-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Somos Primos JULY 2006 Table of Contents lq1
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 20:26:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: MIMILOZANO@aol.com
To: MIMILOZANO@aol.com
Click here: Somos Primos: Dedicated to Hispanic Heritage and Diversity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_%C3%81vila_Camacho
The above link is for a brief bio on the winner of Mexico's 1940 election along with a history of his administration.
Since we are celebrating our American democracy today and in view of the recent Mexican presidential election, I found the following article very interesting as I am one not familiar with Mexican history. The outgoing Presidente Fox seems to be part of an ongoing disappointing struggle to bring true democracy to the land of our forebears. I found this article in an old magazine that was part of my husband's stepfather's effects left in an old trunk. Maybe someone in the group can tell us briefly what has occurred since this article was written.
I had mentioned to the group that my local FHC here in Port Orchard, WA would be closed at the end of May, and I was afraid that the 35 films I have on loan would be sent back to Salt Lake, but since then everything that was in the local FHC was moved to the nearby Bremerton, WA FHC lock, stock and barrel. Myself and a few other regular patrons have been helping the director of the new combined library relocate both Port Orchard and Bremerton libraries to their new location on the third floor of the building where the former Bremerton FHC was located. We moved everything from the basement there to the third floor, and I just recently helped to combine the permanent loan films from both libraries and was pleased to see all my films there. We were pleased to see that we now have many more films, etc. available to us although since I am the only Hispanic doing research, the only films from Mexico are mine.
Emily,
That's very good news all around (1) that your films are still there (2) you have a FHC not too much further to go to, and (3) they are lucky to have you on board to help with the move.
Try and stay cool and happy 4th.....even though you are working.
Best Regards,
Alicia
Here is my maternal lineage that I discussed in my post “No Tengo Verguenza.” I’ve posted an asterik * by my great grandfather, the one who his grandchildren believed had been born in Spain. As you can see, he and all of his ancestors were born in Chihuahua.
Hello!
I am interested in the haciendas in Zacatecas, Particularly in hacienda del
Mezquite,(Fresnillo) and Hacienda de San Juan de Ahorcados, jurisdiccion de
Mazapil. I would appreciate any historical information such as living
Hello Elvira:
Regarding your desire to learn about haciendas in Colonial Mexico. I don't
know if there is information specific to the haciendas you listed, but there
is an excellent book that gives an in-depth description of hacienda
organization and daily life. I believe that what is described was typical
for all haciendas during the Spanish Colonial period in Mexico. A Jesuit
Hacienda in Colonial Mexico by Herman W. Conrad is available from
Borderlands Bookstore in San Antonio, Texas. Their website is
www.borderlandsbooks.com. If you did not know about this bookstore, let me
tell you that it is an excellent source for hard-to-find resource materials
for historians and genealogists.
Jose Aguayo
It's Konrad, with a K. Spell it that way or else you won't get a hit
on WorldCat if you want to borrow it via Interlibrary Loan (ILL). But
I agree about Borderlands Bookstore being an excellent source. George
Farias is a great person to deal with regarding acquistion of
materials, etc. I heartily endorse this resource. Marge:)
On Jul 2, 2006, at 1:18 PM, Jose Aguayo wrote:
> Hello Elvira:
> Regarding your desire to learn about haciendas in Colonial Mexico. I
> don't
> know if there is information specific to the haciendas you listed, but
> there
> is an excellent book that gives an in-depth description of hacienda
> organization and daily life. I believe that what is described was
> typical
> for all haciendas during the Spanish Colonial period in Mexico. A
> Jesuit
> Hacienda in Colonial Mexico by Herman W. Conrad is available from
> Borderlands Bookstore in San Antonio, Texas. Their website is
> www.borderlandsbooks.com. If you did not know about this bookstore,
> let me
> tell you that it is an excellent source for hard-to-find resource
> materials
> for historians and genealogists.
> Jose Aguayo
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "elviraz"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 2:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] research Digest, Vol 5,Issue 25
> Haciendas de
> Zacatecas
>
>
> Hello!
>
> I am interested in the haciendas in Zacatecas, Particularly in
> hacienda del
> Mezquite,(Fresnillo) and Hacienda de San Juan de Ahorcados,
> jurisdiccion de
> Mazapil. I would appreciate any historical information such as living
> conditions, life in general, social divisions, etc. you could share.
>
> I want find out why my ancestors decided to bring colonos to Coahuila
> and
> Durango from that area back in the heyday of both haciendas. Also
> anything
> on Ssanta Maria de las Nieves and la Gruñidora (also in Nieves).
>
> Elvira
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
> Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 3:02 PM
> Subject: research Digest, Vol 5, Issue 25
>
>
>> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>> DAILY DIGEST
>> ****************************************
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Haciendas in Zacatecas (Edward Serros)
>> 2. Re: Haciendas in Zacatecas (Joseph Puentes)
>> 3. Re: Haciendas in Zacatecas (M. Vallazza)
>> 4. Re: Surnames: Mora; de Robles; Salamanca and Bautista
>> (Patricia Corbera)
>> 5. Re: Surnames: Mora; de Robles; Salamanca and Bautista
>> (Patricia Corbera)
>> 6. Juanacatic (Alicia Carrillo)
>> 7. Rosalio Jauregui & Pomposa Gonzales (Alicia Carrillo)
>> 8. Fill Out Your Profiles Please (Joseph Puentes)
>> 9. Re: Rosalio Jauregui & Pomposa Gonzales (yolie wilkerson)
>> 10. Your GGrandparents (arturoramos)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:40:15 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Edward Serros
>> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Haciendas in Zacatecas
>> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
>> Message-ID:
>> > 0&uid=26&tid=2&3ffc63e4fb7c62171ee7842d8925b685@www.nuestrosranchos.co
>> m>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>>
>>
>> Marge,
>>
>> I have information on some of the haciendas in Zacatecas. Which ones
>> are
>> you interested in? What part of Zacatecas? What type of information
>> are
>> you interested in? What years? Can you read Spanish?
>>
>> I have material both in Spanish and Enlish. Some are formal journal
>> articles or books, others are from materials I have been able to gleen
>> from Zacatecas web sites or from present day local Mexican
>> "historians."
>> I may or may not have information that will help you.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:46:15 -0500
>> From: Joseph Puentes
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Haciendas in Zacatecas
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> Message-ID: <44A45837.7090502@nc.rr.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>>
>> Let's put the information in the files area if you like. let me know.
>>
>> joseph
>>
>>
>> Edward Serros wrote:
>>
>>> Marge,
>>>
>>> I have information on some of the haciendas in Zacatecas. Which ones
>>> are
>>> you interested in? What part of Zacatecas? What type of information
>>> are
>>> you interested in? What years? Can you read Spanish?
>>>
>>> I have material both in Spanish and Enlish. Some are formal journal
>>> articles or books, others are from materials I have been able to
>>> gleen
>>> from Zacatecas web sites or from present day local Mexican
>>> "historians."
>>> I may or may not have information that will help you.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>>> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>>>
>>> To post, send email to:
>>> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>>>
>>> To change your subscription, log on to:
>>> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 18:07:58 -0500
>> From: "M. Vallazza"
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Haciendas in Zacatecas
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> Message-ID: <6329344b6d81a3b6ce6f097a616f835e@kc.rr.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>>
>> 95 percent of my grandmother's maternal ancestry is in Jerez. One of
>> her ancestresses was Agueda del Rio (aka de la Torre and/or de los
>> Rios) and her dispensa de matrimonio was given at the hacienda de San
>> Antonio de los Griegos en la feligresia de El Ojo Caliente. Which is
>> all Greek to me.:) Why would they sign this dispensation in Ojo
>> Caliente? Anyway, have you any information on this? Thank you. I
>> also wholeheartedly agree with Joseph that it would be a kindness to
>> all your primos/primas if you'd upload some of the data to our files
>> (whichever one Joseph said). Thank you very much. Marge:)
>> On Jun 29, 2006, at 5:40 PM, Edward Serros wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Marge,
>>>
>>> I have information on some of the haciendas in Zacatecas. Which ones
>>> are you interested in? What part of Zacatecas? What type of
>>> information are you interested in? What years? Can you read Spanish?
>>>
>>> I have material both in Spanish and Enlish. Some are formal journal
>>> articles or books, others are from materials I have been able to
>>> gleen
>>> from Zacatecas web sites or from present day local Mexican
>>> "historians." I may or may not have information that will help you.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
>>> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>>>
>>> To post, send email to:
>>> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>>>
>>> To change your subscription, log on to:
>>> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 16:48:34 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Patricia Corbera
>> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Surnames: Mora; de Robles; Salamanca
>> and Bautista
>> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
>> Message-ID: <20060629234834.65048.qmail@web81104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> Maria,
>>
>> I neglected to mention that I will order Film # 0443906," informacion
>> matrimonial," for the 4 Feb 1877 marriage. Hopefully that marriage
>> will
>> appear on that film supplying additional information to confirm my
>> extending of this line. The film that I actually viewed (#0443974)
>> was
>> for "matrimonios," only, and contained very little information. Pat
>>
>> Patricia Corbera wrote:
>> Hi Maria,
>>
>> Here's what I have so far -
>>
>> Trinidad Serrano b. abt 1880, Momax, Zac. (Trinidad is mentioned in
>> son
>> Florentino's bapt. record of 21 April 1894, Momax, Zac. I've not been
>> able
>> to located Trinidad's birth record, and there's been a question as to
>> her
>> actual date of birth. On her Alien Head-Tax Receipt dated Aug 1927,
>> it's
>> noted that she was 47. Plus I located Trinidad residing with her
>> daughter
>> Eulalia and son-in-law Angel Fregoso in Westwood CA on the 1930 Fed
>> Census. Trinidad was noted as being 50 at the time of the census.
>>
>>
>> Trinidad Serrano daughter of Juan Serrano (Juan's is another line
>> that I
>> thought I had correctly researched, but then I ran into that famous
>> "brick
>> wall. " Juan Serrano married Jesus Salamanca. I located a marriage
>> record
>> for a Juan Serrano y Jesus Salamanca dated 07 FEb 1877, Tlaltenango de
>> Sanchez Roman, Zac. I have a copy of that marriage record, but it
>> didn't
>> mention the names of their parents. The location, Momax. Batch #
>> M607146
>> F# 0443974. Numerous children showing a Juan Serrano y Jesus
>> Salamanca as
>> being parents, but years prior to this marriage date of 1877.
>>
>> Maria De Jesus Salamanca Mora (aka Jesus Salamanca) b. 14 June 1845
>> S. M.
>> Mecatabasco, Zac. Daughter of Jose Victorio De La Trinidad Salamanca
>> (aka
>> Trinidad Salamanca) b. abt 1811 Guadalupe de Juanacatis, (Mexico) y
>> Maria
>> Seberiana Mora b. abt 1822 07 Oct 1840 S. M. Mecatabasco.
>>
>> Trinidad Salamanca, son of Joseph Phelipe Salamanca Salsedo (aka:
>> Felipe
>> Salamanca) b. 04 Sept 1767 S. M. Mecatabasco, Zac. y Juan Maria
>> Batista
>> (Baupta.) m. 29 Jan 1793 S. M. Mecatabasco, Zac.
>>
>> Felipe Salamanca son of Joseph Manuel de Salamanca y Bernarda Salsedo.
>>
>> Maria Seberiana Mora daughter of Nicanor Mora y Josefa de Robles.
>>
>> Thank you for your help... Pat
>>
>>
>>
>> MARIA E GUTIERREZ wrote:
>> International Genealogical Index / Mexico - 2 Select records to
>> download -
>> (50 maximum) [input] 1. SEVERIANA MORA MARTINEZ - International
>> Genealogical Index
>> Gender: Female Christening: 22 FEB 1862 El Sagrario Or Santo Domingo,
>> Zacatecas, Zacatecas, Mexico
>> [input] 2. SEVERIANA MORA - International Genealogical Index
>> Gender: Female Marriage: 05 MAY 1879 El Sagrario Or Santo Domingo,
>> Zacatecas, Zacatecas, Mexico
>> Pat,
>> This is what I found when I did a search of Severiana Mora. Is this
>> what
>> you were looking for?
>>
>> Maria Gutierrez-Uhlenburg
>>
>>
>> Patricia Silva Corbera
>> wrote:
>> I have the following ancestors, that I located on FHC IGI files -
>> Maria Seberiana Mora, place of birth: Guadeloupe, Caribbean daughter
>> of
>> Nicanor Mora y Josefa de Robles. I have not located a birth record for
>> Seberiana. She (age 18) married Jose Victorio de la Trinidad Salamanca
>> (age 29) on 07 Oct 1840 - Parish Santa Maria Mecatabasco, Villa Del
>> Rufugio, Zacatecas. No birth record for 'Trinidad," has been located
>> either. On their marriage IGI Trinidad's place of birth is Guadalupe
>> De
>> Juanacatis,,,Mexico. 1). Where is Guadaupe De Juanacatis (in Mexico or
>> Carribbean?)
>> 2). Was there a migration period during the time frame of 1821 to 1840
>> from the Caribbean Islands to Mexico ? Or is this an example of FHC
>> indexing error?
>> Thank You,
>> Pat
>>
That's about what I anticipated. I consider those very small numbers of European soldiers. There for a very brief period. Probably gringo tourists have had a greater genetic impact on Mexico.
Way more Mexicans volunteered for the left leaning Republicans during the Spanish Civil War against conserative Generalisimo Francisco Franco and his fascist Falange Party.
-To this day Mexico presents a very modern and European face to Europe.
In France Mexicans are considered the rich relations, Spaniards the poor cousins because its mostly wealthy Mexicans who make it to Paris, and the Riviera. There was a Mexican expatriate community in France at the time of the French intervention. They conspired with Napoleon and his Spanish born wife, I believe her name was Empress Eugenie, to place Maximillian on the Mexican throne.
My father went to Paris to celebrate Mexican Independence one year. Its quite an event there, I'm told.
Mexico has an extremely wealthy elite. Only the United States has more multi-millionaires than Mexico.
Yes, Porfirio Diaz is the bogey man of recent Mexican history. It was a reaction against him in particular that sparked the Mexican Revolution.
That revolution gave birth to the political system that still dominates Mexico today.
A six year term for the president without reelection is one of the basic tenets of post revolutionary Mexico. A cycle now unfolding south of the border.
The Empress was Eugenie Montijo--she also had Scottish blood...and she
was very proper. Napoleon III was unfaithful to her from the
beginning. She and Napoleon had one son, who died during the Boer War,
in the late 1890s. At any rate, her life was not a very happy one.
Marge:)
On Jul 2, 2006, at 2:53 PM, erniealderete@charter.net wrote:
> -To this day Mexico presents a very modern and European face to Europe.
> In France Mexicans are considered the rich relations, Spaniards the
> poor cousins because its mostly wealthy Mexicans who make it to Paris,
> and the Riviera. There was a Mexican expatriate community in France at
> the time of the French intervention. They conspired with Napoleon and
> his Spanish born wife, I believe her name was Empress Eugenie, to
> place Maximillian on the Mexican throne.
>
> My father went to Paris to celebrate Mexican Independence one year.
> Its quite an event there, I'm told.
>
> Mexico has an extremely wealthy elite. Only the United States has more
> multi-millionaires than Mexico.
>
> Yes, Porfirio Diaz is the bogey man of recent Mexican history. It was
> a reaction against him in particular that sparked the Mexican
> Revolution.
>
> That revolution gave birth to the political system that still
> dominates Mexico today.
>
> A six year term for the president without reelection is one of the
> basic tenets of post revolutionary Mexico. A cycle now unfolding south
> of the border.
>
Again, how "sweet it is," another linking with "familia." Though distant in "kinship," it's still a linking through common ancestors, and to quote Deena, "about two dozen ways."
Thank you Deena, Charles and NuestrosRanchos.,
I should be ashamed to say so after the escandalo I made about misspellings. But I have no shame. No tengo verguenza. Nunca tuve.
I’ve been researching my maternal side for many years with little luck.
Nathan, I love it when we find the truth even when we know that families stories and legends are going to be dispelled. I made my family angry at my research findings when I ruined the story with the facts.. My mother was blond and blue eyed, her mother and grandmother also typical Spanish coloring, my grandmother said her father was from Spain and her mothers line from Tamazula Jalisco was pure Spanish too .. in doing the research I found a Mulato line that proved we weren't pure Spaniards as they seemed to want to believe... I find great joy in being able to reclaim all that I am and doing the genealogy puts a solid foundation to my family lines. I think part of that need to be Spanish is from the predujice and color conciousness we encountered in California as well as other parts of the states. Now a fews years later at family reunions we find it much easier to open the doors to all the family members. In just my line alone with the birth of my twin gr-grandkids we
just added Jewish and Italian to the lines.. We truly are a rainbow family from way back.. I do appreciate your sharing your story, we have so many old wounds to heal and doors to open with our work in genealogy.
Linda in B.C.
NathanJones wrote:
I should be ashamed to say so after the escandalo I made about misspellings. But I have no shame. No tengo verguenza. Nunca tuve.
Iâve been researching my maternal side for many years with little luck.
I now know why. My great grandfather Jose Estevan Rodriguez Montoya who died a few years before I was born told his many grandchildren he was born in the mid 1870s in Spain. He told them he came to Chihuahua during the gold rush of the late 19th century. He claimed Seville was his birthplace, and that he still had a brother living just outside the U.S. naval base at Cadiz.
So, for years I looked for a birth record for him in Spain. And for a record of his trans-Atlantic crossing.
Last year I found his actual birth record. He lied! He was born in Hidalgo del Parral in 1867. When I waved his birth document at the last Rodriguez family reunion every jaw in the room dropped!
They asked me why would he lie about his age. They assumed only women lied about their age.I suggested it was because he never wanted his wife to know how much older he was than her.
Today, the other shoe dropped. Not only wasnât he himself Spanish, neither was his father, grandfather, nor great grandfather! They were all born in Chihuahua. It was a complete fabrication. A family myth. One we accepted without question.
Grandpa Jose was snow-white, all his children were white con ojos de color, ditto his grandchildren, great grandchildren and so forth. So it was plausible that he was European.
I could not find the records before because Rodrigues had been mis-spelt Rodriges!
So the lesson is donât accept family lore on face value. Examine, corroborate, investigate, exploreâ¦
And things are not always what they appear to be. Grandpa looked rubio, guerro, blanco, gabacho, for all the world to see. But he was really mezclado, a mestizo, a typical Mexican. Un hijo de La Malinche. A son of Dona Marina.
And sometimes misspellings are just that!
Have a great 4th of July weekend.
We do have a lot of healing to do.
I like the racial reconciliation they are attempting in South Africa.
In Malaysia they have a sort of Thanksgiving day when the different races (Malay, East Indian, Chinese and indigenous tribes) invite each other over for dinner.
I was in Asuncion a few years ago and it struck me what a cohesive society they have. Almost the entire nation is bilingual in Guarani (known as Tupi in Brazil), and Spanish. Virtually 98% of the people are mestizos. Paraguay is a poor country, but its soul seems to me intact.
My stepfather's family was Californio. His mother snuck fresh handmake tortillas and tamales out to Joaquin Murietta while he was on the run from the new Anglo power structure.
His family name is now Palmer. They felt forced to abandon their true name, Palma, because of the racism they encountered.
I think DNA testing for our purposes has changed the way we see race. Progress may be incremental, but I see a brighter future.
An interesting question regarding denial/acceptance of our multi-faceted
origins:
Do you suppose that denial comes in part because of a need to feel equal to
others? Could it be that some areas would propagate such legends because
they not only witnessed severe discrimination in the United States, but also in
their own homeland or region?
My maternal family insisted that they had French blood in them - so far, I
have found no Herrera or Luna lines attached to Tlaltenango that substantiates
this.
My paternal line (from Coahuila/Nuevo Leon) never highlighted their Spanish
side, rather they seemed more proud of their indigenous background.
In fact, it seems that both sides of the family behave as if they weren't
from the same country - could it be regional, such as Zacatecas would be more
provincial in their thinking while Coahuila natives might be more independent
because of their pioneering spirit or relative proximity to the states?
Just a thought....
Esperanza
My Coahuila paternal line also highlighted their indigenous ancestry, directly descended from Emperor Moctezuma.
Many white people in Oklahoma claim Native American heritage even if they don't have a drop of Indian blood because it makes them feel part of the land, and culture. Of a grand tradition.
So, fortunately, denial and acceptance transcends color and race.
We Chicanos are so mesclados that we really don't know where one tradition picks up and the other leaves off. Are we eating something Mexican when we have a flour tortilla? Is menudo from Mexico, or Spain? They enjoy menudo in Manila, Mexico City and Madrid.
We've had a legend about being kidnapped by Indians in my family. I'll bet most of our families have a similar tale.
My father insisted it was his grandmother who was kidnapped by Apaches in Texas.
She did speak a few words of Apache. I knew her during the first ten years of my life.
To my shock I was able to document the kidnapping last year. It happened in Coahuila a generation earlier than we believed. But I have the names, dates, all the facts to something I thought would be forever illusive. An oral tradtion, a myth.
http://www.genealogy.com/users/a/l/d/Ernie-Alderete/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/moctezuma
http://www.familytreedna.com/(hcojjivgekjvu155hef2gy55)/public/alderete
Ernie, What was her name? I couldn't determine which one she was.
Marge:)
> We've had a legend about being kidnapped by Indians in my family. I'll
> bet most of our families have a similar tale.
> My father insisted it was his grandmother who was kidnapped by Apaches
> in Texas.
> She did speak a few words of Apache. I knew her during the first ten
> years of my life.
>
> To my shock I was able to document the kidnapping last year. It
> happened in Coahuila a generation earlier than we believed. But I have
> the names, dates, all the facts to something I thought would be
> forever illusive. An oral tradtion, a myth.
>
I have a wealth of information on my paternal Romo family from Rancho Nuevo. Coahuila. But the story is very involved, and I'm sure confusing.
Another Romo rsearcher in Texas compiled this valuable data and shared it with me.
It includes beautiful narratives of how the Romos took on the challenge of the worldwide flu pandemic of 1918, and never came down with the illness despite repeated exposure.
He describes curanderas in our family, their methods, skills and techniques.
How the women baked bread in clay ovens.
I remember my great grandmother, Antonia Gonzales Ramirez, who was born in Brackettville, Texas in 1879 being a curandera. I recall her finding water with a divining rod and using herbal cures she must have learned from Indians. I remember one, or two Indian words.
My mother taught me "korima." That means money, I think, in Taruhmara.
My great great grandmother, Maria Silvestra Romo, was born around 1856 in Rnacho Nuevo, now La Madrid, Coahuila.
Her parents were Miguel Romo and Maria Juana Ybarra.
Miguel's parents are my link with Nuestros Ranchos. They were the ones who left Aguascalientes to settle in Rancho Nuevo/Nadadores/Parras, Coahuila at the dawn of the 19th century.
Maria Silvestra Romo had two full-blooded sisters. She was the middle sister. Her older sister, I believe, was Maria del Carmen, or Carmel, Romo. She is the Carmen referenced in the excerpt below:
JUANITA5 VERDUSCO born Abt. 1889, and died
Unknown. She married GONZALO ROMO December 06, 1905 in Rancho Nuevo, Coah., Mexico, son of MIGUEL ROMO and NATIVIDAD RIOJAS ( the last of Miguel's several spouses). He was born Abt. 1884 in Rancho Nuevo, Coah.,
Notes for JUANITA VERDUSCO:
Mom thinks Juanita was abandoned by her mother. The story goes that Juanita was given to Carmen Romo by Indians when Juanita was six years old. Carmen was Grandma Tonia's half-sister.
---
I'm making incredible advances on my maternal family tree and hope to upload it to Nuestros Ranchos to join my paternal tree in the next month, or two.
Esperanza,
Yes, an interesting question. My father (from Jerez, Zac) was very provincial in his thinking. He did not like blacks or Asians (yet I have found that several in his lineage were described as "mulato"), and he told me that his great-grandfather had blue eyes and was French. My searches have not turned up anyone described as French, but I think I know why so many people there think that if someone has blue eyes, they must be "French". When I went with my parents to Jerez in 1962, we stopped to get gas in a small town and we had lunch there too. It seemed to me that most of the people in that town (don't know which town it was) had blue eyes even if they were dark-skinned. I had the temerity (I am a sin verguenza too) to comment to a young man there (much to my father's consternation) that I was surprised to see so many people with blue eyes in that town, and he said it was because "los franceses estuvieron por aqui". I think he was referring to the French invasion in th
e 1860's
. If my father had an ancestor with blue eyes, it was probably because of his Spanish or Basque heritage and little mixing with the indigenous people.
My husband's mother and her sisters were proud of their European looks and told me that their ancestors were Spanish and had never mixed with the indigenous. I asked one of his aunts in Mexico City where in Spain they were from and she told me "Barcelona". Well, I have researched those ancestors clear back to the Jalisco of the early 1700s and have found no mention of anyone from Spain, much less Barcelona. My husband's more recent ancestors all seemed to have been merchants, city people, and his aunt would refer to some people in Mexico as "los inditos" or "los rancheros". She was a profesora in Mexico City and was a former nun. Go figure.
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA --
I've heard this story about the French Intervention many times. But there were very few actual French soldiers involved. Mainly officers commanding native troops.
I have several tenants from the state of Guerrero. From the outskirts of Acapulco. They call their home area "Tierra Caliente." And they see things very differently than I do.
The skin disorder vertiiglio runs in my family. My tenants insist the discoloration is due to the mezcla. That the Indian and Spanish blood didn't mix properly, resulting in uneven skin tones.
I am told that the small Pacific coast state of Nayarit has a high percentage of ojos de color.
Hola Nathan:
The fact is that French infantry and cavalry numbered more than 3,000 at the
Battle of Puebla on May 5, 1862. They were reinforced by more than 5,000
Spanish soldiers. No one really knows how much intermixing there was
between these forces and the Mexican Criollos and Mestizos during the
occupation and reign of Maximilian. To complicate matters still further,
Maximilian's personal guard was made up of a brigade of Austrian soldiers
selected for their size. My information is from a military history volume
titled "El Ejercito Mexicano".
Jose Aguayo
Jose,
You know, I have heard about the Mexican government in Mexico City at one time wanting to emulate the monarchies of Europe. I think I heard about a president named Diaz I think (who my father described as "a very bad man"), who was a mestizo, I think, not very dark, but not white enough, so he used white powder to make himself look white. When he invited some crowned heads of Europe to visit, he had these tall handsome white dragoons keep all the little brown indigenous people off the streets where the royal entourages would be passing in their carriages. I think he wanted to make the city look European, even to the color of the citizens. Was he emulating Maximilian and also recruited guards for their color and size for show? Has anyone else heard that story?
Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA ----
This is a wonderful story. Sad that it took years of you researching, but what an imagination Jose Estevan Rodriguez had to fabricate such a story. Leading me to believe he was an educated man, who knew about Seville, Cadiz and Spain in general. My husband and I had the pleasure of visiting Spain in 1989, staying in Malaga, on the Costa da Sol. Day trips took us to Cadiz, on the sea coast, and up into the mountains to Ronda. At La Linea we had an exciting experience when my husband was asked by border guards where he was from, thinking that they were asking his heritage, he said Mexican, Without skipping a heart beat they were ready to pull him off the bus, until I yelled he's an American citizen. The entire bus filled with laughter. Fond memories, brought back by you sharing your Great-Grandfather's story, not a lie, just his dream.
Pat Silva Corbera
I also have Rodrigues ancestors but from Portugal...
NathanJones wrote:
I should be ashamed to say so after the escandalo I made about misspellings. But I have no shame. No tengo verguenza. Nunca tuve.
Iâve been researching my maternal side for many years with little luck.
I now know why. My great grandfather Jose Estevan Rodriguez Montoya who died a few years before I was born told his many grandchildren he was born in the mid 1870s in Spain. He told them he came to Chihuahua during the gold rush of the late 19th century. He claimed Seville was his birthplace, and that he still had a brother living just outside the U.S. naval base at Cadiz.
So, for years I looked for a birth record for him in Spain. And for a record of his trans-Atlantic crossing.
Last year I found his actual birth record. He lied! He was born in Hidalgo del Parral in 1867. When I waved his birth document at the last Rodriguez family reunion every jaw in the room dropped!
They asked me why would he lie about his age. They assumed only women lied about their age.I suggested it was because he never wanted his wife to know how much older he was than her.
Today, the other shoe dropped. Not only wasnât he himself Spanish, neither was his father, grandfather, nor great grandfather! They were all born in Chihuahua. It was a complete fabrication. A family myth. One we accepted without question.
Grandpa Jose was snow-white, all his children were white con ojos de color, ditto his grandchildren, great grandchildren and so forth. So it was plausible that he was European.
I could not find the records before because Rodrigues had been mis-spelt Rodriges!
So the lesson is donât accept family lore on face value. Examine, corroborate, investigate, exploreâ¦
And things are not always what they appear to be. Grandpa looked rubio, guerro, blanco, gabacho, for all the world to see. But he was really mezclado, a mestizo, a typical Mexican. Un hijo de La Malinche. A son of Dona Marina.
And sometimes misspellings are just that!
Have a great 4th of July weekend.
A wonderful way to honor family members that served in WWII is to place their name at the WWII War Memorial in Washington D.C. The website address is http://www.wwiimemorial.com...
Pat
Jose Aguayo has probably been there before...sounds like it.
Joseph, perhaps things have now changed from the time I went. I hope my
research takes me to Spain next year also....I am always ready to travel.
I, too, don't speak Spanish but am interested in the trip. The last
time I was in my father's homeland I was in the womb. Didn't learn a
word of Spanish there. Please keep me on the list of those
interested in going. I will be joining you from either Wisconsin or
Arizona, depending on the time of year. This group is so exciting
and active I wish there was a branch close to me.
Linda
ROMERO Y-DNA Surname Group Co-Administrator
http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/r/romero/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/romero
romero89@earthlink.net
My sentiments exactly Linda! I to wish I was closer to a group, I live in
TN.
I'm still not sure when the trip is being planned for. Just in
case.................... just maybe!!
Hope
About the mistaken listings in the "Caribbean" -
Some years ago while researching the CABI & CADI (California Birth/Death Records) I kept finding very Spanish surnames of people supposedly born or dying in Maine, including one of my relatives that I knew had never left California. Then I realized that the old abbreviation for Mexico was ME, and when the records were switched over to a supposedly more modern system, all these Mexico-born Californians "became" residents of Maine!
Enrique Legaspi Frias' GEDCOM has been moved from the Files section into the GEDCOM database so it is now viewable and searchable directly from the site with no need to download it. The file includes hundreds of names from Nochistlan, Mexticacan, Teocaltiche, El Tuiche, Toyahua, La Estancia.
I consider other spellings as alternate spellings rather than mis spelllings.
It might be offensive to some people to say their ancestors mis spelled their own names.
For example, it was actually correct to spell Felipe with a "Ph" rather than an "F," before around 1700. That's why the archipelago off the coast of Asia is called the Philippines, but the people are called Filipinos in Spanish and English (and Pilipino in Tagalog, the language of the islands which has no F or Ph sound).
Back at the ranch......that is when we were at the yahoo's Rancho group we had a long discussion on this. I would like to revive those messages here. Please view from the archive:
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2003h2/msg00026.html
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/archives/2003h2/msg00027.html
Hope this helps those people new to the group...
Good luck on your search.
Angie Godina
One thing we also must remember is that our ancestors seldom even saw the records for births, marriages and deaths. They or someone with them gave the facts as they knew them to a someone at the church and I'm not sure that person is the same one who recorded the information. Babies were baptized without the mother in attendance so information about her family was many times incorrect. It was normal for the mother not to leave the home for 40 days.
As for my family, many of them could not read or write so correcting or changing information was not an alternative for them. Many times mothers died before the child married and the step-mother is the only one others knew about and that complicates things too. Many families moved to different states or cities and again, information was second hand or guessed at. As for early records giving the nationality of the child even that has to be considered as a guess based on the child or fathers skin color, Many records show different nationalities for the children of the same parents.. guess some were darker than others. I've found this to be true in records from Zacatecas, Michoacan and Jalisco going back to the 1650's at least.
I've also found that not all records are online in the IGI, some were not included and you have to read the actually film to see for yourself. I have also found errors made by the people who transcribed them for the IGI. I've found males listed as females, grandparents listed as parents and totally wrong surnames.. The records online are a wonderful starting place but you still have to put in the time to read them for yourself to be totally satisfied they are your family and correct... These are just some of the things I've found from 5 years of recording records.
Linda in Everett
erniealderete@charter.net wrote:
I consider other spellings as alternate spellings rather than mis spelllings.
It might be offensive to some people to say their ancestors mis spelled their own names.
For example, it was actually correct to spell Felipe with a "Ph" rather than an "F," before around 1700. That's why the archipelago off the coast of Asia is called the Philippines, but the people are called Filipinos in Spanish and English (and Pilipino in Tagalog, the language of the islands which has no F or Ph sound).
In reality there were many ways of spellings names until the Spanish language was standardized with the change of dynasties in Madrid, from the Hapsburgs who died out, and the Bourbons, who initiated widespread changes throughout the empire.
It was the Bourbons who brought about the metric system by scientific research in what is now Ecuador.
Gradually the old measurements, and coins such as the ocho reales, and two bits, were replaced by decimal based denominations such as the centavo and peso.
I am so eager and happy to learn about how our ancestors lived! All these
tidbits are so interesting plus it makes it easier to understand search
because I for one don't feel like I am fumbling in the dark.Most of this
information you are all sharing is 'new' to me!
Hope
Great point Linda, This point can never be said enough. The stuff online
is just the beginning or starting point. Everything absolutely
everything needs to be seen with your own eyes. Then once you've seen it
you need to give the references where others can go to find the
information.
thanks Linda, please continue saying this as new people come on board. I
appreciate the help in reminding people of this crucial point.
joseph
Erlinda Castanon-Long wrote:
>One thing we also must remember is that our ancestors seldom even saw the records for births, marriages and deaths. They or someone with them gave the facts as they knew them to a someone at the church and I'm not sure that person is the same one who recorded the information. Babies were baptized without the mother in attendance so information about her family was many times incorrect. It was normal for the mother not to leave the home for 40 days.
>
> As for my family, many of them could not read or write so correcting or changing information was not an alternative for them. Many times mothers died before the child married and the step-mother is the only one others knew about and that complicates things too. Many families moved to different states or cities and again, information was second hand or guessed at. As for early records giving the nationality of the child even that has to be considered as a guess based on the child or fathers skin color, Many records show different nationalities for the children of the same parents.. guess some were darker than others. I've found this to be true in records from Zacatecas, Michoacan and Jalisco going back to the 1650's at least.
> I've also found that not all records are online in the IGI, some were not included and you have to read the actually film to see for yourself. I have also found errors made by the people who transcribed them for the IGI. I've found males listed as females, grandparents listed as parents and totally wrong surnames.. The records online are a wonderful starting place but you still have to put in the time to read them for yourself to be totally satisfied they are your family and correct... These are just some of the things I've found from 5 years of recording records.
> Linda in Everett
>
>
>
>
thanks for the information, i have been searching for someone who may know
something about the viramontes name. thanks jovana viramontes
well the purpose of this group is to find common links and to help each
other in their research. At your first opportunty you need to go to your
closest Family History Center so you can order some of the films we've
been talking about.
do you know the specific Location in Zacatecas that your Viramontes come
from? If not how did you find out that they were from Zacatecas?
joseph
JvKomadi@aol.com wrote:
>thanks for the information, i have been searching for someone who may know
>something about the viramontes name. thanks jovana viramontes
I was told that my grandfather was from jalpa. his parents were born there
also and remained there until their passing. my father doesn't seem to know
much about his own family, or that's what he has lead me to be live. I am still
trying to reach my aunt carmen, I was told by my fathers wife that she knows
a lot more about were we came from along with names etc.. I feel my father is
keeping some info from me, why ? I am not sure . but I am going to keep
asking until I find the info I need. thanks jovana
Jovana,
While I have only reviewed one roll of film from Jalpa I found many many Viramontes in Jalpa. Once you order your first roll of film from the list I sent you yesterday you are on your way to discovering your family's history. Begin by ordering one roll of film from your local family history center for the year or years in which your grandparents were born and search every record on that roll.
When I began I did not know my father in-law's birth date, I just had an approximate year and I had his parents' names. I scrolled through my first couple of rolls entry by entry not really knowing what I was looking for. It was about 7 PM in the evening and I was about to leave Salt Lake City after researching for 3 days without anything substantial on my husband's side of the family when I found a birth record for my father-in-law's brother, born in 1904. How did I know this, because I had his parents names and the approximate date of birth. The birth record said.....En la ciudad de Nochistlan a los once de la mañana del dia 17 dies y siete de Enero de 1904 Comparecio el ciudadano Francisco Carrillo, casado, jornalero de 18 dies y ocho años de edad y vecino del Monte de Duranes. Presento un niño vivo, nacido en el mismo rancho a las dos de la mañana del dia 9 del presente mes que le da el nombre de Julian, hijo legitimo de del exponente y de su esposa Mariana Jauregui
de 16 diez y seis años de edad, Abuelos paternos, Marcial Carrillo y Juliana Gomez que viven y maternos, Francisco Jauregui y Antonia Olmos que viven. Fueron testigos de este acto los ciudadanos Yrineo Gomez y Agustin Ruiz casados y vecinos del mismo rancho.
This the first record I found for my husband's family gave me much information. It first tells me the name of the father, Francisco Carrillo, gives me his age when this child was born. I now know that this is an approximate age +/- 10 years as they usually did not know their exact age. Birth record says Francisco was 18 years of age, this was 1904 so his year of birth might be 1886? The birth record also gives me the name of the rancho where Francisco lived and the rancho where Julian was born (Monte de Duranes). This is very important because usually the extended families all stayed and lived in the same ranchos for generations. Next it tells the time of birth the child's name and he was a legitimate child. Next is his mother's name and approximate age of 16 years. Next are the grandparent's names. Paternos/paternal grandparents, Marcial Carrillo & Juliana Gomez who are living and maternal grandparents Francisco Jauregui y Antonia Olmos who are also still living. It then
gives the names of two witnesses who were also from the same rancho and in most cases are family.
So you see this one birth record provides me with much information that can and does lead me to order new films by deducing the ages of the parents I can order birth or baptismal records for the approximate years of birth for each of the parents. I know what ranchos they descend from, I know the names of the grandparents and it also provides me with the possible year of marriage of Francisco Carrillo and Mariana Jauregui. If they were 18 & 16 this was possibly their first child and could have married in or around 1903..........I think you will see the possibilities here and have a basis for your continued search.
I hope this helps in your search.
Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo
San Jose, Ca
Alicia, You are just one wonderful person. Don't be surprised if I make
you director of New Membership. You have a great way of explaining and
helping the new ones. I want to thank you for taking the time to share
your knowledge in helping those that need some guidance get started on
their search. One day many will be very thankful to you for getting
their start.
muchisimas,
joseph
Alicia Carrillo wrote:
>Jovana,
>
>While I have only reviewed one roll of film from Jalpa I found many many Viramontes in Jalpa. Once you order your first roll of film from the list I sent you yesterday you are on your way to discovering your family's history. Begin by ordering one roll of film from your local family history center for the year or years in which your grandparents were born and search every record on that roll.
>
>When I began I did not know my father in-law's birth date, I just had an approximate year and I had his parents' names. I scrolled through my first couple of rolls entry by entry not really knowing what I was looking for. It was about 7 PM in the evening and I was about to leave Salt Lake City after researching for 3 days without anything substantial on my husband's side of the family when I found a birth record for my father-in-law's brother, born in 1904. How did I know this, because I had his parents names and the approximate date of birth. The birth record said.....En la ciudad de Nochistlan a los once de la mañana del dia 17 dies y siete de Enero de 1904 Comparecio el ciudadano Francisco Carrillo, casado, jornalero de 18 dies y ocho años de edad y vecino del Monte de Duranes. Presento un niño vivo, nacido en el mismo rancho a las dos de la mañana del dia 9 del presente mes que le da el nombre de Julian, hijo legitimo de del exponente y de su esposa Mariana Jauregui
> de 16 diez y seis años de edad, Abuelos paternos, Marcial Carrillo y Juliana Gomez que viven y maternos, Francisco Jauregui y Antonia Olmos que viven. Fueron testigos de este acto los ciudadanos Yrineo Gomez y Agustin Ruiz casados y vecinos del mismo rancho.
>
>This the first record I found for my husband's family gave me much information. It first tells me the name of the father, Francisco Carrillo, gives me his age when this child was born. I now know that this is an approximate age +/- 10 years as they usually did not know their exact age. Birth record says Francisco was 18 years of age, this was 1904 so his year of birth might be 1886? The birth record also gives me the name of the rancho where Francisco lived and the rancho where Julian was born (Monte de Duranes). This is very important because usually the extended families all stayed and lived in the same ranchos for generations. Next it tells the time of birth the child's name and he was a legitimate child. Next is his mother's name and approximate age of 16 years. Next are the grandparent's names. Paternos/paternal grandparents, Marcial Carrillo & Juliana Gomez who are living and maternal grandparents Francisco Jauregui y Antonia Olmos who are also still living. It then
> gives the names of two witnesses who were also from the same rancho and in most cases are family.
>
>So you see this one birth record provides me with much information that can and does lead me to order new films by deducing the ages of the parents I can order birth or baptismal records for the approximate years of birth for each of the parents. I know what ranchos they descend from, I know the names of the grandparents and it also provides me with the possible year of marriage of Francisco Carrillo and Mariana Jauregui. If they were 18 & 16 this was possibly their first child and could have married in or around 1903..........I think you will see the possibilities here and have a basis for your continued search.
>
>I hope this helps in your search.
>
>Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo
>San Jose, Ca
>
>
This group is made up of many wonderful, helpful and caring individuals. I thank the Good Lord plus my heavenly ancestors for guiding me to NuestrosRanchos.
Thank You all!
Pat
Joseph Puentes wrote:
Alicia, You are just one wonderful person. Don't be surprised if I make
you director of New Membership. You have a great way of explaining and
helping the new ones. I want to thank you for taking the time to share
your knowledge in helping those that need some guidance get started on
their search. One day many will be very thankful to you for getting
their start.
muchisimas,
joseph
Alicia Carrillo wrote:
>Jovana,
>
>While I have only reviewed one roll of film from Jalpa I found many many Viramontes in Jalpa. Once you order your first roll of film from the list I sent you yesterday you are on your way to discovering your family's history. Begin by ordering one roll of film from your local family history center for the year or years in which your grandparents were born and search every record on that roll.
>
>When I began I did not know my father in-law's birth date, I just had an approximate year and I had his parents' names. I scrolled through my first couple of rolls entry by entry not really knowing what I was looking for. It was about 7 PM in the evening and I was about to leave Salt Lake City after researching for 3 days without anything substantial on my husband's side of the family when I found a birth record for my father-in-law's brother, born in 1904. How did I know this, because I had his parents names and the approximate date of birth. The birth record said.....En la ciudad de Nochistlan a los once de la mañana del dia 17 dies y siete de Enero de 1904 Comparecio el ciudadano Francisco Carrillo, casado, jornalero de 18 dies y ocho años de edad y vecino del Monte de Duranes. Presento un niño vivo, nacido en el mismo rancho a las dos de la mañana del dia 9 del presente mes que le da el nombre de Julian, hijo legitimo de del exponente y de su esposa Mariana Jauregui
> de 16 diez y seis años de edad, Abuelos paternos, Marcial Carrillo y Juliana Gomez que viven y maternos, Francisco Jauregui y Antonia Olmos que viven. Fueron testigos de este acto los ciudadanos Yrineo Gomez y Agustin Ruiz casados y vecinos del mismo rancho.
>
>This the first record I found for my husband's family gave me much information. It first tells me the name of the father, Francisco Carrillo, gives me his age when this child was born. I now know that this is an approximate age +/- 10 years as they usually did not know their exact age. Birth record says Francisco was 18 years of age, this was 1904 so his year of birth might be 1886? The birth record also gives me the name of the rancho where Francisco lived and the rancho where Julian was born (Monte de Duranes). This is very important because usually the extended families all stayed and lived in the same ranchos for generations. Next it tells the time of birth the child's name and he was a legitimate child. Next is his mother's name and approximate age of 16 years. Next are the grandparent's names. Paternos/paternal grandparents, Marcial Carrillo & Juliana Gomez who are living and maternal grandparents Francisco Jauregui y Antonia Olmos who are also still living. It then
> gives the names of two witnesses who were also from the same rancho and in most cases are family.
>
>So you see this one birth record provides me with much information that can and does lead me to order new films by deducing the ages of the parents I can order birth or baptismal records for the approximate years of birth for each of the parents. I know what ranchos they descend from, I know the names of the grandparents and it also provides me with the possible year of marriage of Francisco Carrillo and Mariana Jauregui. If they were 18 & 16 this was possibly their first child and could have married in or around 1903..........I think you will see the possibilities here and have a basis for your continued search.
>
>I hope this helps in your search.
>
>Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo
>San Jose, Ca
>
>
I second that Pat. I just joined night before last and
it has been wonderful.
Yolanda
Joseph, I second the motion in all you wrote about Alicia.
I bet she will also make a good tour guide to Zacatecas.
Your long lost Prima....Helyn
Joseph Puentes wrote:
Alicia, You are just one wonderful person. Don't be surprised if I make
you director of New Membership. You have a great way of explaining and
helping the new ones. I want to thank you for taking the time to share
your knowledge in helping those that need some guidance get started on
their search. One day many will be very thankful to you for getting
their start.
muchisimas,
joseph
Alicia Carrillo wrote:
>Jovana,
>
>While I have only reviewed one roll of film from Jalpa I found many many Viramontes in Jalpa. Once you order your first roll of film from the list I sent you yesterday you are on your way to discovering your family's history. Begin by ordering one roll of film from your local family history center for the year or years in which your grandparents were born and search every record on that roll.
>
>When I began I did not know my father in-law's birth date, I just had an approximate year and I had his parents' names. I scrolled through my first couple of rolls entry by entry not really knowing what I was looking for. It was about 7 PM in the evening and I was about to leave Salt Lake City after researching for 3 days without anything substantial on my husband's side of the family when I found a birth record for my father-in-law's brother, born in 1904. How did I know this, because I had his parents names and the approximate date of birth. The birth record said.....En la ciudad de Nochistlan a los once de la mañana del dia 17 dies y siete de Enero de 1904 Comparecio el ciudadano Francisco Carrillo, casado, jornalero de 18 dies y ocho años de edad y vecino del Monte de Duranes. Presento un niño vivo, nacido en el mismo rancho a las dos de la mañana del dia 9 del presente mes que le da el nombre de Julian, hijo legitimo de del exponente y de su esposa Mariana Jauregui
> de 16 diez y seis años de edad, Abuelos paternos, Marcial Carrillo y Juliana Gomez que viven y maternos, Francisco Jauregui y Antonia Olmos que viven. Fueron testigos de este acto los ciudadanos Yrineo Gomez y Agustin Ruiz casados y vecinos del mismo rancho.
>
>This the first record I found for my husband's family gave me much information. It first tells me the name of the father, Francisco Carrillo, gives me his age when this child was born. I now know that this is an approximate age +/- 10 years as they usually did not know their exact age. Birth record says Francisco was 18 years of age, this was 1904 so his year of birth might be 1886? The birth record also gives me the name of the rancho where Francisco lived and the rancho where Julian was born (Monte de Duranes). This is very important because usually the extended families all stayed and lived in the same ranchos for generations. Next it tells the time of birth the child's name and he was a legitimate child. Next is his mother's name and approximate age of 16 years. Next are the grandparent's names. Paternos/paternal grandparents, Marcial Carrillo & Juliana Gomez who are living and maternal grandparents Francisco Jauregui y Antonia Olmos who are also still living. It then
> gives the names of two witnesses who were also from the same rancho and in most cases are family.
>
>So you see this one birth record provides me with much information that can and does lead me to order new films by deducing the ages of the parents I can order birth or baptismal records for the approximate years of birth for each of the parents. I know what ranchos they descend from, I know the names of the grandparents and it also provides me with the possible year of marriage of Francisco Carrillo and Mariana Jauregui. If they were 18 & 16 this was possibly their first child and could have married in or around 1903..........I think you will see the possibilities here and have a basis for your continued search.
>
>I hope this helps in your search.
>
>Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo
>San Jose, Ca
>
>
That goes for me too! Alecia is wonderful and so giving of her time and
knowledge.
I also one day hope to go to Zacatecas with some of the group. Even though
my Spanish would probably embarrass everyone.;-) I still have that inner
hunger to walk where my ancestors walked!
Hope
I'm still thinking I'd like to go too, but would I handicap anyone by not speaking Spanish? I think I'd probably be asking and asking, "what did he say?"....and taking away from the trip. However, I've always wanted to go to Zacatecas to see where my family came from....I just didn't think it would happen. Keep us informed with the details!
Peggy Delgado
beelieve wrote:
That goes for me too! Alecia is wonderful and so giving of her time and
knowledge.
I also one day hope to go to Zacatecas with some of the group. Even though
my Spanish would probably embarrass everyone.;-) I still have that inner
hunger to walk where my ancestors walked!
Hope
You can sit/stand/and ask questions with me, I don't speak, write or understand Spanish, but that's not going to stop me from going. ;-)) . Pat
Peggy Delgado wrote: I'm still thinking I'd like to go too, but would I handicap anyone by not speaking Spanish? I think I'd probably be asking and asking, "what did he say?"....and taking away from the trip. However, I've always wanted to go to Zacatecas to see where my family came from....I just didn't think it would happen. Keep us informed with the details!
Peggy Delgado
beelieve wrote:
That goes for me too! Alecia is wonderful and so giving of her time and
knowledge.
I also one day hope to go to Zacatecas with some of the group. Even though
my Spanish would probably embarrass everyone.;-) I still have that inner
hunger to walk where my ancestors walked!
Hope
Pat, Peggy and anyone else that is even remotely considering the trip, listen up. The purpose of this trip is so that those people who would not otherwise visit their ancestral towns will have an opportunity to do so.
It is not required that you speak the spanish language, it is a requirement that you pay for your trip, lodging, meals and expenses and contribute towards the bus or tour transportation including tips and a tour guide if necessary. We are very early into the planning process and if you indeed are interested as the time draws near we will see how many people are still serious about the trip. At the time it is decided who is going we will ask for some input as to the specific towns we may all want to visit that are within our research areas and we might even consider some special area of interest even if it is not for research but for play and relaxation.
Hope this helps,
Alicia
You can sit/stand/and ask questions with me, I don't speak, write or understand Spanish, but that's not going to stop me from going. ;-)) . Pat
Peggy Delgado wrote: I'm still thinking I'd like to go too, but would I handicap anyone by not speaking Spanish? I think I'd probably be asking and asking, "what did he say?"....and taking away from the trip. However, I've always wanted to go to Zacatecas to see where my family came from....I just didn't think it would happen. Keep us informed with the details!
Peggy Delgado
Hi Alicia!
Yes, that helps, thanks!
Alicia Carrillo wrote:
Pat, Peggy and anyone else that is even remotely considering the trip, listen up. The purpose of this trip is so that those people who would not otherwise visit their ancestral towns will have an opportunity to do so.
It is not required that you speak the spanish language, it is a requirement that you pay for your trip, lodging, meals and expenses and contribute towards the bus or tour transportation including tips and a tour guide if necessary. We are very early into the planning process and if you indeed are interested as the time draws near we will see how many people are still serious about the trip. At the time it is decided who is going we will ask for some input as to the specific towns we may all want to visit that are within our research areas and we might even consider some special area of interest even if it is not for research but for play and relaxation.
Hope this helps,
Alicia
You can sit/stand/and ask questions with me, I don't speak, write or understand Spanish, but that's not going to stop me from going. ;-)) . Pat
Peggy Delgado wrote: I'm still thinking I'd like to go too, but would I handicap anyone by not speaking Spanish? I think I'd probably be asking and asking, "what did he say?"....and taking away from the trip. However, I've always wanted to go to Zacatecas to see where my family came from....I just didn't think it would happen. Keep us informed with the details!
Peggy Delgado
I wouls REALLY like to go.................... what time frame are we
thinking about for this trip?
Just maybe.........................!!!??
Hope
Hope,
We don't know yet when in 2007 we will be going. I have had input from a few people as to when they can go and you can do the same. The best times in my opinion as well as Arturo's is that the spring, March/April and September/October are best. I personally prefer the fall, the rains have just finished and it is a sight to behold, wildflowers as far as the eye can see in the countryside but some people can only go during the summer months.
After our Northern California meeting on July 29th we will have a better idea on the time frame and logistics.
I look forward to meeting my Ranchos family.
Alicia Carrillo
San Jose, Ca
I wouls REALLY like to go.................... what time frame are we
thinking about for this trip?
Just maybe.........................!!!??
Hope
Peggy, You would certainly NOT be a handicap. I for one, would be happy to translate for you. I can translate simultaneously from Spanish to English, but not proficient the other way around.
One of the ladies in the group, who is considering the journey to Zacatecas, does not speak Spanish...so, there is always room for one more. Bet you will return with a new vocabulary.
Saludos, Helyn
Peggy Delgado wrote:
I'm still thinking I'd like to go too, but would I handicap anyone by not speaking Spanish? I think I'd probably be asking and asking, "what did he say?"....and taking away from the trip. However, I've always wanted to go to Zacatecas to see where my family came from....I just didn't think it would happen. Keep us informed with the details!
Peggy Delgado
beelieve wrote:
That goes for me too! Alecia is wonderful and so giving of her time and
knowledge.
I also one day hope to go to Zacatecas with some of the group. Even though
my Spanish would probably embarrass everyone.;-) I still have that inner
hunger to walk where my ancestors walked!
Hope
Helyn! Yes, I hope to pick up some of the language myself. I had high school Spanish and understand a little from my first husband and his family, but other than that, I will need help.
Thanks for the offer....hopefully as the trip draws near, I'll be able to go, depending on when it is....
Peggy
Santos Luna wrote:
Peggy, You would certainly NOT be a handicap. I for one, would be happy to translate for you. I can translate simultaneously from Spanish to English, but not proficient the other way around.
One of the ladies in the group, who is considering the journey to Zacatecas, does not speak Spanish...so, there is always room for one more. Bet you will return with a new vocabulary.
Saludos, Helyn
Peggy Delgado wrote:
I'm still thinking I'd like to go too, but would I handicap anyone by not speaking Spanish? I think I'd probably be asking and asking, "what did he say?"....and taking away from the trip. However, I've always wanted to go to Zacatecas to see where my family came from....I just didn't think it would happen. Keep us informed with the details!
Peggy Delgado
beelieve wrote:
That goes for me too! Alecia is wonderful and so giving of her time and
knowledge.
I also one day hope to go to Zacatecas with some of the group. Even though
my Spanish would probably embarrass everyone.;-) I still have that inner
hunger to walk where my ancestors walked!
Hope
Helyn, Joseph and everyone,
I feel that most everyone in this group has been very giving of their time, talent and knowledge. It is because of the many that I have received much from this group. I could go on and on about the virtues of each person. Isn't that why we belong to this cyber group of family research? To learn and also to share what we learn, to share our techniques and strategies, especially with those who are new to genealogy.
Some people share their technical know-how which I benefit from, some share their PAF expertise of which I have also been the recipient, historical research strategies in Salt Lake and at local family history centers. Their command of the spanish language, maps, etc etc.
Joseph and Arturo, our thanks to you for making this group what it is today.
Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo
San Jose, Ca
Alicia and fellow Ranchos,
What I'm finding to be very difficult for me, is that even though reference is being made to Momax (as an example) as being the ancestral "area." Vital records for that area may be located in at least three different parishes, if not more. Reference to Ranchos de Los Pintos, hasn't help to establish what films should be ordered.
I did locate FHC listing for Guadalupe, Zacatecas, so I'll check out some of those films to see if Guadalupe de Juanacatis is located there.
Pat
Alicia Carrillo wrote:
Helyn, Joseph and everyone,
I feel that most everyone in this group has been very giving of their time, talent and knowledge. It is because of the many that I have received much from this group. I could go on and on about the virtues of each person. Isn't that why we belong to this cyber group of family research? To learn and also to share what we learn, to share our techniques and strategies, especially with those who are new to genealogy.
Some people share their technical know-how which I benefit from, some share their PAF expertise of which I have also been the recipient, historical research strategies in Salt Lake and at local family history centers. Their command of the spanish language, maps, etc etc.
Joseph and Arturo, our thanks to you for making this group what it is today.
Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo
San Jose, Ca
Alicia and fellow Ranchos,
What I'm finding to be very difficult for me, is that even though reference is being made to Momax (as an example) as being the ancestral "area." Vital records for that area may be located in at least three different parishes, if not more. Reference to Ranchos de Los Pintos, hasn't help to establish what films should be ordered.
Patricia, in that link that Arturo sent out today for diccionario biografico click on it and go to the letter J. You will find Juanacatic, del partido de Villanueva Zacatecas. It also references rancho de Guadalupe and partido de Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman. This in all likelihood is what you are searching for as it is closer to Momax.
This Guadalupe Zacatecas is very close to Zacatecas, Zacatecas and is probably not the one your are searching for. It is quite a distance from Momax
I did locate FHC listing for Guadalupe, Zacatecas, so I'll check out some of those films to see if Guadalupe de Juanacatis is located there.
Pat
Let us know if this is worked out for you.
Alicia
Due to short term memory loss, I can not recall the name of the file/link that was posted with the names/locations of the various ranchos/pueblos. Do believe this may be a good resource for Pat in finding some of the locations in her area of research.
Thanks, Helyn
Patricia Corbera wrote:
Alicia and fellow Ranchos,
What I'm finding to be very difficult for me, is that even though reference is being made to Momax (as an example) as being the ancestral "area." Vital records for that area may be located in at least three different parishes, if not more. Reference to Ranchos de Los Pintos, hasn't help to establish what films should be ordered.
I did locate FHC listing for Guadalupe, Zacatecas, so I'll check out some of those films to see if Guadalupe de Juanacatis is located there.
Pat
Alicia Carrillo wrote:
Helyn, Joseph and everyone,
I feel that most everyone in this group has been very giving of their time, talent and knowledge. It is because of the many that I have received much from this group. I could go on and on about the virtues of each person. Isn't that why we belong to this cyber group of family research? To learn and also to share what we learn, to share our techniques and strategies, especially with those who are new to genealogy.
Some people share their technical know-how which I benefit from, some share their PAF expertise of which I have also been the recipient, historical research strategies in Salt Lake and at local family history centers. Their command of the spanish language, maps, etc etc.
Joseph and Arturo, our thanks to you for making this group what it is today.
Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo
San Jose, Ca
Dear Helyn, Alicia, Maria, Linda and all Ranchos,
Once again, my sincere appreciation for your kindness and helpfulness. I tried to access the Diccionario Geográfico, Histórico y Biográfico de los Estados Unidos Mexicanos website, but only saw the letter A. I think the index/indice is not appearing because I don't have Java-Script software installed on my computer. I was able to figure out the website address to get to the letter J, but it wouldn't let me access any of the listings. I'll search the Internet for a Java download.
Thank you,
Pat.
Santos Luna wrote:
Due to short term memory loss, I can not recall the name of the file/link that was posted with the names/locations of the various ranchos/pueblos. Do believe this may be a good resource for Pat in finding some of the locations in her area of research.
Thanks, Helyn
Patricia Corbera
wrote:
Alicia and fellow Ranchos,
What I'm finding to be very difficult for me, is that even though reference is being made to Momax (as an example) as being the ancestral "area." Vital records for that area may be located in at least three different parishes, if not more. Reference to Ranchos de Los Pintos, hasn't help to establish what films should be ordered.
I did locate FHC listing for Guadalupe, Zacatecas, so I'll check out some of those films to see if Guadalupe de Juanacatis is located there.
Pat
Alicia Carrillo wrote:
Helyn, Joseph and everyone,
I feel that most everyone in this group has been very giving of their time, talent and knowledge. It is because of the many that I have received much from this group. I could go on and on about the virtues of each person. Isn't that why we belong to this cyber group of family research? To learn and also to share what we learn, to share our techniques and strategies, especially with those who are new to genealogy.
Some people share their technical know-how which I benefit from, some share their PAF expertise of which I have also been the recipient, historical research strategies in Salt Lake and at local family history centers. Their command of the spanish language, maps, etc etc.
Joseph and Arturo, our thanks to you for making this group what it is today.
Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo
San Jose, Ca
Yoli,
I found your great grandparents marriage record today at my local family history center as this film is on permanent loan. LDS Film # 0226733. They were married 3 May 1871. Rosalio Jauregui, soltero de veinte un años, 21 years of age, originario y vecino de La Estancia, meaning Rosalio was from La Estancia, legitimate son of Salvador Jauregui who was living and Carina or Corina Vidaurre who was deceased. Pomposa Gonzales, celibate 16 years of age, also from La Estancia, legitimate daughter of Nicomedes Gonzales & Anastacia Saldivar both of whom were still living. Their padrinos were Leon Vidaurre and Francisca Jauregui. Witnesses were Antonio Ballin & Sixto Duran.
The IGI also has records of your GGrandparent's marriage which lists their parents so you can get your GGGrandparents' names:
SALVADOR DE JAUREGUI
Parents:
Father: TEODORO JAUREGUI
Mother: ROMALDA SANDOVAL
Marriages:
Spouse: CATALINA VIDAURRE
Marriage: 30 MAY 1838 Nochistlan, Zacatecas, Mexico
Husband Age at Marriage: 19
Wife Age at Marriage: 16
CATALINA VIDAURRE
Parents:
Father: RAFAEL VIDAURRE
Mother: GABRIELA LOSANO
Source Information:
Batch No.: M606261 Film No. 0226730
NICOMEDES GONZALES
Parents:
Father: TIBURCIO GONZALES
Mother: LUISA CASILLAS
Marriages:
Spouse: MARIA ANASTACIA SALDIVAR Family
Marriage: 12 FEB 1852 Nochistlan, Zacatecas, Mexico
MARIA ANASTACIA SALDIVAR
Parents:
Father: GERVASIO SALDIVAR
Mother: BARBARA MEXIA
Source Information:
Batch No.: M606262 Film: 0226731
Thank You so much. I didn't have any of that
information. This was great information.
Again Thanks
If you haven't done so already you need to go back in and properly fill
out your profile. Give the details that the profile asks for. As an
example if the profile asks for your "Area of Research Interest" don't
Por alguna razón no puedo entrar a mi cuenta. Cuando pongo mi password me lo
pone como no válido. No se si me lo puedes reenviar o qué tengo que hacer.
Mi username es anapena
Ana Irene Peña
If you haven't done so already you need to go back in and properly fill
out your profile. Give the details that the profile asks for. As an
example if the profile asks for your "Area of Research Interest" don't
If you haven't done so already you need to go back in and properly fill
out your profile. Give the details that the profile asks for. As an
example if the profile asks for your "Area of Research Interest" don't
There have been many new podcasts made available to the
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com podcast project. A great collection of
Oral History stories by Frank Moreno Sifuentes including his translation
Does anyone know of a sourcebook that lists the names of towns, provinces, etc. established by the Spaniards after the conquest of Mexico and during the early colonial period. Presently, I am especially looking for the location of the Province of Purificacion. Was this an early name for Guadalajara or was it near Guadalajara or was Guadalajara in it?
Jose Aguayo Ortega
yes i am having a little trouble posting , and i will be more careful. i
just need some time to figure out this site. i will be calling my aunt carmen to
try and get some information about my family. i have sent for my spouses
Jose:
I saw the posting of your genealogy and I think you and I are probably related. I see you gave Del Real, Gonzalez and Mayorga all in your maternal ancestry going back to Atolinga. You list as your oldest maternal ancestors as:
Hola Arturo:
Your message is very intriguing! On my mother's grandfather's baptismal
record from Atolingo in Tlaltenango Parish, his paternal grandfather's name
is spelled Salbador. We all know about the typical errors in spelling of
names on such documents, so it is likely we are talking about the same
individual. On the same document, his wife's surname appears to be spelled
Vayorga. It is possible that the V is an M and, of course, the y is
interchangeable with Spanish ll. I look forward to much future
communication with you to compare our research.
Jose Aguayo
One of the things that one learns as one reads more and more records is that names were not as static historically as they are today. People would change names over time, adding or dropping a Jose or Maria from the front of their names, switching between their maternal and paternal surnames, etc.
Given those drastic changes, a spelling variation is nothing! You also have to remember that most people were illiterate and therefore only knew the way their names were pronounced and the priests would write them down as they heard them. Spanish language spelling was not as standardized as it is today so obviously Salvador becomes Salbador very easily given that "v" and "b" are pronounced exactly the same in Spanish.
There seems to be a pattern of switching Ms and Vs as well. I don't know if it is an issue of the letters looking alike when they are written or a pronounciation similarity issue. It is possible that regional pronunciation mixed these two sounds with one another...
I would suggest you order Film 0445085 and find out who these people's parents were from their marriage record.
My genealogy is all online at:
http://www.ramosfamily.org/nextgen
=====================
From: Jose Aguayo
Date: Tue Jun 27 10:32:48 CDT 2006
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Jose Aguayo Ortega's Ancestors
Hola Arturo:
Your message is very intriguing! On my mother's grandfather's baptismal record from Atolingo in Tlaltenango Parish, his paternal grandfather's name is spelled Salbador. We all know about the typical errors in spelling of names on such documents, so it is likely we are talking about the same individual. On the same document, his wife's surname appears to be spelled Vayorga. It is possible that the V is an M and, of course, the y is interchangeable with Spanish ll. I look forward to much future
communication with you to compare our research.
Jose Aguayo
Our Ancestors are always challenging us to find them. I have one ancestress whose names was Maria Aquilina Muñoz. I have found her name spelled with so many variations. Aquilina, Quilina, Tranquilina, Franquilina, Quirina, Querina, Aquina. She and her husband Guadalupe Olmos, Sigala had 12 children and with the birth of each child, her name would change slightly, and continued on into the birth of her grandchildren. In the beginning it was a challenge to figure out she was one and the same person but when I got to her grandchildren it all clicked that it was the same person with many, many spelling variations.
Alicia,
San Jose, Ca
Jose:
One of the things that one learns as one reads more and more records is that names were not as static historically as they are today. People would change names over time, adding or dropping a Jose or Maria from the front of their names, switching between their maternal and paternal surnames, etc.
Given those drastic changes, a spelling variation is nothing! You also have to remember that most people were illiterate and therefore only knew the way their names were pronounced and the priests would write them down as they heard them. Spanish language spelling was not as standardized as it is today so obviously Salvador becomes Salbador very easily given that "v" and "b" are pronounced exactly the same in Spanish.
You make a great deal of excellent points.
I've seen all the errors you've enumerated.
I heard the National Arcives in Washington D.C. were flooded today:(
Yes there has been torrential rain here in DC for over a week now and several government buildings have flooded and had to shut down. I am sure that the documents at the Archives are fine. It is just that with water flowing into buildings with marble floors it can be very dangerous so they would not want to have people walking around there...
``The National Archives' Washington building also remained closed Tuesday, and an early-afternoon statement said it would stay that way at least through Wednesday. The archives reported no damage to original records at the rotunda and stack areas.''
Well it wasn't meant to be for me to search that El Paso film. Against
the odds I got the Monday off and will be in DC from Saturday evening
the 1st through the 4th. I had planned on hitting that film hard on the
2nd but with the rains I won't be able to. Another thing is that
Suzanne Harris wrote me and said that the film we've been talking about
from El Paso for the 1904-1924 period might be a positive negative and
not a negative negative and if that was the case it wouldn't be
available to researchers. She was going to get back to me on that but
then the floods came and I haven't heard from her.
Oh well. . .my Great Grandmother and Grandparents will have to wait a
little longer for me to find them (I've found their Baptism records but
not their border crossing records).
I hope the parade on the 4th doesn't get rained out
joseph
arturoramos wrote:
>Yes there has been torrential rain here in DC for over a week now and several government buildings have flooded and had to shut down. I am sure that the documents at the Archives are fine. It is just that with water flowing into buildings with marble floors it can be very dangerous so they would not want to have people walking around there...
>
>``The National Archives' Washington building also remained closed Tuesday, and an early-afternoon statement said it would stay that way at least through Wednesday. The archives reported no damage to original records at the rotunda and stack areas.''
>
>
my grandfather was born in jalpa. from what i was told he had a brother named ramerio viramontes. i am not sure if he was older or younger. thanks for the info on the name change i will send for a co
I am having a little trouble posting messages, I am pretty good with computers i just need to get use to this site. I am going to call my aunt carmen today to see if she can provide me with more information on my family, yes i do know how to get records via mail, i have already sent for my spouses ggrandparent SSN. there are from Serbia, my children have a colorful mix of heritage this is why i am researching, to pass it along to them one day.researching the viramontes side has been a little more difficult, i just want to be sure i get it right. i will be more careful when posting messages sorry. jovana
Yolanda:
Welcome to the group. It seems that you have ancestor information that goes back far enough where the resources we have available through this site and LDS will be useful. I am posting this on the research list as this is really a research-related question.
Ruano is a name that is tipically found in Nochistlan and La Estancia, Rauno is a mispelling. In Los Angeles, there is alot of Ruano's. Good luck!
arturoramos wrote:
Yolanda:
Welcome to the group. It seems that you have ancestor information that goes back far enough where the resources we have available through this site and LDS will be useful. I am posting this on the research list as this is really a research-related question.
One good thing to do is to figure out what modern day municipality the "rancho" or hacienda that you are researching is in. This is necessary because records are organized this way in the LDS catalog and on this site. For example Estancia is in modern day Nochistlan, Zacatecas.
A quick search in on familysearch.com comes up with the following, which I believe is your great-grandfather. It looks like these names match your granparents. You should order the film to see who their parents were.
ROSALIO JAUREGUI
Marriages:
Spouse: PONPOSA GONZALES Family
Marriage: 03 MAY 1871 Nochistlan, Zacatecas, Mexico
Batch: M606264 Film: 0226733
If so, these would be your grandfather's siblings:
1. JOSE MARTINIANO JAUREGUI GONZALES
Gender: Male Christening: 05 JAN 1873 Nochistlan, Zacatecas, Mexico
2. JOSE SIMON JAURIGUI GONSALES
Gender: Male Christening: 01 MAR 1874 Nochistlan, Zacatecas, Mexico
As far as yout other set of grandparents, the last name RAUNO does not seem to come up in the LDS databases. Are you sure you have this name correct? There are a number of Maria Ulloas married in the late 1800s in Nochistlan but none of them to anyone by a name similar to RAUNO.
Emilie's Back in Business