Records for "No Pagados" and some others.

Hi:
 
When a new record or group of records is found in the source original (manuscripts), and it is not preserved in other media, I think that we should contribute to preserve them. One way to do this is write a notice to the "microfilm production project of the Mormon Church", because they has demonstrated that they can resolve this hard labor with their economic resources; the Mexican government generally not pay attention to this work because for the cost that they can't like to finance.
 
Is only a idea!
 
JRGL.
Mexico City.

Joseph Puentes  wrote:

Great Stories Elvira. . .i didn't know about the "No Pago" records but just had a feeling that there were and continue to be an assortment of records in each parish that have not been microfilmed and have not been made available to the general public. Your stories show this is true. Thanks for sharing and keep your accounts coming.

If you ever want to get some of your families oral history recorded and up on my podcast let me know. This

CALAVERA POEMS

Gracias Irma,  that was my first calavera ever.  My husband says that one must be inspired when writing one and that the person it's about must be your guide.  Mi suegra, que en paz descanse, wrote one for each of her children and they treasure them.  Give it a try and you might surprise yourself.    I did!
Yolanda Medina Perez 

Irma GomezLucero wrote:
Excellent Calavera.  How cool is that. 
Muy bien dicho!
Irma



From: ranchos@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joseph Puentes
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 12:39 AM
To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ranchos] CALAVERA POEMS

forgive me. . .I meant to reply the same day but decided to wait and
then promptly forgot.

wow! you make me feel like a god. . .how many can say they've had poety
written for them. I'm sure this will make my wife jealous, I can wait to
tell her!

Thank you Yolanda, what a nice thought and yes I do believe I'm getting
help from my primos, tios, tias, etc.

muchisimas

[Fwd: Mariano Gonzalez-Leal Speech]

thanks Emilie for this contribution:



-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Mariano Gonzalez-Leal Speech
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:43:20 -0800
From: Emilie Garcia
To: makas@...




Hi, Joseph,
 
I don't know if we can attach files to send to the group in an
e-mail, so I am sending the attached file to you to see if you think it
is appropriate for the group.  It is a speech made in 1998 by Mariano
Gonzalez-Leal to the II Encuentro Internacional Oratorio de San Felipe
Neri Mexico 1998.  I have seen this author mentioned by the group so I
started browsing the internet to see where I could find his books, and
I found this.  Apparently he was speaking to a group of priests, and he
was appealing to them to help us in our role in the third millenium.
The speech touched on some of what some of us have been exclaiming
about:  that the average Anglo here is so

CALAVERA POEMS

Excellent Calavera.  How cool is that. 
Muy bien dicho!
Irma



From: ranchos@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:ranchos@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joseph
Puentes
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 12:39 AM
To:
ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ranchos] CALAVERA
POEMS

forgive me. . .I meant to reply the same day but decided to wait
and
then promptly forgot.

wow! you make me feel like a god. . .how
many can say they've had poety
written for them. I'm sure this will make my
wife jealous, I can wait to
tell her!

Thank you Yolanda, what a nice
thought and yes I do believe I'm getting
help from my primos, tios, tias,
etc.

muchisimas,

joseph


Yolanda Medina-Perez
wrote:

>A tradition in Mexico is the writing of a CALAVERA for

>friends,family, public personalities and politicians.  Calaveras
are
>meant to be funny, they are not meant as eulogies, but are mild

>teasing.  There's usually some sort of rhyme, and they can be

>several lines to several stanzas in length.  They can also be poems

>of

Zaldívar surname from Zacatecas.

Hi, there! I am descended from the Zaldivars you've mentioned below. However, my PROVEN descent from them does not carry forward the Zaldivar surname. My great-grandmother was Francisca Saldivar, d/o Geronimo Saldivar and Petra Gomez; Geronimo Saldivar was the s/o Narciso Saldivar and Maria Antonia Morillo. (It's through Maria Antonia's mother, Juliana del Carmen Villavicencio that my family descends from the Zaldivars mentioned in your note to me.) Narciso was the s/o of Juan Josef Zesario Saldivar and Antonia Rossalia de Llamas; and Juan was the s/o Joseph Saldivar b. around 1700 in Zacatecas and his second wife Maria de la Luz Ortis. Joseph's my Zaldivar brick wall. I don't know anything more about him other than he had sons with his first wife. Sincerely, Marge Vallazza:)



On Nov 8, 2005, at 9:36 AM, José Román González López wrote:


Hi Margarita:

 

In the Coahuila-Nuevo Leon area, there are multiples families that have as your ancestors the "Zaldívar" from Zacatecas. In my

Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos

No. But I'm planning to research my ancestors from
Panuco this month.  If I do find any Zaldivars, I'll
let you know.

Albert Duarte Prieto
Santa Maria, California

--- Margarita Vallazza  wrote:

> Do you have any Zaldivars in your Panuco ancestry? 
> Marge:)
> On Nov 7, 2005, at 5:45 PM, Alberto Duarte wrote:
> 
> >
> >  How do you expect Americans to know the history
> of
> >  another country or group when they know very
> little
> >  about their own history?  If you don't believe
> me,
> >  just ask them. 
> >
> >  Emile, you are doing way better than me.  I can
> only
> >  trace my ancestors back to 1675 in Panuco,
> Zacatecas.
> >
> >  Alberto Duarte Prieto
> >  Santa Maria, California
> >
> >  --- Emilie Garcia 
> wrote:
> >
> >  > Yes, Arturo,
> >  >
> >  > It is so frustrating to know that Anglos here
> don't
> >  > have a clue about our history.  They are
> amazed when
> >  > I request records for 1640, or mention that I
> just
> >  >

Mexican Border

Emilie,

Just wanted to comment on what you wrote below...I once heard someone 
with a similar experience as your sister...  There response was "I 
didn't cross the border it crossed me!"

Here in Southern California...even though almost all the cities and 
streets are in Español.  People seem to forget that Mexico use to own 
all of the Southwest States.  And even though the border was moved to 
its current location, many of the people stayed.

As for me, I have been able to successfully trace most of my family 
ancestors to the 1700's in Colotlan and Totatiche, Jalisco.  I have 
hit some brick walls but I am currently trying different angles.  My 
fahter did cross the border, he came to the U.S. in the 1950's during 
the Bracero program.

Angie Godina
So. California


--- In ranchos@yahoogroups.com, "Emilie Garcia"  
wrote:
>My sister (born in Colorado as I was) once was told by her boss at 
work, "Well, Alicia, now that you have adopted this country as your 
own

Colotlan 1785 Census

Arturo,

 

I would be willing to assist on the translation of the 1785 Colotlan Census. Now one question, is that Simanca España or Salamanca España?

 

In either case let me know if you need my assistance.

 

Gracias............Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo...........San Jose, Ca, originara de Nochistlan, Zac Mexico.

Arturo Ramos wrote:

There is a 1785 Census of the Colotlan region that is held at the
Archives of Simanca in Spain and has bee digitized.

I was thinking that perhaps we could get a few volunteers from the
group to help transcribe it and then perhaps even publish it.  I think
it would be very useful for many people in the group and as far as I
know, it has not previously been published.

The document can be found on Archivos Espanoles en Red at:

ES.47161.AGS/19.8//SGU,7015,2

Let me know if you are interested in helping out on this project.



Zaldívar surname from Zacatecas.

Hi Margarita:
 
In the Coahuila-Nuevo Leon area, there are multiples families that have as your ancestors the "Zaldívar" from Zacatecas. In my family tree I have ancestors with Zaldívar surname: 1) Vicente de Zaldívar y Reza who born about 1599/1601 in Zacatecas and dead about 1661 en Saltillo, Nueva Vizcaya, he was son of Juan Guerra de Reza and Magdalena or Ana de Mendoza; Vicente married twice, one with María de Sosa, daughter of Alonso de Farías and Ana de Sosa, for this couple I have seven children in my records: Vicente, Mariana, Agustín, Margarita, Inés, Ana and María; the second marriage was with Juliana de las Casas (when she was widower of Vicente, then married with Diego Fernández de Montemayor, her second husband), Juliana was daughter of Bernabé de las Casas and Beatriz Navarro y Rodríguez; in my information, their had only a
son: Juan. Vicente Sr. was the companion of Juan de Oñate to the Nuevo Mexico expedition; Vicente is the father of various important people that

Colotlan 1785 Census

There is a 1785 Census of the Colotlan region that is held at the 
Archives of Simanca in Spain and has bee digitized.

I was thinking that perhaps we could get a few volunteers from the 
group to help transcribe it and then perhaps even publish it.  I think 
it would be very useful for many people in the group and as far as I 
know, it has not previously been published.

The document can be found on Archivos Espanoles en Red at:

ES.47161.AGS/19.8//SGU,7015,2

Let me know if you are interested in helping out on this project.




Trip to Jalisco & Zacatecas

Josie:

If I remember correctly, Estaban Valdes Salazar's family in Totatiche 
are relative newcomers since their ancestor only immigrated to the area 
from Spain in the mid-1700s.  There is actually an older Valdes line in 
the area who were originally "Llanos y Valdes" that goes way back... 
one of the first families to settle in Jerez, Zacatecas in the 1500s 
and then a branch moved to what is now Villa Guerrero to resettle the 
main hacienda there after one of the many indigenous uprisings that had 
led it to be abandoned.  That family is very prominent... lots of army 
officers and to date about half of the mayors of Villa Guerrero are 
Valdeses from this line.


>>Hi Arturo! I just now had time to try to catch up on my e-mail (Mickey
Garcia and I were in Monclova, MX  for a few days) and just read the 
above message you sent a few weeks ago.  You mention that you are going 
to try to interview Esteban Valdes Salazar while you are in Mexico 
during December and January.  I am

Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos

Do you have any Zaldivars in your Panuco ancestry? Marge:)

On Nov 7, 2005, at 5:45 PM, Alberto Duarte wrote:


How do you expect Americans to know the history of

another country or group when they know very little

about their own history?  If you don't believe me,

just ask them. 



Emile, you are doing way better than me.  I can only

trace my ancestors back to 1675 in Panuco, Zacatecas.



Alberto Duarte Prieto

Santa Maria, California



--- Emilie Garcia wrote:



> Yes, Arturo,

>

> It is so frustrating to know that Anglos here don't

> have a clue about our history.  They are amazed when

> I request records for 1640, or mention that I just

> downloaded a census for 1650, for example.  They say

> "They have records in Mexico that go back that

> far?--Who wrote them?"  (they have no clue as to how

> literate and educated the priests and notaries

> public were).  I tell them that I can trace some

> ancestors to 1543 (in Panuco, Zacatecas).  I just

>

Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos

Arturo,
 
Yes, I know how clueless Anglos are about a lot of things.  Have
you watched Jay Leno when he goes out with a microphone to college campuses and
asks them what they know about something simple that you would think they would
know or shows them a picture of someone in the news and they don't know what he
is talking about?  It is scary.  Jay does that, I think, to
demonstrate the sad level of education of all our young people today.  We
are slouching towards Gomorrah.
 
And no, I think you are doing better than me if you have an unbroken
line of documentation that far back.  I was told that all people
surnamed Olague with a long history in Zacatecas are descendants of Miguel
Olague who was with Onate when when he went to Nuevo Mexico in 1598.  That
is my father's surname.  Someone in Mexico told my sister about Miguel
Olague.  Then when I went to the New Mexico State archives I was told that
all Marquez (my mother's surname) with a long history there descend

Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos

How do you expect Americans to know the history of
another country or group when they know very little
about their own history?  If you don't believe me,
just ask them.  

Emile, you are doing way better than me.  I can only
trace my ancestors back to 1675 in Panuco, Zacatecas.

Alberto Duarte Prieto
Santa Maria, California

--- Emilie Garcia  wrote:

> Yes, Arturo,
> 
> It is so frustrating to know that Anglos here don't
> have a clue about our history.  They are amazed when
> I request records for 1640, or mention that I just
> downloaded a census for 1650, for example.  They say
> "They have records in Mexico that go back that
> far?--Who wrote them?"  (they have no clue as to how
> literate and educated the priests and notaries
> public were).  I tell them that I can trace some
> ancestors to 1543 (in Panuco, Zacatecas).  I just
> can't trace all the lines back that far and there
> are such huge gaps sometimes due to the upheavals
> caused in the founding of a

Trip to Jalisco & Zacatecas

Arturo Ramos
wrote:

Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 04:01:44 -0000      From: "Arturo
Ramos" arturo.ramos2@...

Subject: Trip to Jalisco,
Zacatecas

I
will be spending about three weeks this December and January in Jalisco and
Zacatecas and am hoping to make it to the parrishes in Colotlan and ,

Tlaltenango, perhaps Atolinga as well as the
archives in Guadalajara...

 Question... has anyone ever
asked to see the actual books held at the parrishes? I am thinking of asking to
photograph some of them, but don't know how well that would go over.  Any tips would be appreciated. I am also
going to try to do an interview with Esteban Valdes Salazar who has published
some very good genealogy and history books on Totatiche. He is the local
"cronista" and has obviously spent lots of time pouring over old
archival  documents, including the
transcription of the 1591 census of Tlaxcaltec migrants to Colotlan and the
entire 1770 Totatiche census (over 3000 names). So if there are any

Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos

Great Stories Elvira. . .i didn't know about the "No Pago" records but
just had a feeling that there were and continue to be an assortment of
records in each parish that have not been microfilmed and have not been
made available to the general public. Your stories show this is true.
Thanks for sharing and keep your accounts coming.



If you ever want to get some of your families oral history recorded and
up on my podcast let me know. This goes for others as well, just
organize some of the more interesting stories and we'll work out the
details of getting them recorded.



thanks,



joseph





elviraz wrote:



Arturo, Emilie,
 
 See my comments below.


Elvira
 


----- Original Message Follows -----

From: "Arturo Ramos" arturo.ramos2@...>

To: ranchos@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos

Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 06:10:58 -0000
 
> You know that's right Elvira. 
I talk to the Nordic people

> at my  family history center and they

Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos


Arturo, Emilie,
 
 See my comments below.

Elvira
 

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Arturo Ramos" arturo.ramos2@...>
To:
ranchos@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[ranchos] Re: Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos
Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 06:10:58
-0000
 
> You know that's right Elvira.  I talk to the Nordic
people
> at my  family history center and they cannot believe
that
> there are even  records for Mexico in the 1700s let
alone
> records that list maternal  and paternal names up to
the
> grandparents... along with race/caste,  etc.  As wrong
as
> the motives may have been for maintaining all of  this
>
information... knowledge=control and the maintainance of
> information
like this was obviously meant to categorize
> and keep  people in
their place.  Nevertheless this
> information gives us a 
beautiful window into the lives
> of our ancestors.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
used to work  in a place where it was common to have to

Archivo General de la Nación. Guía General: Nueva España

Thanks Emilie,



your post below has inspired me to create a new folder in the Links
area called:

Divisions, Estados, Cabezeras, etc.



Have a look:



http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ranchos/links/Divisions__Estados___001131287693/



joseph





Emilie Garcia wrote:


cite="">
 
 
This map really helps me visualize the location of the earliest
provinces settled by the Conquistadores.  Now I know where Nueva
Galicia, Nueva Vizcaya, Nueva Leon, Nueva Santander, Nuevo Mexico, etc.
were.  This map also shows Texas, Louisiana, and Florida and the
Philipines as Spanish territories.
 
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA ---

Archivo General de la Nación. Guía General: Nueva España

 


 

This map really helps me visualize the location of the earliest
provinces settled by the Conquistadores.  Now I know where Nueva Galicia,
Nueva Vizcaya, Nueva Leon, Nueva Santander, Nuevo Mexico, etc. were.  This
map also shows Texas, Louisiana, and Florida and the Philipines as Spanish
territories.

 

Emilie Garcia

Port Orchard, WA ---

Settling of Nueva Galicia; early 16th Century

 


 

In the above link to History of Mexico - Indigenous Jalisco, this article
by John P. Schmal states that the colonial province of Nueva Galicia included,
besides Jalisco,  only present-day Zacatecas, Aguascalientes, Nayarit and
the northwest corner San Luis Potosi, and that the Spaniards and
some Indian allies began settlement there in the early 16th
century.   The article also describes which Indian tribes
settled in various towns.  This article sounds familiar.  Maybe
someone has posted a link to it before?

 

Emilie Garcia

Port Orchard, WA ---

Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos

Yes, Arturo,
 
It is so frustrating to know that Anglos here don't have a clue about our
history.  They are amazed when I request records for 1640, or mention
that I just downloaded a census for 1650, for example.  They say "They have
records in Mexico that go back that far?--Who wrote them?"  (they have no
clue as to how literate and educated the priests and notaries public
were).  I tell them that I can trace some ancestors to 1543 (in Panuco,
Zacatecas).  I just can't trace all the lines back that far and there are
such huge gaps sometimes due to the upheavals caused in the founding of a nation
and opening up of frontiers and the passage of time.  I tell them that
Jerez where my father was born is on the National Register of Historical Places
in Mexico as a well-preserved Spanish Colonial city founded in the early
1500s.  They think their 1620 settlements in Massachusetts are the oldest
in the Americas. I don't even think they realize how far back our
pre-Colombian

Bautismos de Hijos Legitimos vs. Hijos Naturales de Jerez, Zac.

Muchisimas gracias, Jose,
 
Yes, someone else sent me that film number that I didn't know about because
I had always searched for Jerez, not knowing that Jerez is now called Ciudad
Garcia.
 
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA ---
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 4:43
PM
Subject: [ranchos] Bautismos de Hijos
Legitimos vs. Hijos Naturales de Jerez, Zac.

Hi Emilie:
 
Among the microfilms listed in the FHLC from Jerez, Zac. there are some entitled
"bautismos de Hijos Naturales", but I don't saw any
of the 1903 year. ¿Do you has had this microfilms? Another option is
"Registro Civil" In these last records, there is
1903 year:
 
Nacimientos 1903-1904
FHL INTL Film
1081921
 
I think that is good idea see this microfilm, maybe, that records missing
are that which repository was the parish, but for the information