Nuestros Ranchos Site

Linda:

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Dear Arturo:
Would like to volunteer for the Excel project.

Maureen Bejar

I like the idea of the book catalog for those of us who own pertinent
books. I would think that a brief desciption would be useful, too. Of
course, the latter would need to bilingually provided.

Would this be possibly her?

Border Crossings: From Mexico to U.S., 1903-1957
about Nicolasa Banuelos Name: Nicolasa Banuelos Arrival Date: 14 May 1924 Age: 9 Birth Date: abt 1915 Birthplace: Huejucar Birth Country: Mexico Gender: Female Race/Nationality: Mexican (Latino) Port of Arrival: El Paso, Texas, USA Accompanied by: Mother Ma?? Record has photo?: No

Yvonne

Hi George, you make a good point, well I think the other 20 children are missing, you could fit in many kids, there are huge gaps especially with Gertrudis Navarro she could have easily had another 8 or 9. As well as the other Gertrudis another 4 or 5. Same thing with Antonia another 4 or so. Don Juan sounds like the guy who had a child every year, I mean 45 he would have to have one every year, unless he had twins several times. another possibility. You could try looking at other "hot spots" where the Spanish of Aguas could go, a popular one, I have stumbled upon is PINOS, ZACATECAS. For some reason you find several of the early settlers going up there. Others include the rest of Aguas, sometimes northern Los Altos usually Lagos or Teocaltiche seem the common places. Also try Nochistlán. But to save time, I guess looking at the "Defunciones" would be helpful too in Aguas, since Id imagine they burried their stillborn (prob had some) where they lived (Aguas) . -Daniel

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What exactly are marriage information records? I have always
understood them to be a record of the publication of marriage banns,
or statements of intent to marry or marriage petitions. But
occasionally I find some that are dated after the fact, as if they
were announcements or were late in being entered into the register
(but these latter were transcribed by someone else so the dates may be
wrong). Can anyone shed light on this?

Second question:

If a marriage record states that the marriage was performed "en la
iglesia parroquial del Pueblo de San José de Gracia", but in the
margin the entry is prefaced by "Río Blanco" ... does that mean the
marriage was performed in a parish church in Río Blanco, which was of
the parrochial jurisdiction of the parish of the Pueblo of San José de
Gracia ... ? or does Río Blanco have some other significance.

-- Best regards, Stuart
mailto:stuartarms@gmail.com

George,

The Juan de Santiago who married Gertrudis Navarro in 1706 is probably the same Juan de Santiago Escobar who married Antonia Ruiz de Esparza in 1665 and Gertrudis Ruiz de Esparza Rangel in 1698. I came across his burial record a couple of years ago, and was surprised to find out that he had a total of 45 children, 24 of them still living in 1729. His burial record reads as follows (verbatim):

Al margen: "Juan de Sntiago casado con Gertrudis Navarro"

"En la villa de Aguas Calientes en primero dia de septiembre de mil setecientos veinte y nuebe años en esta Sa. Iglesia Parrochial enterre a Juan de Sntiago, español y vecino de esta dicha villa quien murio cuasi de sien años y fue casado tres veces y en los tres Matrimonios tubo cuarenta y sinco hijos lexitimos y tiempo de su fayecimiento dejo hijos beinte y cuatro de ellos y la ultima (?) mujer que fue Gertrudis Navarro. Se dispuso para Morir Recibiendo los Sanctos Sacramentos de Penitencia, Eucaristía y Extrema Uncion. No hiso testamento porque no tubo de que haserlo y para que conste lo firme. [f] Nicolas Fernandez de Palos."

According to this information, he was "nearly one hundred years old" in 1729, which puts his birthdate close to 1629. I believe his age was exaggerated and that he was closer to 85 years of age. His first wife Antonia Ruiz de Esparza was born in 1643. Had she lived she would have been 86 years old in 1729. I believe Juan de Santiago was probably closer to her age than to 100.

One discrepancy I found in your inquiry is the surname you gave his second wife. Her name was Gertrudis de Esparza Rangel (Gertrudis Rangel in some records). According to their marriage record, she was "castiza", i.e. a person of mixed blood. You may have read "Castilla" where it says "Castisa". Here is the "dispensa" from "Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara" by Luz Montejano Hilton:

"Aguascalientes, Ags. Agosto 25 de 1698.- Dispensa de segundo grado de afinidad por cópula lícita.- Juan de Santiago, español de 54 años de edad, vecino de esta villa, viudo de Antonia Ruiz de Esparza, difunta; con Gertrudis Rangel, tresalva de 30 años de edad, vecina de esta villa, viuda de Blas López. Declaración del pretenso: Que la pretensa era sobrina de la dicha Antonia Ruiz de Esparza mi mujer, por ser hija de hermano de la dicha Antonia, y que su calidad es por ser bisnieta de coyota. 10 fojas."

The words "tresalva" (derived from TRES=3 and ALBA=white) and "castiza" are synonymous, meaning three quarters white (española) and one part indian. So, which is the great-grandmother who was a "coyota"? Could they be referring to Francisca Gabai de Moctezuma? Hmm... who knows, but that reminds me that I need to read the entire dispensa, all "10 fojas" of it. The dispensa can probably be found online under "Informaciones Matrimoniales" but I haven't had time to check.

Another interesting point about this dispensa is that Juan de Santiago was 54 years old in 1698. That makes him 85 in 1729. Although he was not "nearly 100 years old" as stated in his burial record, he did live a long life with a lot of "mileage" by the time he died in 1729, considering his three marriages and forty-five children !!

I found some discrepancies in the children you listed in your inquiry, but will have to discuss that later.

To be continued...

Bill Figueroa

The correct spelling is: hidropesía

This is an "Abnormal accumulation of liquid in some
cavity of the organism." I'm not sure what hidropesia
would translate to in English.

Hope that helps.

-Esther

--- longsjourney wrote:

>
>
> In reseaching records I've found this phrase used
> often and don't understand the translation. Can
> someone who speaks Spanish translate and solve my
> mystery?
>
> "originarios y vicenos de este lugar"
>
> On the subject of reasons for a death I've often
> found "hydropecia or hidropecia" any ideas?
>
> Thanks, Linda in Everett

"orginarios y vecinos de este lugar" literally translates as "natives and neighbors of this place"

Originario is a person who is originally from a place, so in this context it means that the people were born in the jurisdiccion, as opposed to having migrated there from somewhere else.

Vecino means neighbor which in this context means that they are residents of the jurisdiccion.

Someone who was originally from the place but had moved away would be originario de este lugar y vecino/feligres de "somewhere else"

Someone who had migrated to the jurisdiccion would be listed as originario de "somewhere else" y vecino de este lugar desde hace xxx anos... which would translate as resident of this place since xxx years ago.

Arturo, I think its amazing that you are willing to spearhead this
incorporation process. Can you explain what more we would gain from being
incorporated? And what kind of assistance is needed to make that happen?
Thanks, Raquel

Claudia,

You have found an example of the beautiful confusion of the Spanish surname system that existed before the standardization of surnames introduced under the Bourbon reforms. Basically, in Spain and Spanish America, it was quite common to give children maternal surnames and sometimes even maternal grandmother's surnames (I have seen many examples of girls being named for their grandmother including her surname and thus having a different surname than all of their siblings).

So in this case, it seems that somewhere down the line, someone could not decide which surname to use and switched back and forth (or perhaps the priest could not choose and switched back and forth). This was quite common and you will run into it more the further back you go. You should stay open to looking for both surnames. It could be that Monica's father used Placencia and Robles and therefore the records for his daughter simply matched whatever name he was using at the time.

Of course, there are also plenty of examples where priests just "got it wrong" and confused one person for another or just put down the wrong name.

Hello All!
 
Please tell me what is "incorporation" I don´t have a clue what are you proposing about for "nuestros ranchos". What is the meaning of "next level"?
 
Por favor díganme qué es "incorporación" No tengo idea de lo que están proponiendo para "nuestros ranchos". ¿Cuál es el significado de "siguiente nivel"?
 
Thnk you in advance, Leticia Leon

--- El dom 12-abr-09, Efrain Conrique escribió:

De:: Efrain Conrique
Asunto: FW: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The next step for Nuestros Ranchos - El próximo paso para Nuestros Ranchos
A: "NuestrosRanchos"
Cc: arturo.ramos2@gmail.com
Fecha: domingo, 12 abril, 2009, 4:01 pm

Arturo,

This thread being sent to the general membership as requested.

Efrain.

----- Original Message -----
From: Arturo Ramos
To: conrique1@earthlink.net
Sent: 4/12/2009 9:52:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] The next step for Nuestros Ranchos - El
próximo paso para Nuestros Ranchos

Thank you for your thoughtful insight on the topic Enfrain. If you would not
mind, I would appreciate you posting this to the general membership. I think it
useful to have contrasting points of view such that we make an informed
decision.

I too have largely shared your opinion that the current activities of the group
do not merit incorporation. It was the spontaneous generosity shown by the
membership. I know I have come across many opportunities where the goals of our
group could have been greatly advanced with some financial resources, but I am a
bit weary of doing fundraising without the framework of a formal organization.

I serve as Treasurer for my graduate school alumni association which is
incorporated and it is a bit of a hassle to maintain all of the requisite
filings with the District of Columbia government and the IRS but also not
overwhelming. We turn over perhaps 2,000 or 3,000 a year which I imagine would
be the range of Nuestros Ranchos activities. In that case, when we have
undertaken larger endeavors, we have the University take on the contracts, etc.
on our behalf since they have the in-house legal resources and insurance, etc.
in place. Perhaps finding an existing organization with similar goals to take
us under for fundraising activities, etc. might be an option.

El 12 de abril de 2009 0:17, Efrain Conrique
escribió:

Arturo,

This is the second time that I have noticed mentioning of consideration of
organizing a non-profit corporation around Nuestros Ranchos and I
"passed"
on the subject the previous time because I didn't think it was worthwhile
for the then apparent functions/activities of this group.

I have personally organized (or had significant responsibilities in the
organization or restructuring of) probably around 100 nonprofit
corporations in California. Most of them were quite small --- like youth
groups ala soccer/Pop Warner/ Little League/etc, --- where it was deemed
advisable because of the significant exposures to unwarranted liabilities
to volunteers and other program participants, and because of its advantages
when soliciting donations from businesses and the general public . About a
dozen of these activities were for much larger corporations, like community
clinics, community and economic development organizations, scientific
research groups, and a major children's hospital.

Except for the larger organizations, these tasks were done completely on a
pro bono basis.

I mention this as background for my continued opinion that, as I visualize
them, Nuestros Ranchos prospective activities and programs do not expose it
to foreseeable liabilities or require soliciting and management of
significant amounts of funds, and therefore, I consider forming and
operating Nuestros Ranchos as a corporation is tantamount to buying and
operating a pneumatic jackhammer when only an occasional need for a shovel
is necessary.

In any event, I am willing to discuss the activities that you envision this
prospective nonprofit corporation would undertake and, if appropriate,
participate at no cost in your demonstrated good efforts.

Best regards,

Efrain Conrique
San Diego, California
858-565-0464
www.businessdevelopmentbureau.com

PS: If you desire, I can translate this into Spanish and distribute it to
the general membership of Nuestros Ranchos.

> [Original Message]
> From:
> To:
> Date: 4/11/2009 7:43:33 PM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] The next step for Nuestros Ranchos - El
próximo paso para Nuestros Ranchos
>
> Joseph Puentes and I had dinner tonight with and he presented me with a
large number of letters from Nuestros Ranchos members expressing their
gratitude for my work on the site, many of which included monetary
contributions. I am extremely moved and grateful at members' generosity
and throughtfulness. I discussed with Joseph that I could not accept the
money, but that I would be willing to take the money and use it as the seed
money to incorporate Nuestros Ranchos as a nonprofit so as to take it to
the next level.

I have been on the Boards of a number of nonprofits and understand the work
involved, but I think this group has been blessed with many volunteers and
as long as we continue to have such involvement and keep our goals modest,
we will inevitably succeed.

Please let me know if you would like to take part in this process. I am
thinking it would be best to incorporate in Texas or California where we
have the largest membership as having a resident in the state of
incorporation is a requirement.

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/texas/forming-nonprofit-corporat…
exas

ESPAÑOL

Joseph Puentes y yo cenamos junto esta noche y al fin de la cena me
presentó un gran número de cartas de miembros de Nuestros Ranchos
expresando su agradecimiento por mi trabajo en el sitio, y muchas de las
cartas incluían aportaciones dinerarias. Estoy muy conmovido y agradecido
a los miembros por su generosidad y consideración. Le dije a Joseph que no
podía aceptar el dinero, pero que yo estaría dispuesto a tomar el dinero
y utilizarlo como el capital inicial para incorporar Nuestros Ranchos como
una organización sin fines de lucro a fin de llevar a la orgnización al
próximo nivel.

He sido parte de las mesas directivas de un número de organizaciones sin
fines de lucro y entiendo el trabajo que supone mi propuesta, pero creo que
este grupo ha sido bendecido con muchos voluntarios y mientras sigamos
teniendo esa participación y mantengamos nuestros objetivos modestos,
inevitablemente tendremos éxito.

Por favor, hágamelo saber si le gustaría tomar parte en este proceso.
Pienso que lo mejor sería incorporar en Texas o California, donde tenemos
los números más grandes de miembros ya que un requisito es tener un
agente residente en el estado de incorporación.

http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/texas/forming-nonprofit-corporat…
exas

Hey guys !

This new feature sounds great ! Now , it´s up to the folks out there to use it and benifit from it .

Welester

> Previously the only way that you could search the site was by being a member and being logged in. We have now implemented a limited search function for visitors to the site who are not logged in. The search function is through Google so it only shows results for the "public" areas of the site, basically the forums.
>
> If you would like to get more complete search results, the full search function is still available when you are logged in. You will notice that the search field and button change and that you get much fuller results when you use the site search function. Please let us know what you think.

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Joseph,
It's time for me to give back so I would be happy to volunteer as a Spanish speaking/writing tutor as well.

I wonder if we should all join one of those collaborative tree sites like Geni (which I personally use for my family, but might not best for our group until they support source citation). It would give us a flash tree that can be navigated, and would calculate our relationships to each other. Also, most of them support gedcom upload.

-Patti

------Original Message------
From: Joseph Puentes
Sender: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
ReplyTo: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Cousins Database: Volunteers Sought
Sent: Apr 8, 2009 4:16 AM

Hi All,

I'm looking for two or possibly three volunteers to put together a
database of sorts on all the members of the group that have made a
family connection with each other. This list would give the persons
names, their email address, their location of connection and then the
details of how the connection was made.

I believe my cousin Angie Godina already started such a list but I
believe that would only be a start.

joseph

======================

Joseph Puentes
NoMeat@h2opodcast.com
http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html (Vegan Environmental Solutions Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.com (Environmental Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.blogspot.com (Blog for above)
http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)
http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
Genealogy)

Dear Joseph:
I am good at data entry and know a little about databases. As long as I am not in charge, I would volunteer for the tedious part. Let me know.

Maureen Bejar

PS: this is the first time I have logged to the new site. Great Job!! Just lovely.

I was at first surprised to find that the sister of one of my ancestors was confirmed when she was about 27 years old and 9 years after she got married. Given that confirmations require the presence of the bishop and that he had to come from Guadalajara, its not difficult to imagine how spaced these visits may have been.

Jaime
----- Original Message -----
From: rosehardy@hotmail.com
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2009 6:26:38 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Confirmation records are a must for research

While reading the groups postings regarding confirmation records. I have read many in Aguascalientes, from 1620 to 1823. There was no set age limit. It just depended on when the bishop made his rounds. I have even seen one person (espanol) confirmed at the age of 70 or so. I would have to say to not overlook them, same as burial records. The Teocaltiche confirmation records are not as clear as the Aguascalientes records....and there are a few microfilm rolls where the pages are not in order. Off the top of my head I can not recall the time period as my cousin is the Teocaltiche expert.

I have found many missing links using confirmation and burial records, when my line does not appear in baptism records or marriage records.

Rose

Stuart, et al.

There is a great publication, a lexicon of sorts, of Colonial Spanish Terms and their English meanings. It is available under the Files - Reference Materials section of the site:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/16242

Hi there Stuart ,

I believe that you´re looking for the definition in reference to what is written on some of the old actas ?

If you are then a coyote is an offspring of a mestizo and an indian .

Check out the castas in the albums section .

Welester

> What is a coyote/o/a / collote ... ?
> The modern dictionary doesn't help.
> I assume it is a racial designation?
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Stuart mailto:stuartarms@gmail.com
>

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