldivar Macias and his family were all mostly from Nochistlan...although, my Great Grandparents had their children in Tamazula De Gordiano...think there may be a connection with your Guizar family and mine? I do also has Valencia DNA matches on 23andMe.
We may have a connection from Tamazula as I have may ancestors from there...
I don't have a DNA thing yet, I may get it in the new year, honestly I am not too keen on some company having my dna profile lol... too conspiracy theory for me :)
All I can gather from the census that were shared is that the Guizar name was not in Cotija until the mid 1700s, so that makes me wonder where they came from... I hope someone on here can chip in
Have a great day!
Gaby
Yes! I'm not sure where they originated either, but I do have one last living relative, an Aunt that was one of my Great Grandparents children...and she says that a lot of her Guizar family was very fair skinned and lots of them with colored (green, blue) eyes, which leads me to believe maybe European? This is my email address if you would like to contact me about the Guizar family that I do have on my tree to see if there may be a connection somewhere angelica.p.jaime@gmail.com
As for the DNA process...I felt the same way, but you can OPT out of having your DNA public or available to the Police Department, they have that option. Honestly, the only ones who should really worry are convicts lol
Having not even really discovered Mexican food, real mexican food until last year, where I Had some Suadero from a Comal, made by some Jalisco Locals in their backyard, I am now utterly entranced by s
My name is Betty Ritchley and like many of you, I have a rich and proud family ancestry based in Zacatecas.
Welcome Betty! I have a LOT of Jauregui DNA matches but have yet to figure out where they come in on my tree. My Paternal side were all mainly for Nochistlan, Los Duranes, Monte de Yanez, Zapopan, La Venta, and La Primavera. And same here! I'm willing to share any information that may help anyone else out here. My pedigree chart is posted here in Files :)
Good to have another cousin. I looked at the following record of your relatives and worked my way back.
Christoval Manuel Jáuregui Ximénez
1730–1789 • GSZ9-8DJ
Marriage: 17 FEB 1745Nochistlan,Zacatecas,Mexico
Catharina De Sarate y Aramburu
1725–Deceased • GSZ9-68F
I noticed you re related to many of us here through the Islas (Diego Delgadillo cc Petrona Gonsales Moscoso). There is another Margarita Martin de Sotomayor who is a single mother but not sure as i did not have her as a child of Andres Martin de Sotomayor (but I haven't reviewed it). You are also related to my cousins the Lomelins and if I could ever find the parents of Manuel Rodriguez 1750 cc to Petra Alonzo (Pinos, Las Vuidas, Aguascalientes or San Luis Potosi) maybe through the Rodriguez as well.
Hi everyone, I’m currently in Degollado, Jalisco visiting my parents.
Hi Esther!
I just saw this particular post of yours. I was in Degollado this summer too. And I went out to see the surrounding region like you did. It was an amazing experience.
I brought back a couple of books by José "Pepe" Villaseñor Ramírez that might interest you. One is a microhistoria of Degollado à la Pueblo en vilo. Microhistoria de San José de Gracia (1968) by Luis González y González. The other is an anthology of oral histories he collected from some of the older residents of the town. I don't have them in front of me know, but I'll share their titles here later. I bought them from his sister, about a half a block up from la Plaza de la Amistad.
Glenn
José Villaseñor Ramírez Book Titles:
1 - Crónicas de la memoria. Los oficios en el siglo XX en Degollado, Jalisco
2 - Casa grande, patria chica.
Hi Mr Alvarez,
Do you have family in Degollado? My parents and relatives live there. I had a wonderful time there. We did a lot of hiking and exploring up in the hills and ranches. Saw old abandoned homes and found indian carvings in rocks. My cousin has found a lot of indian artifacts up in the hills.
It's in amazing place to visit and relax.
That is so funny you have the books, I also purchased 3 books but I will have to check the titles when I get home. One of his books is about Degollado Dec. 1917 and my great grandfather is mentioned in there. He died in the battle they had in the town. I know he was working on another book but not if it is out yet.
Jose Villasenor Ramirez's aunt lives across the street from my grandparents home. I use to play with his cousins when we were kids.
Esther
Hi Esther,
Thanks for sharing,
Rick A. Ricci
Hola prim@s,
I love the comradery in our forum!
Gracias a todos <3
Hello All,
Here are some additional links to padrones for Cotija and Tinguindin:
Cotija
Tinguindin
Daniel, Thanks again for sharing the census,
I noticed that the one for 1776 is for Tinguindin, at at the very end the person doing it wrote, that Cotija was in a different book, have you by chance come across it?
Thanks to the one from 1742 I was able to find the link to my Guizar line, and others :)
Thank you in advance
I am having an audiobook produced, dedicated to my great-grandmother,
Hipolita Orendain de Medina.
This answer assumes you are seeking the Spanish pronunciation. I have no idea how Basque pronounces anything.
If there are no accent marks, then it would be o-REN-dain (o-REN-dine in English spelling), with accent on middle "REN." This is because in Spanish the next to the last syllable takes the stress in any word that ends in a vowel, "n," or "s." If the word ends in a consonant, then the stress is on the last syllable. The only way to change that is to use an accent mark to indicate the syllable that should have the accent.
If Oredain were to be pronounced with stress on the final syllable, o-ren-DAIN, then you would have to place an accent mark on the "a." The letters "e" and "i" are "weak" vowels in Spanish and so glide into and form a diphthong with the vowel next to them. Following this rule, "dai" would be pronounced like English "die" (setting aside for the moment the fact that Spanish "d" sounds more like English "th" and not English "d"), regardless whether it is the syllable that is stressed or not. If you wanted the final "i" to have the stress, then you'd have to put an accent mark on it.
As to what the original spelling with accent marks was, that might be mostly conjecture since Spanish famously did not start to use accent marks regularly prior to about two centuries ago.
If you can get away with it, just put Orendain in all caps ("ORENDAIN"). Then you can sidestep the whole accent mark question, since Spanish capital letters do not take diacritical marks.
I would go for a long i ( your second choice), but then that's how we (mexicans) pronounce it now, heavens knows how they did it back then.
Abraham de Alba
Enviado desde Yahoo Mail para Android
Also, the single "r" is not rolled. The double "rr" is rolled.
________________________________
From: Research on behalf of Abraham de Alba A.
Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2019 7:24 AM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org ; research-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.org ; research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Orendain pron
I would go for a long i ( your second choice), but then that's how we (mexicans) pronounce it now, heavens knows how they did it back then.
Abraham de Alba
Enviado desde Yahoo Mail para Android
El miér., 2 de oct. de 2019 a la(s) 15:47, research-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.org escribió: Send Research mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:
1. Need help with correct pronunciation of family name Orendain
(Laurel Anne Hill)
2. Two Diego de Alcocer (pavendano@earthlink.net)
3. Guadalajara Entierros (pavendano@earthlink.net)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 14:46:38 -0700
From: Laurel Anne Hill
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Need help with correct pronunciation of
family name Orendain
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am having an audiobook produced, dedicated to my great-grandmother,
Hipolita Orendain de Medina. I need to know the correct Spanish
pronunciation of "Orendain." I've gone to a variety of resources online,
but they don't all agree. I have no contact with any living relatives in
Mexico. Is the "dain" part of the name pronounced similar to the English
"dain" (long a sound), "dine" (long i sound) or "dean/deen" (long e sound)
? And where should the accent mark fall?
I truly would appreciate your assistance.
Thank you,
Laurel Anne Hill
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 18:39:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: pavendano@earthlink.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Two Diego de Alcocer
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hi Rick, I see ?hermano?. I am however a novice in reading old
manuscript. I?ve asked a few people including historians and credible
genealogists and they concur. Maybe others can weigh in? I see: ?QUE EL
DOCTOR JUAN D?AZ DE ALCOCER DEL NUESTRO CONSEJO VUESTRO HERMANO... ? In
this immediate family there are many Diego?s and a few Pedro?s so I?m
not surprised that people easily get them confused and much of my research is
in secondary resources since Not everything is online and I?m in
California. According to Los Conversos y la Inquisicion Sevillana by Juan Gil
v. 3, page 206-211. Dr. Juan Diaz de Alcocer was the Brother of Diego Alcocer
(married to Blanca). Other brothers include 1. Fernando married to Gracia de
Prado ( I think the Prado Madrid fam) 2. Pedro Gonzalez de Alcocer
Coincidently, in vol. 5 p. 394 of this book series it lists Pedro de Toledo
married to Beatriz Fernandez, parents of Blanca Nunez is listed in reference
to Beatriz testamento in 1508 where she requests to be buried in San
Bartolom? ( juder?a Sevilla) and names her children. 1. Rodrigo de Toledo
2. Garcia de la Torre 3. Blanca Nunez , mujer del jurado Diego de Alcocer.
I?d be interested to know anything u would like to share on Pedro de
Toledo. My research so far encompasses the alcocers including Maria Ortiz
their mother but I?ve barely scratched the surface if Blanca. Best, Maven
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 18:58:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: pavendano@earthlink.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Guadalajara Entierros
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hi Sus, This is great. Thank you for sharing. I found my many times gg
greatfather hernando Frias recorded. Best, Maven
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
I would go for a long i ( your second choice), but then that's how we (mexicans) pronounce it now, heavens knows how they did it back then.
Abraham de Alba
Enviado desde Yahoo Mail para Android
El miér., 2 de oct. de 2019 a la(s) 15:47, research-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.org escribió: Send Research mailing list submissions to
research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.nuestrosranchos.org/listinfo.cgi/research-nuestrosranchos…
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
research-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
research-owner@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Research digest..."
Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
DAILY DIGEST
****************************************
Today's Topics:
1. Need help with correct pronunciation of family name Orendain
(Laurel Anne Hill)
2. Two Diego de Alcocer (pavendano@earthlink.net)
3. Guadalajara Entierros (pavendano@earthlink.net)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 14:46:38 -0700
From: Laurel Anne Hill
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Need help with correct pronunciation of
family name Orendain
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am having an audiobook produced, dedicated to my great-grandmother,
Hipolita Orendain de Medina. I need to know the correct Spanish
pronunciation of "Orendain." I've gone to a variety of resources online,
but they don't all agree. I have no contact with any living relatives in
Mexico. Is the "dain" part of the name pronounced similar to the English
"dain" (long a sound), "dine" (long i sound) or "dean/deen" (long e sound)
? And where should the accent mark fall?
I truly would appreciate your assistance.
Thank you,
Laurel Anne Hill
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 18:39:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: pavendano@earthlink.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Two Diego de Alcocer
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hi Rick, I see ?hermano?. I am however a novice in reading old
manuscript. I?ve asked a few people including historians and credible
genealogists and they concur. Maybe others can weigh in? I see: ?QUE EL
DOCTOR JUAN D?AZ DE ALCOCER DEL NUESTRO CONSEJO VUESTRO HERMANO... ? In
this immediate family there are many Diego?s and a few Pedro?s so I?m
not surprised that people easily get them confused and much of my research is
in secondary resources since Not everything is online and I?m in
California. According to Los Conversos y la Inquisicion Sevillana by Juan Gil
v. 3, page 206-211. Dr. Juan Diaz de Alcocer was the Brother of Diego Alcocer
(married to Blanca). Other brothers include 1. Fernando married to Gracia de
Prado ( I think the Prado Madrid fam) 2. Pedro Gonzalez de Alcocer
Coincidently, in vol. 5 p. 394 of this book series it lists Pedro de Toledo
married to Beatriz Fernandez, parents of Blanca Nunez is listed in reference
to Beatriz testamento in 1508 where she requests to be buried in San
Bartolom? ( juder?a Sevilla) and names her children. 1. Rodrigo de Toledo
2. Garcia de la Torre 3. Blanca Nunez , mujer del jurado Diego de Alcocer.
I?d be interested to know anything u would like to share on Pedro de
Toledo. My research so far encompasses the alcocers including Maria Ortiz
their mother but I?ve barely scratched the surface if Blanca. Best, Maven
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 18:58:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: pavendano@earthlink.net
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Guadalajara Entierros
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Hi Sus, This is great. Thank you for sharing. I found my many times gg
greatfather hernando Frias recorded. Best, Maven
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
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