Hello, could someone tell me where "La Joya" is located? I believe I found a document from a relative that states he is from La Joya, Mexico.
A quick search on the internet shows a town of that name within Magdalena Jalisco, there is also one in Morelos.
Now I need some help with Información matrimonial. I found a record in FamilySearch for Placido Xavier and Maria Antonia Bernardina De Los Reyes with a marriage date of 4 May 1757 in El Sagragrio.
I think you are confusing the "Informacion Matrimonial" books with the "Matrimonios" ones, the information books are rarely index (except when they are mixed with the marriage records) thus the information on them do not appear when searching for individuals, when you find a marriage record on the index (on the search results) is going to be on the "Matrimonios" books. Now from there you can always find the information concerning the marriage that as Ricci mentioned is always days before, (in my experience usually a month, more or less).
As I mentioned before, remember to compare the film numbers, for you to know that you are in the right book/film. for the one in question, check Matrimonios 1750-1769 page 358. reading the record would tell you the actual dates for the pre-marriage information if you desire to check on it. (some times this don't exist anymore) which for for this case it says "siete, veinte y cuatro de Abril also primero de Mayo". Likely you will find it on the last date mentioned.
You are absolutely right. I was confusing the 2 books. I have been doing this for years, but only recently realized that I could look at the actual records, which has been excellent because there is a lot of information there that doesn't show up in the search indexes. This record, for example, give parents' names which I haven't been able to find anywhere else.
And this also explains why I found the Informacion books so confusing!
Thanks to everyone for your help.
As a side note, I recommend to always check the "informacion matrimonial" (if available) for each marriage record that you are researching, this is because the information records usually have a better information for all the parties, including names and residence. The workflow is usually like this; Find a individual's marriage on the index, search the actual records, then the record would tell you the dates of when the information for that specific marriage was gathered. finally you can search with those dates in the "information records". both (the marriage and the marriage information records) would give most of the time a much better set of data than the marriage itself.
The Información matrimonial record is not always near the date of the marriage. I have found these records to sometimes be two to three months from the date of the marriage.
RARicci.
I imagine later? Thank you for your help. I haven't found an actual marriage record yet, but I may spend the day looking for this one.
Very helpful thanks!!
From: "research-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.org"
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 3:08
My 7th Generation Great Grandparents are:
Antonio Madera (1660 - 1709) and Maria De La Candelaria Angon (1655 - 1735)
First pic is the defunto of Maria De La Candelaria Angon (year 1735):
first I what to say Iam new to the group and I want to say thank you for inviting me to be part of something special.
I looked at the FamilySearch card catalog, https://familysearch.org/catalog-search, and there appears to be a gap for births, marriages, and deaths in this period.
George Fulton
Pleasanton, CA
thanks for the repley
And, as usual, I forgot to include the link to my folder.
While we've made good progress in other lines, we continue to get stuck with the line through Purisima del Rincon.
By comparison with other records of the book, it seems to indicate the name of the place where they were born, not ethnicity. The casta seems to appear in the text between the name and place of birth, and for Atanasio I think it says E, which would be Español. The abbreviation you mentioned seems to be followed by "la P", and may refer to la Purísima.
Regards,
VN
The one thing that makes me think it's not a location is that when the same abbreviation is used on later pages, the superscript seems to alternate between an O on a male entry and an A on a female entry. Most of the time it is preceded by that E.
The abbreviation may just be stating that he was from that town because I found marriage documents for the same individual that use the written word "yvencino" before the location (and "yvencina" for the females). Well, it didn't hold any additional clues, but the mystery may be solved. I thought I should pass it along in case anyone else is working with the Purisima del Rincon records.
Now if only the Purisima records gave abuelos, I could keep following that line back...
I refer to these from time to time when I don't quite get the words. Hope it helps you and anyone else.
https://script.byu.edu/Pages/Spanish/es/givennameabbr.aspx
https://script.byu.edu/Pages/Spanish/es/abbrAtoE.aspx
https://script.byu.edu/Pages/Spanish/es/surnameabbr.aspx
They have proved very valuable to me.
I received the following newsletter from FTDNA:
DNA Day 2015 is here! Every year students, teachers, and the public take this day to learn more about genetics and genomics!
I have not had success in finding baptism certificates in El Sagrario for
the years 1807-1812.
Daniel, some of the dates in that book are mix, if you go a bit further you will see the months of may and june over again for the year of 1808, look at the page 139 of the film, not the book page which is 128. For the second record look at the page 380, (203 of the book). Sometimes this entries are out of order because the baptisms were performed somewhere else, by the time they copied the entries in the main book some other baptisms had taken place. Some times is just the pages out of order, I also get really frustrated when this happens, but you get use to.
As a side note, when in doubt for a film number, look at the results from a general search, click on the individual name and they show the batch and film number, copy the number and look at it in the catalog. it will show the whole collection, there you can check if there is just one set of years for that specific film or if there is something wrong with the index. In this case the film number also appears in the first page helping you know that you are looking the correct book.
Thank you. That is exactly what I needed to know. I was sure they existed somewhere! And I just came up with another one in the same book.
Your explanation makes total sense because they were probably performed in Jesus Maria.
I am glad it helped, and it would likely happen again, that you may find something out of chronological order, but we usually get there, just take your time.
Thank you again. I did find another one and it was the same thing.
Does anyone know of any archives that contains information of Correo Maritomo?
Born in Zapotlan el Grande 1747 to parents Juan Jose Dias and Gertrudis Reyes
umm you posted this twice, and maybe this ancestor of yours was a 'natural' child or his dad didn't exactly have a last name.
edit: i also found this, not sure if the bride and groom are the said person's parents but i'll share the link anways
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JCF2-9RY
Born in Zapotlan el Grande 1747 to parents Juan Jose Dias and Gertrudis Marquez.
Looking to see if there is a George E. Mayorga in the Nuestros Ranchos group
(Already checked so I think not).
Or does anyone know either of a living George E.
I found the baptismal record for Jose Susano in Bautiismos de Castas
1807-1812, Image #139, entry 63. This is in the Aguascalientes film
record of course.
Just a reminder that the SoCal chapter of the Nueva Galicia Genealogical Society will be holding a meeting this Saturday, April 25th in Orange, California from 11 am until 2 pm.
I am looking at this video about the legend of giants in Tala, Jalisco, Mexico:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHHoib4KuVU
Says they were called "chinametin" and were 35 feet tall.
I did a search "Gigantes" in the PARS website:
http://www.archivesportaleurope.net/web/guest
And a list came up. I filtered it to Archivo de Indias and several came up.
On this particular one reference number: PATRONATO,177,N.1,R.4
Year 1520: "Declaración del licenciado Rodrigo de Figueroa, juez de residencia, sobre que todas la islas que no estaban pobladas de cristianos eran de indios bárbaros caribes, excepto las de la Trinidad, Lucayos, Barbados, Gigantes y Margarita."
And it has documents to read.
http://oi60.tinypic.com/wmf6z5.jpg
Never knew about this folklore from Tala, I guess Antonio Tello and the Native folks he interview where also discovering the wonders of Peyote and Marihuana :). Joke aside, some true can be rescued from this fantastic tales of lore, for example we know that there where several waves of natives, some who came at later times and took over the ones already established there, many times by force, like the Aztecs and some groups of the Cazcanes, thus the reocupation is understandable. I like to believe that there was also a motive for "the Giants" to appear in the stories. Jalisco (and many other parts of Mexico and the America continent) is also known to have Mammoth fossils, my Dad used to have some tooth that looked as if they belong to this animals about 2.5 inches per side, he found them while working on the fields, but they fell apart with the years. I'm pretty sure Natives encounter this types of fossils, it wouldn't surprise me if thats one of the reasons why they made up the Giants stories. Is also known that the Spanish "enhanced" many stories and accounts from the Natives as to promote explorations and most important capital investment.
He he he...thank you for your comment RJQ. But even when the indios have tales of a race of Giants? The Capitanes of all those Ships that crossed the Atlantic also have their tales of Giant Sea Monsters in the Sea and also they include them on their maps.
Well, many cultures have some sort of Giants or Monsters, and what else not, in Europe they are also artistic depictions to "spice up" documents, paintings, architecture, etc. For the most part regular folks where the only ones who believed it. There is also "sirenas", giant snakes or dragons, etc. among Sailors. The exploration of America and Asia gave, no doubt, lots of inspiration to this kind of folk tales, specially seeing such a variety of Animals and Plants. Darwing's theory was also inspired by this lands biodiversity. There is a Edgar A. Poe tale called "The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket" that nicely depict some of the ideas that born out the early explorations but that where sill alive in the 1800's.
I have not had success in finding baptism certificates in El Sagrario for the years 1807-1812.
Piggy-backing on the conversation about who's Latino, I was wondering what people mark for race on census and other forms.
Over the years I have been labeled white, Chicano Mexican/American Latino.
There is one label that I don't like and won't choose, though it is often chosen for me.
I do not like Hispanic. Never have, never will. I guess that it is because it a word that is not said with pride. It sounds too much like spic. I was called this too many times as a kid by racists.
I am Mexican and American and proud to be both.
As to race, I have a few. Before working on genealogy, I thought that I would find about half indian ancestors and about half European ancestors. I was surprised to find that the mix was different than what I expected. From one grandparent I traced only white ancestors. From another grandparent I found over 90% confirmed white with only a few percentages of confirmed indian. With the other two grandparents, not married to each other, I again found the majority to be white but both descended from the same mulato labeled as such in the early 1700s. I do believe this mulato was black and not indian as some people claim that the label was also used for. This mulato married a woman from Theocaltiche and I only have her parents names and no further ancestors on this line. This is my big deadend that i have never been able to breakthrough. I believe that I also descend from another mulato fro the early 1700's but am still trying to confirm that line.
In the " white" lines going back to Spain in the 15th and 16centuries, I have confirmed five lines that come from Northern Africa/ middle eastern region and were labeled moors.
R A Ricci
I have checked all the boxes that I thought applied: Mexican, White Latino, Native American (Native American nation: Mexican).
Victoriano Navarro
I came across this posting on the National Catholic Reporter web site and thought I would seek out the opinions of the Nuestros Ranchos members.
This is the RAE definition:
latino, na.
7. adj. Natural de los pueblos de Europa y América en que se hablan lenguas derivadas del latín.
8. adj. Perteneciente o relativo a esos mismos pueblos. Los emperadores latinos de Constantinopla. Los países latinos de América.
And I agree, for me a Latino is anybody who speaks a language derived from Latin mainly Spanish and Portuguese, but also French, Italian, etc., regardless of ethnicity. "Música latina" may include Spanish rumbas.
If you want to limit the definition to our continent and exclude Europe, then you have to use the term Latinoamericano.
Same for the difference between Hispano and Hispanoamericano.
Regards from México, Latinoamérica.
Victoriano Navarro
I'd say that anyone with roots in Latin America is Latino. I don't consider Spaniards to be Latino, but Brazilians are.
I personally identify myself (in preferred order) as Chicana, Xicana (when I want to really be badass), Mexican-American, Latina. I do not use the word Hispanic because I think it's a name given to us by white bureaucrats. When I see the word, I tend to read it as "His panic" (which we are), so it doesn't bother me too much. :)
As for the Native American thing and Junipero Serra, I don't think he should be canonized. The Spanish were pretty brutal in their treatment of the Natives, and forced hard labor may not be slavery, but I think that's splitting hairs.
Laura
Here in the USA and lately (thanks to the media) in other countries the word Latino refers to anyone with a spanish speaking culture ancestry but except the Eurpeans and Asians, thus neither Spanish or Philipines are considered Latinos, under the USA concept that is. As a person that born and grew up in Mexico, I always use Hispanic, simply because Latino makes me think of Rome. Then I guess neither the common use of the word nor me would considered Junipero a Latino (although he likely knew Latin) he was as far as I am concern Spanish :).
Regarding His role in the Missions and the impact that produced on the Natives, is difficult to tell at what extent he was or he wasn't good to them. The common belief in Mexican and thus California Spanish history is that All natives were abused by All Spanish. Far from reality, for example I still yet to come across to more than ten records mentioning Natives as slaves, (not that I have look into all records of all times) hard labor and slavery is, if not any better, not the same. By the time Junipero was in America I doubt there was any "official" slave within the Native communities. I am not going to defend all Spanish people who venture to this lands, I am just saying that things were little more complicated than black and white, for example the fact that Spanish used the rivalry among natives to force one group to ally and ultimately wipe out the other as "enemies", something that has no place on school books still.
My thinking on this is that todays Natives true to their cultures (or what remains of it) shouldn't bother for what the Catholic Church does. I mean, is not their original religion. Unfortunately some people's tyrant is another's hero. but thats just me.
Hi,
I'm trying to figure if only padrinos are listed, or grandparents as well. Bottom left side, Marquez twins. Thanks!
I agree, only padrinos are listed, each of them with their own.
Victoriano Navarro
Only padrinos are mentioned in this file.
I made a correction an the baptism date and calculate the birth day (16 days before).
I am seeking information about my maternal 7 great grandparents, Onfre de Soto married to Cayetana de Estrada. Onfre was baptised 21 Feb 1683 in Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, MX.
Paul, Daniel,
Thank you for the information. I am also a descendant of Onofre and Cayetana. Have you been able to identify their parents and grandparents? Any information and source citations about their ascendants would be very appreciated. Thank you.
Alma Rosales
arosales705@gmail.com
Hi Paul, I hope this helps, Ive worked on this line a bit
in the baptism of Juan de San Pedro, Cayetana is listed
as Cayetana de Ruvalcaba (prob. Gonzalez de Ruvalcaba)
on the others she is Cayetana de Estrada.
Regards,
Daniel
Father: Onofre Soto, Mother: Cayetana
Exact Spelling: Off Matches:All Sources - 3International Genealogical Index - Mexico1. Manuel Lauriano De Soto De Estrada - International Genealogical Index / ME
Gender: Male Christening: 26 APR 1714 Nuestra Senora De Los Dolores, Teocaltiche, Jalisco, Mexico
2. Julian Antonio De Soto De Estrada - International Genealogical Index / ME
Gender: Male Christening: 15 MAY 1712 Nuestra Senora De Los Dolores, Teocaltiche, Jalisco, Mexico
3. JUAN DE SAN PEDRO NOLASCO SOTO - International Genealogical Index / ME
Gender: Male Christening: 12 MAR 1722 El Sagrario, Aguascalientes, MexicoTo learn more about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saintsplease visit www.mormon.org
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: paul.gomez@verizon.net
> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:19:18 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Onfre de Soto = Cayetana de Estrada
>
> I am seeking information about my maternal 7 great grandparents, Onfre de Soto married to Cayetana de Estrada. Onfre was baptised 21 Feb 1683 in Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, MX. I have discovered 1 child, Lucas Luciano de Soto, born about 1705.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Paul Gomez
> Rancho Cucamonga, CA
I located a marriage document (1891) with the groom's signature, which makes me curious about any formal and informal educational opportunities during that time period, and how they may have varied by
I found this website with pictures of a panteon of Monte Escobedo. Looks old and made out of cantera:
http://labestad.reduaz.mx/web/turismo/patrimonew/galeria.php?donde=031…
This is a picture of the original capilla of San Diego De Alcala of Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco, Mexico:
http://oi60.tinypic.com/15ote8o.jpg
It still exists today. The Parroquia of San Diego De Alcala is a much bigger building that is next to the Plaza and Presidencia offices of Huejuquilla El Alto.
Which is this one:
http://oi61.tinypic.com/2nbwtxi.jpg
And this is another church called the Sanctuario De Divino Preso which is down the street from the Parroquia De San Diego:
http://oi59.tinypic.com/2hs2lj9.jpg
In front of the Sanctuario De Divino Preso Church there are two gardens in front of the door (atrio) which are surrounded by a small fence. I believe there are some tombs there, but I think they are of past priests. Not sure. There could have been more tombs in that area in the past.
Looking at the Monte Escobedo Government website. Now I see there are 8 panteones:
http://www.monteescobedo.gob.mx/archivos/1405007819.pdf
http://oi57.tinypic.com/j6lyyw.jpg
Starting to look like that if I want to locate where my ancestors were buried that were in the generation of 1600's or 1700's, it may be in the atrio of the Iglesias before they started buring them in cemetaries away from the Church.
I am getting more of an idea how a panteon at the atrio of an iglesia looks like. This youtube video is one in the open court in front of the Church. The Panteon of the Atrio of Iglesia San Juan Evangelista, Jalisco, Mexico which says are the tombs dating back to 1617!!!!! I guess because back then the population was small:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns21o30xwD4
I am going to have to pay more attention to the atrios of the churchs where my ancestors were recorded at.
I was just told by someone who is a well known historian of Zacatecas and lives over there. He told me that:
"Las personas seeneterraban en los templos, y los cementerios fuera del pueblo fue hasta el año de 1810 en eadelante. no creo que sea pánteon antiguo el de Monte Escobedo o Laguan Grande."
So then in the early days, people were buried at the churches. People didn't start getting buried in the cementaries away from the pueblos until the year 1810.
Good now I know where to look for the my ancestors prior to 1800's
What about the poor folks? Where were they buried?
On Mar 18, 2015 9:17 PM, wrote:
> I was just told by someone who is a well known historian of Zacatecas and
> lives over there. He told me that: "Las personas seeneterraban en los
> templos, y los cementerios fuera del pueblo fue hasta el año de 1810 en
> eadelante. no creo que sea pánteon antiguo el de Monte Escobedo o Laguan
> Grande." So then in the early days, people were buried at the churches.
> People didn't start getting buried in the cementaries away from the pueblos
> until the year 1810. Good now I know where to look for the my ancestors
> prior
> to 1800's
>
Thats right ab 1870 some priest of Monte Escobedo put the bodys in the old cementery because a lot of people died in that time . My 8th grandfather Cap. Nicolas Sanchez Castellanos y Haro (1643-1728) was buried besides the holy water according his will but nobody knows if the bodys inside the church were put in the old cementery. Thats the version of Lauro Marquez Sanchez the priest of Monte Escobedo who built the church of Monte Escobedo.
Hi,
Right side, one of the two really really faded entries is for a Joseph Marquez, 21 Feb 1729. Can anyone see anything? :(
Although it seems like there are a heck of a lot of padrinos, I see no mention of abuelos
Parts that I can see (after tweaking the image)
"...en la capilla del Cabezon...puse los oleos y christmas a Joseph Manuel de dos dias... ...Juo. Marquez y de G... Arriola... padrinos... M...
Now the entry for the record in the index shows the names as Joseph Manuel Marquez son of Juan Anttonio Marquez and Gertrudis Anna Brigida, this names where likely indexed when the film was taken and thus they could see a slightly better image than this scans. I personally don't think it says Anttonio for the father, but can't really tell, and for the mother the name Arriola is clear after some brightness/contrast adjustments. The name/surname of the godfather is not clear or obvious to me, but definitely starts with a M, could it be Miranda? or Ma. can't figure it out.
By the way nice to see some research on my hometown!.
La Joya Search