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I've noticed that there are a few of you still posting to the automatic delivery of messages. I've got the system set up so they don't go through.

Introduction - Carlos Tapia González

Hi,

Comentarios

Comentario

1)- Rollo “Hrolfr” “Rolf” “Rollon” “Rollo the Viking” “Rollo the Walker” “Rollo Normandy” nació in 860 ad y murio entre 928 ad y 933 ad. Rollo es uno de los más importantes Vikingos en historia. Rolls es antepasado de muchas casas reales en Europa. Rollo y Poppa procreáron a Guillaume “William Longsword.”

2)- Guillaume, “William Longsword”, (Guillaume Longue-Épée en frances) Lord of the Normans. Guillaume nacio en 893, fue asasinado 17/December/942. El controlo Normandía desde 927 hasta su muerte. Guilluame y Sprota procreán a Richard I “the Fearless”.

3)- Richard I “the Fearless”, Duke of Normandy , Richard I y su padre crecieron los terrenos de Normandy. Richard I y Gunnora procrearon Richard II “The Good”

4)- Richard II “The Good”, Duke of Normandy, nacio 23/August/963 y murió 28 August 1026. Richard II procreáro a Robert I.

5)- Robert I “the Magnificent”, Duke of Normandy Robert I procrearo a Guillermo I.

6)- Guillermo I, El Conquistador, nació en 1028, reinó en Inglaterra desde el 1066 hasta el 1087, sepultado en Caen, Francia. Guillermo I, casó con Matilde de Flandes, hija de Balduino V, Conde de Flandes y procrearon nueve hijos, uno de ellos: Enrique I.

7)- Enrique I, nació en 1070 y murio 1035, sucedió su hermano como rey. (Su hermano murió en 1100 de un accidental y cuestionable flechazo en una cacería.) Enrique fue rey hasta 1035. Enrique I se casó el 6 de agosto de 1100, en Westminster, con Edith Matilde, princesa escocesa, Desciende de King Alfred the Great, nacida en el 1080, en Dunfermline. Hija de Malcolm III Canmore, rey de Escocia y Santa Margarita. Casi no dejaron a Edith Matilde casarse. Se convocó a un concilio especial de la iglesia para asegurarse de que Edith Matilde no había hecho votos como monja. Su testimonio enfático logró convencerlos que ella no había hecho votos como monja. Procrearon dos hijos, El Príncipe Guillermo y Matilde de Inglaterra.

Sin embargo, la corona pasó a un primo, otro descendiente colateral de Guillermo, El Conquistador, quien la retuvo por 19 años.

8)- Matilde de Inglaterra, la hija de Enrique I, nacida e en 1102, Londres, casó en segundas nupcias el 22/May/1127, con Godofredo V Plantagenet (1113-1151), Conde de Anjou. Procrearon tres hijos, uno de los cuales, se convertiría en Henry II, retomando de nuevo la línea sucesoral del trono de Inglaterra. Este sobresaliente monarca reinó desde 1154 hasta 1189.

9)- Henry II Plantagenet, King of England,(1133-1189), casó el 18/May/1152, con Eleanor of Aquitaine, hija de Guillermo X, Duque de Aquitania. Los hijos de esta pareja se mezclaron con todas las casas reales europeas de la época. Procrearon siete hijos, siendo uno de ellos Leonor de Plantagenet.

10)- Leonor de Plantagenet (1156-1214), la hija del Monarca inglés Enrique II, casó en 1177, en Burgos, España, con Alfonso VIII, Rey de Castilla (1155-1214). Alfonso VIII es hijo de Sancho III, Rey de Castilla y Blanca de Navarra. Procrearon seis hijos, entre ellos a Berenguela, Infanta de Castilla.

11)- Berenguela, Infanta de Castilla (1180-1246), casó en Dec/1197, en Valladolid, con Alfonso IX, Rey de León (1171-1230). Procrearon a Fernando III, (San Fernando)

12)- Fernando III, Rey de Castilla y León “San Fernando” (1201-1252), casó el 30/Nov/1219, en Burgos, Francia, con Beatriz (Elizabeth Von Hohenstaufen) de Suabia, quien a su vez era hija de Felipe de Suabia. Este monarca unificó para siempre Castilla y León. Además jugó un papel preponderante en la reconquista de España en manos de los moros. Procrearon tres hijos, entre ellos, quien mantendría la corona, Alfonso X, más conocido como Alfonso, El Sabio.

13)- Alfonso X, (El Sabio) nació el 23/Nov/1221, en Toledo y falleció en 1284, en Sevilla, España. Tuvo varios matrimonios, llevándose a cabo uno de ellos el 26 de noviembre de 1248, con Violante de Aragón, hija de Jaime I de Aragón y de Violante de Hungría, nació en 1236, en Zaragoza y falleció en 1301, en Roscesvalles, Navarra, España. Procrearon once hijos, siendo uno de estos Fernando de la Cerda, Infante de Castilla.

14)- Fernando de la Cerda, Infante de Castilla, nació el 23/Oct/1255, en Valladolid y falleció el 25/July/ 1275, en Ciudad Real. Casó el 30/Nov/1269, en Burgos, con Blanca Capeto de Francia (1252-1320), quien era hija del rey de Francia Luis IX. Tuvieron dos hijos, siendo uno de ellos Alfonso de la Cerda Infante de Castilla.

15)- Alfonso de la Cerda, Infante de Castilla (1270-1334), casó con Mahalda Brienne-EU y procrearon a Luís de la Cerda, Infante de Castilla.

16)- Luís de la Cerda, Infante de Castilla, nació en 1291, Francia. Casó con Leonor de Guzmán en el 1306, en Sevilla. Luís de la Cerda, falleció el 5/July/1348, en La Motte-Sur-Rhone, Francia. Procrearon a Juan de la Cerda.

17)- Juan de la Cerda(1327-1357), nació en Sevilla. Juan de la Cerda y Sol Martínez procrearon a Martín González de la Cerda. En el testamento de Leonor Guzman ella deja un dinero para Sol Martinez y escribe que ella esta embarazada por su hijo Juan de la Cerda.

18)- Martín González de la Cerda, casó en el 1366, con Violante Alvarez Pereyra, hija ilegítima de Alvaro Gonçalves Pereira, Obispo de Braga. Genealogos no están de acuerdo de la madre de Violante. Los que dicen que es hermana completa de Nuñez Álvarez Pereira dicen que es hija de Iría Gonçalves de Carvahal. Algunos genealogos dicen que es hija de Martinha Domínguez. Pero Violante fue conocida mas como hermana completa de Nuñez Alvarez Pereira, más conocido somo “San Nuño de Santa Maria” y como “el Protector de Portugal.” Martin y Violante procrearon a Mahalda de la Cerda.

19)- Mahalda de la Cerda, nació en ca. 1370, casó con Fernán Gutiérrez de Valverde y procrearon a María Gutiérrez de Valverde de la Cerda.

20)- María Gutiérrez de Valverde de la Cerda, murió 1464, casó con Gonzalo Porcallo Morán y procrearon a María Moran de la Cerda.

21)- Maria Moran de la Cerda, casó con Lorenzo Ulloa, Señor de Malgarrida, quien otorgó testamento y codicilo el 2/feb/1467. Lorenzo es hijo de Fernán Pérez de Ulloa Señor de Malgarrida y Gracia de Carvajal, vecinos de Cáceres, Fernán dio poder para testar a sus hijos el 11/Dec/1450. Lorenzo y Maria procrearon a Leonor de la Cerda.

22)- Leonor de la Cerda, casó con Balthazar Mendoza, hijo de Juan Pantoja y Elvira Alvarez de Mendoza. (Elvira es hija de Alfonso Duran Mendoza y Aldonza Vasquez de Sandoval. Filiación que consta en la carta de dote otorgada a favor de Juan Pantoja, el 3/Aug/1431) Balthazar y Leonor procrearon a Juan Pantoja.

23)- Juan Pantoja, conquistador, casó con Catalina Medina, hija de Domingo Medina. Juan y Catalina procrearon a Bernardina Mendoza.

24)- Bernardina Mendoza, casó con Gonzalo Nuñez de Sotomayor y procrearon a Juana Nuñez de Sotomayor.

25)- Juana Nuñez de Sotomayor, casó en 1573 con Diego Ochoa Garibay y procrearon a Francisca Ochoa de Garibay.

26)- Francisca Ochoa de Garibay casó con Juan De la Mora y procrearon a Fernando De la Mora Mendoza.

27)- Fernando De la Mora Mendoza, casó 27/Nov/1613 con Maria Zamora y procrearon a Juan De la Mora, Capitán.

28)- Juan De La Mora, Capitán, nació Jun/1656 casó con Leonor Gutiérrez de Hermosillo y procrearon a Juan de la Mora Mendoza.

29)- Juan Maria de la Mora De Mendoza y Margarita Martin del Campo y procrearon a Miguel De La Mora

30)- Miguel de la Mora se caso el 31/Jan/1752 In Jalostotitlan con Maria Petra de Hermosillo Y procrearon a Juan María De La Mora

31)- Juan Maria de la Mora y Juana Gertrudis Gallegos y procrearon a Maria Gregoria Gertrudis De la Mora

32)- Maria Gregoria Gertrudis De la Mora y Antonio Aceves Casillas y procrearon a José de la Merced Aceves De la Mora

34)- José Modesto Aceves Navarro y Maria Guadalupe Martin del Campo y procrearon a Maria Concepcion Aceves Martin del Campo

35)- Maria Concepcion Aceves Martin del Campo y Jose Gonzalez Martin y procrearon a Juan Jose Gonzalez Aceves

36)- Juan Jose Gonzalez Aceves y Maria Raquel Gonzalez Barba

37)-

38)- Carlos Tapia Gonzalez

Rick A.Ricci

Comentario

Welcome to nuestrosranchos Carlos,

I am a distant cousin of yours though many of the names that you mentioned that you are researching. The closest relationships are through the Barba and Martin. I also descend from Jose Toribio Muñoz de la Barba and Juana Gertrudis Villaseñor y Franco.

Here is your descent from King Henry II of England and Queen Eleanore of Aquitane (Queen of England and France)

1)Henry II King of England and Eleanor of Aquitane Queen of England
2 Eleonore de Inglaterra, princesa de inglaterra and Alfonso VIII rey de Castilla
3 Berenguela de Castilla and Alfonso IX rey de Leon
4 San Fernando III rey de Castilla and Beatriz de Suavia ( Elizabeth Hohenstaufen)
5 Alfonso X Fernandez and Yolanda Aragon
6 Fernando infante de Castilla and Blanca de Francia Capet
7 Alfonso de la Cerda and Mahalda de Brienne
8 Luis de la Cerda, infante de Castilla and Leonor Alfonso de Guzman
9 Juan de la Cerda and Sol Martinez
10 Martin Gonzalez de Cerda and Violante Alvarez Pereira
11 Mahalda de la Cerda y Fernan Gutierrez de Valverde
12 Mari Gutierrez de Valverde y de la Cerda and Gonzalo Porcallo De Morán
13 Beatriz Moran and Lorenzo Ulloa
14 Leonor Ulloa De la Cerda and Balthazar Mendoza Pantoja
15 Juan Pantoja Mendoza, conquistador and Catalina Medina (daughter of Domingo Medina)
16 Bernardina Hurtado de Mendoza Pantoja Ulloa (b. about 1533) and Gonzalo Nuñez de Sotomayor (Bernardina’s sister María was baptized 9/Feb/1541 - (Sagrario Metropolitano) - Ciudad de México,
17 Juana Nuñez de Sotomayor and Diego Ochoa Garibay
18 Francisca Ochoa Garibay and Juan de la Mora Mendoza
18 Fernando de la Mora y Mendoza and Maria de Zamora
19 Juan de la Mora nació /Jun/1656 Tlazazalca (Michoacán) and Leonor Gutierrez de Hermosillo.
20 Juan de la Mora H. De Mendoza and Margarita Martin del Campo
21 Miguel de la Mora se caso el 31/Jan/1752 In Jalostotitlan con Maria Petra de Hermosillo.
22 Juan Maria de la Mora and Juana Gertrudis Gallegos
23 Maria Gregoria Gertrudis de la Mora and Antonio Aceves Casillas
24 José de la Merced Aceves De la Mora and María Guadalupe Navarro Aceves
25 José Modesto Aceves Navarro and María Guadalupe Martin Del Campo
26 Maria Concepcion Aceves Martin del Campo and Jose Gonzalez Martin
27 Jose Alfonso Gonzalez Aceves and Maria Raquel Gonzalez Barba
28
29 Carlos Tapia Gonzalez

Rick A. Ricci
Source: my book Mygenes2000

Diego Vallin, husband of Francisca Ruis de Esparza

I have located the will of Diego Vallin, husband of Francisca Ruis de Esparza, dated October 1679.

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi there,

By any chance would you have any information on my ancestor Nicolas Ballin who married Victoria De Sotomayor who married in Aguascalientes in 1663?

Comentario

Hello everyone,

This is my first post to Nuestros believe it or not, but I have huge questions and hope you can help. My 9th great grandparents are Francisco de Albarado/Alvarado and Francisca Ruis de Esparsa who were married on 01 November 1675 in El Sagrario, Aguascalientes, Mexico. I have their marriage record which states no parents. I have tried to find the informational marriage record but am having trouble.

Does anyone know how Francisca fits into the Ruis y de Esparsa family? Also does anyone know Francisco Albarado's family?

Sincerely,

Norberto Menchaca Morales III

Comentario

Hi George,

The names read Diego Vallin son of Geronimo Vallin and Francisca de Herrera. There seems to be a connection with the grandmother and grandaughter in this case. Now I am wondering who are the parents of Geronimo Vallin and Francisca de Herrera. Would you happen to have more info on this Andres Sandoval (Sandoval Moscoso?).

Thanks,

Daniel

Comentario

George, Armando, Jaime, Daniel, and all

I'm still confused about this Vallin family, and have several questions and some additions:

Re marriage entry of Domingo Yriarte and Francisca de Esparza, in the margin she is called Isabel, in the body she is Francisca. Does this make a difference? Is it a mistake or is there another sister named Isabel?

Re children of Diego Vallin and Mariana de Sandi:
Could Dona Francisca de Herrera be the same person as Fransisca Valli, bap Sep 1639?
(Fran.ca. hija de Diego Valli and Maria de Sandi, in Bau Ags Ags 1616-1660, Image 85). Or this is a different family altogether?

Their son Bartolome was baptized 3 Oct 1656, in Ags.
(Bartolome, esp, hijo de Diego Balli y Mariana de Sandi, bap Oct 1656, Image 210).

Bartolome married Teresa Nunes; their son Visente Anastasio was baptized in Aguas also. (Visente Anastacio, esp, hl de Bartolome Valli y Teresa Nunes, bap 13 Mar 1685, Ags, 1684-1691, Image 24).

Diego Vallin and Francisca de Esparza's daughter, Petra, was born about 1666.
Petra, esp, 7 years old, hija lexitima de Diego Vallin y Francisca Ruis Esparsa, died in Ags, 28 May 1673 (Ags, Sag, Def, 1620-1701, Image 129)

Gloria Delgado

Comentario

This family is somewhat complex.

First of all, the name can be spelled Vallin or Ballin, as well as Valli or Balli.

There are possibly two distinct Vallin families, that where Diego s/o Geronimo is the founder, and that of Nicolas Vallin. I do not know if Diego and Nicolas are related.

Diego Vallin had two wives (Maria de Sandi and Francisca de Esparza), and Francisca de Esparza had two husbands (Domingo de Iriarte and Diego Vallin; to complicate thing further, Domingo had another wife, Maria de Anso y Telles).

In the marginal entry for the Domingo de Iriarte marriage, I think "Ysabel" is an error, and the body of the record is correct. There is no matrimonial investigation to corroborate this, but this is the only instance of the name "Ysabel" that I am aware of in this family.

Francisca de Esparza, d/o Salvador (we know this from more than one source), was baptized in 10 Feb 1625, so she can't be the Francisca baptized in 1639, this is just too much of a time difference.

Teresa Nunes is also known as Teresa Vasquez.

I'm in the process putting together all that I've found on these families, but it is not yet complete.

Rose Hardy, in her book on the San Gabriel Families, has a fair amount of information on Nicolas Vallin and his descendants.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Comentario

Hi George,

Now my interest has really been sparked. As you may know there has been much speculation about the Vallín family in the past. From my understanding all the Vallín descend from Lic. Juan Bautista de Vallín who married María de Estrada on 25 Feb 1601 in Guadalajara. He was the son of Pierre or Pedro Vallín and Catalina del Valle. María de Estrada was daughter of Diego López de la Cruz and Bernardina de Estrada. There was a genealogist in Lagos de Moreno, who stated the Vallín are somehow tied with a Bailey family somewhere near Alasia, France or Germany. This is where I refuse to believe until I see documented proof, Juan Bautista Vallín son of Juan Bautista or Jean Baptiste Vailey or Bailey of Frankfurt, Germany and Catalina Rodríguez. I never took this into consideration, because I never found proof of this. Many people try to connect certain lines to those of French or German people. Even though, there are a handful of French families that made a name for themselves in Mexico, not too many existed around this time period.

Forgive me if I repeat this information or if you have it already, but several months ago I found researching in the Guadalajara record the baptisms of several of the early Vallín all children of Juan Bautista Vallín and María de Estrada. It appears this family is very well connected in Mexico City and Guadalajara, so some movement occurred between the two cities.

María López de la Cruz b. 8 Sep 1609 in Guadalajara who married Lázaro Martín del Campo.

Francisca de Vallín b. 20 Nov 1617 in Asunción, Ciudad de México who married Salvador Ruiz de Esparza, hijo.

Bernardina de Vallín b. 16 Dec 1624 in Asunción.

Juan de Vallín b. 3 Nov 1604 in Guadalajara

Catalina de Vallín b. 3 Mar 1602 in Guadalajara

Ana de Vallín b. 10 May 1627 in Asunción.

Mariana de Vallín b. 4 Sep 1607 in Guadalajara.

We do know however Pedro de Vallín or Pierre Vallín and Catalina del Valle did in fact exist because they baptize a daughter in Asunción, Mexico City.

Francisca de Vallín b. 9 Nov 1592 who later marries in the same parish on 18 Feb 1629 to Diego García Caballero.

Could you please elaborate on the Nicolás Vallín and his family, I am not sure which Nicolás you are referring to. Also, excuse my ignorance, but I cannot find a Gerónimo Vallín as father of Diego. I have Diego married to María de Sandi and Francisca Ruiz de Esparza as son of that previously stated Lic. Juan Bautista Vallín and María de Estrada.

I found an error in the genealogy I have for these Francisca Ruiz de Esparza. I agree with you about Francisca Ruiz de Esparza as daughter of Salvador Ruiz de Esparza and María de Biedma who married Domingo de Yriarye and Diego de Vallín. I also had the same Francisca married a third time to Nicolás Durán Duque of Nochistlán married on 5 Mar 1669 in Nochistlán. I later calculated it was highly unlikely due to the history and time period of her producing children in her sixties. My question is which Francisca Ruiz de Esparza married to Nicolás Durán. Who was she the daughter of?

As you may know Nicolás Durán and Francisca Ruiz de Esparza instituted the Durán-Ruiz de Esparza family of Nochistlán. This surname was very well used up until the early XIX century. Their descedentants quickly married into families such as Cervantes-Negrete, Castanedo y Ceballos, Xáuregui, Huerta, González de Ruvalcaba, Ruiz de Esparza, Ramírez-Rosales, González Bermejo and Flores Alatorre. I descend through the Flores Alatorre-Durán Ruiz de Esparza connection.

I have done tremendous research on the Tellez-Rivera and Anso families, whom I also descend of. There is a mayorazgo that is connected with them and have ties to Zacatecas, Mexico and conquistadores.

Daniel Méndez Camino
Santa Clara, California

Comentario

Hello everyone, I know this is an old post, but were any of you able to find out who Francisca Ruiz de Esparza's parents were. I hit a wall on this one.

I am referring to the one married to Nicolas Duran. I know she cannot be the one mentioned born in 1625, because Francisca was having children up to 1684 (Ysabel Duran 03/30/1684-Nochistlan) with her husband Nicolas Duran. She would have been in her sixties and that does not add up.

I found her "defuncion" record 9/01/1692 Nochistlan, and her marriage record from Aguascalientes on 3/05/1669. Neither one mentions parents name.

If anyone has a clue of her parents please let me know.

Thank You
Ruben Rojas

Comentario

Ruben

I have not been able to identify her parents. There is no matrimonial information for her that I have seen.

Perhaps there is a dispensation that names her: a check of Claudia's Guadalajara Dispensations may be fruitful where she might be named as an ancestor of the bride or groom.

George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA

Comentario

Hola a todos:

Pedro Balli fue además de impresor intérprete de la lengua francesa, lo que ha hacho presumir su origen francés, pero nació en Salamanca España hijo de Juan Bautista Balli y Catalina Rodríguez, pasó a Nueva España por orden de 15 de julio de 1569, dejó cinco hijos: Jerónimo que era impresor heredó la imprenta pero vivió poco tiempo, tres hijas que quedaron bajo el resguardo del otro hijo: el Licenciado Juan Bautista Balli que escribió un memorial de su familia. Dicho Juan Bautista es el que pasó a Nueva Galicia. Una de las fuentes es la siguiente:

http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/obra-visor/historia-de-la-imprenta-en-l…

Hay otro libro sobre la imprenta en México que refiere las desventuras de la viuda de Pedro, Catalina del Valle y de su hijo Jerónimo cuyos datos trataré de localizar. Un tercer libro que se encuentra en versión PDF sobre los herederos de ésta familia es el siguiente:

http://132.248.9.195/ptd2009/febrero/0639917/0639917_A4.pdf

Saludos

Marcelina

Comentario

Pedro Vailli estudio en Salamanca y también en Strasbourg. Esa parte de Francia ha sido parte de Alemania y Pedro tiene raíces de los dos países. Por ahora no voy a discutir donde nació Pedro, pero en su joventud le decían Pierre y Pietro. El hablaba cinco idiomas y tiene antepasados de Francia, Alemania, Italia, y España.

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Gloria,

There are clues as to whether or not the name Isabel was a mistake based on
dates of marriages and baptisms of the children, the dispensas, and the will
of Diego Vallín.

1. Francisca married Diego Vallin at an advanced age of 42 years. Meaning
she most likely married previously and that would have been to Domingo de
Iriarte.
2. The dispensa tells us Juana was a daughter of Francisca and granddaughter
of Salvador Ruiz de Esparza.
3. The matrimonial investigation of Juana states she was 18 in 1678 meaning
her birth year was about 1660. Three years before Nicolás Vallín is reported
to have been born and four years before Diego Vallín and Francisca married.
4. Juana is not reported as a living child in the will of Diego Vallín,
which was written while she was alive. Therefore, her father would have been
from Francisca's first marriage or out of wedlock.
5. In the marriage entry of Diego Vallin and Francisca Ruiz de Esparza it is
stated "no estan velados" Victoriano Navarro has informed us they did not do
this for second marriages.
6. As George has stated Isabel is not found in any other document.

Armando

On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:40 AM, wrote:

> George, Armando, Jaime, Daniel, and all
> I'm still confused about this Vallin family, and have several questions and
> some additions:
>
> Re marriage entry of Domingo Yriarte and Francisca de Esparza, in the
> margin she is called Isabel, in the body she is Francisca. Does this make a
> difference? Is it a mistake or is there another sister named Isabel?
>
> Diego Vallin and Francisca de Esparza's daughter, Petra, was born about
> 1666.
> Petra, esp, 7 years old, hija lexitima de Diego Vallin y Francisca Ruis
> Esparsa, died in Ags, 28 May 1673 (Ags, Sag, Def, 1620-1701, Image 129)
>
> Gloria Delgado
>
>

Comentario

Hi George,
This is a huge find for all of us. I have not had too much time to investigate all the testamentos I would like, but every now and then information such as this creates more and more curiosity. Especially, this case with all these Francisca Ruiz de Esparza. One thing is for sure. The daughter of Salvador ruiz de Esparza and Maria de Vielma, Francisca Ruiz de Esparza married Diego Vallin.
Diego Vallin was son of Jeronimo Vallin and Francisca de Herrera, surely a relative of the other Herrera around there, not sure how. He married Mariana Carrillo de Sandi daughter of Capt. Juan Marin de Penalosa and Da. Maria Carrillo de Sandi.
Their kids Da. Drancisca de Herrera who married Andres Vasquez de Sandoval y Moscoso and Bartolome Vallin. Then he marries Francisca ruiz de Esparza and has two more kids Nicolas Vallin and the latter Antonia de Esparza.
I still have issues with the other Francisca de Esparza who married Domingo de Yriarte.
The Vallin genealogy still needs to be further and professionally researched by true genealogist. I have seen to many errors, etc. Although Vallin is of French origin and seems to spead into Spain and England around the XVI century.
Let's go to work,
Daniel Mendez Camino

Comentario

Daniel, Jaime and George,

It is more than likely that the two Francisca's are the same, meaning there
is no "other" Francisca. In the marriage entry of Francisca de Esparza to
Domingo de Iriarte it states she is the daughter of Salvador de Esparza and
Maria de Vielma.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-52398-90?cc=1410092&…
that we have the will of Diego Vallin we know that his wife Francisca
was also the daughter of Salvador de Esparza and Maria de Vielma. We only
know of one daughter of Salvador de Esparza named Francisca. Since Juana de
Esparza, for whom this part of the investigation is really about, isn't
named in the will of Diego Vallín we can assume she was from the first
marriage of Francisca. We also know that Francisca, the daughter of Salvador
de Esparza, was baptized 16 February 1625 meaning she was 42 years old when
she married Diego Vallín on 24 February 1667 and is uncommon for a woman to
remain single until that age. Therefore, she most likely had been married
previously and that brings us back to the marriage of Domingo de Iriarte and
Francisca de Esparza on 8 March 1649 when she would have been 24. The normal
age for a woman to marry. Since the dispensa states Juana de Esparza was a
granddaughter of Juana de Esparza and daughter of Francisca de Esparza that
only leaves Domingo de Iriarte to be the father of Juana based on all of the
documents and dates that we have available.

Saludos
Armando

On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 3:01 AM, Daniel Mendez de Torres <
mendezdetorres@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Hi George,
> This is a huge find for all of us. I have not had too much time to
> investigate all the testamentos I would like, but every now and then
> information such as this creates more and more curiosity. Especially, this
> case with all these Francisca Ruiz de Esparza. One thing is for sure. The
> daughter of Salvador ruiz de Esparza and Maria de Vielma, Francisca Ruiz de
> Esparza married Diego Vallin.
> Diego Vallin was son of Jeronimo Vallin and Francisca de Herrera, surely a
> relative of the other Herrera around there, not sure how. He married Mariana
> Carrillo de Sandi daughter of Capt. Juan Marin de Penalosa and Da. Maria
> Carrillo de Sandi.
> Their kids Da. Drancisca de Herrera who married Andres Vasquez de Sandoval
> y Moscoso and Bartolome Vallin. Then he marries Francisca ruiz de Esparza
> and has two more kids Nicolas Vallin and the latter Antonia de Esparza.
> I still have issues with the other Francisca de Esparza who married Domingo
> de Yriarte.
> The Vallin genealogy still needs to be further and professionally
> researched by true genealogist. I have seen to many errors, etc. Although
> Vallin is of French origin and seems to spead into Spain and England around
> the XVI century.
> Let's go to work,
> Daniel Mendez Camino

Comentario

Daniel,
From your last communication it appears that you think that Francisca Ruiz Esparza married to Diego Vallin is not the same person as the Francisca married to Domingo de Iriarte. Yet, in the marriage of Francisca to Domingo, 8 march 1649, Aguascalientes, her parents are listed as "Salbador de Esparsa y Maria de Bielma", the same parents you are giving for the Francisca married to Diego Vallin. I am confused.

Jaime Alvarado

Jalpa, Zacatecas

Is Villita de San Jose the same as La Villita (Guadalupe Victoria)and if not where is Villita de San Jose located.thanks

Question about description of burial in Mexico

I have a direct ancestor who died in Aguascalientes in 1788. Her burial record says that she received "sepultura ecclca.

Comentarios

Comentario

Hello! It says "cruz baja". Depending on how much money someone paid for a burial it could have "cruz alta", apparently quite expensive and for people who had money and a good social status, which was a ceremony with all due respect and mournful symbols. Cruz baja was the standard burial (I suppose "en fábrica de dos pesos" would mean that was the price they paid), while "de limosna" was a burial made with no charges due to the lack of resources the family of the deceased had. I hope this helps!

Comentario

Hi!! Well I am currently having a lot of trouble with my family in Michoacán; they moved a lot so it's been hard keeping track of them, and the only thing I know for sure is about their apparent social position due to these kind of clues, such as the "Don" and "Doña". I came across this very same thing in the burial of many of them: "cruz alta", "todas las insignias", "doble solemne" and "enterrado en tramo principal", so I thought it would pay off to dig deeper in that issue, as well as how the colonial society worked.

This (https://www.cultura.gob.mx/turismocultural/cuadernos/pdf16/articulo11.p…) is an article on death in Mexico, which talks a bit about this in page 10. I also found this (http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2003h2/msg00168.html) which talks about the issue.

Family search has a small say on the topic (https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/es/Entierro_de_cruz_alta,_de_cruz_baj…) in Venezuela, and this (https://www.redalyc.org/jatsRepo/127/12761653001/html/index.html) is an article about practices in Argentina. Not quite the same, but being latin america and catholic church we can assume there must be at least some simmilarities.

I also found out that the elements sometimes mentioned in the registries (such as "incensario" and "capa") are mourning elements still used in Semana Santa (idk if you translate if to Holy Week?) along with the color purple. I guess it talks a lot about the real importance that high class people had as opposed to the rest of the population, and how money really could afford the highest honors. It's a topic that could potentially give a lot of depth to our investigations, I think :)

Translation Needed

I would like for someone who understands Spanish better than I do to look at a document and tell me what it is about.

Comentarios

Comentario

Helllo! Well, it's a little confusing, but what I understand... is that Juan de Herrera is asking Antonio Díaz to pay 20 horses that he promised because they had an arrangement made after Antonio Díaz jr. stole his daughter Barbara promising to marry her, but then he didn't do it.

Comentario

To labananilla: Thanks for translating. That is rather what I thought, too, but it is a little confusing. I wonder what became of Barbara? I hope she married someone who appreciated her! :-) --Beverly

Garcia de Monroy y Pizarro

Hello Cousins, I realize this is an old post but I wanted to find out if anyone has additional information about a specific family in Tequila mentioned here on page 5 of this post: http://www.nuestros

Comentarios

Comentario

Thanks Manny for those two links. I did research the images on familysearch and sourced them. I am still unsure why Mariana uses de León on some of her children's baptism and confirmation records.

Here are some of the links where she uses de León:

Right Page Top
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-QB9F-7T?i=18&wc=3JF8-Z…

Right page Bottom
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-QB9X-BT?i=17&wc=3JF8-Z…

Right Page Middle
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-QB9N-7N?i=14&wc=3JF8-Z…

Left Page
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-QS9T-SL?i=166&wc=3JX1-…

Thanks Again
Ruben R

Comentario

Hello Tocayo.

García de Monroy Pizarro is the "tronco" on this dispensa matrimonial. (He is not listed in the dispensa).

Francisco de Monroy Pizarro and Leonor de la Cueva were father-only siblings. See pretensa's declaration "... por ser ambos Pretensos Nietos de dos hermanos legitimos, aunque solo de parte Paterna ...".

Francisco de Monroy Pizarro is the son of Luisa de León and Leonor de la Cueva is the daughter of María de la Cueva.

Comentario

I apologize for my last posting as the indents incorrectly shifted to the left after pasting from WordDoc. A bit difficult to follow and will answer any questions. Also, I have the links to most the information above if needed.

Thanks
Ruben R

surname Abbreviation Fernando Martinez Sotoma.

What is the Abbreviation ? is this Sotomayor ?
The name appears as Fernando Martinez Sotoma. with a small 'r' above the " a."

Comentarios

Comentario

Fernando Martínez de Sotomayor was the son of Antonio Martínez de Sotomayor and María Valenzuela according to his dispensa - https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18413-9191-35?cc=1874591&wc=…

Fernando's brother, Joseph Antonio, also had a dispensa which mentions in more detail their ancestors -
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18410-40916-67?cc=1874591

Antonio Martínez de Sotomayor was the son of Andrés Martín de Sotomayor y González who married Beatriz de Mayorga 13 June 1666 in Aguascalientes. She was the daughter of Alvaro Marín de Peñaloza and Isabel de Mayorga
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12446-30193-28?cc=1502404&…

Andrés Martín de Sotomayor y González was the son of Andrés Martín de Sotomayor and María González de Islas y Moctezuma.

Andrés Martín de Sotomayor was the son of Andrés Martín Camacho and María de las Ruelas o Sotomayor.

Alvaro Marín de Peñaloza was the son of Juan Marín de Peñaloza and María de Sandi.

María de Sandi was the daughter of Álvaro Carrillo and María Álvarez de Sandi

Alvaro Marín de Peñaloza and Isabel de Mayorga had a daughter named Isabel de Mayorga that married Gabriel López de Nava y González de Ruvalcaba 18 may 1657 in Aguascalientes.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11824-50419-18?cc=1410092

Gabriel López and Isabel de Mayorga had Gabriel López who married Nicolasa Petronila Valenzuela and they had Isabel Rosaura López the wife of Joseph Miguel Romo de Vivar and, in a second marriage, of Joseph Antonio Martínez de Sotomayor y Valenzuela.

That same Isabel Rosaura López was the mother of Isabel Gertrudis Romo de Vivar, the wife of Fernando Martinez de Sotomayor y Valenzuela.

Armando

Comentario

Hello, Armando. I have been stuck on exactly the marriage you mention between Joseph Miguel Romo de Vivar and Isabel Rosaura Lopez. I would like to know if you know who the parents of Joseph Miguel were, and if you have further ancestors on him. I am trying to fill in my family tree as far back as possible through the Romo de Vivar line at the moment. The following is a link to specify who exactly I'm referring to, in case there are more instances of these names. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NRPM-Y5W?from=lynx1UIV8&tre…

Comentario

I would think it is indeed Sotomayor, in these documents abbreviations usually the last letter or letters are written as superscript.
Regards,
Victoriano Navarro

Juana Cabral (Jerez)

Hola,

Comentarios

Comentario

Aunque su pregunta ya tiene tiempo aqui, esta tarde la encontre mientras exploro lo que hay sobre la familia Cabral de Jerez. Por mi parte he realizado muchas búsquedas sobre Cabral, con muy buenos resultados a veces y otras no tanto. Una de las dificultades estriba en los libros perdidos o dañados que lamentablemente no son pocos en Jerez. Pero no todo está perdido. Por mi parte no he encontrado ningún registro fehaciente respecto de una Juana Cabral hija de Domingo Cabral y Ana Catalina Pinedo Caldera. Pero eso no significa que no haya tenido una hija con ese nombre. De hecho es muy probable e incluso se trate de su hija mayor. Hay una nota muy reveladora en la página 13 del documento que menciono al final, donde se lee: Antonio, hijo de Matías Lozano y Juana Cabral. Esta anotación está en las primeras páginas del registro de bautizos y entierros que parece ser el más antiguo que se conserva en Jerez y que parece ser del año 1648. Las primeras páginas muestran un deterioro notable y por lo tanto es notable que a pesar de eso aún se puedan leer. Estas primeras páginas son una especie de índice del contenido del libro, en el que luego podemos comprobar dichos registros que el índice solo menciona. En esas primeras páginas hay muchas menciones a Domingo Cabral y su esposa, a veces referida como Ana Caldera, Ana Pinedo, Catalina Caldera o Catalina Pinedo, cosas de la época y en este caso sabemos, gracias sobre todo a la investigación de Salvador Cabral Valdez, que se trata de Ana Catalina Pinedo Caldera. Por la ubicación de la nota tiendo a pensar que se trata de una hija mayor, pues ahi está registrando a su hijo Antonio Lozano Cabral. Obviamente el esposo de esta Juana Cabral no es Fabían de Avila. Sea porque este último haya sido su segundo esposo o incluso porque se trate de otra Juana Cabral y no de la que usted pregunta. En otra linea tambien se lee: ...hija de Domingo Cabral... pero el nombre es ilegible pues está en un segmento de la hoja roto, en otra lineas claramente se mencionan otros hijos de Domingo: Francisca, Cristóbal, Juan y Lorenzo. Por otra parte es interesante notar que en el Padrón de Jerez de 1649, cuando se llega al registro de la Familia de Domingo Cabral y Catalina Caldera solo se mencionan 8 hijos de ellos, que ya es algo, pero entre ellos no hay ninguna Juana, en cambio aparece Ana, viviendo con su esposo Joseph Sánchez y luego solo aparecen dos hijas más, doncellas: Francisca e Isabel, y 5 hijos menores. Pero es claro que Domingo pudo muy bien tener una hija Juana, casada con Matías Lozano y uno de sus hijos fue Antonio Lozano Cabral y además otra hija, cuyo nombre es ilegible.

Saludo cordial
Jesus Cabral.

Este enlace la lleva a la página 11 de dicho documento en family search (abre en pestaña nueva):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939N-GHSZ-X8?i=10&cc=1804458

Comentario

Hola Jesus,

Muchas gracias por la informacion y la liga para el documento. A mi me parece que estas paginas son confirmaciones. Pude ver que domingo cabral fue padrino de varios ninos. Voy a revisar con detenimiento las confirmaciones.
Por mi parte estoy casi segura que Juana Cabral era hija de Domingo Cabral; pero hasta que tenga alguna fuente feaciente no puedo establecer la conexion. Agradezco sinceramente la liga y seguimos en contacto.
Saludos cordiales desde Seattle

susana Leniski

Comentario

Es muy interesante Susana. También es probable, y yo diría muy probable, que Juana Cabral no sea hija de Domingo Cabral sino hermana de Domingo Cabral. Esto lo considero probable porque en esos registros de 1649 donde se menciona al menos dos veces a Juana Cabral registrando a dos hijos, no me parece que por las edades sea hija de Domingo. Por otro lado no es muy probable que Domingo no haya tenido hermanos y hermanas. Según la investigación de Salvador Cabral Domingo es hijo de un gallego, gambusino, de nombre Juan Cabral Rodríguez quien llegó a la región en 1588 aproximadamente y se casó con una mujer nativa. Por otra parte hay un padrón de Tlaltenango de 1650 donde se registra el rancho de Cristóbal Cabral, con familia de cuatro miembros. Me parece que este Cristóbal Cabral es también hermano de Domingo, quien por su parte tuvo tambien un hijo de nombre Cristóbal, pero en ese año de 1650 Cristobal su hijo tenía 4 o 5 años de edad. Por otro lado es probable que su Juana Cabral sea tambien nieta de Domingo y si encuentro algo más lo comentaré aqui mismo. Lo que me parece claro es que todos los Cabral de la región tienen relación con Domingo, sea directa o a traves de algun hermano o hermana de él. Saludos.

Comentario

...Por otra parte, según la investigación de Salvador Cabral Valdez, efectivamente Domingo tuvo una hija Juana, casada con Fabián de Avila y cuyo hijo fue Tomás de Avila Cabral, quien casó con Catalina Carlos de Godoy y tuvieron bastantes hijos. A reserva de encontrar otra información se puede asumir que Juana fue efectivamente hija de Domingo.

Puede ver el árbol elaborado por Salvador Cabral en geneanet: árbol Domingo Cabral Es un buen árbol aunque de ninguna manera está completo pues faltan algunos hijos de Domiingo, pero es quizá el más completo disponible.

Delgadillo Ravenscroft, Jeanette (Teocaltiche, JAL)

Welcome to nuestrosranchos Jeanette,

Yrineo Delgadillo is the son of Francisco Delgadillo and Florentina Sánchez

Comentarios

Comentario

In an another record Yrineo Delgadillos mother is given as Paula Sanchez instead of Florentina Sanchez.

In their marriage record and a baptism of a grandchild, yrieno’s mother is gIben as Paula Sanchez. In the marriage record and her baptismal Feliciana’s mother is given as María Presentacion Rodríguez instead of María Encarnacion. Maria Encarnacion was the name in one grandchild’s record.

Francisco Delgadillo is the son of Eleuterio Delgadillo and Maria Delgadillo

Paula is the daughter of Fernando Sanchez and Eusebia Alvarado

Fernando Sanchez is the son of Rafael Sanchez and Jacinta Alvarado

Maria Eusebia Alvarado is the daughter of Antonio Alvarado and Maria Rodriguez

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JC8T-L3B

Rick A. Ricci

About Pasajeros that traveled by ship to Nueva Espana (Mexico)

I would like to give tips to people out there that are interested in looking up people or ancestors that traveled by ship from Spain to Nueva Espana (Mexico).

Comentarios

Diego Zermeño

De Diego Zermeño, no habia oido hablar de el, el caso es de que hay un Domingo Vasquez Zermeño que fue bautizado 2 May 1653, en Lagos de Moreno,  lo que puede encajar en el periodo de tiempo que

Comentarios

Comentario

Hemos visto Sebastián Vasquez casado con “Luisa” con diferentes apellidos. Tenemos a Luisa Villaseñor, Luisa Maciel, y Luisa Liebano. Mi pregunta es si esta “Luisa”Es la misma persona? En otra acta de Anna Vasquez ella lleva el apellido de “Vasquez De Lara” entonces sabemos que estamos hablando de los Vasquez De Lara.

En la dispensa de matrimonio de Domingo Ortiz de Bracamonte y Barbara Infante se descubre que son primos terceros porque los dos son descendientes de Sebastián Vasquez y Luisa Villaseñor.

1)Sebastian Vasquez y Luisa Villaseñor son padres de
2a)- Lorenzo Vasquez y
2b)- Juan Vasquez
=========================================================
La línea del primer hermano Lorenzo
2a)- Lorenzo Vasquez y Micaela Ortis son padres de
3a)- Anna Vasquez De Lara que se casó con José Ortis (Hortiz) Bracamonte y ellos procrearon a
4a)- Marcos Ortiz (Hortis) Bracamonte. El se casó con Maria Antonia Gonzalez Y procrearon a
5a)- Domingo Ortiz Bracamonte quien se casó Con su prima tercera Barbara Infante

===========================================================

La segunda línea es la descendencia de Juan Vasquez hasta la novia
2b)- Juan Vasquez se casó con Maria Garcia y ellos procrearon a
3b)- Josefa Vasquez y ella se caso con José Sanchez y ellos procrearon a
4b)- Juana Sánchez y ella se casó con Diego Ynfante y ellos procrearon a
5b)- Barbara Infante y ella se casó con su primo tercero Domingo Ortiz Bracamonte

La acta está aquí:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-6V83-7?i=473&wc=125127…

Gracias,
Ricardo A. Ricci

Comentario

Del testamento de Angelina García, esposa en segundas nupcias con Juan de Arrona, se ve claramente que Ana García esposa de Martín Vázquez Zermeño no era hija de Juan de Arrona, sino de Martín García, primer esposo de Angelina.

Comentario

Hola Ricardo, el testamento fue publicado por Lina Mercedes Cruz Lira y por Eloy de la Cruz Ruvalva en "Nuestras Raíces" del Archivo Histórico de Lagos de Moreno número 79. Tengo fotos de ese artículo y con gusto te los pasaría por mail.
Pero la forma más fácil de que lo obtengas es en esta misma discusión sobre "Diego Zermeño", porque Edgar Olguín nos hizo el favor de transcribirlo.

Avísame cualquier cosa. Saludos, Daniel.

Comentario

Esta dispensa confirma la cuestion de Ana Gomez de Portugal como hija de Diego Gomez de Portugal y Maria Garcia de Arrona al ser Ana hermana de Catalina Lopez de Portugal

"Lagos de Moreno, Jal. Abril 26 de 1703. Exp. 79.- Dispensa de tercero grado de consanguinidad.- Don Esteban de Anda Altamirano, español de 40 años de edad originario y vecino de esta Villa de Santa Maria de los Lagos, viudo de Josefa Moreno de Ortega, hijo legitimo del Cap. Pedro de Anda Altamirano y de Doña Catalina Saenz de Vidaurre, difuntos; con Doña Ines de Pedroza Marmolejo, vecina de la feligresia de la Villa de San Felipe, Obispado de Michoacan, hija legitima del Cap. Juan de Pedroza Marmolejo y de Doña Geronima de Hierro, difuntos. Declaración del pretenso: Porque Catarina Lopez de Portugal y Ana de Portugal fueron hermanas, y la dicha Catarina Lopez de Portugal, tuvo por su hijo al Cap. Pedro de Anda Altamirano, y la dicha Ana de Portugal, al Cap. Juan de Pedraza Marmolejo, y el dicho Cap. Pedro de Anda Altamirano, me tuvo por su hijo, y el dicho Juan de Pedraza Marmolejo, tuvo por su hija a la pretensa. Y las causas que me motivan a solicitar dicho matrimonio son el de hallarme con cinco hijas doncellas y dos hijos pequeños."

Miguel Beltran

Comentario

 
Hola Miguel, Juan Vasquez Zermeño, nacio por lo menos el año de 1610, los Vasquez Lara que se mencionan en la Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara son de los años aprox 1660. Lo que significa para mi que estos Vasques Lara, son los nietos de Juan Vasquez Zermeño, probablemente por la linea de Martin Vasquez Zermeño hijo de Juan Vasquez y Teresa de Anda., y este Martin nieto del mencionado Martin. Y es que repetidamente se mencionan a Cristobal, Beatriz,Felipe, Felix, Elvira Gil, aveces como Vasquez Lara,  y Vasquez Zermeño. A no ser que sea nombres por otra linea auque sea la misma familia. Que facilmente te confundes, no se si tienes axceso al libro de La Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara, por lo proto te mando algo que tal vez te ayude.
 
Lagos de Moreno. Jal. Abril 11 de 1703.- Dispensa de cuarto con terecero grado de consanguinidad.- Joseph Guerra Valadez y Gallardo, español de 24 años de edad. originario y vecino de esta Villa de Santa Maria de los Lagos, hijo legitimo de Alonso Guerra Valadez, ya difunto y de Doña Ines Gallardo; con Doña Ana Vasquez Zermeño, española de 16 años de edad, originaria y vecina de esta villa, hija legitima del Cap. Martin Vasquez Zermeño y de Doña Maria Rodriguez Portugal, vecinos de esta Villa. Declaración del pretenso: Porque Catarina Lopez de Nava y Juana Ruiz de Nava, fueron hermanas, y la dicha Catarina, tuvo por hijo a Alonso Guerra Valadez, y la dicha Juana, tuvo por hija a Teresa de Anda Altamiranho, y el dicho Alonso Guerra me tuvo por hijo y la dicha Teresa de Anda Altamirano, tuvo por hijo al Capitan Martin Zermeño, y dicho Cap. tiene por hija a la dicha Doña Ana Vasquez Zermeño. 11 fojas.
 
Celestino.
 
 

Comentario

Segun lo que tengo en mis notas,los descendientes de Martin Vazquez de Zermeño y Ana Garcia de Arrona usaron apellidos como:
-Vazquez de Zermeño
-De Zermeño
-Vazquez de Lara
-Vazquez de Anda
-Garcia de Miranda
-Gil de Lara

La descendencia que tengo registrada de los hijos varones sería mas o menos así

1- MARTIN VAZQUEZ DE ZERMEÑO (Y GIL DE LARA?)
sp: ANA GARCIA DE ARRONA O MIRANDA (m.1598)
---------------------------------------------

-2. JUAN VAZQUEZ DE ZERMEÑO (b.1615)
- sp: THERESA DE ANDA ALTAMIRANO Y RUIZ DE NAVA (m.1638;d.1683)
--- 3. MARTIN DE ZERMEÑO Y DE ANDA ALTAMIRANO (b.1646)
--- sp: MARIA RODRIGUEZ DE PORTUGAL (m.1681)
----- 4. JOSEPH MARCOS DE ZERMEÑO Y RODRIGUEZ DE PORUGAL
----- sp: MARIA ENCARNACION GUERRA FLORES (m.1719)
----- 4. ANA VAZQUES DE ZERMEÑO Y RODRIGUEZ DE PORTUGAL
----- sp: JOSEPH GUERRA VALADEZ Y GALLARDO (m.1703)
----- 4. FRANCISCO VAZQUEZ DE ZERMEÑO Y RODRIGUEZ DE PORTUGAL (c.1689)
----- 4. TERESA VAZQUEZ DE ZERMEÑO y RODRIGUEZ DE PORTUGAL(c.1700)
----- 4. MANUEL VAZQUEZ DE ZERMEÑO Y RODRIGUEZ DE PORTUGAL
----- sp: MARIA DE SAN JOSEPH GUERRA VALADEZ (m.1715)
----- 4. JUAN ZERMEÑO Y RODRIGUEZ DE PORTUGAL (c.1684)
----- 4. MARTIN ZERMEÑO RODRIGUEZ (c.1686)
----- 4. FRANCISCO ZERMEÑO Y RODRIGUEZ DE PORTUGAL(c. 1682)
--- 3. DOMINGO ZERMEÑO DE ANDA
--- sp: JUANA RAFAELA VAZQUEZ
----- 4. CATARINA ZERMEÑO DE ANDA
----- sp: ANDRES DE VILLALOBOS (m.1711)
----- 4. MARIA ZERMEÑO (c.1723)
----- sp: SALVADOR DE VILLALOBOS
----- 4. JUAN JACINTO ZERMEÑO
----- 4. MANUEL VENTURA ZERMEÑO VAZQUEZ (c.1721)
--- 3. JUAN VAZQUEZ DE ZERMEÑO (b.1648)
--- 3. ANA VAZQUES DE ZERMEÑO Y ALTAMIRANO
--- 3. ANTONIO VAZQUEZ DE ZERMEÑO (c.1655)
--- sp: MARIA DE ISASSI
--- 3. BEATRIZ VAZQUEZ DE ANDA (d.1743)
--- 3. HIPOLITO DE ZERMEÑO Y DE ANDA

-2. CRISTOBAL VASQUES DE LARA (b.1609)
- sp: MARIA ORTIZ (b.1610;m.1634)
--- 3. MIGUEL VAZQUEZ DE LARA (b.1643)
--- sp: JUANA DE ALCALA Y HURTADO DE MENDOZA (b.1638;m.1659;d.1693)
----- 4. JOSE VAZQUEZ DE LARA (b.1675)
----- sp: MAGDALENA BACA (b.1680;m.1693;d.1713)
--- 3. BEATRIZ VAZQUEZ DE LARA
--- sp: JUAN DE ALCALA Y HURTADO DE MENDOZA (m.1664)
--- 3. ELVIRA GIL DE LARA (b.1653)
--- sp: MANUEL DE ALCALA Y HURTADO DE MENDOZA (m.1671)
----- 4. MARIA ORTIZ DE ALCALA
----- sp: ISIDRO GONZALEZ DE LARIS
----- 4. JUANA DE ALCALA
--- 3. CRISTOBAL VASQUES DE LARA (b.1644)
--- sp: JUANA FERNANDEZ DE RUEDA Y DE ANDA ALTAMIRANO (m.1668)
----- 4. NICOLAS VAZQUEZ DE LARA
----- sp: ROSA MARIA MATILDE GOMEZ Y SAINES DE SANTIAGO (m.1707)
----- 4. DAMIANA VAZQUEZ DE LARA

-2. FELIPE VAZQUEZ DE LARA (b.1610)
-sp: UNKNOWN
--- 3. ANTONIO GARCIA DE MIRANDA
--- sp: UNKNOWN
----- 4. CALLETANO GARCIA DE MIRANDA
----- 4. ANTONIO GARCIA DE MIRANDA
---3. FELIX VAZQUEZ DE LARA
--- sp: UNKNOWN
----- 4. NICOLAS VAZQUEZ DE LARA

-2. BALTASAR VAZQUEZ DE LARA (b.1599)
- sp: UNKNOWN
---3. SEBASTIAN VAZQUEZ DE LARA
---sp: LUISA MACIEL
-----4. CRISTOBAL VAZQUEZ DE LARA
-----sp: JOSEFA FLORES
-----4. JUANA VAZQUEZ DE LARA
---3. LUISA VAZQUEZ DE LARA
-----sp: BARTOLOME RAMIREZ BECERRA
-----4. NICOLAS RAMIREZ BECERRA

Por favor haganme saber si encuentran algún error u Horror en lo anterior

Miguel Beltran

Comentario

Hola, Celestino,

Do you have the microfilm roll number or the link for this dispensa? I would be most grateful.

Sinceremente,
Lawrence Bouett
Orinda, CA

Comentario

Juan Vazquez De Zermeño (Uno de los primeros pobladores de Jalostotitlán) fue hijo de Martin Vazquez de Zermeño y de Ana Garcia de Arrona o Garcia de Miranda, hija ella de Juan de Arrona(El escribano autor del acta de la fundación de Santa Maria de los Lagos )y de su esposa Angelica o Angela Garcia de Miranda.

Martin Vazquez de Zermeño (Y Gil de Lara?) y Ana Garcia De Arrona fueron padres tambien de:

Cristobal Vazquez de Lara (el primero con este nombre).
Felipe Vazquez de Lara.
Baltazar Vazquez de Lara.

Tengo en mis notas (aunque sin fuente fidedigna) tambien a: Leonor, Angelina, magdalena y Mariana todas ellas Vazquez de lara.

Acerca Martin Vazquez de Zermeño no encuentro fuentes, aunque en algunas paginas web se menciona como hijo de Juan Vazquez y Elvira Gil de Lara nacido en la ciudad de Mexico hacia 1575, que citan com fuenta "investigaciones de Jaime Holcombe " y segun otros era "peninsular"

Miguel Beltran

Comentario

Miguel,

De acuerdo al testamento del Alférez Mayor Francisco Rodríguez, otorgado en Santa María de los Lagos en 1 Mayo 1683 ante Don Alonso de Navarrete Argote, Escribano Público, el Regidor Martín Vázquez Zermeño era casado con María Rodríguez de Portugal, su hija y de Anna de Portugal, su esposa. Anna era hija de Juan Gómez de Portugal y de María de Yssasi y Cuevas. Los padres de Juan Gómez de Portugal fueron Diego Gómez de Portugal y María García de Arrona, también conocida como María de Arrona. Los padres de esta última fueron Juan de Arrona y Angelina García de Miranda. O sea que María Rodríguez de Portugal era bisnieta de María de Arrona. Probablemente por eso la llamaban igual que a su bisabuela.

Martín Vázquez Zermeño fue Regidor de Santa María de los Lagos y según tengo entendido, fue también vecino y Regidor de Aguascalientes. El Alférez Francisco Rodríguez se refiere a él como su yerno y menciona que era casado con su hija María Rodríguez de Portugal. Tengo entendido que los padres de Martín Vázquez Zermeño fueron Juan Vázquez Zermeño y Theresa de Anda Altamirano, y que los padres de Juan Vázquez Zermeño fueron Martín Vázquez Zermeño y Anna García de Miranda. Según Jaime Holcombe, los padres de este último fueron Juan Vázquez Zermeño y Elvira Gil de Lara. Creo que la confusión proviene de los nombres que se repitieron por varias generaciones. Todavía no he averiguado cual era el parentesco entre Anna García de Miranda y Angelina García de Miranda, esposa de Juan de Arrona.

Con respecto a la línea de Martín Vázquez Zermeño y María Rodríguez de Portugal, hasta hoy empiezo a seguirla gracias a Celestino Villalobos.

BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

I thought the two Garcia de Miranda were sister's, Ill have to look at my notes again,will post what I have! From my understanding Vasquez de Lara was the main family.Juan Vasquez Zermeno and Elvira Gil de Lara compounded their names creatingVasquez de Lara. But One grandson was named Juan and used his grandfather'sname this is where Vasquez Zermeno continued the rest used Vasquez de Lara, these are my notes.
Regards,Daniel
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Comentario

Bill:

En todo lo que mencionas coincidimos. Martin el padre de Juan estubo casado con Ana Garcia de Miranda o de Arrona(hija de Juan de Arrona y de Angelica Garcia de Miranda) y Martin el hijo de Juan estubo casado con Maria Rodriguez de Portugal, (hija de Francisco Rodriguez y Ramires y de sus esposa Ana Gomez de Portugal e Isasi)

Te he enviado un archivo a tu mail, en donde Mario Gomez Mata, Cronista de Lagos, menciona fuentes de 1636 en donde Geronimo de Arrona(otro de los hijos de Juan de Arrona y Maria Garcia Miranda)se refiere a Martin Vazquez Zermeño(El abuelo de Martin Zermeño el que fue regidor) como su cuñado, y otra de 25 agosto 1619 "Mateo de Arce español cy doña Maria de Cervantes. Fueron sus padrinos Jeronimo de Arrona y su hermana Ana Garcia. Br Francisco Perez Rubin", Ambas informaciones en San Juan de los Lagos

Miguel Beltran

Comentario

Yo desciendo de tres hijos de Martín Vázquez de Lara o Vázquez Zermeño y Ana García de Miranda; de Baltazar que es casado con Luisa de Aguilar, de Angelina mujer de Luis Pérez Maldonado, y de Cristóbal casado con María Ortiz.

Yo tengo como padres de Martín a Juan Vázquez Zermeño y a Elvira Gil de Lara; y como padres de Ana García de Miranda a Juan de Arrona y Angelina García de Miranda.

Ahora que viene a colación el tema de los Vázquez Zermeño y sus relaciones familiares con los de Anda Altamirano, los Isassi, los Rodríguez de Portugal y los López Muñoz de Nava, quisiera mencionar que Francisco Rodríguez, esposo de Ana Gómez de Portugal era originario de Puebla de los Ángeles, hijo de Juan Rodríguez Cabezón y Sebastiana Ramírez.

María de Isassi, mujer de Juan Gómez de Portugal es hija de Juan de Isassi y Sebastiana Muñoz de Nava; pero ya no tengo quienes son los ancestros de Juan y Sebastiana, ¿alguno de ustedes los tiene?

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

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Comentario

Jorge,

De acuerdo al testamento del Alférez Francisco Rodríguez, casado con Ana de
Portugal, sus padres se llamaban Francisco Rodríguez y Francisca Ramírez.
Los primeros párrafos de su testamento dicen así:

"En el Nombre de Dios todopoderosso Amen = Sepan quantos vieren
esta carta de mi testamento y Ultima Voluntad como yo Francisco Rodriguez
Alferez Maior desta Villa de Sancta Maria de los Lagos del Reino de la Nu
eva Galicia y criador de ganados Maiores y menores y labrador de trigo y
Maís en la Jurisdision de esta dha Villa e hijo Legitimo de Francisco
Rodriguez y de
Francisca Ramirez mis Padres y señores ya difuntos Vecinos q' fueron de la
Ciudad de la
Puebla de los Angeles de la Nueva España de donde soi natural y
originario... etc."

Tu dices que Francisco era hijo de Juan Rodríguez Cabezón y Sebastiana
Ramírez. De que fuente documental provienen esos datos? Se habrá
equivocado el escribano Don Alonso de Navarrete Argote?

Gracias,

BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

No encuentro la fuente de donde saqué el dato, lo mas seguro es que yo esté equivocado, déjame buscar entre mis cosas haber si lo encuentro; pero lo mas seguro es que el dato que menciona en el testamento es el correcto.

Por cierto, ¿Dónde consigues los testamentos de Lagos de Moreno?, me haría bien buscar algunos.

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

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Comentario

Yo tengo todos estos Testamentos, he estado en contacto con Bill
transfiriendole algunos, por supuesto que si los quieres tu tambien te los
proporciono, pero te comento esto por que estabamos planeando abrir un
proyecto en el grupo para transcribir los mas de 700 Testamentos que tengo,
no se si tu tengas experiencia en esto o si sabes con seguridad quienes en
el grupo pudieran ayudar de modo que las transcripciones fueran lo mas fiel
posibles ya que no todos estan 100% familiarizados con el lenguaje, y si se
juntan algunos cuantos pues abro una pagina de internet con el proyecto para
hacerlo lo mas pronto posible..

Saludos!!

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez"
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 11:51 AM
To: "Nuestros Ranchos"
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Diego Zermeño

>
> No encuentro la fuente de donde saqué el dato, lo mas seguro es que yo
> esté equivocado, déjame buscar entre mis cosas haber si lo encuentro; pero
> lo mas seguro es que el dato que menciona en el testamento es el correcto.
>
>
>
> Por cierto, ¿Dónde consigues los testamentos de Lagos de Moreno?, me haría
> bien buscar algunos.
>
> L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
> Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
> Tel.: 3781095311
> www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Enciende tu hotness con Hotmail
> www.hotmailhotness.com.mx

Comentario

Hola Paco, claro que me gustaría tener algunos de esos testamentos, son de gran interés para mí, además de que siempre encuentras cosas nuevas en ellos.

También me gustaría ayudar en la transcripción de dichos testamentos, pero no se muy bien como hacerlo, que te parece si transcribo alguno de los que me pases y ya me dicen si está bien hecho o no. Me puedes dar algunos consejos para hacer la transcripción lo mejor posible y cualquier duda que tenga en alguna palabra puedo preguntar.

Tengo tiempo transcribiendo los registros parroquiales de mis ancestros y ya estoy un poco mas familiarizado, pero creo que me falta un poco mas.

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

> From: pacoromog@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:41:59 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Diego Zermeño
>
> Jorge:
> Yo tengo todos estos Testamentos, he estado en contacto con Bill
> transfiriendole algunos, por supuesto que si los quieres tu tambien te los
> proporciono, pero te comento esto por que estabamos planeando abrir un
> proyecto en el grupo para transcribir los mas de 700 Testamentos que tengo,
> no se si tu tengas experiencia en esto o si sabes con seguridad quienes en
> el grupo pudieran ayudar de modo que las transcripciones fueran lo mas fiel
> posibles ya que no todos estan 100% familiarizados con el lenguaje, y si se
> juntan algunos cuantos pues abro una pagina de internet con el proyecto para
> hacerlo lo mas pronto posible..
>
> Saludos!!
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez"
> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 11:51 AM
> To: "Nuestros Ranchos"
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Diego Zermeño
>
> >
> > No encuentro la fuente de donde saqué el dato, lo mas seguro es que yo
> > esté equivocado, déjame buscar entre mis cosas haber si lo encuentro; pero
> > lo mas seguro es que el dato que menciona en el testamento es el correcto.
> >
> >
> >
> > Por cierto, ¿Dónde consigues los testamentos de Lagos de Moreno?, me haría
> > bien buscar algunos.
> >
> > L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
> > Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
> > Tel.: 3781095311
> > www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Enciende tu hotness con Hotmail
> > www.hotmailhotness.com.mx
> > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
> >
> > To post, send email to:
> > research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
> >
> > To change your subscription, log on to:
> > http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
> >

Comentario

Paco:

Cuenta con mi ayuda para el proyecto de los Testamentos.

Daniel:

Martin Zermeño el que se caso con Maria Rodriguez de Portugal fue Hijo de Juan Vazquez de Zermeño y de Teresa de Anda Altamirano, nieto pues de Martin Vazquez y Ana Garcia de Miranda o Arrona por parte paterna y de Juan de Anda Altamirano y Ganzalez de Castañeda y de su esposa Juana Ruiz de Nava y Guerra por parte materna.

Maria de Issasi segun lo que yo tengo :
- La que fue hija de Juan de Issasi y de Sebastiana Muñoz de Nava.- caso 2 veces, la primera con Juan Gomez de Portugal, y despues de enviudar con Pedro Perez Franco
-La que fue hija de Nicolás Martin del Campo y Sebastiana de Ysassi y Cuevas.- caso con Antonio Vazquez de Zermeño, hijo este de Juan Vazquez de Zermeño y de Teresa de Anda Altamirano.

No se si tenga algun error.

Miguel Beltran

Comentario

Miguel, no creo que tengas algún error, yo también tengo los mismos datos que tu acerca de las homónimas María de Isassi.

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

_________________________________________________________________
Enciende tu hotness con Hotmail
www.hotmailhotness.com.mx

Comentario

Esta Maria es Maria de Ysasi y Cuevas, hija de Francisco.
Daniel

To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: migueltran@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:05:56 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Vazquez - Zermeño
>
> Tengo otra Maria de Issassi pero la tenia mal escrito(ssasi)
> Esta fue esposa de Francisco Martin del Campo, hermano de Nicolas el esposo de su hermana Sebastiana
>
>
>
> Miguel Beltran

Comentario

Aingun hijo le esntesa la genealogia, sus archivos estan olvidados.

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El jue 25-feb-10, migueltran@gmail.com escribió:

De:: migueltran@gmail.com
Asunto: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jaime Holcombe
A: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: jueves, 25 de febrero de 2010, 17:41

¿Alguno de ustedes sabe de la supuesta publicacion de los trabajos de Jaime Holcombe  ("WE" o "NOSOTROS")por parte de sus hijos?

Miguel Beltran

Comentario

Hace tiempo que tengo la teoria, sin documento que lo pruebe o haga sospechar, mas que la coincidencia de apellidos, nombres, tiempo y lugar:

Elvira Gil de Lara, la madre de Martin Vazquez pudo ser hermana de:

-Magdalena Gil de Lara casada el 2 jun 1586 en Lagos con Diego Frausto D´Apont
-Juan Sanchez de Lara casado el 26 mayo 1587 en lagos con Martha Sanchez de Mendoza,la hija de Toribio Hernandez de Arellano e Isabel Hurtado de Mendoza
-Catalina Sanchez casada en Veracruz el 12 feb 1584 con Juan bernal, hijo de Andres Martin y maria Bernal

Los tres mencionados fueron hijos de Juan Sanchez y Elvira Gil de Lara.

Repito, no es dato sino mera probabilidad estadistica por la coincidencia de nombres tiempo y lugar: Especulo que la madre de Martin Vazquez (de Zermeño),Elvira Gil de Lara PODRIA ser hija de Juan Sanchez y de otra Elvira Gil de Lara

Primero seria necesario confirmar si es que es correcto el dato de que ELvira Gil de Lara fue madre de Martin Vazquez como se dice que encontró Jaime Holcombe.

(Coma nota adicional: una de las nietas de Martin Vazquez usó por nombre Elvira Gil de Lara, la cual casó con Manuel de Alcala y Hurtado de Mendoza)

Miguel Beltran

Comentario

Miguel,

Soy nuevo a este sitio. Quiero ensenarles algunas cosas que he encontrado sobre Elvira Gil de Lara y Juan Vazquez, primogenitos de los Vazquez Zermeno, Vazquez de Lara, etc.

Por favor reviselos y dime como compara con sus estudios de este familia. Yo no pienso que puede ser que hay algunos errores en lo que escribio Jaime Holcombe.

"Mexico
"24 de septiembre de 1578
"Reconocimiento
"Doña María de Garnica, viuda del secretario Alonso Sánchez de Toledo [secretario y escribano mayor de la Aud. de la Nueva Galicia], reconoce un censo a favor de los padres, prior, frailes y convento del monasterio de San Agustin de Tiripetio, en la provincia de Michoacan.
"Por cuanto Francisco Ruiz, sastre, como principal y Domingo de Orona, platero, como su fiador... impusieron y vendieron a Elvira Gil de Lara, viuda de Juan Vázquez, 40 pesos de oro de minas de censo y tributo anual, por el principal de 400 pesos de dicho oro, que impusieron sobre unas casas que Francisco Ruiz tenia en Mexico, en la calle que va por delante del monasterio de San Agustin, -linde con unas casas que fueron de Francisco Granado y al presente son de Juan del Moral; y con casas que fueron de Bautista Marín y al presente son del relator Francisco de la Cerda; y con casas de Francisco de Almos; y por las espaldas con casas que fueron de Francisco Vázquez Coronado y al presente son de Antonio Alonso-; que al presente se pagó censo sobre ellos a razón de 14000 el millar, conforme a lo proveído de su Majestad -como consta por la escritura de censo que paso ante Cristobal Rodriguez Bilbao, escribano, el 21 de enero de 1552. Y Elvira Gil, junto con su marido, vendió y traspasó el censo a los menores hijos de Juan Vázquez— por escritura que pasó ante Diego Pérez, escribano, el 12 de diciembre de 1552, a los cuales menores hizo reconocimiento el dicho Francisco Ruiz y por la cuenta y partición que se hizo entre los dichos menores, se adjudicó el censo a Diego Vázquez -uno de los dicho herederos- quien lo vendio y transpaso a Diego Serrano -como consta en la escritura que pasó ante Juan de Saavedra, escribano, el 2 de septiembre de... " - CATÁLOGO DE DOCUMENTOS HISTÓRICOS COLONIALES DE MICHOACÁN. EXPEDIENTES MICROFILMADOS Y REPRODUCIDOS. COMPILACIÓN, ESTUDIOS Y TRANSCRIPCIÓN: RENÉ BECERRIL PATLÁN Y IGOR CERDA FARÍAS - Page 206

Robert Zermeno

Comentario

Acabé de encontrar en una página web que Elvira Gil de Lara, fue hija natural de Juan Zermeño.

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

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Comentario

Revisen esta página donde encontré dicho dato. Ahí menciona que Juan Vázquez casó con Elvira Gil de Lara, la hija natural de Juan Zermeño.

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

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Comentario

Perdón se me pasó incluir la página:

http://www.amoxcalli.org.mx/paleografia.php?id=310

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

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Comentario

Juan Vázquez el marido de Elvira Gil de Lara, también aparece como Juan Vázquez Perea

LC.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

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Comentario

De la pagina que nos indica Jorge :

[F. 35:]

{121} El dicho Juan Vasques Perea ( de q[uie]n se ha hablado) llego a Mex[i]co, y quien ya viejo casó con la hija natural de Juan Sermeño uno de los conquistadores, tubo en ella varios hijos e hijas, y un descendiente suyo dio una ynformacion en Mexico en hen[er]o de 1576 a[ño]s de los servicios hechos al Rey p[o]r el d[ich]o Juan Vasquez, se examinaron varios testigos, y entre ellos Fran[cis]co de Olmos q[ue] es el 6º testigo declaró así.

Martes 24 dias del mes de henero de dicho año (de 1576) el d[ich]o Juan Gomes (este es nieto de Vasques) presentó por testigo p[ar]a la d[ic]ha informac[io]n a Fran[cis]co Olmos conquistador vecino de esta d[ic]ha ciudad del qual fue tomado en recibido juram[en]to por d[io]s e p[o]r S[an]ta Maria en forma de derecho cargo del qual siendo preguntado dixo lo sig[uien]te. De la 1ª preg[un]ta dixo q[ue] conoció al d[ic]ho Juan Vasq[ue]Z, difunto de mas de 25 años ha esta parte, e q[ue] los demas contenidos en la preg[un]ta no los conoce, fuele preg[unta]do p[o]r las preguntas generales dixo q[ue] es de edad de mas de 75 a[ño]s y q[ue] no le toca ning[un]a de las generales q[ue] le fueron declaradas.

{122}De la 2ª preg[un]ta dixo q[ue] lo q[ue] sabe de esta preg[un]ta es q[ue] este testigo como d[ich]o tiene conocio al d[ich]o Juan Sermeño el qual fue persona muy honrada y de calidad y buen soldado y fue uno de los primeros conquitadores de esta prov[inci]a en comp[añi]a del Marq[ue]zdel Valle D[o]n Fern[an]do Cortes y en la d[ic]ha conquista sirvio a su mag[esta]d bien y lealm[en]te y como buen vasallo con su persona y armas sin sueldo, y q[ue] esto sabe y declara de esta preg[un]ta.

{123} De la 3ª preg[un]ta dixo q[ue] este testigo sabe e vido q[ue] el d[ic]ho Juan Sermeño tubo una hija natural q[ue] crio en su casa, e la tubo e nombró por tal q[ue] no sabe como se llamaba, e q[ue] como tal su hija natural la casó con el d[ic]ho Juan Vasq[ue]z e q[ue] esto es lo q[ue] sabe de esta preg[un]ta.

{124} De la 4ª preg[un]ta dixo q[ue] este testigo nunca conocio rei supo q[ue] el d[ic]ho Juan Sermeño tubiese ning[u]n hijo legitimo de legitimo matrimonio.

{125} De la 5ª preg[un]ta dixo q[ue] este testigo sabe e vido q[ue] el d[ic]ho Juan Vasques fue de los segundos pobladores de esta ciudad, e no de los primeros pobladores.

{126} De la 6ª preg[un]ta dixo q[ue] este testigo tubo y conocio al d[ic]ho Juan Vasq[ue]z por marido legitimo de una hija de Juan Sermeño. Ets[etera].

[F. 35v:]

{127} Nota el d[ic]ho Juan Vasq[ue]z casó con Elvira Gil de Lara, q[ue] fue la hija natural de Juan Cermeño. El d[ic]ho Juan Gomes fue marido de Ana Vasq[ue]z (hija de Vasq[ue]z y de Elvira Gil de Lara, y p[o]r consig[uien]te era yerno de Juan Vasq[ue]z) este d[ic]ho Gomes puso en el interrogat[ori]o la preg[un]ta de q[ue] si sabian q[ue] Juan Vasq[ue]z havia sido de los primeros pobladores, y por eso dixo Olmos, q[ue] no era de los primeros, sino de los segundos, los demas testigos responden afirmativo. No se dice en toda la informac[io]n en q[ue] año llegó, ni q[ue] llegara con los frailes, yo creo q[ue] llegó con ellos a fines del año de 1524.

________________________________________________________________________________________

Segun estoy entendiendo de este valioso texto y del aporte de Robert. Zermeño:

Juan Zermeño llego a Mexico alrededor de 1521 .fue uno de los conquistadores.
Tuvo una hija natural(sin estar casado con la madre) a la que llamó Elvira Gil de Lara
Ella debio nacer entre 1520 y 1635 aproximadamente,

Elvira Gil de Lara caso con Juan Vazquez Perea, ya viejo, antes de 1550 pues para el 12 de diciembre de 1552 "Elvira Gil, junto con su marido, vendió y traspasó el censo a los menores hijos de Juan Vázquez— por escritura que pasó ante Diego Pérez, escribano"

Juan Vazquez dejo viuda a Elvira Gil de Lara aunque no está claro cuando. Francisco Olmos en 1576 dice que era "difunto de mas de 25 años ha esta parte" y en el texto que nos comparte Rober. Zermeño dice que "Elvira Gil, junto con su marido, vendió y traspasó el censo a los menores hijos de Juan Vázquez— por escritura que pasó ante Diego Pérez, escribano, el 12 de diciembre de 1552"(no necesariamente tenia que estar vivo Juan Vazquez para ese momento)

Esto tambien nos aclara que Martin Vazquez de Zermeño, no pudo nacer hacia 1575 (si es que fue hijo de esta pareja), como se menciona en varios sitios web sobre todo de Nuevo Mexico, que indican como fuente investigacion de Jaime Hilcombe, y que no fue peninsular

Juan Vazquez Perea y Elvira Gil de lara tuvieron varios hijos e hijas entre ellos Ana Vazquez casada con Juan Gomez, y Diego Vazquez.

Con esto queda claro que mi teoria era incorecta, y se esclarecen muchos datos al respecto. Solo faltaria encontrar el documento que prueba que Martin fue uno de los hijos de Elvira Gil de Lara y Juan Vazque Perea.Todo parece indicar que es así.

Aun me queda duda si la Elvira Gil de Lara que fue esposa de Juan Sanchez tenia algun parentesco con las personas antes mencionadas(podria ser hermana de Martín Vazquez o incluso la misma viuda vuelta a casar).

Miguel Beltran

Comentario

No tengo documentos difinitivos paro probar esto, pero pienso que es algo come esto:

Juan Vazquez Perea caso con Elvira Gil de Lara c. 1545
-hijo Juan Vazquez Zermeno (nacio c. 1545) caso con ?
-hijo Martin Vazquez Zermeno (nacio c. 1575) caso con Ana Garcia Miranda

Esto, creo, refriere a el esposo de Elvira Gil de Lara:
"El primer ibero que se estableció por estas tierras y del cual se tiene referencia concreta lo fue Juan Vázquez Zermeño, quien en el año 1543 recibió tierras en las cercanias de Tocaltitlan estancia de San Salvador en el area de Atonayalco, hoy San Miguel el Alto."
-San Juan de los Lagos frente a su historia - Page 20 by Remberto Hernández Padilla

Parece que dice lo siguiente que el esposo de Elvira Gil de Lara tenia un hijo Juan:
"Fue parte de las tierras mercedadas a Juan Vázquez Zermeño y a su hijo del mismo nombre que recibieron tierras en la jurisdicción de Jalostotitlán, San Juan de los Lagos y Lagos; de ahí su nombre Río de los Vázquez [municipio de Unión de San Antonio, Jal.], que conserva hasta nuestros días."
- El siervo de Dios, monseñor José de Jesús López y González? - Page 51

Robert Zermeno

Comentario

Esto es poco confuso porque aun dicen que Juan Vasquez Perea es Juan Vasquez Zermeno

pero en el documento citado hacia bajo dice Juan Vasquez Zermeno, y su hijo del mismo

nombre.

Daniel

To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints

please visit www.mormon.org

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: robertzermeno@msn.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 15:47:29 -0800
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Juan Vazquez Perea
>
> No tengo documentos difinitivos paro probar esto, pero pienso que es algo come esto:
>
> Juan Vazquez Perea caso con Elvira Gil de Lara c. 1545
> -hijo Juan Vazquez Zermeno (nacio c. 1545) caso con ?
> -hijo Martin Vazquez Zermeno (nacio c. 1575) caso con Ana Garcia Miranda
>
> Esto, creo, refriere a el esposo de Elvira Gil de Lara:
> "El primer ibero que se estableció por estas tierras y del cual se tiene referencia concreta lo fue Juan Vázquez Zermeño, quien en el año 1543 recibió tierras en las cercanias de Tocaltitlan estancia de San Salvador en el area de Atonayalco, hoy San Miguel el Alto."
> -San Juan de los Lagos frente a su historia - Page 20 by Remberto Hernández Padilla
>
> Parece que dice lo siguiente que el esposo de Elvira Gil de Lara tenia un hijo Juan:
> "Fue parte de las tierras mercedadas a Juan Vázquez Zermeño y a su hijo del mismo nombre que recibieron tierras en la jurisdicción de Jalostotitlán, San Juan de los Lagos y Lagos; de ahí su nombre Río de los Vázquez [municipio de Unión de San Antonio, Jal.], que conserva hasta nuestros días."
> - El siervo de Dios, monseñor José de Jesús López y González? - Page 51
>
> Robert Zermeno

Comentario

Busco a los padres de María de San Joseph Guerra Valadez, esposa de Manuel (Vasquez) de Zermeño Rodriguez Portugal casados en 08 Sep 1715. Su partida de matrimono no tiene los nombres de los padres de dice que estan dispensados de parentesco por consanguinidad en cuarto grado.
En una página de los Zermeño dice que el segundo apellido de María de San Joseph es Marmolejo. http://www.zermeno.com/Zermeno_ext_Mexico.html Cuando busco parejas de Guerra con Marmolejo salen dos en esos años. Una es Francisco Guerra Valadez y Gallardo con Catarina Marmolejo y Bribiescas y la otra es Alonso o Álvaro Guerra Valadez y Gallardo y Rosa Marmolejo y Bribiescas. Salen esas parejas en http://www.somosprimos.com/sp2002/spsep02.htm y tambien en Familysearch. Como se ve en Somos Primos Cap. Don Diego de Marmolejo y Gómez de Portugal, dueño de " Ibarra", la cual su esposa ya viuda Doña Juana de Bribiesca e Isasi, hija legítima de Don Isidro Bribiesca y Doña María de Isasi y Cuevas originarios de Lagos fueron los padres de Catarina y Rosa Marmolejo y Bribiescas. Los padres de Diego de Marmolejo y Gómez de Portugal fueron Antonio Marmolejo y Pedraza y Ana Gómez de Portugal y Arrona , originaria de San Felipe. ¿Fue Ana hija de Diego Gómez de Portugal y María Garcia de Arrona? Es Francisco Guerra Valadez y Gallardo el mismo que casó con Teresa Martín del Campo y Flores de la Torre? Es María de Isasi y Cuevas, esposa de Isidro Bribiesca, la misma que casó con Francisco Martín del Campo y López de la Cruz? Alguien sabe mas sobre Francisca de Villalobos que casó en 1527 en la Villa rica de la Veracruz de la Nueva España con Diego de Marmolexo originario de Sevilla, Andalucía, España?

Armando

Comentario

Yo tengo copias de casi todos su geneologia que entrego a LDS. Son copias individuales de cada pagina.
----- Original Message -----
From: ruben casillas moreno
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jaime Holcombe

Aingun hijo le esntesa la genealogia, sus archivos estan olvidados.

Ruben Casillas M.

--- El jue 25-feb-10, migueltran@gmail.com > escribió:

De:: migueltran@gmail.com >
Asunto: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jaime Holcombe
A: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Fecha: jueves, 25 de febrero de 2010, 17:41

¿Alguno de ustedes sabe de la supuesta publicacion de los trabajos de Jaime Holcombe ("WE" o "NOSOTROS")por parte de sus hijos?

Miguel Beltran

Comentario

El hijo de Jaime me dijo que va a publicar el ultimo libro de su padre y que me va informar cuando, pero si, casi todo lo que tenia escrito su padre se a perdido por negligensia, humidad en Baja y por " worms" (gusanos?) en D. F. La familia de Jaime no tenian interes en la genealogia.

Emilie

Port Orchard, WA

> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:30:30 -0800
> From: rubenazo_casillas@yahoo.com.mx
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jaime Holcombe
>
> Aingun hijo le esntesa la genealogia, sus archivos estan olvidados.
>
> Ruben Casillas M.
>
> --- El jue 25-feb-10, migueltran@gmail.com escribió:
>
>
> De:: migueltran@gmail.com
> Asunto: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jaime Holcombe
> A: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Fecha: jueves, 25 de febrero de 2010, 17:41
>
>
> ¿Alguno de ustedes sabe de la supuesta publicacion de los trabajos de Jaime Holcombe ("WE" o "NOSOTROS")por parte de sus hijos?
>
> Miguel Beltran

Comentario

Ricci:

La Maria que tengo no tiene otro nombre. La verdad es que no anoté la fuente de la que obtuve el dato(como casi todos cometimos el error de pricipiante.
Tengo como sus hermanos a Nicolas, Lazaro y Juan de Dios y como hermanas tengo solo a
Sebastiana bautizada 20 Agosto 1679 en Lagos,

Miguel Beltrán

Comentario

Gracias Miguel, en cuanto tenga la metodologia te lo hare saber
Saludos!

--------------------------------------------------
From:
Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 9:08 AM
To:
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Vazquez - Zermeño

> Paco:
>
> Cuenta con mi ayuda para el proyecto de los Testamentos.
>
> Daniel:
>
> Martin Zermeño el que se caso con Maria Rodriguez de Portugal fue Hijo de
> Juan Vazquez de Zermeño y de Teresa de Anda Altamirano, nieto pues de
> Martin Vazquez y Ana Garcia de Miranda o Arrona por parte paterna y de
> Juan de Anda Altamirano y Ganzalez de Castañeda y de su esposa Juana Ruiz
> de Nava y Guerra por parte materna.
>
>
> Maria de Issasi segun lo que yo tengo :
> - La que fue hija de Juan de Issasi y de Sebastiana Muñoz de Nava.- caso 2
> veces, la primera con Juan Gomez de Portugal, y despues de enviudar con
> Pedro Perez Franco
> -La que fue hija de Nicolás Martin del Campo y Sebastiana de Ysassi y
> Cuevas.- caso con Antonio Vazquez de Zermeño, hijo este de Juan Vazquez de
> Zermeño y de Teresa de Anda Altamirano.
> No se si tenga algun error.
>
>
>
> Miguel Beltran

Comentario

Yo desciendo de maria antonia Ysazi Martin del campo una hija de nicolas martin del campo y de Sebastiana Isassi y Cuevas quien se caso con Joseph Aguilar Solorzano en 1681 en Lagos de Moreno, Jalisco. Queria saber si la maria quien mencionas tiene un medio nombre. Tenian otras hermanas. yo no mas tengo hermanos
Gracias

________________________________
From: "migueltran@gmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, February 25, 2010 6:08:39 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Vazquez - Zermeño

Paco:

Cuenta con mi ayuda para el proyecto de los Testamentos.

Daniel:

Martin Zermeño el que se caso con Maria Rodriguez de Portugal fue Hijo de Juan Vazquez de Zermeño y de Teresa de Anda Altamirano, nieto pues de Martin Vazquez y Ana Garcia de Miranda o Arrona por parte paterna y de Juan de Anda Altamirano y Ganzalez de Castañeda y  de su esposa Juana Ruiz de Nava y Guerra por parte materna.

Maria de Issasi segun lo que yo tengo :
- La que fue hija de Juan de Issasi y de Sebastiana Muñoz de Nava.- caso 2 veces, la primera con Juan Gomez de Portugal, y despues de enviudar con Pedro Perez Franco
-La que fue hija de Nicolás Martin del Campo y Sebastiana de Ysassi y Cuevas.- caso con Antonio Vazquez de Zermeño, hijo este de Juan Vazquez de Zermeño y de Teresa de Anda Altamirano.
No se si tenga algun error.

Miguel Beltran

Comentario

Tienes mas datos sobre Maria Ortiz, mujer de Cristobal Vasquez de Lara.Y Luisa de Aguilar quien caso a Baltasar Vasquez de Lara.
Saludos,Daniel
Piense que no se conocia la identidad de la mujer de Baltasar.

To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org

> From: georgio_2386@hotmail.com
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:39:04 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Diego Zermeño
>
>
> Yo desciendo de tres hijos de Martín Vázquez de Lara o Vázquez Zermeño y Ana García de Miranda; de Baltazar que es casado con Luisa de Aguilar, de Angelina mujer de Luis Pérez Maldonado, y de Cristóbal casado con María Ortiz.
>
>
>
> Yo tengo como padres de Martín a Juan Vázquez Zermeño y a Elvira Gil de Lara; y como padres de Ana García de Miranda a Juan de Arrona y Angelina García de Miranda.
>
>
>
> Ahora que viene a colación el tema de los Vázquez Zermeño y sus relaciones familiares con los de Anda Altamirano, los Isassi, los Rodríguez de Portugal y los López Muñoz de Nava, quisiera mencionar que Francisco Rodríguez, esposo de Ana Gómez de Portugal era originario de Puebla de los Ángeles, hijo de Juan Rodríguez Cabezón y Sebastiana Ramírez.
>
>
>
> María de Isassi, mujer de Juan Gómez de Portugal es hija de Juan de Isassi y Sebastiana Muñoz de Nava; pero ya no tengo quienes son los ancestros de Juan y Sebastiana, ¿alguno de ustedes los tiene?
>
> L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
> Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
> Tel.: 3781095311
> www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: as HOT as always
> www.hotmailhotness.com.mx

Comentario

Hola Daniel, de María Ortiz no tengo mas datos. De la mujer de Baltazar Vázquez de Lara hasta hace poco encontré que se llamaba Leonor de Aguilar en un libro que compré que se titula "Extractos de informes matrimoniales en el obispado de Michoacán durante el siglo XVII" (1630-1685). de Guillermo Padilla Origel.

En la página 35 de dicho libro se encuentra un extracto del matrimonio de Sebastián Vázquez de Lara con Luisa de Liébana el 25 de febrero de 1658 en Tangancícuaro, Michoacán. En dicho extracto menciona de que el es hijo de Sebastián Vázquez de Lara y Leonor de Aguilar, vecino de la Villa de los Lagos; y ella lo es de Diego Magdaleno y Josefa de Liébana, vecina de dicha villa de Tangancícuaro.

Aquí se menciona a Sebastián en vez de Baltazar, no se que cual sea el que esté bien.

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: as HOT as always
www.hotmailhotness.com.mx

Comentario

Hola Miguel,

Muy interesante e informativo el artículo que escribió el cronista de Lagos
Mario Gómez Mata (publicado en Nuestras Raíces #74 por el Archivo Histórico
de Lagos de Moreno). Muchísimas gracias por compartirlo. También te
agradezco que me hayas confirmado que Ana García de Miranda (o de Arrona)
era hija de Juan de Arrona y Angélica García de Miranda . Poco a poco las
piezas del rompecabezas van cayendo en su sitio. Para seguir adelante con
la genealogía de esa importante familia de Lagos, te comunico que tengo en
mi base de datos como hijos legítimos del Alférez Francisco Rodríguez y Doña
Ana de Portugal a Francisco, Bernardo, Juan, Miguel, María (cc Martín
Vázquez Zermeño), Cristobal, Catarina, Ana, Clara, Margarita y Francisca,
todos nacidos entre 1657 y 1683.

Saludos

BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Entre los hijos que mencionas de Francisco Rodríguez y Ana Gómez de Portugal falta mencionar a su hijo Pedro, bautizado el 22 de agosto de 1662 en Lagos de Moreno.

L.C.P. Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.
Tepatitlán de Morelos, Jalisco, México.
Tel.: 3781095311
www.facebook.com/jorgeluis.ramirezgomez

_________________________________________________________________
Prefiero un día sin coche que sin Messenger
www.vivirmessenger.com

Comentario

Edgar Olguin Diaz
buenos dias bill figueroa

una pregunta como puedo encontrar que los padres de Ana García de Miranda (o de Arrona) era hija de Juan de Arrona y Angélica García de Miranda ?

te lo agradeceria mucho

espero y me puedas ayudar

gracias por tu atencion

que tengas un excelente dia

saludos

Comentario

Edgar Olguin Diaz

copiare la transcripción de testamento de angelina garcia:

13067. Angelina Garcia de Arrona

TESTAMENTO DE ANGELINA GARCIA DE ARRONA

Lina mercedes cruz lira y eloy de la cruz ruvalba introducción y paleografía el
testamento de angelina garcía esposa de joanes de arrona fundadores de santa
maría de los lagos, 1618. estamento de angel ina garcía. t cañada de san juan,
jurisdicción del pueblo de jalostotitlán, 19 de mayo de 1618.(1) el testamento
de angelina garcía es de suma importancia para la historia de lagos de moreno,
por varias razones: es uno de los testamentos más antiguos que se han
localizado de santa maría de los lagos; en él podemos encontrar noticias de la
genealogía de la familia que formó con joan de arrona, pero también con su
primer esposo martín garcía; las tierras que acumularon ella y su segundo
esposo, las cuales en su mayor parte estaban cercanas al pueblo de indios de
san juan mezquititlán. por otra parte, también encontramos noticias sobre el
próspero negocio ganadero manejado por jerónimo de arrona (primogénito del
matrimonio arrona-garcía). la riqueza de la familia reflejada no sólo en la
gran cantidad de ganado criado en sus estancias y las tierras adquiridas, sino
también en las disposiciones de angelina, tanto en las obras pías como en el
reparto de sus bienes entre sus herederos. su doble viudez es ejemplo de las
consecuencias vividas por los vecinos de estos lugares, debido a los ataques
que los chichimecas infringieron en las villas españolas de la conocida zona de
frontera localizada al occidente de la nueva galicia, y donde se asentaban a
fines del siglo xvi sitios como teocaltiche, lagos y jalostotitlán y demás
poblados de menor cantidad de vecinos españoles, criollos, indios y mestizos.
finalmente, la dos veces viuda, también tuvo que sufrir la muerte de varios de
sus hijos (5 en total). entonces, su vida ubicada entre finales del siglo xvi y
primeras décadas del xvii, fue para ella contrastante. en el primer matrimonio
vivió de forma precaria y en zozobra, mientras que en el segundo tuvo estabi l
idad y prosperidad. pocas veces tenemos la f o r t una de en c on t r a r f uen
t e s documentales que contenga tal riqueza de información. así, por lo
importante de su contenido es que aquí se presenta completa su paleografía y
sólo un brevísimo análisis de la variedad de asuntos que nos permiten
comprender una etapa poco conocida en esta región. in dey nomine amen. sepan
cuantos vieren ésta carta e última voluntad viesen como yo angelina garcía,
viuda vecina de este valle de jalostotitlán en el nuevo reino de la galicia,
mujer que fui de el primer matrimonio de martín garcía y de el segundo
matrimonio de joanes de arrona, (2) estando como estoy sana de mi cuerpo y de
mi entendimiento y de mi voluntad y en mi cumplida memoria según y cómo nuestro
señor fue servido de darme creyendo como creo bien y verdaderamente en el
misterio de la santísima trinidad, padre, hijo y espíritu santo, tres personas
y un solo dios verdadero; deseando poner mi alma en carrera de salvación
tomando por mi abogada y señora a la virgen de la vida (sic) nuestra señora
santa maría y a los santos ángeles y apóstoles san pedro y san pablo con toda
la corte de el cielo para que rueguen a dios por mi ánima cuando su santa
voluntad fuese servido de llevarme de esta presente vida a su santo reino amen,
hago y ordeno mi testamento y última voluntad en la forma que sigue: mando y es
mi voluntad que cuando nuestro señor fuere servido de llevarme de esta presente
vida mi cuerpo se entierre y sea sepultado en la iglesia parroquial de el
pueblo de jalostotitlán de este partido donde está enterrado mi buen marido
joanes de arrona y mi hijo juan de arrona y acompañen mi cuerpo el beneficiado
que eso fuese de este partido y se entierre con la pompa y funeral que es
costumbre y sea mi cuerpo enterrado en la capilla de la iglesia en la parte y
lugar a donde está el dicho mi marido joanes de arrona y esta es mi voluntad y
mando se pague la limosna de mis bienes: item, mando que si el día de mi en t
er rami en t o hub i ere a l gunos sacerdotes viandantes les conviden mis
albaceas se hallen a mi entierro y les paguen ahí eso de limosna por ello y si
me dijesen aquel día misa se la paguen como es costumbre y esta es mi voluntad.
item, mando que se me diga el día de

30 mi enterramiento misa de cuerpo presente con vigilia
solemne y si este día no hubiere lugar otro día y se pague de mis bienes la
limosna y se ofrende pan y vino como es costumbre. item, encargo a mis albaceas
hagan decirme tres misas cantadas ha honra y penitencia de la santísima
trinidad por mi ánima y se pague de mis bienes la limosna. item, mando que se
me diga un novenar io cantado como vigi l ia solemne como es costumbre y se
ofrenden de pan y vino. item, quiero y mando que el beneficiado de éste partido
que es o fuere diga por las ánimas de mis padres quince misas rezadas y esta es
mi voluntad. item, quiero y mando a los dichos mis albaceas hagan decir ocho
misas por las ánimas de[l] purgatorio. item, quiero y mando a mis albaceas
manden decir quince misas por el ánima de martín garcía mi primer marido y las
diga el beneficiado de la villa de los lagos en la iglesia de la dicha villa
por cuanto está enterrado en ella el dicho martín garcía y por mi compadre
alonso garcía de miranda se digan las dicha misas juntamente. item, mando se
digan quince misas por el ánima de mi hermano baltasar garcía y por su mujer
francisca de la fuente que están enterrados en el pueblo de mesquitique mando
que las diga el beneficiado de este partido, que es o fuere. item, mando que se
digan tres misas en el pueblo de tecualtitlan, (3) por una niña que allí está
enterrada o donde fuere la voluntad de el dicho beneficiado. item, mando que se
digan por el ánima de mi hijo cristóbal garcía, cinco misas y las diga el
beneficiado de la villa de aguas calientes porque está allí enterrado el dicho
mi hijo. item, mando y es mi voluntad que a las mandas forzosas se les den a
cada uno dos reales de limosna con que las aparto de mis bienes. item, mando
quiero y es mi voluntad que se me digan por mi ánima quinientas misas rezadas y
se repartan en esta manera: las cincuenta se digan en el altar de el santo
crucifijo de la iglesia mayor de la ciudad de guadalajara y las cincuenta en el
monasterio de san francisco de la ciudad y veinte y cinco misas en el
monasterio de san agustín de la dicha ciudad y las veinte y cinco en el
monasterio de santo domingo de la dicha ciudad de guadalajara. item, mando y es
mi voluntad que las demás misas a cumplimiento de estas quinientas misas las
diga el beneficiado de éste partido que es o fuere a su voluntad en las demás
partes y lugares que le pareciere. item, encargo a mi hijo jerónimo de arrona
que por cuanto yo le he querido y he tenido muy grande amor más que a los demás
hijos y porque siempre le he tenido conmigo en mi compañía y porque quiero y es
mi voluntad que él sea mi albacea, como lo nombrase tenga cuenta con mi ánima y
le procure hacer todo el bien que pidiere y mande y tenga cuenta que se me
digan estas misas que pido por mi ánima pues es mi hijo y le quiero mucho.
item, mando que por una niña que tengo enterrada en el pueblo de san jhoan de
este partido digan cuatro misas rezadas en este partido. item, mando que por mi
hijo pedro de arrona se digan seis misas rezadas. item, mando que a nuestra
señora de guadalupe de la ciudad de méxico se le den cien pesos de limosnas
para que se le haga un ornamento y mando se compren seis candelas de cera de
castilla de a libra doradas y se enciendan en su altar de la virgen nuestra
señora de guadalupe de la dicha ciudad. item, mando a la iglesia de el pueblo
de jalostotitlan donde mando que mi cuerpo se entierre, se le den de limosna
cincuenta pesos para ayuda de hacer la dicha iglesia y más lo que fuere la
voluntad de el dicho jerónimo de arrona. item, mando que a la iglesia de el
pueblo de mitic a donde se hace la fiesta de el corpus cristi se le den treinta
pesos para que con ellos se ayude a hacer una custodia por cuanto no la hay y
se a de hacer. item, declaro que yo fui casada y velada según orden de la santa
iglesia dos veces, la primera con martín garcía y la segunda con joanes de
arrona y de el primer matrimonio con el dicho martín garcía tuvimos por
nuestros hijos legítimos a juan de segura y a cristóbal garcía ya difunto y a
una niña maría ya difunta y a mi hija ana garcía, y durante este matrimonio y
haber tenido a estos nuestros hijos declaro que nunca tuvimos hacienda ni cosas
para podernos sustentar y por nuestra pobreza y necesidad el dicho mi marido
martín garcía se puso a servir a rodrigo de frías a el cual sirvió algún tiempo
y de allí nos fuimos al pueblo de tecualtitlán donde estuvimos más de tres años
con mucha necesidad y pobreza, de manera que fue causa que nos venimos al
pueblo de san juan de a donde salió andando el tiempo para la villa de los
lagos y viniendo le mataron los indios en el camino que era tiempo de guerra.
item, declaro que el dicho martín garcía mi marido siempre fue muy pobre y no
tuvo hacienda ni la dejo a sus hijos. item, declaro que de el segundo
matrimonio fui casada y velada según orden de la santa madre iglesia con joanes
de arrona y durante el dicho matrimonio tuvimos por nuestros hijos legítimos a
mi hijo jerónimo de arrona y a mi hija maría de arrona, y a mi hijo joanes de
arrona, ya difunto, y a mi hijo pedro de arrona, ya difunto, y a mi hija
magdalena de arrona y declaro que yo fui casada con el dicho joanes de arrona
más de veinte años poco más o menos y durante este tiempo tuvimos los dichos
nuestros hijos tratando y contratando y adquiriendo bienes con que podernos
sustentar, tuvimos por compras y meced las tierras de la cañada donde al
presente vivo la cual debimos (sic) de cicilia (sic) lópez y las pago el dicho
joanes de arrona mi marido a los herederos de la dicha cicilia lópez. item,
quiero que el sitio de la estancia vieja que también la compró el dicho joanes
de arrona mi marido y todos los demás sitios y tierras que parecieren las
compró y hubo el dicho mi marido joanes de arrona, y después de su fin y muerte
de el dicho mi marido joanes de arrona yo he comprado y adquirido y mi hijo
jerónimo de arrona por mercedes que su majestad me ha hecho y los señores
presidentes y gobernadores los sitios y estancias y tierras que ahora
nuevamente tengo pobladas con la solicitud de el dicho mi hijo jerónimo de
arrona. item, declaro y digo que cuando murió el dicho joanes de arrona mi
segundo marido quedaron por bienes gananciales las estancias y tierras que por
su fin y muerte quedaron que son la principal, está en que al presente vivo y
las tierras que hay en esta jurisdicción y en ellas cantidad de ganado vacuno
hembra y macho, e yeguas y ganado de cerda y cantidad de ovejas y bueyes y
caballos y aperos de la labor y otras muchas cosas como parecerá por el
inventario que al tiempo y cuando murió el dicho joanes de arrona mi marido se
hizo por la justicia de este partido y por ante juan tenorio escribano real a
el cual dicho inventario me remito y como tengo dicho estos bienes que quedaron
por fin y muerte de el dicho joanes de arrona mi segundo marido, fueron
gananciales entre mi y él por no haber yo llevado dote alguno a su poder ni el
dicho mi marido traído capital alguno. item, declaro que he dado a juan de
sigura (sic) mi hijo y de el dicho martín garcía mi primer marido cantidad de
trescientos pesos en reales y ropa blanca y un vestido y un caballo en ropa y
dineros, preseas y otras cosas, mando que hecha la cuenta con él por mis
albaceas lo reciba en cuenta para lo que de mis bienes le pudiere pertenecer.
item, declaro que yo di en dote a maría de arrona mi hija con diego gómez su
marido dos mil pesos de la parte que le pudo pertenecer de la hacienda de el
dicho joanes de arrona su padre, y si algo le di más de la dicha parte
queriendo venir a partición con mis herederos mando lo traigo a colación y
partición sin que lleve por vía de mejora ni por otro recurso lo que ansi (sic)
hubiere reservado de mi, sino que sea para en cuenta de la dicha su legítima.
item, declaro que [hace] veinte años antes más que menos que murió el dicho
joanes de arrona mi marido segundo y por quedar como quede viuda y con
haciendas de campo y pedro de arrona mi hijo muy muchacho y de poca edad mandé
y rogué a el dicho jerónimo de arrona mi hijo y de el dicho mi segundo marido
que era ya hombre de edad suficiente para administrar y regir cualesquier
haciendas se quedara en las mías para [regirlas y gobernarlas] que yo le
señalaba y señalé de salario por cada un año de los que se ocupase y trabajase
en las dichas haciendas cuatrocientos y cincuenta pesos que es lo menos que se
da aún mayordomo en esta tierra, y ansi desde entonces hasta ahora las ha
administrado y administra y con su industria solicitud y trabajo las a
aumentado en mucha cantidad como es notorio y me a servido y acompañado en mis
enfermedades y necesidades como hijo obediente por tanto mando y quiero que de
lo más bien pasado de mis bienes se le paguen a el dicho mi hijo jerónimo de
arrona toda la cantidad de pesos que montase el dicho tiempo de los dichos
veinte años a razón de los dichos cuatrocientos y cincuenta pesos y si a mis
herederos les pareciese demasiado el dicho salario o sobre ello le pusiesen
pleito, caso que se moderase en menos en toda la parte de los dichos años que
se moderase le hago gracia y donación y mejora en la parte que puedo y el
derecho me permite que es en el tercio y quinto de mis bienes y esta es mi
voluntad. item, declaro que en todo el dicho tiempo que el dicho mi hijo
jerónimo de arrona a estado en la administración de mi hacienda todos los
frutos y procedidos de ellas que a adviere (sic) vendido a sido por mi orden y
comunicándolo conmigo ansí me dado cuenta de todo lo procedido y no es a su
cargo cosa ninguna de que la debía dar a los dicho mis herederos ni a otra
persona, sobre esta razón de la dicha administración y procedido de las dichas
mis haciendas por haber entrado en mi poder como tengo dicho y gastándose por
mi orden en el aumento de mis haciendas y ansi le doy por libre de la dicha
cuenta para que nadie se la pida tomen ni demanden por lo que tengo dicho y
declarado. item, declaro que el dicho mi hijo jerónimo de arrona a tenido
algunos pleitos y gastos de su persona. declaro no haber los hechos de mi
hacienda sino de inteligencias que él a tenido con mi permiso y voluntad mando
que por esta razón no se le descuente ninguna cosa de los bienes que míos le
perteneciesen en cualquier manera, ni de la legítima de su padre y si por razón
de esto le movieren pleito mis herederos por el mismo caso en lo que les
pudieran vencer, en esta razón le hago gracia y

Comentario

Estoy poco confundido cual Martin se caso que con Maria Rodriguez de Portugal?
Saludos,Daniel

To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: migueltran@gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:30:28 -0800
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Diego Zermeño
>
> Bill:
>
> En todo lo que mencionas coincidimos. Martin el padre de Juan estubo casado con Ana Garcia de Miranda o de Arrona(hija de Juan de Arrona y de Angelica Garcia de Miranda) y Martin el hijo de Juan estubo casado con Maria Rodriguez de Portugal, (hija de Francisco Rodriguez y Ramires y de sus esposa Ana Gomez de Portugal e Isasi)
>
> Te he enviado un archivo a tu mail, en donde Mario Gomez Mata, Cronista de Lagos, menciona fuentes de 1636 en donde Geronimo de Arrona(otro de los hijos de Juan de Arrona y Maria Garcia Miranda)se refiere a Martin Vazquez Zermeño(El abuelo de Martin Zermeño el que fue regidor) como su cuñado, y otra de 25 agosto 1619 "Mateo de Arce español cy doña Maria de Cervantes. Fueron sus padrinos Jeronimo de Arrona y su hermana Ana Garcia. Br Francisco Perez Rubin", Ambas informaciones en San Juan de los Lagos
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Miguel Beltran

Comentario

BIll,
I don't think Maria Ysasi y Cuevas married Juan Gomez de Portugal. There were two early Maria "Ysasi" one was Maria Ysasi y Cuevas who married Francisco Martin del Campo. Then there was her aunt Maria Ulibarride Ysasi. Maria Ysasi y Cuevas parents were Francisco (Fransiko? Ulibarri) de Ysasi, not sure when or why theydropped Ulibarri and Sebastiana Munoz. The aunt who was Maria de Ysasi was baptized 30 aug 1617 in Lagosde Moreno.
Ysasi y Cuevas was created when Francisco de Ysasi married Elvira-Germana de Cuevas, daughterof Pedro de Cuevas and Maria de Celis.
Regards,Daniel

To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org

> From: bill_figueroa@usa.net
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:48:20 -0600
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Diego Zermeño
>
> Miguel,
>
> De acuerdo al testamento del Alférez Mayor Francisco Rodríguez, otorgado en Santa María de los Lagos en 1 Mayo 1683 ante Don Alonso de Navarrete Argote, Escribano Público, el Regidor Martín Vázquez Zermeño era casado con María Rodríguez de Portugal, su hija y de Anna de Portugal, su esposa. Anna era hija de Juan Gómez de Portugal y de María de Yssasi y Cuevas. Los padres de Juan Gómez de Portugal fueron Diego Gómez de Portugal y María García de Arrona, también conocida como María de Arrona. Los padres de esta última fueron Juan de Arrona y Angelina García de Miranda. O sea que María Rodríguez de Portugal era bisnieta de María de Arrona. Probablemente por eso la llamaban igual que a su bisabuela.
>
> Martín Vázquez Zermeño fue Regidor de Santa María de los Lagos y según tengo entendido, fue también vecino y Regidor de Aguascalientes. El Alférez Francisco Rodríguez se refiere a él como su yerno y menciona que era casado con su hija María Rodríguez de Portugal. Tengo entendido que los padres de Martín Vázquez Zermeño fueron Juan Vázquez Zermeño y Theresa de Anda Altamirano, y que los padres de Juan Vázquez Zermeño fueron Martín Vázquez Zermeño y Anna García de Miranda. Según Jaime Holcombe, los padres de este último fueron Juan Vázquez Zermeño y Elvira Gil de Lara. Creo que la confusión proviene de los nombres que se repitieron por varias generaciones. Todavía no he averiguado cual era el parentesco entre Anna García de Miranda y Angelina García de Miranda, esposa de Juan de Arrona.
>
> Con respecto a la línea de Martín Vázquez Zermeño y María Rodríguez de Portugal, hasta hoy empiezo a seguirla gracias a Celestino Villalobos.
>
> BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Daniel, Miguel, Jorge, Celestino, Paco

I think you're right, Daniel. Juan Gómez de Portugal married María de
Ysasi, not María de Ysasi y Cuevas. In his final will and testament, the
Alférez Mayor Francisco Rodríguez, who married their daughter Ana de
Portugal, mentions that his mother-in-law María de Ysasi was married to
Pedro Arias Pardo, her second husband. Juan Gómez de Portugal died 22 Oct
1640, and his widow María de Ysasi remarried almost two years later, on 8
Jun 1642. If María de Ysasi's parents were Juan de Ysasi and Sebastiana
Muñoz, as Jorge told us, then the surname "Cuevas" after "Ysasi" makes no
sense. Tha María de Ysasi baptized 30 Aug 1617 fits the timeline. Could
you give me the source for that date? I could not find it in FamilySearch.
I already have the information about her niece María de Ysasi y Cuevas,
daughter of Francisco Ysasi (María de Ysasi's brother) and Elvira Germana de
Cuevas Celis. Does all of this make any sense?

BILL FIGUEROA

Comentario

Edgar Olguin Diaz
UN CORDIAL SALUDO
POR CASUALIDAD EN TUS ARCHIVOS NO TENDRAS LA DISPENSA DE 3 Y 4 GRADO DE CONSANGRIDAD
DEL MARTIN BASQUEZ SERMEÑO Y MARIA RODRIGUEZ PORTUGAL CASADOS EL 07 DE MAYO DE 1681
EN LAGOS DE MORENO JALISCO.
TE LO AGRADECERIA MUCHO
SALUDOS
QUE TENGAS UN BUEN DIA

Comentario

Gracias; Miguel, Bill, Jorge, Daniel y a todos por su participación. Me quede corto, con tanto material, tan edificante.
 
Miguel
Estuve viendo, el resumen que hiciste de los Vasquez Zermeño y Vasquez Lara y es entonces ahora, que los parrafos de la Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara con información con relación a los Zermeños, tienen mas sentido para mi. Precisamente hace una semana empece de nuevo, a reconstruir el rompecabezas de la familia  Zermeño-Vasquez. Tu información me parece bastante acertada, eres la respuesta a mi oración. Gracias.
 
2844
 
Guadalajara, Jalisco. Septiembre 3 de 1701. Exp. 189.- Aspirante a Ordenes Menores.- Juan Vázquez Zermeño, Colegial del Colegio de San Juan Baptista de esta ciudad, hijo legítimo de Martín Vázquez Zermeño y de María Rodríguez de Portugal; pretende ordenarse de la primera clerical tonsura y cuatro grados. Declaración del Lic. Don Nicolás de Lesama Altamirano y Reinoso, Abogado de la Real Audiencia de este reino: Que de sus abuelos tan solamente conoció a Francisco Rodríguez,materno. Presentó su partida de bautismo, de la Villa de Santa María de los Lagos, con fecha 6 de Septiembre de 1684, donde consta que fué bautizado en la Hacienda de la Estancia Grande, siendo sus padrinos el Alférez Mayor Francisco Rodríguez y su mujer Doña Ana Gómez de Portugal, 5 fojas.
 
Celestino.
 
 
 
 
 

Comentario

Este Juan Vasquez Zermeno caso a Maria de Lomelin o Blancarte el 19 de nobiembre de 1701 en Ayo el Chico.
Daniel

To learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org

> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:22:59 -0800
> From: celestinovillalobo@sbcglobal.net
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Diego Zermeño
>
> Gracias; Miguel, Bill, Jorge, Daniel y a todos por su participación. Me quede corto, con tanto material, tan edificante.
>
> Miguel
> Estuve viendo, el resumen que hiciste de los Vasquez Zermeño y Vasquez Lara y es entonces ahora, que los parrafos de la Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara con información con relación a los Zermeños, tienen mas sentido para mi. Precisamente hace una semana empece de nuevo, a reconstruir el rompecabezas de la familia Zermeño-Vasquez. Tu información me parece bastante acertada, eres la respuesta a mi oración. Gracias.
>
> 2844
>
> Guadalajara, Jalisco. Septiembre 3 de 1701. Exp. 189.- Aspirante a Ordenes Menores.- Juan Vázquez Zermeño, Colegial del Colegio de San Juan Baptista de esta ciudad, hijo legítimo de Martín Vázquez Zermeño y de María Rodríguez de Portugal; pretende ordenarse de la primera clerical tonsura y cuatro grados. Declaración del Lic. Don Nicolás de Lesama Altamirano y Reinoso, Abogado de la Real Audiencia de este reino: Que de sus abuelos tan solamente conoció a Francisco Rodríguez,materno. Presentó su partida de bautismo, de la Villa de Santa María de los Lagos, con fecha 6 de Septiembre de 1684, donde consta que fué bautizado en la Hacienda de la Estancia Grande, siendo sus padrinos el Alférez Mayor Francisco Rodríguez y su mujer Doña Ana Gómez de Portugal, 5 fojas.
>
> Celestino.
>
>
>
>
>

Comentario

Edgar Olguin Diaz
HOLA
CELESTINO VILLALOBOS
UN CORDIAL SALUDO
POR CASUALIDAD EN TUS ARCHIVOS NO TENDRAS LA DISPENSA DE 3 Y 4 GRADO DE CONSAGRIDAD
DEL MARTIN BASQUEZ SERMEÑO Y MARIA RODRIGUEZ PORTUGAL CASADOS EL 07 DE MAYO DE 1681
EN LAGOS DE MORENO JALISCO.
TE LO AGRADECERIA MUCHO
SALUDOS
QUE TENGAS UN BUEN DIA

Da Maria de Olibarri the wife of Dn Pedro de Abalos Bracamonte 1666

Hello Group,

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi Rose:

Thanks for sharing the document you found what a source! I have seen her as Ulibarri or Olibarri de la Cueva.
Their oldest son Alonso was baptized 22 January 1645 in Compostela who would become the I Conde de Miravalle
and a Caballero de Santiago.

Maria's husband Pedro de Avalos y Bracamonte was baptized in Guadalajara 15 May 1615.

I was once told that since Compostela was the capital of Nueva Galicia many people all over
would go there so this might explain why so many people from all over are found in Compostela.
This could be where pre 1600 Aguascalientes baptisms may exist or Guadalajara. Maybe marriages
too.

Thanks again for sharing,

Daniel Méndez Camino

Comentario

Glad I was happy to share some "good stuff". I have a Bracamonte line in Tepic and have a feeling I will evenually be able to piece this Bracamonte family together to my line.

Another great source of the Guadalajara Bracamonte's is from Guillermo Garmendia Leal's book "Fundadores de Nueva Galicia, Guadalajara Tomo I."

Rose

Comentario

Thanks Rose,

I guess we should all provide this type of information. While most of my
research is focused on Nochistlan, quite often some of the records are for
people from Juchipila, Jalpa, Yahualica, Mexticacan, Teocaltiche and
Aguascalientes and it would also be helpful to provide the time span and the
film #.

Alicia,
San Jose, Ca

________________________________
From: "rosehardy@hotmail.com"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Mon, April 11, 2011 8:51:23 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Da Maria de Olibarri the wife of Dn Pedro de Abalos
Bracamonte 1666

Hello Group,

Sorry I've been out of touch with the group, but I've been researching elsewhere
in Mexico this past year. As of late I have been doing research in Nayarit
working on my Rios Californio line. For the past few weeks I've been reading
Tepic burials and in the past week Compostela burials.

Tonight I found Da Maria de Olibarri, the wife of Dn Pedro de Abalos (Davalos)
Bracamonte. The document can be found on image 10 Compostela, Nayarit Entierros
1663-1797. This family is from Guadalajara from what I can tell from the other
information I've found. The document lists their 7 children, Alo (Alfonso I
believe), Francisca, Nicolas, Pedro, Leonor, Diego and Madgalena. Maria was
buried in 1666.

While searching Tepic and Compostela burials I'm coming across a lot of people
from Guadalajara, a few from Aguascalientes, Nochitlan, and a few from Jalos.
Just giving you all a heads up.

Hope this helps....

Rose Gonzales-Hardy

Comentario

I also forgot to mention the film I was looking at with the majority of people from Guadlalajara is Tepic, Nayarit burials 1747-1807. I have no film numbers to provide, as all my research is now done at familysearch.org and am looking at the digitized documents online.

I forgot to mention I was seeing people from Colotlan also. Since my research is new in Nayarit, from what I gather it was the frontier province of Colotlan, Jalisco.

Hope this info helps my Nueva Galicia cousins.

Rose

Comentario

Does anyone know how/if Pedro de Avalos Bracamonte might be related to Domingo Ortiz Bracamonte, who was married to Antonia (Flores de) Aréchiga? They are my 8th gg-grandparents and all I know is that they were from Cocula de Avalos and ended up in Mexticacan.

Any leads would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Comentario

Hi Claudia:

The earliest Ortiz de Bracamontes in my archives is the following:

Domingo Ortiz de Bracamonte married Antonia Ines Camacho who married 29
december 1686 in Guadalajara. I have her as daughter of Diego Flores de Arechiga
and Catalina Bravo Camacho who looks like she may have ties to Mexico City around
the same time period where lots of Bravo-Camacho pop out.

I would order the record I think I got this from a dispensa lots of Flores de Arechiga
appear in the book Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara.

Hope this bit helps some way.

Daniel Méndez Camino

Comentario

Daniel, thanks so much for the lead on Domingo Ortiz de Bracamonte from Guadalajara...he seems to be my ancestor, as I've just searched and found that they had three children baptized in Cocula...and my line is included.

I really appreciate your input and the kernels of clues that you share with this group. Much appreciated on my behalf.

Saludos,
-Claudia

Comentario

I love it when I read messages like this, BINGO, someone provided a lead and
opened a door to the other.
I emember back on the days, the feeling I felt when this same thing happend
to me. It is great!
Thank you ALL for helping one another
Sylvia

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:35 PM, wrote:

> Daniel, thanks so much for the lead on Domingo Ortiz de Bracamonte from
> Guadalajara...he seems to be my ancestor, as I've just searched and found
> that they had three children baptized in Cocula...and my line is included.
>
> I really appreciate your input and the kernels of clues that you share with
> this group. Much appreciated on my behalf.
>
> Saludos,
> -Claudia

Comentario

Can anyone report whether—or what—is the connection between Domingo Ortiz Bracamonte who married Antonia Flores de Aréchiga, two of whose daughters married in San Felipe, Cuquio (Gerónima in 1715, Antonia Juliana in 1716) and Joseph Ortis de Bracamonte, married to Anna Basques, whose daughter, Andrea de Guadalupe, was born in San Felipe in 1714? One would assume, and start looking for, a connection as obvious as this one.

Lawrence Bouett
Orinda, CA

Comentario

My wife descends from Domingo Ortiz Bracamonte and Antonia Flores de Aréchiga. Antonia’s mother descends from Luisa Ulloa Mendoza and Diego Zuñiga. Here is where I hit a couple of brick walls.

1) Domingo Hortis de Bracamonte
2) Diego Zuñiga ( have seen two different sets of parents in secondary sources)
3) Tomas Flores de Arechiga

My wife descends from the marriage of Diego Doming) Ortiz Bracamonte and Barbara Infante. They are third cousins as they both descend from Sebastian Vasquez De Lara and Luisa Villaseñor.

Does anyone have information on Sebastian Vasquez De Lara and Luisa Villaseñor?

Luisa Ulloa Mendoza’s parents are Gonzalo Nuñez de Sotomayor and Bernardina Mendoza (Pantoja)
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci

ALONSO DE ESTRADA, HIJO DE …

Several of us descend from Alonso de Estrada, royal treasurer and colonial governor of Nueva España, during the time of Cortés.

Comentarios

Comentario

I had previously stated that I didn’t descend from Alonso Estrada and his wife. What I should have said was that I had not found him in my ancestral lines. Today I discovered that my wife and I both descend from Alonso Estrada and his wife Marina Gutierrez De la Cavalleria.

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

About six months ago I worked on the genealogy of my oldest sister’s mother-in-law. I had previously worked on my sister’s father-in-law’s family tree many many years ago, but had not worked on her mother-n-law’s family. I was surprised to discover many interesting stories on her mother-in law’s relatives as they were also deeply involved in Mexican Politics. It turns out that this research now connects to my research on Alonso Estrada. Today I discovered that an illegitimate son of King Ferdinand II of Aragon is an ancestor of Enrique, who is a second cousin of my brother-in-law. The two families merged together into the same picture.

I immediately thought that if we were to compare the dna from Enrique to Manny Hermosillo, who is a descendant of Alonso Estrada, then we could finally prove with dna that Alonso Estrada was king Ferdinand II’s illegitimate son. I even sent an email to Enrique asking him to provide his dna so that we could compare it to a descendant of Alonso Estrada. The problem is that after sending the email, it hit me that the dna comparison is going to be complicated because Luisa Estrada’s mother, who is repeatedly related to King Ferdinand II, is also related to the wife of the other illegitimate son of King Ferdinand II as they all descend from King Alfonso XI De Castilla

If Enrique and Manny both provide the dna results, then it would still be interesting to compare dna samples as they would both be related through the wives of the two illegitimate sons of King Ferdinand II. But because of this connection, it would not prove descent from King Ferdinand II. I presently believe that in order to prove the relationship of Alonso Estrada to king Ferdinand, we need to also compare a line that descends from another descendant of King Ferdinand II that is not so closely related to Luisa Estrada’s mother.

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Manny,

Do you descend from them based on ancestors discussed on the forum or through other ancestors? Just curious because I have a hard enough time finding my first ancestors for each line in Mexico, let alone making the leap to Spain! I'm jealous!

Alex

Comentario

Hi Alex,

No, it's through other lines. I've got a few gateway ancestors, among them Diego de Guevara y Tovar (early regidor of Mexico City) and Juan Alonso de Sosa (Alonso de Estrada's successor and son-in-law). For the most part, I usually track my Mexican ancestors back to the first one to arrive on the continent and stop there, but there's been a lot of work done on these guys, being historical figures. When I have more time, I'll work on the earlier Spanish stuff.

Hope you're well!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comentario

Hi Manny,

If you keep sending me pearls I will never finish my book! Another thread that you sent me shows another connection in Spain. As you already know, a big part of my book is to show how many of the families are already related before they came over to the Americas. Not only has your find provided more confirmation, in my eyes, that Alonso Estrada is King Ferdinands’s son, you also have helped me connect another one of your ancestors to Alonso Estrada’s maternal line. This first wife of Juan Fernandez Estrada s the sister of another of your ancestors. Even the people who disagree with the conclusion that king Ferdinand is the father of Alonso Estrada will find much information in my book as I provide Juan Fernandez Estrada’s and his wife’s ancestry, and show how they are connected to our other ancestors.

Happy President’s day,
May we thank God for the many great presidents that we have had in the past such as Lincoln, Washington, both Roosevelt’s, both Adams, and Jefferson. Many (most) of these presidents are also distantly related to us as their ancestors were distant cousins of Alfonso XI De Castilla because they all descended from king Henry II Plantagenet and Queen Eleanor of Aquitaine, King and Queen Of England.

Thanks again Manny for your many contributions to my research,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Hi Manny
Do you descend from Juan Alonso De Sosa Estrada y Mariana De Guevara Barrios? If so, I would really love to see the line of descent from them and add it to my book. I have done much work on their ancestors. I have them connecting to many families.

Thanks,
Rick

Comentario

For those of you that thought that I turned over the cart when I said that the dispensa provided evidence shows that King Ferdinand was the illegitimate father of Alonso Estrada, you will be even more surprised, shocked, as I was, to discover that King Ferdinand’s first marriage to Isabella was not sanctioned by the church due to the political climate and that they married by forging their names on a marriage dispensation that had been written for another couple. They, therefore, were never legally married by the Catholic Church. How ironic since they are commonly known as the Catholic King and Queen. Many English, French, and Spanish nobles, including heads of state from other countries were against the marriage alliance of these two. This placed the Vatican in a corner as they didn’t want to anger so many powerful people. This dispensation was not disclosed as fraudulent because while the Vatican knew it was forged, it relieved them from entering into the political fight over the marriage as the dispensation was signed by the previous authority.
You will also be surprised that Pedro Gonzalez De Lara was recognized as Queen Uracca’s husband and that Fernan Perez Hurtado was recognized as legitimate. The Hurtado surname was not because he was born in secrecy but to distinguish him from the many other distinguished noblemen at that time also named Fernan Perez.

Rick A. Ricci
Source: Mygenes2000

Comentario

There was not just one ambassador of King Ferdinand’s to England. During that time period An ambassador was usually an appointment for a relatively brief mission. Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother’s appointment as ambassador was for a much longer time period due to the nature of his negotiations. This made his brother more well known as an ambassador, which then led many genealogists to mistakenly claim that he was the father of Luisa Estrada.

Rick A. Ricci
Source: mygenes2000

Comentario

Hi Rick,

Yes, in a hurry to seal their union, the Catholic Monarchs procured a papal bull, supposedly signed by the previous pope, that allowed Fernando II to marry any eligible princess related to him within 3 degrees. Very convenient! Nevertheless, their marriage was dispensed and legitimized in 1471 with the Bula de Simancas, issued by the following pope.

As far as “turning over the cart” re: Alonso de Estrada’s paternity: I’ve still seen nothing that convinces me that the 2 limpiezas I’ve cited are forgeries. To paraphrase Jaime Holcombe, “As Juan de Arrigunaga used to say: ‘Una genealogia que no está probada con documentos fidedignos, es pura vacilada.’ (“A genealogy that isn’t proven with unimpeachable documents is a pure joke.”). But recognizing the possible non-existence of primary sources explicitly stating that Fernando II is Alonso de Estrada’s father, I’m willing to wait until the release of MG2K, to see your work, and to see how the pieces fall into place. So, please please please don’t feel forced to reveal anything here (i.e. “spoilers”), that you might want to save for the publication of your book. I am truly looking forward to it. Flip that cart for us! :)

Re: the Alvarado limpieza, though Maria Hernandez Hidalgo’s genealogy has holes in it, I don’t think they have anything to do with her age or disability: my mother is 88 years old and half-deaf, and can still rattle off names of people she hasn’t seen in over 70 years - and their family members. Maria Hernandez cited what she heard from her father, and from her aunts that raised her after his death, which would explain any holes. Besides, she wasn’t the only witness who claimed Juan Fernandez was Alonso de Estrada’s father, nor was she the first (she just gave the most complete genealogy).

I downloaded that limpieza a couple of years ago, and I have extensive notes, which I just located. The investigation was done in May 1584 in Ciudad Real, here’s a complete list of witnesses and their ages:

ANTONIO GALIANO BERMUDES 60
FRAY HIERONIMO TREBIÑO 60
BACHILLER JUAN DE AREVALO 67
FRANCISCA MORAN 60
MATHEO DEL SAL 57
JUAN MEXIA DE LOAISA 70+
ANTONIO DE POBLETE 70+
JUAN POBLETE DE LA MORA 60+
RODRIGO DE MORA BAÑEZ DE LA SERDA 71
GERONIMO DE HERRERA 60+
PRIORA DE GRACIA FRANCª MEXIA 50
ALº DE ROJAS PROCURADOR SINDICO DESTA CIUDAD 52
MARI HERNANDEZ HIDALGO 70
DON FRANCISCO DE GAMES 50
LICENᵈº ALº MANÇANO CURA 40
ALº DE LA CAMARA DE OCES 60
BERNARDINO DE VALDELAMAR 61
LOPE FERNANDEZ CARRILLO 70
JUO RODRIGUEZ DE LLAMA 70
JUAN DE LARA 75
LUIS DE POBLETE OLIVER 40
ANTONIO FERNANDEZ TORRES ESCRIBANO PUBLICO 45
ANA PRADO 70
FRAY DIEGO DE HERRERA 35
BACHILLER JUAN DE AREVALO
ANTONIO DE OLIVER 50
LUIS BERMUDES 66
JUAN RODRIGUEZ DE GUZMAN 59
PEDRO VILLAFRANCO 90
LUIS DE FIGUEROA 60+
JUAN DE COTILLO 80
CRISTOBAL PEREZ FAMILIAR DEL STO OFICIO 74
PEDRO CASADO CLERIGO 74
JUAN DE VILLAFRANCA QUIROGA 58
PASCUAL RRUIZ DE LA FRANCA 50
GASPAR DE JAEN 50
ANDRES ABBAD FAMILIAR DEL STO OFICIO 50

Though the Alonso de Estrada genealogy might still be dubious, it does name supposed descendants of Juan Fernandez’s brother, which might help you shore up your work. And then there’s a wealth of info on the Gutierrez de la Caballeria, including mention of ejecutorias that named them hidalgos and “Cristianos Viejos,” allowing them to hold offices with the Crown and the military and religious orders. Rick, how can I get these to you? (and to others: please don’t ask; I plan on using these down the line, and I offer these only to Rick, to help him with his book. Thank you for understanding :).

Here’s the limpieza of Guiomar de Avalos y Bocanegra cc Juan de Alcocer.
Which includes that of her grandfather, Juan Gutierrez Bocanegra.

And here’s the limpieza of Geronima de Mazariegos cc Pedro de Heredia, taking her back to Fernando Hidalgo cc Francisca de Mazariegos (which confirms Maria Hernandez Hidalgo’s testimony, regarding the Mazariegos’ link to this line).

By the way, I agree with Rick that “Hidalgo” isn’t the surname, but the family’s rank; throughout the Alvarado Limpieza, witnesses refer to Doña Marina’s father as “Juan Gutierrez Lanero,” one witness explaining that that was his trade (a “lanero” deals in wool).

Un abrazo,
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comentario

Hi Manny,

The first dispensation used for Ferdinand's and Isabela's wedding was originally not for them . The previous pope didn’t write a blank dispensa for Ferdinand, especially when there was so much discussion over who should be the rightful ruler of Castilla. Ferdinand had been engaged to marry someone else when the previous Pope was in power. England and France were also sticking their hand in the pot, and the current Pope was stuck with his back against a wall, knowing that whatever decision he made was going to be met with displeasure by many of the people. So the Pope did nothing and let it play out. It worked to the Popes favor that he didn’t have to decide anything until much later. Dispensing and legitimizing the marriage in 1471 wouldn’t have been necessary if the first one had been legitimate.

The two limpiezas that you are saying are proof of the identity of Alonso Estrada’s father raises many questions as they are not discussing the same Estrada family. The two men mentioned are not the same people, so both limpienzas cannot be considered in conjunction as proof of your point that he is not the son of King Ferdinand. The limpeza that you found, and mention in this thread has the same Estrada family that I have as Alonso Estrada's maternal ancestors. some genealogists have the father listed in the other limpieza as the husband that Luisa Estrada married years after her relationship with King Ferdinand. This would make him Alonso Estrada's stepfather, not his biological father. But this husband of Luisa Estrada did not raise him as he was raised in King Ferdinand's court. Alonso Estrada actually was closer to King Ferdinand than his other illegitimate son. Alfonso D'Aragon.

When Charles was in power, he kept in contact with his two uncles, Alonso Estrada (aka Alonso Duque Estrada) and Alfonso d’Aragon and furthered their political careers. He gave both of them political power and asked them to help run things. Alfonso D’Aragon exercised his political power as he rose up in the ranks of the church.

The witnesses quoted in limpiezas written many years later giving different versions versus the statements that were made during King Ferdinand’s and Alonso’s lifetimes is the heart of this dispute. What I can give you definitely is the family tree of the Juan Fernandez Estrada from the second limpieza along with his first wife’s name and ancestors.

Some may argue that King Ferdinand would not have named two of his illegitimate sons by the same name as Alonso and Alfonso are variations of the same name, but they both had different complete names as one was known as Alonso Estrada, aka Alonso Duque Estrada, while the other was known as Alfonso D'Aragon. King Ferdinand also named two of his illegitimate daughters by the same name, Maria.

Alonso Estrada was not a "Duque". An ancestor of Alonso"s was nicknamed "Duque" without holding the title. When he inherited the "Estrada Tower" he then was known as "Duque Estrada." This Duque Estrada family was not a merging of the Duque family with the Estrada family as some have claimed. The Duque Estrada family intermarried often with cousins marrying cousins, and uncles marrying nieces so that may be why some people may have come to the conclusion that there was a merging of two family surnames to make one new one.

Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

These inquest records supported by some researchers are in constant dispute.

Ricci has shared great examples of why. This is what we know from the inquest records we have someone trying to prove their purity of blood of neither Moor nor Jew.

In doing this he would have to prove he wasn't from Jewish descent decades upon decades later. There is no one alive from this time who really knew his relatives. Tall order. Here is something else he would have to prove; he had to prove he had a credible witness which even the inquest was not satisfied he had done.

The witness according to the entries was cited repeatedly by the inquisition that she was very old, blind, and could not remember but thought her relatives told her that the mother was was a so and so, perhaps Oliver. The witness upon inquiry continues to repeat she really didn't know she couldn't remember.

When asked if there was Jewish blood she again resorts to I don't know, I don't remember , I couldn't say. We have to remember this witness is working on behalf of a person trying to prove his purity of blood however LYING to the inquest would have been disastrous for her. Hiding Jews could be punishable.

This inquest record is weak at best, to prove his true line of descent. However from the records we can gather that even the witness could not even remember the names. There could also been some deception involved on the petitioners part in getting her to speak on his behalf. Surely he discussed it with her? Surely he knew she was blind and had memory loss. Surely she told him she did not remember and could not recall the names before he decided to request her as a witness? ;)

Perhaps the vague underpinnings of her testimony as unreliable as they were was better for him as his Jewish heritage could be neither confirmed or disputed. Instead his admittance would have to rely on his community standing and those who knew the petitioner well as being a pious Christian.

If so, getting her to testify was a stroke of genius.

My opinion is to disregard the inquest as proof. I would go over ALL stories and personal accounts of Don Alonso de Estrada that you can find. Go over all documents written about him and his relatives (Some are not scanned yet). Develop a personality profile of the man compare it to his rivals. This will help you build a larger picture of the society in which he lived, his motivations and how people interacted with Alonso.

I too do not believe in the "rags to riches" mythos. It would be near impossible that lower nobility could have risen to his ranks given the economic caste system even within the aristocracy. It would be equally shocking that Cortez would not have tried to kill him.

Cortez did not have a problem killing lesser nobles he killed his own wife! It rocked the New World. His wife was a high standing aristocrat with high ranking noble parents. There were even witnesses that immediately came that attested that he was in the room with her when she was screaming and her necklace was ripped from her neck when they found her dead. Cortez thought nothing of doing this to a high ranking lesser noble and got away with it in court.

The fact Alonso was appointed to oversee Cortez says a tremendous amount about how the court/ King viewed Cortez. They needed to keep him in line and Alonso was the way to make sure he did stay in line. In turn Cortez loathed and despised Alonso. In fact Cortez got so out of line Alonso threatened him and said "I am the son of the King!" you will obey. Cortez known for going after rivals noble or not, backed down.

Let that sink in. :D

This is why it is important to read as much as you can and create a profile of each individual taking full account of mores of the day. This in turn I believe creates a bigger picture and a better understanding of what is really going on in the records.

I hope this helps

Comentario

Dear Ana,

I appreciate your comments and support. Though I am already convinced that Alonso Estrada is the son of King Ferdinand and Luisa Estrada, it is important to continue adding information as the more puzzle pieces we add, the clearer the picture.

I am very interested in obtaining the document in Spanish records papers which refers to Alonso Estrada as being the "Kings little sin" and any other information on this subject.

I don’t descend from Alonso Estrada, but I do descend from the Gutierrez De Cavalleria.

Thank you,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Hi Ana

I too am interested in seeing the source for "the king's little sin" and also for the quote "I am the son of the king". I think you make an intersting argument in your post - the broader perpective of Estrada's relationship with Cortez.

For anyone else who might be interested, Hugh Thomas - in his book Conquest - has a lot of information on the murder of Cortez's first wife, some in text and some in footnotes. There is info on Alonso de Estrada in it as well, and also in one of Thomas' other books "The Golden Empire". (Ana, maybe your quote come from Thomas? My books are at home and I am out of town, so I can't check.)

Regards,
Denise

Comentario

Rags to riches stories involve skill, talent, work, or luck. Usually it will involve all of them. Alonso Estrada was a violent, aggressive man. He became treasurer because his nephew, Charles V, appointed him. Charles V took care to set up both of his illegitimate uncles, Alonso Estrada and Alfonso d’Aragon.

Alonso Estrada was born to privilege and acted like it. I don’t know of any non royal family member arriving with 12 of their own household slaves during this age. He was not a capable administrator and did not make it to the level that he did on his own merits. If he had been a son of Juan Fernandez Estrada then he would had to work a little harder on his personal and diplomatic skills. His maternal grandfather, Juan Fernandez Estrada, was a very talented man, with top diplomatic skills. His maternal grandfather’s brother also had excellent diplomatic skills as he too was an ambassador. The brothers were negotiators, deal makers.

If Alonso was not King Ferdinand’s son than why would they pay him almost twice what they paid Cortez when Alonso was just a treasurer.

Alonso Estrada was not very good at managing money even though he was a treasurer and eventually lost most of his money.

When my mother told me that we were related to Santo Toribio she said that he was my grandfather’s second cousin. My research shows him to be a third cousin. My mother often claims someone is more closely related than they are. When my mother claimed that both of my grandfather’s were closely related through through their Franco lines because both of them had mothers from the same Franco family, she was mistaken. Yes, they both had mothers that had the surname Franco, but the Francos were two branches that were not closely related. My dad and maternal grandmother were third cousins, but my mother had not known of that relationship. My mom mistakenly claimed that my first cousin Yvonne married her second cousin. It was not true, but they are third cousins. It is only through solid research that I have been able to find the exact relationships. When they did the genealogical investigation of Alonso Estrada for the first dispensation they asked someone like my mother who claimed a closer relationship than she actually had with Alonso Estrada. The person that she stated was Alonso Estrada’s father is not a close biological relative of Alonso Estrada. The person mentioned as Alonso’s father in the second dispensation has different parents than the parents mentioned in the first dispensation. There is no way that the paternal ancestry discussed in the two dispensations line up. The second dispensation does identify the correct Estrada family, but I repeat what I wrote earlier in this blog, Juan Fernandez Estrada is his maternal grandfather, and his first wife is well known and came from a family that was closely related to King Ferdinand II “el Catolico” and to the Villaseñor family that immigrates to Nueva Galicia. We know that the second dispensation does identify the correct Estrada line because it identifies juan Fernandez Estrada as the second son of the two brothers that moved from Asturias to Ciudad Real. The two brothers were both diplomats who became ambassadors for King Ferdinand II. Some genealogists have mistakenly claimed that juan’s brother, or their father is Alonso Estrada’s father. Or they mistakenly merge the brothers into one person. They also have mistakes as to the origin of this line of Estradas.

Rick A. Ricci
Source: mygenes2000

Comentario

Juan Fernandez Estrada, Alonso Estrada’s maternal grandfather and his brother were both ambassadors for King Ferdinand of Aragon. Many historians and genealogists have confused the two, or merged them into one person. But they are definitely two people. Juan Fernandez Estrada was the ambassador to the Vatican. Juan was sent to the Vatican immediately after the expulsion of the moors from Granada.

Both of the brothers had a lot of power as they both had King Ferdinand’s ear. Juan’s brother exercised a lot power in his assignments, and his descendants continued working for the future kings of Spain exercising much influence.

Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000

Comentario

Rick,

Awesome! I am looking forward to see how you connected the dots, since nobody else has bothered to do so! I’ll be buying a copy of MyGenes, so I can wait.

The book you’re looking to move, is that the Revista de Indias you’re talking about, with the Castro y Tosi article, based on the 1585 Jorge Alvarado limpieza?

Thanks!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comentario

Manny,

During Alonso Estrada’s lifetime, it was common knowledge that he was the illegitimate son of King Ferdinand and Luisa Estrada, the daughter of an ambassador and his first wife. Alonso Estrada would often boast of being his son. In early history books Alonso de Estrada was identified as an illegitimate son of Rey don Fernando II, El Católico, of Aragón. This is mentioned by the early historiagrapher of Nueva España, Bernal Díaz del Castillo. Alonso Estrada was accustomed to a life in the court of King Ferdinand so when he arrived in Nueva España he had his 12 household servants/slaves with him.

Alonso Estrada was raised in the kings court and enjoyed priveliges that a legitimate younger son would have received. It was only because he was illegitimate that he didn’t receive even more privileges. Alonso’s mother was also known during his lifetime. The issue has been that historians and genealogists have made mistakes in identifying her father as some identify her father’s brother as her father, while others have identified her paternal grandfather as her father. Some historians and genealogists have even made the mistake of merging her father and his brother into one person. The dispensa that you found is very important as Juan Fernandez Estrada is identified as ““hijo segundo de la Casa de Estrada que bino de asturias a ciudad real.” This is very important information as there were two brothers from the Casa De Estrada that went from Asturias to Ciudad Real that were ambassadors. Juan Fernandez Estrada is identified from this dispensa as the brother that Alfonso Estrada descends from, only that he wasn’t his father like the dispensa says, he was his maternal grandfather. Some other genealogists have made the mistake of stating that Luisa is Juan Fernandez Estrada’s sister, but those same genealogists have made the additional mistake of merging the two brothers into one person. Y

The first dispensa has many errors in it as it is based on testimony of an individual who can’t recall his mothers name and doesn’t even provide accurate information on the Estrada line. The second dispensa, that one you found and address here in thiis thread, is more important in the search for the truth because, despite its errors, leads us to which of the two ambassador brothers Alonso Estrada descends from. This second dispensa also accurately describes that he is the one of two Estrada brothers that comes from Asturias to Ciudad Real. This fact is important because it confirms my information that the brothers were not one person. I have the information on their parents and their wives which I will leave for the book as that information would add many pages to this post. Many pages because if I post it then I would have to go into how they are related to the Villaseñor, the Reynoso and other families

Alonso Estrada named one of his daughters after his mother. During those times, if you named your daughter after your mother, she would also use her surname. In this case it was the same surname as his since Alonso Estrada also had his mom’s surname.

Alonso and Alfonso were interchangeable names. These names were common in the royal families in Castilla, Leon and Aragon. King Ferdinand also sired an another illegitimate son with the same first name of Alfonso. This Alfonso was known as Alfonso De Aragon and he became an archbishop of Zaragoza. This Alfonso De Aragon was also raised in the royal court and received privileges, just as Alonso Estrada did. I believe that Alfonso d’ Aragon was born first, but I have not confirmed this. What is known is that both of these illegitimate sons were born in Ferdinand’s youth when he was still a teenager. Both of these sons of Ferdinand received privileges from Ferdinand’s immediate family, cousins and uncles, so they moved up quickly in politics and assumed powerful positions at an early age.

Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci
Source: mygenes2000

Comentario

The biggest scandal in the Estrada family was not Alonso Estrada and Catalina Gutierrez Cavalleria ‘s descendants’ inquisition trials, nor was it Luisa having a child out of wedlock with King Ferdinand of Aragon. The biggest Estrada family scandal happened in the late. 1500’s and early 1600’s. The misdeeds were committed by a great grandson of Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother. This Estrada family member wrote about his scandalous behavior, letting the world know about his misdeeds. He wrote he killed his bethrowed and a friend in a jealous tantrum when he found them together in a room. His fiancé was also the daughter of his cousin. He then escaped justice when a nun fell in love with him and helped him escape from his cell. He then traveled the old world, as a soldier for hire. He eventually settled down, became a monk and wrote his memoirs.

His books are supposed to be autobiographies, and most of what he has written is true but there is a little exaggeration because some of what he claims he did was done by his father. He has merged his and his father’s lives. His father helped him write the autobiographies. He was never an orphan. His father and mother were uncle and niece

Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000

Comentario

Dear Manny,

There are portions of this family tree that are different than the other record. I believe that your finding of this record confirms my research on this family even though it clearly has some mistakes. This record correctly identifies that Alonso descends from the Juan Fernandez Estrada that was the second son the Estrada family that came over. The information that I have on on his parents and wives is concrete. The facts lead to Ambassador Juan Fernandez Estrada being Alonso Estrada’s maternal grandfather!and not his father. King Ferdinand is Alonso Estrada’s father.

King Ferdinand as an ancestor was not something many of his descendants were proud of because many of them were Jews. King Ferdinand’s expulsion of the Jews from Spain devastated many families.

Thanks again,
Rick A Ricci

Comentario

A very important piece used to unraveling the mystery is the part where Juan Fernandez Estrada is identified as ““hijo segundo de la Casa de Estrada que bino de asturias a ciudad real”. This statement is the one that brings all the other puzzle pieces that I have collected together and positively identifies who it is that we are talking about.

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Dear Manny,

Sorry to burst the bubble on the:

“It shows how a man can go from being a low-head-on-the-totem-pole holder of a señorio in Ciudad Real, to being governor of and one of the most powerful figures in one of the Crown’s newest acquisitions.”

It would have been a great “rags to riches” story, but Alonso Estrada was an illegitimate son of a king and the kings not-to-distant cousin so he had a major advantage from birth. He actually descended from royalty numerous times.

Rick A. Ricci
Source Mygenes2000

Comentario

I completely agree with you from the research that I have found Estrada threatens Cortez with "I am the son of the king" you will obey. Cortez backed down according to the text, Cortez backed down to no one. In fact Cortez got away with murdering his aristocrat wife with Royal connections and witnesses. A man of lower nobility placed ABOVE Cortez to oversee him would have soon met his end. Cortez hated the aristocracy that came from Spain to oversee him as it was harder to remove them by force.

This did not happen in the case of Estrada, despite Cortez's distinct hatred of the man and Estrada's constant threats to Cortez. Also there is a document in Spanish records papers which refer to Estrada as being the "Kings little sin" which was mentioned in a Tomo. I wonder if you have had a chance to review that one?

I am in the process of seeing if I can get my hands on it.

Comentario

Hi Denise,

I think Ana/Giest1 or whomever she was quoting confused the legends - that is how la Reina Isabel referred to the 3 bastard sons of her ally, Cardinal Pedro Gonzalez de Mendoza. She called them “los bellos pecados del cardenal.” Here's a reference: http://slroute.com/2018/05/07/leyendas_los-bellos-pecados-del-cardenal-…

As for the paternity of Alonso de Estrada, I did find a primary source that named him as Fernando’s son, which I’ll post, as soon as I’m near my home computer.

Saludos,
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comentario

Thanks Manny

, I’m looking forrward to reading about your primary source. Two great grandchildren of Alonso Estrada married, and I descend from their daughter, so I descend from Alonso Estrada twice.

It would have been impossible for Alonso Estrada to be anything other than the king of Spain to get away with the things that he did. Charles protected his uncle Alonso Estrada. During Alonso Estrada’s lifetime the only references to his father pointed to King Ferdinand II el Catolico

And the second dispensation record that you found Manny corroborates my research as to which brother was the father of Luisa Estrada.

Thanks again Manny,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Hi Rick and Manny

Thanks for your prompt responses! I agree with you Rick, that the way King Charles treated Alonso is a good clue, and then there is also Cortez´behavior toward Alonso as noted in a comment here by Giest1. So, Manny, I am really really looking forward to what you have to share :).

After focusing the past several years on my mother´s side, I am now reviewing the material I have on my paternal grandmother´s side. There is that small percent of DNA from the British Isles that has come down through her line....want to find out where it comes from.

Regards
Denise

Comentario

Hi Denise,

That little percent of British comes from a few different sources. I willl name four. First, if you descend from Spanish royalty then you have a little British DNA.. Second, when the British sided with King Pedro cruel of Castilla they left British descendants in Castilla. Some even stayed on the Iberian peninsula. Third, I traced a line from a Viking that first left descendants in France, and then they branched out to England and Spain so this line left descendants with a trace of Norwegian/Swedish, in English, French, and Spanish branches. This line intermarried with English and French before going to Spain. Fourth, Sancho Martinez de Leyva married the Isabel Plantagenet (Suffolk) illegitimate daughter of the English King. Sancho and Isabella raised their family in Castilla and many of their descendants came to Mexico. These British ancestors would only account for a very small percentage of British DNA in single digits.

King Ferdinand II had a little English DNA and so did Luisa Estrada through her mother. Luisa Estrada descends from the Viking line that left descendants that married English and French before coming to Spain. The Villaseñor and Reynoso also descend from this line. The Reynoso also descend from Sancho Martinez de Leyva and Isabel Plantagenet Suffolk.
Thanks,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Hi Rick

Many thanks for your imput! I have thought something along the same lines, but with the observation that a sibling of my grandmother had 6% British Isle genes, and us grandchildren only 1-2%, I thought perhaps there was an English/Irish/Scottish ancestor within the past 6-7 generations. If so, I could perhaps put a name on that individual, like I did with the African genes (found the mulattos on my mom´s side) But it also occured to me that repeated instances of cousins marrying cousins in colonial mexico would have kept the genes in circulation in my grandmother´s lines, as they were Spanish (according to her, "puro espanol") and not inclined to marry non-Spanish, and sometimes cousins did marry cousins, or else the bride and groom had a common ancestor from Spain way back. But then my grandmother married a man who we now know had some Native-American genes (though you wouldn´t know if you saw him) and they had a son (my father) who married a woman (my mother) with a third Native-American genes. (My brother, sister, and I all have close to a third Native American DNA.). So those British Isle genes have gotten watered down over the last 2 generations. Anyway, I will keep pouring through the info I have on my grandmother´s tree, maybe something will turn up. I know John Hawkins the pirate/hero (depending on your perspective!) left some men behind in Mexico in the later half of the 1500´s, some of them may have left their genes in the gene pool of Mexico, and perhaps hispanicised surnames (Thomas Black became Tomas Blaque, for example). And then I also have to identify which of my gateway ancestors descend from the people in you comment above :)

Regards
Denise

Comentario

Hello Denise,

I have the same small percentage of DNA. I have traced my ancestry much further than seven generations so my small percentage has to come from the endogamy of people that carried that small percentage for centuries.

In the previous post I named four examples of how people may have British DNA. I left out two others by mistake. The fifth is a woman who was the daughter of a man I only know as an Englishman “albañil” and a Castilian Jewish woman. Through their daughter, this Englishman and his Jewish Wife are the ancestors to many, many lines of nobility in Spain. I am in the process of collecting information on her descendants. Alonso Estrada’s mother descends from the “albañil inglés” and Jewish woman. Through his mother he also descends from King Pedro el Cruel de Castilla.

The first five examples Of how I have a small percentage of British DNA.

The sixth possibility is not part of my ancestry. This possibility is that you descend from one of the six English pirates that are on record as being in Mexico. The inquisition in Mexico condemned one of the English pirates, but the other five were cleared and allowed to continue living in Mexico.

Regards,
Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Sorry it took me so long to get back to everyone. I did not get an alert in my email.. I may have to change it to another one so I can see my mail unfettered.

Francisco Fernandez del Castillo states the reference is from the Inquisition (reference cited as Archivo de Inqisición, Tomo 365) it was common knowledge in Ciudad Real and Almagro that Alonso de Estrada was an illegitimate son of King Ferdinand II of Aragon and Castile (Fernandez del Castillo 399). I sent the request for the citation to one of the Universities I have not heard back whether they can provide that via E-book. "Historical Archives of the Nation in Madrid , Testimony 1501, No. 17 referred to by Fernandez del Castillo, 398-399. Sources Francisco Fernndez del Castillo, "Alonso de Estrada: Su Familia," in Memorias de la Academia Mexicana de Historia1(1942)"

I will provide the reference to Alonso himself citing he was the King's son in a fury which I read as well in my next post.

From what I read so far from you Rick is astounding! YES can't wait for that book :D If Luisa had a marriage but her son's age predated that marriage this would fill in the missing pieces. This would make her hubby the step-father not the biological father to Alonso de Estrada.

I am still working on getting that citation in the archives bear with me guys. Perhaps you will be much quicker in getting the original TOMO Fernandez del Castillo was referring to.

I definitely have more time to commit now perhaps I can get the powers that be to send a photocopy of the reference so I can dig around in the archives to find the citation. It most definitely seems that there are/were pieces of the puzzle missing regarding Alonso de Estrada.

Until we are able to verify them, the dispute will continue to rage over his paternity. So far the inquisition is less than accurate the main witness repeatedly said she could not remember over and over as you read the actual documents and it seemed even the inquisition was getting fed up with her responses in the documents. In the end his purity of blood, test remained in limbo. As for the second it appear to be the wrong Alonso? :/

Great work Rick! Great job everyone, every path must be explored thoroughly even if it is not the path we thought it was. I feel this is the way we keep our ancestors alive oh the stories they will tell.

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i've always believed that Alonso de Estrada was the son of the king. I've seen too many documents in Mexico where they try multiple times to cover up who the real parents are to avoid scandal. I think the most obvious indicator that he was the son of the king is the fact that he claimed to be the son of the king. I don't think he would be able to go around saying he was the son of the king and not get in trouble for it. And not only did he not get in trouble, he was made viceroy. It seems to me pretty obvious that he was the son of the King.

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I contacted the publisher I got the entire catalog of writing I am just now going over it. It names Alonso de Estrada's great-grandson as his main source in his own words!! It was in that record. I am scrambling trying to get the citation at least by next week so I can read the actual document. Evidently there are many, many golden nuggets in there. Francisco says most of his work came from that declaration by Estradas great-grandson. So it seems you were right on track the genealogists were confusing people. Estrada's family is exactly who we thought and who was named in the inquisition declaration transcribed by Don Francisco Fernadez de Castillo in his writing. The reference he used was not the legend Manny was referring to but actually the transcription he uses is: "Picadillo Amaroso Del Rey don Fernando el Catolico y cierta dama de la familia de los Estradas, una de mas ilustres del reino". Francisco then gives the citation. That is what I am working on right now the actual citation location. I doubt Francisco was lying or not citing his work correctly considering it was being checked by the historical society/ archive. So that possibility is not even a consideration. The final pieces you have regarding the brothers will I believe silence the nay sayers forever.

Put a fork in it this is DONE. :D I can't wait for your book!

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Found at PARES:

Supplied Title: Proceso contra Alonso de Estrada:rebelión Nueva España
Reference number: PATRONATO,217,R.2
Date of creation: 1566
Level of description: Unidad Documental Simple_en
Reference code: ES.41091.AGI//PATRONATO,217,R.2
Scope and Content: Proceso criminal formado en la Audiencia de México contra Alonso de Estrada, preso en México por participar en la rebelión de Nueva España.

Juan Alonso de Estrada (who is supposedly my ancestor) was the son of Tesorero Juan Alonso de Sosa & Doña Ana de Estrada, and grandson of Lope de Sosa & Doña Ynes de Cabrera, and of Alonso de Estrada & Doña Marina Flores de la Caballeria. In 1566, when he was about 22 years-old, Juan Alonso and his half-brother, Alonso de Cabrera, were swept up in the so-called Martin Cortes conspiracy. Their brother-in-law, Alonso de Avila Alvarado (who was married to their sister, Doña Maria de Sosa) was one of the accused ringleaders of the rebellion; along with his brother, Gil Gonzalez de Avila, Alonso de Avila was jailed and tortured, then tried and convicted, and they were both beheaded on 5 Aug 1566. Like numerous others implicated in the rebellion, the 2 Sosa brothers were also imprisoned and likely tortured.

The above cited record is Juan Alonso de Estrada’s proceso criminal. Still imprisoned in Dec 1567, he presented witnesses for his defense, who were given a series of questions, which included a limpieza de sangre up to his grandparents. Among the witnesses interviewed were Pedro Ladron de Guevara, Luis de Godoy (who said he was related to Juan Alonso de Sosa, though he didn’t know how), Antonio de Oliver, don Luis de Castilla (husband of doña Juana de Sosa, aunt of the accused), Pero Nuñez (who said he was “muy amigos” with Gobernador Alonso de Estrada), Antonio de la Cadena, and Francisco de Estrada (who said he was related to the Estrada’s, but didn’t know how).

Of interest, is what Antonio de Oliver had to say: appearing on 26 Dec 1567, he gave his age as over 60, and said that he was a native of Ciudad Real (according to Himmerich y Valencia in his “Encomenderos,” Oliver arrived in Mexico in 1523). Oliver said that he knew Juan Alonso de Estrada and his parents, and that “he knew Gobernador Alonso de Estrada, who was a native of Ciudad Real, where this witness was from, and therefore, he knew Doña Ana de Estrada, who was also from Ciudad Real.” He said that he had known Doña Ana for 47-48 years, and witnessed her marriage to Tesorero Juan Alonso de Sosa, and that during their marriage, he witnessed them give birth to- and raise as their legitimate children Lope de Sosa, doña Maria de Sosa and Juan Alonso de Estrada (note: Ana de Estrada was born around 1520, so Oliver would have known her since her birth, and she arrived in Mexico in 1535; this suggests that he had contact with this family before and after their arrival in Mexico. From his entire testimony, and seeing how Juan Alonso de Estrada called him as a witness, I get the impression that he was more than just a casual acquaintance of this family).

In his response to the 4th question of the inquiry, regarding the social rank of Juan Alonso de Estrada and his parents and grandparents (starting on image 65), Antonio de Oliver stated:

“…sabe este tº que el dho lope de sosa y el tesorero Juan alonso de sosa y el gobernador alº de estrada y Jů fernandez hidalgo vzº de ciudad real q fue padre del dho tesorero y gobernador alº de estrada fueron cavalleros y hijosdalgo notorios de sangre…”

“…this witness knows that the aforementioned Lope de Sosa and Treasurer Juan Alonso de Sosa, and Governor Alonso de Estrada, and Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, resident of Ciudad Real who was the father of the aforementioned Treasurer and Governor Alonso de Estrada, were cavalleros and hijosdalgo by virtue of lineage…”.

There’s that name again: Juan Fernandez Hidalgo. And this is from a man, native of Ciudad Real and resident in Mexico for 44 years, who was a contemporary of- and who knew Alonso de Estrada, and who apparently had continuous contact with his family. And it’s from testimony in a criminal trial against one of the grandsons of Alonso de Estrada, under the auspices of the Real Audiencia de Mexico (if any of you are wondering, none of the other witnesses mentioned Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, staying within the parameters of the question. But then, none of them mentioned Fernando II, either).

This corresponds with that established in the Alvarado limpieza, which was conducted in Ciudad Real, where several residents agreed that Juan Fernandez Hidalgo was the father of Alonso de Estrada. Just an observation: even if we disregard Antonio de Oliver’s apparent relationship with the Estrada’s, he would’ve left Ciudad Real as late as 1523, and the Alvarado interviews began in May 1584. That means that in Ciudad Real, for more than 60 years, it was public knowledge - “publica voz y fama” - that the father of Alonso de Estrada was Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, and not Fernando II, as claimed by 2 witnesses in the 1599 probanza of Francisco Pacheco de Cordoba, which was done in Mexico, and which, by the way, is the document from TOMO 365 that Geist1 mentioned. I do have a copy of that document, which I’ll be sharing in this thread when I have the time.

Stay safe, all of you, and make like a bandido and wear a mask!
Manny Díez Hermosillo

PS - Giest1: I think you dropped your fork :D

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Nice find Manny, but the other record that you found names Luisa Estradas father and correctly identifies him and his brothers arrival to Ciudad Real. That record contradicts this record. So during Alonso Estrada’s life time he is acknowledged as the king’s illegitimate son, by his own proclamations and by other authors writing at that time. And you can’t forget all of the other details in his life that only a son of the king could get away with. Alonso Estrada lived like royalty and had a high salary that regular treasurers didn’t have. He was protected even though he did not possess extraordinary skills Now his wife and her daughters did possess extraordinary skills, but Alonso Estrada was an #&*363*#* that would have been done away with by many people, not just Hernan Cortez. And it was not just King Ferdinand that protected him, Charles Also protected him. Without this protection he would have suffered great harm. The dozen servants that catered to him hand and foot was something That only A son of a Royal would have. And these were only the ones traveling with him.

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Rick wrote:

but the other record that you found names Luisa Estradas father and correctly identifies him and his brothers arrival to Ciudad Real. That record contradicts this record

The two records I posted at the beginning of this thread named Juan Fernandez Hidalgo, aka Juan Fernandez de Estrada, as the father of Alonso de Estrada. The only Luisa de Estrada mentioned in either was the daughter of Alonso de Estrada, who married Jorge de Alvarado.

As for everything else - you’ve mentioned these things several times throughout this thread, but you never name your sources. Please do, so they can be verified independently. For the most part, I am only interested in primary sources, but anything written by historians during Estrada’s lifetime would be welcomed - I just haven’t seen any. Please let me know what they are, and I will locate them.

Thanks!
Manny Díez Hermosillo

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I just wanted to let you know the citation I was referring to was in the inquisition papers that were cited as being the source saying Alonso de Estrada was in fact the result of the union of Luisa and the King are below on my last comment.

I encourage everyone to dig through the archives. The reference to the citation is listed in book it indicates the TOMO. I believe the book is listed with many Universities. One of them should have a copy we can go through it meticulously. The more eyes the better. This will be important when going through the Spanish Ministry archive in which I believe it is located.

Their references should be in their bibliography or on the bottom of the page of the reference. You will need this code to look up the original document.

All the best

Comentario

This limpieza and proof of nobility that appears to be dated 11 Dec 1608 is for a great-great granddaughter of Alonso de Estrada and Doña Marina Flores de la Caballeria. Much time has passed and information has been forgotten or intentionally changed. It is not uncommon for a great great grandchild to make an error when naming their great great grandparents. Juan Fernandez Estrada was her great great great grandfather and Luisa Estrada was her great great grandmother.

Juan Fernandez Estrada was an Hidalgo. The Hidalgo was not part of his surname. The Fernandez surname was because his father’s name was Fernando. He and his brother were close confidants of the King of Aragon, and served as ambassadors of Aragon to France and England. Juan’s mother came from the powerful Alvarez De Asturias family that also has royalty in their ancestry a couple of centuries back. Juan is married twice. His first wife is a cousin to the king as she descends from a brother of King Enrique II. Luisa Estrada is a daughter of Juan and his first wife. King Ferdinand and his distant cousin Luisa Estada are the parents of Alonso Estrada. He is given an immense salary, not for his service to the king, but because he is the king’s illegitimate son. Alonso is raised in the court of the king. His maternal cousins and nephews, descendants of Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother, stay in Spain and provide a long history of service to the kings of Spain without the enormous salary that was given to Alonso.

The mythical family tree is the one in the limpieza. Diego Fernandez Hidalgo and Maria Gonzalez de Estrada are not the parents of Juan Fernandez Estrada. Part of the limpieza is correct. Juan Fernandez Estrada is ““the second son of the House of Estrada, who came from Asturias to Ciudad Real”. But neither of his two wives is named Luisa, Luisa is his daughter. Another mistake in the limpieza is the surname of Juan’s second wife. Her surname is not Oliver, it is Ulloa. Manny already pointed out another mistake in the purported family tree on the Gutierrez Cavalleria side of the family.

For those that don’t believe me, but insist that the limpiezas provide the correct genealogy, I have a book for sale that is an “antique” in pristine condition that purports to provide evidence of his ancestry due to the limpiezas. It would be a great addition to any library of someone that believes in the limpieza.

Rick A. Riccii
Source: book Mygenes2000

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Hi Rick

You provide a lot of information, and in your posts in this thread, cite the pruebas and Mygenes2000. The story is very interesting indeed!

Could you kindly provide a link for Mygenes2000 - or else a list of the sources in that book on which your posts are based, here in this thread?

Regards
Denise

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Mygenes2000 is what I name my yet unpublished book that shows how many of the founding families were related to each other before they crossed the Atlantic Ocean.

In my book I have much more information on Alonso Fernandez Estrada’s ancestors and show how they are closely related to my Villaseñor and Reynoso ancestors that come to Nueva Galicia. The book is a huge undertaking as I connect many of the families before their crossing.

R.A. Ricci

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Hi Rick

Thank you for your prompt response. I appreciate your dedication to your research and I do look forward to reading your book, Mygenes 2000. I also appreciate that you try to put the information in the documents into an historical context. I attempt to do the same with the documents I come across which relate to my family.

In your post of Sun, 2019-01-13 20:34 - ALONSO ESTRADA, you kindly provide 12 pieces of information. Since your book is not yet published, I must ask you for a few specifics on the bits I feel can be relatively easily handled (if you use footnotes or other standard citation system in your book) - sources for the following:

1. that Juan Fernandez de Estrada's first wife, "is a cousin to the king as she descends from a brother of King Enrique II.”
2. Luisa Estrada as a daughter of Juan and his first wife.
3. that neither of Juan’s two wives is named Luisa - so, what are their names?
4. The surname of Juan’s second wife. You state, “Her surname is not Oliver, it is Ulloa.” I looked at the 1608 document and I concur with Manny that the name there is Oliver. You must have seen Ulloa somewhere else?

One one of my family lines, I descend from Alonso de Estrada, so naturally I am interested in who his parents are. And as a researcher, I would of course like to see the sources you have used.

Regards
Denise

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Genealogist Manny Diez Hermosillo contributed greatly to my Villaseñor research in Nueva Galicia. His contributions led to many threads that helped further along my research in Spain. Many other genealogists have also contributed to this research.

I compiled much information on the Villaseñor ancestor families in Spain. Mannys contribution to my families Villaseñor ancestral lines contributed to my finding Manny’s Estrada ancestral lines in Spain. Luisa’s mom is a daughter of one of these families. Juan Fernandez Estrada’s wife’s family is well documented by me. There is no question about Juan Fernandez’s first wife, or her ancestry. Luisa’s mom’s family was not Jewish. It was the Estrada y Gutierrez deCavalleria descendants of Catalina and Alonso Estrada that tried to hide their Jewish faith. Luisa’s siblings, nephews and cousins were Catholic, with at least one of them an official of the inquisition, and another becoming a priest. Juan Fernandez Estrada’s brother had three grandchildren that married people that descended from royalty.

I hope to have a book out in the near future so please be patient.

Thank you,
Rick A. Ricci

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Dear Manny,

I owe you big time for the many times that you have helped me with my research. And this is another great find by you. However, I disagree that Juan Fernandez De Estrada is his father.

The genealogy that he was the son of The king seemed like a legend to me also. I even bought an original copy of the book that refutes that he was son of the king. Over the years I repeatedly stated that Juan Fernandez De Estrada was his father based on the argument put forward by this book. The problem is that when I researched the issue I discovered that it has some false information. This second genealogy that you found is based on the “ made up family tree “ that tried to hide that his mother was a mistress of the king. Her having an illegitimate child was an embarrassment to her family. Later on the family tried to hide its Jewish origins.

If juan Fernandez De Estrada is proven to be his father then this very old “book” that I have is worth some money. It is an original book and is in great shape even though it is not a hard cover book. So if Juan Fernandez De Estrada is his father I stand to make some money. There are only few copies of this book. Not only is it one of a few, I most likely have the one that is in the best condition since it does not have any folds or damage. The paper and ink used is proof of it being an original. It is in pristine condition.

Financially it would be great for me that Juan Fernandez De Estrada is his father, because then I would not feel guilty selling this book.

The Estrada family came from family with mixed old Christian and conversó ancestry. They were associated with the king. Alonso Estrada’s maternal grandfather was close to the king and a favorite of his. A member of the family married a distant cousin (not to distant as she descended from a brother of king Enrique Ii). The family was well paid. But the Kings favorite of the family was his illegitimate son, Alonso Estrada, that he had with the daughter of his friend. As the son of the king, Alonso was provided with a large annual salary, almost double the salary that was given to Hernan Cortez. This salary was large because he was the kings illegitimate son, and not because he was a treasurer. The other treasurers of the king did not receive anything near his salary.

Rick A. Ricci

Galeron De Los Esclavos - Real De Asientos - Aguascalientes

I have been curious about slaves in Nueva Espana because when I had watched the TV Series "Roots" about slaves in the USA. I was impacted by the suffering they went through.

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According to Ancestry dna, I have genes from West Africa (Gambia Senegal and Guinea-Bissau - not the areas on the Gulf og Guinea) and southwest Africa (Cameroun, Angola, Namibia, Gabon, and Congo). In church records I have found ancestors noted as mulatto libre and at least one as mulatto esclavo. Very interesting for me!

Regards
Denise

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Hola a todos.

En el blog del Arq. Rodolfo Hernández Chávez, quien es cronista de Encarnación de Díaz Jalisco, llamado "Historias y Recuerdos de Encarnación" hay una sección llamada Esclavos o libres, en donde describe la introducción de esclavos tanto en Jalisco como en Aguascalientes. Cita algunas fuentes importantes como los estudios sobre la esclavitud de Celina Becerra y el libro Esclavitud en Lagos del historiador Mario Gómez Mata.

Uno de los puntos importantes es el señalamiento que hace del que Don Pedro Mateos de Ortega, que fue uno de los titulares del Mayorazgo de Ciénega de Mata que incluye territorios tanto de Jalisco como de Aguascalientes introdujo muchos esclavos en dicha zona.

Como experiencia personal investigué a los antepasados de un tío bisabuelo (político o in law) cuyos descendientes son de Aguascalientes llegando a la existencia de dos abuelas décimas del siglo XVI que fueron esclavas negras. Algunos de sus rasgos aun se mantienen en los descendientes aunque el color de la piel de ellos es claro.

Saludos

Marcelina

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That's very interesting although sad. I have also been surprised by the quantity of "esclavo" notes in the birth and marriages records in Mexico. Many are "libres", but not all, both "negros" and mulatos.

De Santiago

Florensio de Santiago Sanchez
1700 Tabasco, Zacatecas, Mexico.

If you have any sources i can see please inform

BEATRIZ LOPEZ DE FUENLLANA Y SU ABUELA MATERNA

Hola prim@s,

This is the 10 Jul 1607 testamento of Beatriz Lopez de Fuenllana, widow of Alonso de Robalcava:

Comentarios

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This is indeed fantastic! Thank you so much for this work!
Could I add a few comments after looking at the records myself?

I noticed a few other interesting tidbits:
Fray Diego was the guardian of the convent at Patzcuaro.
His father was "naguatato" (?) of Patzcuaro. (What is that?)
His parents were deceased by Nov 1582.

Am I retrojecting if I suppose that Beatriz de Torres' birthplace is Mexico City? I read and read and compared letters to other parts of the document and it seems like it could be an abbreviation for feligresia. However, since this is an Inquisition record and there was no parish (presumably) and it's 1582, not sure if that makes sense. Note that at the bottom of the page where Diego's maternal grandmother is referenced, it says that she is also a "natural" of the same city as her daughter.
I do think that the first letter is an F, the second an E, and the last one is an A.

Also, I believe you left out one of his brothers: Diego del Castillo, the first on the list, described as a miner in Fresnillo.

In case it helps someone else figure out where his mother was from, here's my best effort at transcribing this page of the Inquisition record. I would love to see if someone else can figure this out better than can I :)

En la ciudad de Mexico, catorze días del mes de Novy.e de Mill y quien.s ochenta y dos ... estando los S.S. ... licen.dos ... Garcia en su audiencia de la tarde ... mismo siendo llamado y juro ... de dezir verdad... en esta audiencia como ... las demas que con el se ... de su causa en ... que dijo llamar de
Fray Diego de Fuenllana natural del pueblo de Cuyseo, del ... de Mechoacan, sacerdote profeso de la S. orden de S. Fr.co guardian ... del convento de Paßquaro de ... de donde ... le mando con una carta venir al test.o ... officio, ... de hedad de treynta y seis a.os, preg.do por su genealogia la declaro en la forma siguiente

PADRES
Juan de Baeça natural de Baeça de Paßcuaro donde fue naguatato (?), y de Ysabel de Perez su muger, natural de Fe...a defuntos

ABUELOS PATERNOS
que no los conocía ni save como se llamaron

ABUELOS MATERNOS
que no los con.e mas de a la que la beatriz de torres y que esta de (?) sera natural de Fe...a (same word as used in his mother's record).

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The following "pasajeros" record is from the PARES website and appears to match the same family for Beatriz Torres that Rick provided. I did not find a town named "Lepuza" in Spain, so this maybe a transcription error. The record has the image of the original record, but I can't make out the name of the town.

Título de la unidad: "Beatriz de Torres"
Archivo: Archivo General de Indias
Signatura: CONTRATACION,5536,L.3,F.238(5)

1535-5-13: "Beatriz de Torres y Juan de Torres, hijos de Cristóbal de Torres y de Leonor Pérez, naturales de Lepuza, a Nueva España."

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Thank you Agustin Perez for sharing your find of the pasajeros record. If this is the record of the two siblings, and it looks like it is, then now we know that the brother was known as both Juan and Diego and also that he used both surnames like their dad, Cristobál Castillo aka Torres. So now we should look to see if Juan Diego Castillo/Torres had any descendants.

Their mother Leonor Perez was from Sevilla, Spain.

I looked for Lepuza in Spain and could not find any thing by that exact name. I did find :

Lezuza
Municipio de la provincia de Albacete‎, España

Thank you everyone for this collaboration,
And especially thank you Manny Diez for your work,

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

BEATRIZ DE TORRES

I’m having my doubts that Beatriz de Torres is the same who passed to Indies in 1535; the time lines don’t square. In his proceso, Fray Diego de Fuenllana’s age is given as 36, placing his birth around 1546. If that's so, then his mother, Ysabel Perez, could have been born no later than 1532 - before Beatriz de Torres passed to Indies in 1535. On the passengers list, there is no mention of Beatriz de Torres being married, nor was she accompanied by any children. It's possible that Fray Diego's age is "overestimated," but for now, that's all we have.

GERONIMO DE OROZCO cc YSABEL DE CASTAÑEDA

Throughout the first decades of the 1600's, there was a Geronimo de Orozco married to Ysabel de Castañeda, living in Zamora, who had contact with Ysabel de Orozco del Castillo cc Juan de Zamora. I thought it possible that these 2 were the same as Geronimo de Orozco cc Ysabel del Castillo, though the timelines would be stretched: Geronimo de Orozco cc Ysabel de Castañeda baptized children in 1615 & 1617, whereas Ysabel de Orozco del Castillo and Maria de Orozco were born closer to 1585-1590. It's doable, but unlikely. It might be the same Geronimo de Orozco, and Ysabel de Castañeda, a second wife, or, this Geronimo de Orozco is son of the other. Anybody?

From the Sagrario, Zamora, Mich archives:

10 Jul 1606, Juana hija de Juan de Zamora y de Ysabel del Castillo Fueron sus padrinos Geronimo de Orosco y de Ysabel de Castañeda su muger.
18 Nov 1609, baptized was Juan hijo de Geronimo de Abreo y de Ysabel de Calvero? Fueron sus padrinos Geronimo de Orosco y su muger.
15 Jul 1611, baptized was Josefa hija de Juan de Zamora y de Ysabel de Orosco Fueron sus padrinos Melchor Masiel y Ma de Orosco.
22 Aug 1613, baptized was Ysabel, hija de Pedro y Juana Indios laborios de Geronimo Orosco. Fueron sus padrinos el susdho e Ysabel de Castañeda su muger vecinos deste dho pueblo.
04 Mar 1614 habiendose echado las suertes segun lo dispuesto por testamento y codicilio del Razº Juan Baptista de Ojeda de esta ciudad cupo a Maria de Espinosa Sobrina de Franco Martin Alcaras y de la Villa de Zamora a Maria de Horosco hija de Geronimo de Horosco y de Ysabel del Castillo vecinos de esta dha villa.(from Morelia archives).
10 Jun 1615, baptized was Maria Xertrudis hija de Juan de Zamora y de Ysabel del Castillo Fueron sus padrinos Diego Romo vno del Real de las Minas de Marfil y Maria de Orosco donsella cuñada y hermana de los susodhos.
21 Nov 1615, baptized was Juana Baptista hija de Geronimo de Horosco y de Ysabel de Castañeda Fue su padrino Miguel Ochoa Garibay.
24 Apr 1617, bele a Pedro de Peñas Corregidor de Tasasalca y a Doña Maria de Horosco Padrinos el alguacil Juan de la Mora y Doña Francisca de Garibay y Solis.
17 Jul 1617, baptized was Josefa hija de Geronimo de Horosco y de Ysabel de Castañeda Fueron sus padrinos Geronimo Sanchez y Francisca de Orosco su muger.
01 May 1621, baptized was Geronimo hijo de Francisco Sanchez y de Ysabel de Vargas Fueron sus padrinos Geronimo de Orosco e Ysabel de Castañeda su muger vecinos deste dho pueblo.
25 Feb 1625, baptized was Nicolas hijo de Lusia India criada de Geronimo de Orosco Fueron sus padrinos Salvador de Orosco y Doña Isabel Ramirez.
17 Jan 1651, buried was Ysabel de Castañeda, viuda de 70 años.

Who are Salvador de Orosco and Francisca de Orosco?

Great work, all of you! Thanks!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comentario

i agree with Manny Diez that the timeline is a little off. But I believe the issue is that "Fray Diego's age is "overestimated," just like he said was possible. All the other dates seem to fit nicely with the timeline when considering the dates of the grandchildren’s marriages and deaths.

I already had the information on Francisco de Santaella’s father in law and mother in law, even that the father in law used the two surnames Castillo and Torres, and that the mother in laws name is Leonor Perez. What I didn’t have was the name of Francisco Santaella’s wife, which Manny has now provided.

The only thing slightly off is Fray Diego's given age which is only a ballpark number given many decades later. We have come across many instances where the age given many decades later is a little off from the real age that we discover when we find records closer to their birth.

Thanks Manny and everyone for all your work,

Rick A. Ricci

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My theory theory is that Geronimo de Orozco, let's call him the first (I), who was married to Isabel del Castillo, is different than the Geronimo de Orozco, let's call him the second (II), who was married to Isabel de Castaneda. I *think* that the Geronimo's might be a generation apart and different people altogether. There are two facts that help this theory:

1. We know that Geronimo de Orozco (I) and Isabel del Castillo were a couple and were living in Zamora as early as November 9, 1580 given that Isabel del Castillo (mujer de Geronimo de Orozco) voted no in the petition to have the Franciscan order take administrative charge of the church of Zamora. You can find Isabel del Castillo voting no here.

2. Manny points out that a "dote" was granted to Maria de Orozco a daughter of Geronimo de Orozco (I) and Isabel del Castillo in 1614. This dote was gifted to Maria as an "obra pia" since she qualified for it. The primary qualification for the "dote" was that the recipient be an orphan. Here's the link to the dote.

The children that Geronimo de Orozco (I) and Isabel del Castillo started marrying around the 1610s, so they were born around 1580s-1590s. While the children that Geronimo de Orozco (II) and Isabel de Castaneda were being born around the 1610s. Not to mention that if Geronimo de Orozco (1) remarried, Maria de Orozco would not have received the dote.

My two cents,

Daniel Serna Valencia

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Hola prim@s,

Here’s an interesting tidbit I came upon, while flipping through the pages of Francisco A. de Icazo’s “Conquistadores y pobladores de Nueve España: diccionario autobiografico sacado de los textos originales.” On page 160, entry 898:

PERÁLUAREZ dize
En efecto, que es vezino de Mechoacan y natural de Villaviciosa, e hijo legitimo de Alvaro Lopez y Maria Harta, su muger; e abra veynte años que paso a esta Nueba Spaña, y deziocho que rreside en Mechoacan, y diez que esta casado con la muger que fue de Francisco de Santaella, conquistador; y tiene vna hija legitima, y dos hijos bastardos; y se ha hallado en todos los alardes que en este tiempo se han hecho en Mechoacan, con sus armas y cauallos, los quales siempre ha tenydo, y su casa poblada; y se hallo en el socorro de Tonala; nonbra personas que dize que lo saben.

What do you think? Did Beatriz de Torres remarry after Francisco Santaella’s death? The time line and location fits. I’ve found no other information on Peralvarez - which would be a contraction for “Pedro Alvarez,” but I’ll dig around.

Hope you’re all well!
Manny Díez Hermosillo

Comentario

The word *Naguatato* comes from the Nahuatl language. The Spanish
adopted the word and to them it meant someone who could speak clearly or
who was an interpreter of the various native languages. Because there were
many ethnicities in neighboring communities. In the book, "The War For
Mexico's West" by Ida Altman, she states that the question of language and
ethnicity was murky because the natives lived in multi-ethnic communities
with an absence of large political organizations, there was a multi-ethnic
composition that required people who could clearly interpret the various
languages. These interpreters were called by the Spaniards, *Naguatatos*,
they developed this term in or around 1525

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 10:57 AM, wrote:

> This is indeed fantastic! Thank you so much for this work! Could I add a
> few
> comments after looking at the records myself? I noticed a few other
> interesting tidbits: Fray Diego was the guardian of the convent at
> Patzcuaro.
> His father was "naguatato" (?) of Patzcuaro. (What is that?) His parents
> were
> deceased by Nov 1582. Am I retrojecting if I suppose that Beatriz de
> Torres'
> birthplace is Mexico City? I read and read and compared letters to other
> parts of the document and it seems like it could be an abbreviation for
> feligresia. However, since this is an Inquisition record and there was no
> parish (presumably) and it's 1582, not sure if that makes sense. Note that
> at
> the bottom of the page where Diego's maternal grandmother is referenced, it
> says that she is also a "natural" of the same city as her daughter. I do
> think that the first letter is an F, the second an E, and the last one is
> an
> A. Also, I believe you left out one of his brothers: Diego del Castillo,
> the
> first on the list, described as a miner in Fresnillo. In case it helps
> someone else figure out where his mother was from, here's my best effort at
> transcribing this page of the Inquisition record. I would love to see if
> someone else can figure this out better than can I :) En la ciudad de
> Mexico,
> catorze días del mes de Novy.e de Mill y quien.s ochenta y dos ... estando
> los S.S. ... licen.dos ... Garcia en su audiencia de la tarde ... mismo
> siendo llamado y juro ... de dezir verdad... en esta audiencia como ... las
> demas que con el se ... de su causa en ... que dijo llamar de Fray Diego de
> Fuenllana natural del pueblo de Cuyseo, del ... de Mechoacan, sacerdote
> profeso de la S. orden de S. Fr.co guardian ... del convento de Paßquaro de
> ... de donde ... le mando con una carta venir al test.o ... officio, ... de
> hedad de treynta y seis a.os, preg.do por su genealogia la declaro en la
> forma siguiente PADRES Juan de Baeça natural de Baeça de Paßcuaro donde
> fue naguatato (?), y de Ysabel de Perez su muger, natural de Fe...a
> defuntos
> ABUELOS PATERNOS que no los conocía ni save como se llamaron ABUELOS
> MATERNOS que no los con.e mas de a la que la beatriz de torres y que esta
> de
> (?) sera natural de Fe...a (same word as used in his mother's record).
>

Comentario

Hola prim@s,

Great work! Where it gives Juan de Baeza's occupation/title, I thought it said "magistrato," but now, knowing the existence of the word, "Naguatato," and reviewing the original document, it's clear, that is what it says. Thank you, Rick F, and thank you, Alicia, for the definition! Super interesting, that Diego de Baeza would learn the native tongues! Also, I mistakenly wrote that Juan de Baeza was a natural of Patzcuaro: he was born in Baeza, and vecino de Patzcuaro.

According to Fray Diego de Fuenllana's limpieza, Diego del Castillo minero was the brother of his mother, Ysabel Perez, so he'd be the son of Francisco de Santaella and Beatriz de Torres. Rick R - the Cristobal Castillo (aka Torres) cc Leonor Perez is a great lead - it would reconcile the Castillo/Torres/Perez surnames. Do you have any more info on them? From the timeline, they'd have to be around 1500, if Fray Diego was born around 1546.

Re: Geronimo de Orozco cc Ysabel del Castillo, I also have him listed as Geronimo de Orozco Liebana, and her, as Ysabel de Castaneda. I'm still not convinced she is the same Ysabel del Castillo spoken of in the limpieza. Need more documentation. Anyone?

Thanks!
Manny Diez Hermosillo

Comentario

I read somewhere, don’t remember where right now, that Juan De Baeza learned native languages almost immediately upon arriving in the “new world” and his occupation was from then on “translator”. Manny’s find confirms this information.

Thanks Manny,

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Rick F,
Here is what I was able to transcribe from the inquisition document:

[al margen: juramento]
En la ciudad de México, catorce días del mes de <¿noviembre?> de mil quinientos ochenta y dos años, estando los señores <¿inquisidores?> licenciados Bonilla y Santos García en su audiencia, de la tarde, pareció; siendo llamado y juro, de forma debida de derecho, decir verdad, así en esta audiencia, como < ¿? > las de más que con él se tuvieren hasta la determinación de su causa; un hombre que dijo llamarse

[al margen: edad 36]
Fray Diego de Fuenllana, natural del pueblo de Cuitzeo, obispado de Michoacan, sacerdote profeso del orden de San Francisco, guardian que < ¿? > del convento de Patzcuaro del dicho obispado, de donde el < ¿? > le mando con una carta venir a este Santo Oficio, y que es de edad de treinta y seis años y preguntado por su genealogía, la declaro en esta forma siguiente

[al margen: genealogía]
Padres
Juan de Baeza, natural de la Baeza, vecino de Patzcuaro donde fue naguatato, y de Isabel Perez, su mujer, natural de < ¿? >, difuntos.

Abuelos Paternos
Que no los conoció, ni sabe cómo se llamaron

Abuelos Maternos
Que no los conoció más de a la abuela Beatriz de Torres que < ¿? > era natural de < ¿? >

Tíos hermanos de Padre
Que no los conoce

Tíos hermanos de Madre
Diego del Castillo, minero en el Fresnillo

Comentario

Fantastic find Manny! The inquisition records are proving to be a gold mine!

As for Isabel del Castillo, I suspect that she's the Isabel del Castillo who married Geronimo de Orozco and had among other children:

Maria de Orozco cc Pedro de Penas
Isabel Orozco del Castillo cc Juan de Zamora

Thanks for the find!

Daniel

Comentario

Great work Manny,

I believe you are correct in placing Diego first, as I believe he is the eldest. I would place Ysabel del Castillo last as she is married to Geronimo Miguel De Orozco that was baptized in 1562. If we place her birthdate close to his baptism then she is most likely the youngest sibling.

Geronimo Miguel De Orozco, baptized 24/Oct/1562 by his parents Dr. Geronimo De Orozco and Beatriz Tello De Sandoval.

Francisco Santaella was married to Beatriz Torres daughter of Cristobal Castillo ( aka Torres ) and Leonor Perez.

Thanks,

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

Could you please provide the sources for the info on Geronimo and for Beatriz Torres' parents? Also, did you deduce that Diego del Castillo (the miner from Zacatecas) was the mother's brother from the Inquisition list? I'm no expert by far. I think I misread the heading - I believe it says "Hijos y Hermanos de Madre" is that right? If so, that's why the miner is in this list :)

Comentario

Thank you Carlos,

If it was the younger brother then it would have been most likely that the bride was older than the groom by a few years, which is not unheard of, but not an often occurrence. I was unaware that there was an older brother also named Geronimo. I agree with you that the older one is most likely the spouse.

I am unsure however as to Isabel Castillo and Isabel Castaneda being the same person. Can someone clarify why they believe that they are the same person? Could the Isabel Calderon be married to the younger brother, Geronimo Miguel Orozco?

Thanks again,
Rick A. Ricci

Orozco y Toledo

Estimados Señores,

Comentarios

Comentario

Existe una capellania que mando fundar Juan y Mariana que quizas tenga algunas pistas sobre esta familia:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-6Z96-Z5?i=520&cc=1883388&cat=394235

En los documentos de esta capellania, existen varias copias de partidas de matrimonio y bautizmos de los hijos, nietos, etc. de Diego de Orozco y Maria Giron:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939L-DX9M-LW?i=768&cc=1883388&cat=394235

El Toledo, creo que su origen si viene de Maria Giron, ya que en algunas partidas la mencionas con el apellido compuesto de Enriquez de Toledo.

Saludos,

Daniel Serna Valencia

Comentario

Mil gracias por tu invaluable ayuda y amabilidad, Daniel.

Coincido contigo, en María están los apellidos Girón, Castellanos, Enríquez y Toledo. Coinciden con los de la familia del Obispo de Michoacán, quizás sean deudos en algún grado.

Saludos,

Erik Reynoso.

Comentario

Ayer encontré la partida de bautismo de mi antepasado Isidro: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939Z-R8KB-R?i=819&cc=1615259 (22 de Julio de 1636), hijo de Diego de Orozco y Tovar y María Enríquez Girón.

Aunque aún no he encontrado a los padres de María apunto la posibilidad que tanto ella como su hermano Diego Girón de Castellanos y Toledo eran hijos de Alonso Girón de Alvarado y Cota y de su esposa Isabel Enríquez de Castellanos Toledo y Rivadeneyra. Isabel es hija de García Enríquez de Castellanos Orozco y Toledo y de Beatriz de Rivadeneyra, nieta del tesorero de Guatemala Francisco de Castellanos y de María de Orozco, primera esposa de Luis Colón de Toledo, I Duque de Veragua.

De corresponderles esta genealogía a los hermanos Girón Enríquez de Castellanos y Toledo entonces habrían sido sobrinos nietos del obispo de Michoacán Alonso Orozco Enriquez de Armendáriz Castellanos y Toledo, hermano entero de García.

Saludos,

Need help locating Parrish records in Government books

Does anyone know if church records were recorded in government books? Is there an archive to look at those?

Example is a picture of one a historian sent me. I am trying to help him out.

upload

Comentarios

Comentario

I have seen the picture. My understanding is that the word "Gobierno" here has nothing to do with the "government", it is a reference to the governing of the Curato so this is a completely church thing and has nothing to do with civil matters. In Mexico Church archives and Civil Governement records are things that stand apart from each other.

Comentario

Thank you Uncabral. A historian (Cronista) of Zacatecas, has been asking me if I know where those types of records are kept. He said that he was told that it would be copied by the Mormons in their records.

I am trying to help him locate the archives. On the example he gave me of a picture of the "Gobierno Del Curato" book of Valparaiso, Zacatecas, Mexico 1854, it would probably be under the archive of that title "Gobierno Del Curato" if it exists some where and was copied for people to see online.

That would open up a new avenue to look at records online.

I think it is called "Libros Parroquial Del Gobierno"

http://www.dsanjuan.org/descargas/upload//Indicaciones_para_Libro_de_Go…

Comentario

En Familysearch.org en el Catalogo bajo: Libros de gobierno, 1670-1752 hay 52 microfilms

Este es el link:

https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/309129

Libros de gobierno, 1670-1752
Authors:
Audiencia de Nueva Galicia (Guadalajara). Presidente (Main Author)
Format:
Manuscript/Manuscript on Film
Language:
Spanish
Publication:
Salt Lake City, Utah : Filmado por la Socidad Genealógica de Utah, 1959
Physical:
52 rollos de microfilme ; 35 mm.
Notes
Microfilme de manuscritos en el Archivo de Instrumentos Públicos en Guadalajara.

Algunos de los libros incluyen índice.

La Audiencia de la Nueva Galicia contaba con las provincias mayores de Colima, Jalisco, y Zacatecas, que corresponden a los estados actuales del mismo nombre de la República Mexicana.

Se colectaron en los "Libros de Gobierno" nombramaientos, comisiones, confirmaciones, reales cédulas y provisiones, licencias, títulos de provisión, y otros muchos documentos civiles.

Public records from the "Audiencia" or Kingdom of Nueva Galicia, the present-day States of Colima, Jalisco, and Zacatecas, Mexico.

View this catalog record in WorldCat for other possible copy locations

Subjects
Locality Subjects
Mexico, Jalisco - Public records Mexico, Colima - Public records Mexico, Zacatecas - Public records
Film/Digital Notes
Note Location Collection/Shelf Film DGS Format
Libros de gobierno 1670-1675
Family History Library
International Film
269815
7984282
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1676-1679,1689
Family History Library
International Film
269866
7984422
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1684
Family History Library
International Film
269816
7984283
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1685
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269817
7984284
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1686
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269818
7984285
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1687
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269819
7984286
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1691
Family History Library
International Film
269820
7984287
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1692
Family History Library
International Film
269821
7984288
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1693
Family History Library
International Film
269822
7984289
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1694
Family History Library
International Film
269823
7984290
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1695
Family History Library
International Film
269824
7984291
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1696
Family History Library
International Film
269825
7984292
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1697
Family History Library
International Film
269826
7984293
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1698
Family History Library
International Film
269827
7984383
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1699
Family History Library
International Film
269828
7984384
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1700-1701
Family History Library
International Film
269829
7984385
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1702-1703
Family History Library
International Film
269830
7984386
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1704-1705
Family History Library
International Film
269831
7984387
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1706,1668
Family History Library
International Film
269832
7984388
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1707-1708
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269833
7984389
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1708-1709
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269834
7984390
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1710-1712
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269835
7984391
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1713-1714
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269836
7984392
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1715-1717
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269837
7984393
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1718
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269838
7984394
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1719
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269839
7984395
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1720-1721
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269840
7984396
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1722-1723
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269841
7984397
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1724
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269842
7984398
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1725
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269843
7984399
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1726
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269844
7984400
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1727
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269845
7984401
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1728
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269846
7984402
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1729
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269847
7984403
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1730
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269848
7984404
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1731
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269849
7984405
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1732
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269850
7984406
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1733
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269851
7984407
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1734
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269852
7984408
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1735
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269853
7984409
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1736
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269854
7984410
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1737
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269855
7984411
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1738-1739
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269856
7984412
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1740
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269857
7984413
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1741
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269858
7984414
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1742
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269859
7984415
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1743
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269860
7984416
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1744-1745
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269861
7984417
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1746-1747
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269862
7984418
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1748
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269863
7984419
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1749
Family History Library
International Film
269864
7984420
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Libros de gobierno 1750-1752
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
269865
7984421
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.

Comentario

Adicionalmente existen tambien documentos de Gobierno eclesiástico en : Diócesis de Michoacán, 1624-1840

https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/2535

Documentos eclesiásticos : Diócesis de Michoacán, 1624-1840
Authors:
Iglesia Católica. Diócesis de Michoacán (México) (Main Author)
Archivo Diocesano de Morelia (Repository)
Archivo Histórico Museo Casa de Morelos (Repository)
Archivo del Arzobispado de Michoacán (Repository)
Format:
Manuscript/Manuscript on Film
Language:
Spanish
Publication:
Salt Lake City, Utah : Filmado por la Socidad Genealógica de Utah, 1971
Physical:
en 11 rollos de microfilme ; 35 mm.
References:
(Digital Collection) Mexico, Michoacán, Catholic Church records = México, Michoacán, registros parroquiales y diocesanos : COLLECTION RECORD, 1555-1996
Notes
Mexico, Michoacán, Catholic Church Records are available online, click here.

Microfilme de manuscritos en el Archivo Histórico Museo Casa de Morelos, antes Archivo del Arzobispado de Michoacán.

Administrative documents from the Diocese of Michoacan, Mexico.

View this catalog record in WorldCat for other possible copy locations

Subjects
Locality Subjects
Mexico, Michoacán, Morelia - Church records
Film/Digital Notes
Note Location Collection/Shelf Film DGS Format
Padrón de eclesiásticos de Michoacán, 1804-1840
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
762639
Item 3
4711426
This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Gobierno ecleciástico 1624-1669
Family History Library
International B1 High Density
762645
4749651
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Gobierno eclesiástico 1624-1669
Family History Library
International B1 High Density
762646
4749652
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Gobierno eclesiástico 1696-1728
Family History Library
International B1 High Density
762647
4749653
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Gobierno eclesiástico 1695-1708 (incluye Testamentos y Estados)
Family History Library
International B1 High Density
762648
4749654
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Gobierno eclesiástico 1721-1725
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
762649
4749655
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Gobierno eclesiástico 1725-1728
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
762650
4749656
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Gobierno eclesiástico 1728-1729, 1737-1740
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
764157
4726825
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Gobierno eclesiástico 1738-1804, 1740-1763
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
764158
4726826
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Gobierno eclesiástico 1741-1772
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
764159
4726827
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.
Gobierno eclesiástico 1772-1792
Granite Mountain Record Vault
International Film
764160
4726828
Browse the images online This item is available on microfilm at this family history center.

¿Son todos los Cabral jerezanos y en general zacatecanos descendientes de Domingo Cabral?

Este es un tema que parece central en la investigación genealógica de los Cabral zacatecanos y por lo visto no hay una respuesta definitiva aún.

Comentarios

Comentario

En lugar de un post nuevo, prefiero publicar esto como un comentario al anterior, pues está intimamente relacionado y tiene que ver con los últimos resultados de mi investigación:

Finalmente hace solo un par de semanas y después de 14 años de busqueda e investigación con éxitos y dificultades, pude por fin establecer con claridad mi linaje hasta Domingo Cabral (1610 ca.) nacido en la Villa de Xerez de padre español venido de Galicia y madre nativa, probablemente de la etnia Wixarica.

Por los datos propios de la familia yo sabía que mi tatarabuelo era Pantaleón Cabral Saldivar, nacido en 1791 en Xerez y fallecido en 1861, y sabía también que era hijo de Josefa Saldivar y de Felipe Cabral, quien habría nacido muy probablemente en el primer tercio del siglo XVIII. Mi investigación sobre los ancestros de Felipe Cabral se inició cuando supe acerca de Family Search, gracias a Salvador Cabral Valdez, quien me hizo llegar una transcripción del registro de matrimonio de Felipe Cabral y Josefa Saldivar (Jerez, 1775). En dicho registro se mencionaban los padres de ambos. Por parte de Felipe: Hermenegildo Cabral y Thomasa Fernández y por parte de Josefa Saldivar: Marcelino Saldivar y Juliana Félix.

Después encontré el registro de bautismo de Felipe Noberto (Coyote), del 24 de abril de 1748, hijo legítimo de Hermenegildo Cabral y Thomasa Fernandez, vecinos del puesto del Sotano, en Jerez.

Después vino otro hallazgo importante: el registro de matrimonio de Hermenegildo Cabral, español y Thomasa Fernandez, mestiza, en Jerez, el 14 de octubre de 1739. Este registro me aportó datos muy importantes: Thomasa Fernandez es hija de Luis Gregorio Fernandez, difunto, y de María de los Dolores Reinosa. Hermenegildo es hijo de Nicolás Cabral y de Marta de la Encarnación. Los padrinos fueron Juan Antonio Cabral y Salvadora Cabral.

Este registro me dió pistas importantes: Hermenegildo es hijo de Nicolás Cabral y Marta de la Encarnación y sus padrinos son Juan Antonio y Salvadora Cabral Ubillos, hermanos ellos e hijos de Juan Cabral Rodarte y Felipa Ubillos, que son precisamente ancestros de Salvador Cabral Valdez. Por él supe que el hermano mayor de Juan Cabral Rodarte era Nicolás Cabral Rodarte, nacido en 1672. Ambos, Juan y Nicolás eran hijos de Juan Cabral Pinedo (hijo de Domingo Cabral y Ana Catalina Pinedo Caldera) nacido en diciembre de 1649 lo cual me hizo albergar la hipotesis de que este Nicolás Cabral era el padre de Hermenegildo y Juan Antonio y Salvadora eran sus primos hermanos. Sin embargo no había entonces forma de comprobarlo pues de las dos esposas de este Nicolás ninguna se llamaba Marta de la Encarnación. Una tenía cierta similitud: Marta de la Cruz, pero no era suficiente. Había otro hijo de Domingo Cabral, llamado Cristóbal, casado con Margarita Carrillo y que tenía igualmente un hijo Nicolás Cabral Carrillo, pero el nombre de su esposa en nada se asemejaba a Marta de la Encarnación. La probabilidad seguía estando en Nicolas Cabral Rodarte, pero solo era un probablilidad y nada más.

Pasaron muchos años de infructuosa búsqueda hasta que un buen día, hace menos de dos semanas, encontré dos datos muy reveladores en dos padrones jerezanos, uno del año de 1649 y el otro de aproximadamente 1700/17 (fecha estimada y anotada en las hojas que se conservan) y que no está disponible en family search pero que por suerte un amigo me lo pasó. Es un padrón incompleto pero en las pocas hojas que se conservan encontré el registro de Bartholome Cabral, viudo viviendo con varios hijos (Josepha, Phelipe, Thomas y María), uno de ellos, aparentemente el mayor, es precisamente Nicolás Cabral que vive con su mujer, Marta de la Encarnación. Esto fue un hallazgo mayor pues finalmente despejaba la duda y quedaba descartada la filiación con Nicolas Cabral Rodarte. Ahora era claro que el padre de Hermenegildo era Nicolás Cabral, el hijo de Bartolomé Cabral.

Un gran paso, pero: ¿quien era este Bartolomé? por lo pronto es claro que tiene en 1700/17 ca. por lo menos un hijo ya casado y varios más solteros y además está viudo.

Al mismo tiempo encontré en family search el padrón más antiguo de Jerez que ahi se tiene catalogado y que es del año 1649. Ahí encontré el registro realizado en el Rancho de Domingo Cabral y Catalina Caldera, donde viven su hija Ana, casada con Joseph Sánchez y sus hijos Francisca, Isabel, Tomás, Pedro, Juan, Cristóbal y BARTHOLOME, quien tiene al momento del empadronamiento la edad de 2 años y registrado como hijo de Domingo y Catalina.

Este Bartolomé jamás había sido mencionado entre los hijos de Domingo por otros paisanos interesados en los Cabral de Jerez, especialmente nunca lo ha mencinado Salvador Cabral Valdez y por obvias razones ha sido un hallazgo de suma importancia para mi investigación genealógica personal.

Bartolomé debió nacer alrededor de 1647, y al tiempo del padrón de 1700/17 ca. debía tener cerca de 60-70 años. Luego encontré un registro de bautizo de un Domingo Cabral, hijo de Bartolomé Cabral y Melchora de los Reyes, de 1688, y que muy probablemente se trate del mismo Bartolomé y que es de una época cuando la familia Cabral en Jerez aún no era demasiado numerosa. De ser el mismo Bartolomé, en 1688 tendría alrededor de 41 años y desde luego es una pista para continuar la investigación y suponer que mi ancestro se llamaba Nicolás Cabral de los Reyes. De cualquier modo, parece altamente probable que mi ancestro Bartolomé Cabral sea ese niño de dos años hijo de Domingo y Catalina, viviendo en ese rancho, distante tres leguas de la Villa.

La investigación ha de continuar a partir de estos últimos datos, para confirmar lo que aqui relato.

Espero esto pueda ser también de ayuda en las investigaciones de otros Cabral descendientes de Felipe Cabral y Josefa Saldivar, quienes tuvieron muchos hijos e hijas.

Saludos cordiales
Jesus Cabral