Dr.mt

Teocaltiche Marquez Hacienda

Published by rasaenz1980 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

I am looking for information regarding the Marquez families in Teocaltiche, more specifically from Atepoca.  I was told that my great grandmother, Francisca Marquez lived in a Hacienda, but I can not find that information anywhere.  Does anybody know how I can go about finding out that information?  

Read full topic ➜

For Pat: Regarding Charlamagne

Published by mendezdetorres –
Foros
Genealogy Research

I only descend from Charlamagne on both of my parent's sides, not Muhammad "the prophet".

Here is my first connection

Daniel Méndez del Camino b: 1992
José Gabriel Méndez y Cortés b: 1956
Martín Méndez de Serrano b: 1917

Comentarios

Comentario

Hello:

It has been years since this topic has been discussed. I am currently going through each branch of my tree when I hit a crossroad with Alvaro Ornelas. There are many theories to his line but I am wondering if there has been any document that has been found to link him to his parents while in Mexico? His marriage record clearly shows his wife Ysabel Sanchez de Mendoza and her parents Toribio Hernandez de Arrellano and Isabel Mendoza listed but no listed parents. Has there been any documents online connecting his parents in recent years?

Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Lun, 2014-04-21 22:56 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

25 - João Fernandes de Ornelas, senhor do solar de Dornelas, casado ( em ? ) com TERESA ANES DE VASCONCELOS
26 - D. JOÃO PERES DE VASCONCELOS, o Tenreiro, casado ( em ? ) com Maria Soares Coelho

It is important to understand that Joao Perez de Vasconcelos and Maria Soares Coelho are the parents of Teresa Anes de Vasconcelos. Joao Fernandez de Ornelas is their son in law, his father descends from Sancho Veloso .

"Sancho Veloso is the incestuous son of the King of Leon Don Rodrigo III and his sister the Princess Dona Ermesenda."(The Gran Enciclopedia Portuguesa e Brasileira). This is not a myth.

King Rodrigo III of Leon had an incestuous relationship with his half sister the princess Ermesande. From this relationship a child, Sancho el Veloso. was born with a genetic defect named congenital hypertrichosis. This is the earliest historical record of this condition that I know of.

Definition: Congenital generalized hypertrichosis causes males to exhibit excessive facial and upper body hair, whereas women exhibit less severe asymmetrical hair distribution.The palms, soles, and mucous membranes are not affected.

The condition of congenital Hypertrichosis is extremely rare. Almost nonexistent. A few that have it have something in common, descent from an Ornelas. The famous Mexican and Portuguese families that have this condition are descendants of Sancho Veloso.
In India a man has been found with this condition, and of course an Ornelas visited India.

The Mexican families are said to be able to trace their descendancy to Portugal though I am not in possession of their family tree. One of these families is a family from Zacatecas that can be traced to the Canary Islands, part of Portugal.

1 Rodrigo III, King of Leon and his half sister, Ermesende are the parents of
2 Sancho Veloso of whom families can trace their congenital condition of hypertrichosis. He is the father of
3 Rodrigo el Veloso and a condessa from France named Almabra (or Alambert) some claim that she descends from French royalty but I have not found any more information on her, she is most likely no
This is the line that continues to:

25 - João Fernandes de Ornelas, senhor do solar de Dornelas,

R.A.Ricci

Comentario

Este Álvaro de Ornelas ...

"5 Álvaro n. 1560 e morreu criança."

...como se indica, fue hijo de Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos (filho de Mem de Ornelas e Vasconcelos & Helena de Góis), administrador do vinculo, casado con Maria de Teive, filha de Diogo de Teive e Catarina Rodrigues. en el Título de Teives. Morreu no Caniço em 1583.

No es "nuestro" Álvaro de Ornelas. Existieron como unos 14 o 15 Alvaros de Ornelas y pues entre tantos se puede uno confundir. No he podido precisar exactamente cual de todos fue el mismísimo Álvaro de Ornelas, patriarca de los Ornelas de Los Altos de Jalisco. Hubieron unos dos Álvaros de Ornelas, de otras ramas, que son los candidatos más posibles. Los ricos y abonanzados por primogenitura nunca dejaron su terruño de Madeira, sino los menos afortunados y de líneas segundonas que buscaron una vida nueva en la Nueva España.

Esta rama que puse aquí recientemente es la del Morgado do Caniço, o sea la más ilustre y primogénita, pero que se permaneció en Madeira...nunca se vino a México. Honestamente, nosotros solamente conectamos como hasta la generación #3. A partir de la Cuarta, pues son familia lejana portuguesa-madeirense.

Yo tampoco he logrado conectar el abismo entre México y Madeira, Portugal. Pero hay tantas fuentes documentales de los hechos y las vidas de los Ornelas, que se me hace muy tentador unir todos los cabos sueltos que estoy encontrando en mis búsquedas en los textos portugueses.

Me detendré en comentar más, y en particular sobre las "leyendas" del origen incestuoso de Sancho Veloso, pero si quisiera desmentir un "dato" que se ha debatido en circulos de genealogía portuguesa por años. Nunca hubo un rey llamado Rodrigo III...eso fue un error originalmente publicado y luego difundido por otras personas. Sospecho que el nombre Ramiro fue escrito como R.o y pues se confudió u olvidó quien era Ramiro y que transcribió como Rodrigo por error. El rey don Ramiro III de León (León, 961 – León, 984/985), 9º Rey de León (966/967 – 982). Fue llamado El Niño o el Joven, heredó la corona de León a los cinco años de edad, tras la muerte de su padre Sancho I el Gordo.

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Comentario

"El Conde Don Rodrigo Perez Velloso, de quien trata este capitulo, que despues fué muy leal servidor del Emperador, era de la Casa Real de Leon, porque sus antecessores fuéron el Rey Don Ramiro de Leon, hijo de Don Sancho el Gordo: el qual en una hermana suya de parte de padre, llamada Doña Hermesinda, hubo un hijo que llamarón el Velloso, que fué gran caballero y poderoso en Galicia, donde tuvo muchas tierras y honores. Dél nació Don Rodrigo Velloso, Señor de Cabrera y Ribera en tiempo de Don Bermudo el Iunior y Don Hernando Primero. Dél nació Don Pedro Ruiz en el reynado de Don Alonso Sexto. Dél nació Don Rodrigo Perez Velloso, de quien trata este capítulo, que casó con hija del Conde Don Vela. De Don Rodrigo nació Fernan Ruiz de Cabreyra y Ribera, que casó con una Señora de Aragon de la Casa de Enteza. De Don Fernando nació Ruy Fernandez de Cabrera y Ribera, que casó dos veces. La primera con Doña María Flores de los Guzmanes de Leon. La segunda con Doña Sancha Ramirez, hija del Conde Don Ramiro Flores de la misma familia. De Ruy Fernandez nació Fernan Ruiz de Cabreyra y Ribera en tiempo de Don Alonso el Sabio. Fernan Ruiz hubo de la segunda muger á Ramir Ruiz de Cabrera, de quien vienen los de Ribera, Duques de Alcalá, y otros mayorazgos destos reynos ilustres e señalados en él."

Somewhere else I read Prince and not king, I thought the difference in title was that the child was before he became king. If you say he wasn't king then that explains why the Two other reports that I had read only said Prince

R.A.Ricci

Comentario

.

Família antiga de Portugal, que tem por solar a honra de Dornelas, na terra de Entre Homen e Cávado actualmente freguesia de São Salvador no concelho de Amares, distrito de Braga, da qual tomou o paelido, que por se perder a noção da origem pois Dornelas é diminutivo de dornas, deu lugar à disjunção da incial, que se tomou por preposição, possando a de Ornelas. Fantasiosos autores pretendem ver neste fenómeno linguístico transformação intencional para atribuição de parentescos engrandecedores de família. Por varonia provém do Conde D. Rodrigo Veloso casado com D. Alambet, infanta francesa, ele filho do Conde D. Sancho Veloso. que se diz ter este apelido por haver nascido coberto de pêlos, e de sua mulher D. Moninha Forjaz, aquele filho incestuoso do rei de Leão. D., Rodrigo III e de sua irmã a infanta D. Ermesenda. Diz-se que o Conde D. Rodrigo Veloso nasceu na torre do Outeiro. situada na mesma freguesia que o solar de Dornlas, no ano de 981. João Fernades, o Franco, filho de Rui Fernandes Velos, chamado o Feio de Valdornas, quarto neto do mencionado Conde D. Rodrigo Veloso, foi grande fidalgo, muito honrado e rico. Viveu no reinado de D. Afonso III, sendo-lhe coutada por padrões a freguesia de São Salvador do Souto, no julgado de Entre Homem e Cávado, em cujos limites se inclúa a povoação de Dornelas, de cuja honra teve o senhorio.

Another quote on the Ornelas curse, I hope this convinces you, if not, I am going to have to stop shaving so you can see it is not a myth.

R.A.Ricci

Comentario

This "quote" is taken almost verbatim from “Armorial Lusitano”: genealogía e heráldica [direcção e coordenação desta obra de Afonso Eduardo Martins Zúquete]. Edições Zairol Lda. : 1987, Lisbõa,Portugal. ORNELAS -

Pgs. 405-406.

Please tell Nuestros Ranchos that this (complete with spelling mistakes and factual errors...IT IS NOT RODRIGO III, BUT RATHER RAMIRO III) came from "The Heraldrys Institute of Rome"

http://www.heraldrysinstitute.com/cognomi/idc/602264/lang/en/
(These kinds of webpages of post-secondary sources are not accurate and should be accepted with EXTREME CAUTION)

Whether or not we descend from an incestuous relationship has been highly debated in Portuguese genealogical circles FOR YEARS!!!! Just search "Sancho Veloso/Velloso" and you will see what I mean. A few authors gloss over it saying it is a farce, nonsense, a myth, a legend, a conspiracy to usurp the throne. I don't know because I wasn't there. I'm not gonna read a book or some website, and act like now I know the truth. NO!!! None of us know the whole story, only was fortunate enough to be written down.

All I can do is "trust" the original sources, and "hope" that they are accurate. But the farther back you go in genealogy, the more likely it is that there are monumental errors or grand exaggerations.

Speaking of grand exaggerations, same goes for Alambet/Alambert/Ambey, the supposed French "infanta francesa". No sources actually identify her parents. Some site Robert II and Louis VII, but neither of them have a historically documented daughter with that name. Conde D. Rodrigo Veloso, son of Sancho Veloso, married Aldara Paez and it is perhaps her who everyone has her mixed up with. But again, "A mi no me consta..." The story was created I believe to justify why there are three fleur-de-lis on the Ornelas coat of arms came from. The origin of the three fleur-de-lis on the Ornelas coat of arms goes back to roughly 1200-1300, right around this time and maybe there really was a woman called Alambet, "infanta francesa" but her parentage is lost in time.

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Comentario

This "quote" is taken almost verbatim from “Armorial Lusitano”: genealogía e heráldica [direcção e coordenação desta obra de Afonso Eduardo Martins Zúquete]. Edições Zairol Lda. : 1987, Lisbõa,Portugal. ORNELAS -

Pgs. 405-406.

Please tell Nuestros Ranchos that this (complete with spelling mistakes and factual errors...IT IS NOT RODRIGO III, BUT RATHER RAMIRO III) came from "The Heraldrys Institute of Rome"

http://www.heraldrysinstitute.com/cognomi/idc/602264/lang/en/
(These kinds of webpages of post-secondary sources are not accurate and should be accepted with EXTREME CAUTION)

Whether or not we descend from an incestuous relationship has been highly debated in Portuguese genealogical circles FOR YEARS!!!! Just search "Sancho Veloso/Velloso" and you will see what I mean. A few authors gloss over it saying it is a farce, nonsense, a myth, a legend, a conspiracy to usurp the throne. I don't know because I wasn't there. I'm not gonna read a book or some website, and act like now I know the truth. NO!!! None of us know the whole story, only was fortunate enough to be written down.

All I can do is "trust" the original sources, and "hope" that they are accurate. But the farther back you go in genealogy, the more likely it is that there are monumental errors or grand exaggerations.

Speaking of grand exaggerations, same goes for Alambet/Alambert/Ambey, the supposed French "infanta francesa". No sources actually identify her parents. Some site Robert II and Louis VII, but neither of them have a historically documented daughter with that name. Conde D. Rodrigo Veloso, son of Sancho Veloso, married Aldara Paez and it is perhaps her who everyone has her mixed up with. But again, "A mi no me consta..." The story was created I believe to justify why there are three fleur-de-lis on the Ornelas coat of arms came from. The origin of the three fleur-de-lis on the Ornelas coat of arms goes back to roughly 1200-1300, right around this time and maybe there really was a woman called Alambet, "infanta francesa" but her parentage is lost in time.

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Comentario

We are discussing right here, right now in Nuestros Ranchos questions about our Ornelas ancestry that our Portuguese and Brazilian primos have have been discussing, arguing about, and fighting over for YEARS!!!!

http://www.geneall.net/P/forum_msg.php?id=251539&fview=e

I am not convinced by hear-say, so I'm always skeptical when I see "proof." The documentation closer to the time period, and from an original source, archive, or book is preferable to re-hashed Web pages from genealogy forum discussion threads (Just like this one!!!)

I just want to encourage others to be more cautious, but most importantly...ANALYZE MULTIPLE SOURCES, NOT JUST ONE. The more the better

And Senhor Simões puts it best:

"É preciso ter muita cautela com linhas genealogicas que recuam até á epoca medieval - muitas delas baseiam-se erros e documentos fantasistas. Esta, provavelmente , é uma delas.

Não houve nenhum rei de Leão "Rodrigo III", no séx X. Houve o rei Rodrigo, dos Visigodos (muito antes de haver reino de Leão), no sec VII/VIII, 300 anos antes. E este dificilmente seria pai de um "conde Sancho Veloso". Como vê não há ponta por onde se pegue.

Não acredite imediatamente em tudo o que se encontra para aí escrito ou na net. Principalmente se não se indicam as fontes." (Don't immediately give credit to everything you find written out there on the web. Especially if the sources are not indicated.)"

Cumprimentos
E.Simões "

http://www.geneall.net/P/forum_msg.php?id=251539&fview=e

Steven Francisco Hernández López

Comentario

Hello Steven Hernandez,

I agree that much still needs to be studied on this line and that there is misinformation on the this subject on the internet. We need to be careful to not help spread misinformation. I do believe that there is truth in the birth of Sancho El Veloso and believe that resulted in his genetic abnormality, congenital hypertrichosis, that is extremely rare, in fact it is the earliest historical record of this condition that I know of. I don't believe that it is a coincidence that extremely rare cases of congenital Hypertrichosis have a common ancestor from the Ornelas family.

The famous Mexican and Portuguese families that have this condition are descendants of Sancho Veloso through the Ornelas line.
In India a man has been found with this condition, and of course, there is a record of an Ornelas visiting India.

The Mexican families are said to be able to trace their descendancy to Portugal though I am not in possession of their family tree. One of these families is a family from Zacatecas that can be traced to the Canary Islands, part of Portugal.

When I first read about this story, it only spoke of his birth as the grandson of the king and that his parents were half siblings with different mothers. as you clearly stated, some of the genealogical tree need to be clarified and we have never been able to figure out the parents of Alamber though she does seem to be of French nobility.

The answers to the questions we have on this family are in the "tons of documents" that you have described. Any clarifications necessitate that the researcher have a better command of Portuguese than I possess. I wish you a lot of luck finding the documents that prove these connections.

R.A.Ricci

Comentario

Hello Steven Hernandez,

I agree that much still needs to be studied on this line and that there is misinformation on the this subject on the internet. We need to be careful to not help spread misinformation. I do believe that there is truth in the birth of Sancho El Veloso and believe that resulted in his genetic abnormality, congenital hypertrichosis, that is extremely rare, in fact it is the earliest historical record of this condition that I know of. I don't believe that it is a coincidence that extremely rare cases of congenital Hypertrichosis have a common ancestor from the Ornelas family.

The famous Mexican and Portuguese families that have this condition are descendants of Sancho Veloso through the Ornelas line.
In India a man has been found with this condition, and of course, there is a record of an Ornelas visiting India.

The Mexican families are said to be able to trace their descendancy to Portugal though I am not in possession of their family tree. One of these families is a family from Zacatecas that can be traced to the Canary Islands, part of Portugal.

When I first read about this story, it only spoke of his birth as the grandson of the king and that his parents were half siblings with different mothers. as you clearly stated, some of the genealogical tree need to be clarified and we have never been able to figure out the parents of Alamber though she does seem to be of French nobility.

The answers to the questions we have on this family are in the "tons of documents" that you have described. Any clarifications necessitate that the researcher have a better command of Portuguese than I possess. I wish you a lot of luck finding the documents that prove these connections.

R.A.Ricci

Comentario

Estimados primos:

Lamento decirles que a pesar de la facilidad de resúmenes genealógicos como el presentado sobre el linaje de los Ornelas, es muy peligroso aceptar estos “datos” como fuentes documentales verídicas ya que hay información incorrecta aquí, específicamente en ciertas generaciones particulares. Es muy divertido soñar que tenemos “sangre real” y más cuando investigamos familias y linajes que se reconocen tenerla. Nuestras imaginaciones vuelan por las nubes de sangre azul, pero nos olvidamos de acertarnos en la veracidad de los documentos fidedignos.

Aquí queda como anillo al dedo recordar el viejo refrán, que dice así: “Una cadena es tan fuerte como el más débil de sus eslabones. (A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.)”

Yo ya llevo como unos cinco años investigando la genealogía de los Ornelas de la isla portuguesa de Madeira. Estoy de acuerdo con Daniel que entre las generaciones 14 y 19 las personas mencionadas son correctas, ya que los habíamos discutido Daniel y yo en 2009 y 2010, pero puede ser que no descendamos a través de estas personas exactas. Yo estoy en la opinión que es posible que descendamos por OTRA rama de Álvaro de Ornelas, “O Grande”. También los títulos y las fechas no son exactamente los utilizados en las fuentes originales en portugués en los archivos madeirenses. En Madeira, el hijo primogénito de Álvaro de Ornelas fue creado como “Senhor do Morgado do Caniço” título que se transmitió por varonía primogénita por muchas generaciones. Pero Daniel nos da una buena idea de todos modos.

Existieron como unos 15 individuos que portaron el nombre Álvaro de Ornelas, todos descendientes de Álvaro de Ornelas, “O Grande”. No hay ningún documento mexicano que nos diga sin duda quienes fueron los padres de Álvaro de Ornelas, “el Viejo”, Genearca de los Ornelas de Los Altos de Jalisco. Éste se casó en 1586, ya nació entre 1555 y 1565. Bueno, pues hay varios “Álvaros” en estas fechas, y debido al transcurso de las generaciones, Álvaro de Ornelas, “el Viejo”, Genearca de los Ornelas de Los Altos de Jalisco tuvo que haber sido bisnieto o tataranieto de Álvaro de Ornelas, “O Grande”.
14. Alvaro III de Ornelas e de Vasconcellos, FIDALGO NOBLE b: 1561 (weak link)
15. Mem de Ornelas e de Moura, FIDALGO NOBLE b: 1530
16. João de Ornelas e Furtado de Mendoça, FIDALGO NOBLE b: 1502
17. Alvaro II Alvarez, Señor de Ornelas b: 1440
18. Alvaro I López, Señor de Ornelas b: 1424
19. Lope Estévez, Señor de Ornelas b: 1409

[[Yo tengo estas generaciones así, por haber estudiado otro posible candidato :
1. Álvaro de Ornelas, “el Viejo” & Isabel Sánchez de Mendoza, Genearcas de Los Altos de Jalisco
2. João de Ornelas de Vasconcelos & Luzia Perestrello (??) (weak link)
3. João de Ornelas de Vasconcelos & Cecília de Moura (??)
4. Álvaro de Ornelas e Saavedra & Constança de Vasconcelos e Mendonça
5. Álvaro de Ornelas “o Grande” & Elvira Fernandes de Saavedra
6. Lopo Esteves de Dornelas & María de Ayala
7. Pedro Anes de Dornelas & Estefânia Barreto. .]]

Esto está mal...
{{20. Estefanía de Aviz, Princesa de Portugal b: 1381
21. João I de Aviz, Rey de Portugal b: 1357}}
En realidad No. 20 “Estefanía de Aviz” se llamaba “Estefânia Barreto” y no era hija del Rei João I de Portugal. El rei Dom João no tuvo una hija llamada Estefania, ni legítima ni natural. Este es el eslabón más débil de todos…This is the weakest link.

Para todos Uds. que les gustan las delineaciones genealógicas, por favor accedan al siguiente enlace http://www.geneall.net/P/forum_msg.php?id=251558&fview=e. Aquí veran...

17 - MEM DE ORNELAS DE VASCONCELOS casado ( em ? ) com Helena de Goes
18 - ÁLVARO DE ORNELAS DE SAAVEDRA casado ( em ? ) com Constança de Mendonça de Vasconcelos (*)
19 - ÁLVARO DE ORNELAS casado ( em 1455 ) com Elvira Fernandes de Saavedra
20 - LOPO ESTEVES DE ORNELAS casado ( em ? ) com Maria de Ayala
21 - PEDRO ANES DE ORNELAS casado ( em ? ) com Estefânia Barreto
22 - JOÃO DE ORNELAS casado ( em ? ) com Maria Pires (*)
23 - PÊRO FERNANDES DE ORNELAS casado ( em ? ) com Estefânia Aires (*)
24 - FERNÃO FERNANDES DE ORNELAS casado ( em ? ) com N
25 - João Fernandes de Ornelas, senhor do solar de Dornelas, casado ( em ? ) com TERESA ANES DE VASCONCELOS
26 - D. JOÃO PERES DE VASCONCELOS, o Tenreiro, casado ( em ? ) com Maria Soares Coelho
27 - D. PEDRO MARTINS DA TORRE, senhor da Torre de Vasconcelos, casado ( em ? ) com D. Tereza Soares da Silva (*)
28 - D. MARTIM MONIZ casado ( em ? ) com Tereza Afonso
29 - D. MARTIM OSOREZ DE CABRERA casado ( em ? ) com Maria Nunes de Grijó
30 - OSÓRIO GARCIA, conde de Cabrera, casado ( em ? ) com Sancha Moniz
31 - García Ordoñez casado ( em ? ) com URRACA, infanta de León,
32 - FERNANDO I, el Magno, rey de Castilla Y León, casado ( em 1033 ) com Sancha, infanta heredera de León, (*)
33 - Sancho III, el Grande, rey de Navarra y Castilla, casado ( em ? ) com MUNIA MAIOR, heredera de Castilla,
34 - SANCHO GARCIA, conde soberano de Castilla, casado ( em 970 ) com Urraca Gomez
35 - García Fernández, conde soberano de Castilla, casado ( em 930 ) com AVA DE RIBAGORZA
36 - Raimundo II, conde de Ribagorza, casado ( em 910 ) com GERSENDA DE FÈZENSAC
37 - GUILLERMO GARCÊS DA GASCONHA, conde de Fèzensac, casado ( em ? ) com Gracinde de Rouerge (*)
38 - García Sánchez, o Curvado, duque da Gasconha, casado ( em ? ) com AMUNA D'ANGOULÊME
39 - VULGRIN, conde d'Angoulême, Périguex et d'Agen, casado ( em ? ) com Rosalinde de Septimania (*)
40 - Ulrich d'Argengau casado ( em ? ) com SUSANNE DE PARIS
41 - BEGON, conde de Paris, casado ( em ? ) com ALPAIDE
42 - LOUIS I, o Piedoso, Imperador do Ocidente, casado ( em 780 ) com Ermengarda de Hesbaye
43 - CHARLEMAGNE, Kaiser, casado ( em 758 ) com Hildegarde von Vintschgau

Esto sí está mucho más correcto. Todos los libros de genealogía portuguesa que yo he consultado sobre los orígenes de la familia Ornelas (Ornellas, Ornelles, D’Ornelas, D’Ornellas, Dornelas, Dornelas) me han dado una clara idea de la historia de nuestra familia

• Arquivo Regional da Madeira. “Arquivo da Família Ornelas Vasconcelos”. Funchal, Secretaria Regional do Turismo e Cultura, Direcção Regional dos Assuntos Culturais, Arquivo Regional da Madeira, 1998, Vol. XXI. Contém instrumentos descritivos do arquivo da Família Ornelas Vasconcelos. Preço: 12,00 euros - [http://www.arquivo-madeira.org/homepage.php?lang=1]
• Clode, Luíz Peter. Registo Genealógico de Famílias que Passaram à Madeira. Funchal, Madeira: Edições da "Tip. Comercial", 1952.
• Elucidário madeirense / Fernando Augusto da Silva e Carlos de Azevedo de Meneses. - 4ª ed. - Funchal : Secretaria Regional da Educação e Cultura, 1978. [http://www.bprmadeira.org/index_digital.php?IdSeccao=318]
• Freguesias e Concelhos da Madeira : Nota Histórica. Online http://www.madinfo.pt/organismos/ceha/livros/fregues.htm<. [CD]>.
• Noronha, Henrique Henriques de. Nobiliário da Ilha da Madeira.: n.pub., 1947, 2002. [Copia exacta del libro que compré en São Paulo, Brasil - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nobili%C3%A1rio_da_ilha_da_Madei…]
• Memórias Seculares e Eclesiásticas para a Composição da História da Diocesi do Funchal na Ilha da Madeira. Online http://www.madinfo.pt/organismos/ceha/livros/cap129.htm<. [CD]>.
• Nobiliario da Ilha da Madeira, Henrique Henriques de Noronha, Biblioteca genealogica Latina, sobre original de 1700 en la Municipalidad de Funchal, Madeira. 1947, 3 Vols.
• Elucidário madeirense / Fernando Augusto da Silva e Carlos de Azevedo de Meneses. - 4ª ed. - Funchal : Secretaria Regional da Educação e Cultura, 1978. [http://www.bprmadeira.org/index_digital.php?IdSeccao=318]

Tengo tiempo que estoy escribiendo un libro en español sobre la historia y genealogía de nuestra familia Ornelas…sus orígenes, personajes, procesos, anécdotas y contexto histórico. Pero porque me tengo que mudar de casa, todos mis papeles están en cajas y tampoco dispongo de tiempo para seguirle a causa de mi trabajo.

Por el momento les dejo con esto…y a ver qué pasa después.

Su primo y servidor,
Steven Francisco Hernández-López….y Ornelas también.

Comentario

I put Daniels info into my computer but I have struggled for years trying to find information that corroborates the jump from Portugal to Mexico. I posted my lines according to what Daniel Mendez wrote but my research never showed the link. On the contrary, I found that the Alvaro Ornelas son of mem ornelas y Vasconcellos died in his youth "crianca morre". I thought either I was wrong or maybe mem ornelas had a second son named alvaro ornelas. His grandfather named two sons Joao Ornelas, one from each wife. Also the dates that I have didn't seem to fit with the alvaro ornelas of Mexico, Too small of a window but again, I thought maybe my dates are off a little. I am glad to hear that you also had issues with the validity of this line. I actually think that it is possible that Alvaro is one of the Aires Ornelas in the family tree since Aires is the first born son and he would have inherited the title first. If aires was the link then Too bad that the connection could not be made. If our Alvaro is the son named Aires then it makes sense that he has the title and the time frame works. I actually put my post with Daniels hypothesis to see if I could get a reaction from someone. I really struggled with some of the Portuguese documents and glad that I will no longer seek to verify this link.

As to the Estefania Berreto link. I also discovered this link. She has interesting ancestors as she descends from the Moniz family that, although did not have an immediate link to royalty, they had a history of serving the kings over centuries.
And the confusion with another Estefaina may have come from pedro Fernandez de ornelas married to Estefania Aires.

This exercise will not go to waste as eventually the information learned from the Moniz family will come in handy.

Thanks for the post.
R A Ricci

Comentario

Paco,

Very interesting, and I agree with you. My husband has Ornelas in his lines, as well as Alba, Cervantes, and other famous surnames. He could care less. His DNA shows he is haplogroup T1 Mesopotamian, and he was disappointed that his DNA doesn't show indigenous lines like mine (haplogroup C, Native American, pre-Columbian). His hero is Benito Juarez who was Zapotec I think.

I will be interested to see if my husband's Ornelas tie in to yours.

Thank you,

Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA

> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> From: PacoHernandez73@msn.com
> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2014 12:57:34 -0700
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Os Ornelas da Ilha da Madeira (Portugal)
>
> Estimados primos:
>
> Lamento decirles que a pesar de la facilidad de resúmenes genealógicos como el presentado sobre el linaje de los Ornelas, es muy peligroso aceptar estos “datos” como fuentes documentales verídicas ya que hay información incorrecta aquí, específicamente en ciertas generaciones particulares. Es muy divertido soñar que tenemos “sangre real” y más cuando investigamos familias y linajes que se reconocen tenerla. Nuestras imaginaciones vuelan por las nubes de sangre azul, pero nos olvidamos de acertarnos en la veracidad de los documentos fidedignos.
>
> Aquí queda como anillo al dedo recordar el viejo refrán, que dice así: “Una cadena es tan fuerte como el más débil de sus eslabones. (A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.)”
>
> Yo ya llevo como unos cinco años investigando la genealogía de los Ornelas de la isla portuguesa de Madeira. Estoy de acuerdo con Daniel que entre las generaciones 14 y 19 las personas mencionadas son correctas, ya que los habíamos discutido Daniel y yo en 2009 y 2010, pero puede ser que no descendamos a través de estas personas exactas. Yo estoy en la opinión que es posible que descendamos por OTRA rama de Álvaro de Ornelas, “O Grande”. También los títulos y las fechas no son exactamente los utilizados en las fuentes originales en portugués en los archivos madeirenses. En Madeira, el hijo primogénito de Álvaro de Ornelas fue creado como “Senhor do Morgado do Caniço” título que se transmitió por varonía primogénita por muchas generaciones. Pero Daniel nos da una buena idea de todos modos.
>
> Existieron como unos 15 individuos que portaron el nombre Álvaro de Ornelas, todos descendientes de Álvaro de Ornelas, “O Grande”. No hay ningún documento mexicano que nos diga sin duda quienes fueron los padres de Álvaro de Ornelas, “el Viejo”, Genearca de los Ornelas de Los Altos de Jalisco. Éste se casó en 1586, ya nació entre 1555 y 1565. Bueno, pues hay varios “Álvaros” en estas fechas, y debido al transcurso de las generaciones, Álvaro de Ornelas, “el Viejo”, Genearca de los Ornelas de Los Altos de Jalisco tuvo que haber sido bisnieto o tataranieto de Álvaro de Ornelas, “O Grande”.
> 14. Alvaro III de Ornelas e de Vasconcellos, FIDALGO NOBLE b: 1561 (weak link)
> 15. Mem de Ornelas e de Moura, FIDALGO NOBLE b: 1530
> 16. João de Ornelas e Furtado de Mendoça, FIDALGO NOBLE b: 1502
> 17. Alvaro II Alvarez, Señor de Ornelas b: 1440
> 18. Alvaro I López, Señor de Ornelas b: 1424
> 19. Lope Estévez, Señor de Ornelas b: 1409
>
> [[Yo tengo estas generaciones así, por haber estudiado otro posible candidato :
> 1. Álvaro de Ornelas, “el Viejo” & Isabel Sánchez de Mendoza, Genearcas de Los Altos de Jalisco
> 2. João de Ornelas de Vasconcelos & Luzia Perestrello (??) (weak link)
> 3. João de Ornelas de Vasconcelos & Cecília de Moura (??)
> 4. Álvaro de Ornelas e Saavedra & Constança de Vasconcelos e Mendonça
> 5. Álvaro de Ornelas “o Grande” & Elvira Fernandes de Saavedra
> 6. Lopo Esteves de Dornelas & María de Ayala
> 7. Pedro Anes de Dornelas & Estefânia Barreto. .]]
>
> Esto está mal...
> {{20. Estefanía de Aviz, Princesa de Portugal b: 1381
> 21. João I de Aviz, Rey de Portugal b: 1357}}
> En realidad No. 20 “Estefanía de Aviz” se llamaba “Estefânia Barreto” y no era hija del Rei João I de Portugal. El rei Dom João no tuvo una hija llamada Estefania, ni legítima ni natural. Este es el eslabón más débil de todos…This is the weakest link.
>
> Para todos Uds. que les gustan las delineaciones genealógicas, por favor accedan al siguiente enlace http://www.geneall.net/P/forum_msg.php?id=251558&fview=e. Aquí veran...
>
> 17 - MEM DE ORNELAS DE VASCONCELOS casado ( em ? ) com Helena de Goes
> 18 - ÁLVARO DE ORNELAS DE SAAVEDRA casado ( em ? ) com Constança de Mendonça de Vasconcelos (*)
> 19 - ÁLVARO DE ORNELAS casado ( em 1455 ) com Elvira Fernandes de Saavedra
> 20 - LOPO ESTEVES DE ORNELAS casado ( em ? ) com Maria de Ayala
> 21 - PEDRO ANES DE ORNELAS casado ( em ? ) com Estefânia Barreto
> 22 - JOÃO DE ORNELAS casado ( em ? ) com Maria Pires (*)
> 23 - PÊRO FERNANDES DE ORNELAS casado ( em ? ) com Estefânia Aires (*)
> 24 - FERNÃO FERNANDES DE ORNELAS casado ( em ? ) com N
> 25 - João Fernandes de Ornelas, senhor do solar de Dornelas, casado ( em ? ) com TERESA ANES DE VASCONCELOS
> 26 - D. JOÃO PERES DE VASCONCELOS, o Tenreiro, casado ( em ? ) com Maria Soares Coelho
> 27 - D. PEDRO MARTINS DA TORRE, senhor da Torre de Vasconcelos, casado ( em ? ) com D. Tereza Soares da Silva (*)
> 28 - D. MARTIM MONIZ casado ( em ? ) com Tereza Afonso
> 29 - D. MARTIM OSOREZ DE CABRERA casado ( em ? ) com Maria Nunes de Grijó
> 30 - OSÓRIO GARCIA, conde de Cabrera, casado ( em ? ) com Sancha Moniz
> 31 - García Ordoñez casado ( em ? ) com URRACA, infanta de León,
> 32 - FERNANDO I, el Magno, rey de Castilla Y León, casado ( em 1033 ) com Sancha, infanta heredera de León, (*)
> 33 - Sancho III, el Grande, rey de Navarra y Castilla, casado ( em ? ) com MUNIA MAIOR, heredera de Castilla,
> 34 - SANCHO GARCIA, conde soberano de Castilla, casado ( em 970 ) com Urraca Gomez
> 35 - García Fernández, conde soberano de Castilla, casado ( em 930 ) com AVA DE RIBAGORZA
> 36 - Raimundo II, conde de Ribagorza, casado ( em 910 ) com GERSENDA DE FÈZENSAC
> 37 - GUILLERMO GARCÊS DA GASCONHA, conde de Fèzensac, casado ( em ? ) com Gracinde de Rouerge (*)
> 38 - García Sánchez, o Curvado, duque da Gasconha, casado ( em ? ) com AMUNA D'ANGOULÊME
> 39 - VULGRIN, conde d'Angoulême, Périguex et d'Agen, casado ( em ? ) com Rosalinde de Septimania (*)
> 40 - Ulrich d'Argengau casado ( em ? ) com SUSANNE DE PARIS
> 41 - BEGON, conde de Paris, casado ( em ? ) com ALPAIDE
> 42 - LOUIS I, o Piedoso, Imperador do Ocidente, casado ( em 780 ) com Ermengarda de Hesbaye
> 43 - CHARLEMAGNE, Kaiser, casado ( em 758 ) com Hildegarde von Vintschgau
>
> Esto sí está mucho más correcto. Todos los libros de genealogía portuguesa que yo he consultado sobre los orígenes de la familia Ornelas (Ornellas, Ornelles, D’Ornelas, D’Ornellas, Dornelas, Dornelas) me han dado una clara idea de la historia de nuestra familia
>
> • Arquivo Regional da Madeira. “Arquivo da Família Ornelas Vasconcelos”. Funchal, Secretaria Regional do Turismo e Cultura, Direcção Regional dos Assuntos Culturais, Arquivo Regional da Madeira, 1998, Vol. XXI. Contém instrumentos descritivos do arquivo da Família Ornelas Vasconcelos. Preço: 12,00 euros - [http://www.arquivo-madeira.org/homepage.php?lang=1]
> • Clode, Luíz Peter. Registo Genealógico de Famílias que Passaram à Madeira. Funchal, Madeira: Edições da "Tip. Comercial", 1952.
> • Elucidário madeirense / Fernando Augusto da Silva e Carlos de Azevedo de Meneses. - 4ª ed. - Funchal : Secretaria Regional da Educação e Cultura, 1978. [http://www.bprmadeira.org/index_digital.php?IdSeccao=318]
> • Freguesias e Concelhos da Madeira : Nota Histórica. Online http://www.madinfo.pt/organismos/ceha/livros/fregues.htm.
> • Noronha, Henrique Henriques de. Nobiliário da Ilha da Madeira.: n.pub., 1947, 2002. [Copia exacta del libro que compré en São Paulo, Brasil - http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nobili%C3%A1rio_da_ilha_da_Madei…]
> • Memórias Seculares e Eclesiásticas para a Composição da História da Diocesi do Funchal na Ilha da Madeira. Online http://www.madinfo.pt/organismos/ceha/livros/cap129.htm.
> • Nobiliario da Ilha da Madeira, Henrique Henriques de Noronha, Biblioteca genealogica Latina, sobre original de 1700 en la Municipalidad de Funchal, Madeira. 1947, 3 Vols.
> • Elucidário madeirense / Fernando Augusto da Silva e Carlos de Azevedo de Meneses. - 4ª ed. - Funchal : Secretaria Regional da Educação e Cultura, 1978. [http://www.bprmadeira.org/index_digital.php?IdSeccao=318]
>
>
> Tengo tiempo que estoy escribiendo un libro en español sobre la historia y genealogía de nuestra familia Ornelas…sus orígenes, personajes, procesos, anécdotas y contexto histórico. Pero porque me tengo que mudar de casa, todos mis papeles están en cajas y tampoco dispongo de tiempo para seguirle a causa de mi trabajo.
>
> Por el momento les dejo con esto…y a ver qué pasa después.
>
>
> Su primo y servidor,
> Steven Francisco Hernández-López….y Ornelas también.
>

Comentario

Hello Steve,
I have also spent a lot of time working on the ornelas lines. I totally agree with you that our Alvaro Ornelas is a great grandson or great great grandson of Alvaro Ornelas " o Grande" and Elvira Fernandez de Saavedra. I have been totally unsuccessful in coming up with the right link though.
The Alvaro Ornelas, son of Mem Ornelas that I found to be a possibility became an impossibility when I discovered that he is recorded as dying at a young age. But still there is a small possibility that we have a case like one my ancestors, Domingo Alvarez Tostado, who both Mariano Gonzalez Leal and Jaime Holcombe record as dying at a young age. Marriage dispensations, marriage records, and baptismal records state very clearly that the parents of my ancestor Domingo Alvarez Tostado are the same parents of the dead Domingo Alvarez tostado. Domingo's descendants repeatedly married his sisters descendents and there are many many marriage dispensations identifying their relationship.
The second possible scenario is that it is a case resembling Bartolome Colon, Christopher Colombus's much younger brother. Bartolommeo's mother and sisters believe that he had died since he had been missing for so many years when he was kidnapped. They dispersed his assets and were surprised when he later showed up alive. If our alvaro ornelas took off to Mexico without communicating for years they may have believed that he died. This would explain why they believed this Alvaro Ornelas died young. By recording a "young death it can be assumed that there are no children to inherit and his parents and siblings would take control of his assets immediately. If someone is recorded as dying at a an older age then there is an assumption that there will be possible claims on the assets and the family cannot take control of the assets as easily.

In the first case, they must have had another son and named him Domingo Alvarez Tostado, for all the marriage dispensations state who his parents are.
In the second case, just like Bartolomeo's disappearance, if our Alvaro Ornelas went to Mexico at a young age and did not communicate for a few years then they may have believed that he died, recorded his death and dispersed his assets in the easiest way possible by listing his death as the last time that they saw him alive.

I know both of these scenarios are a reach but they both happened in real life.

Since all indications point to our Alvaro Ornelas descending from Alvaro "o Grande" and Elvira Saavedra, and there are still many Portuguese documents still in existence detailing the many marriages and relationships of theseMadeira (Portuguese) families that are all related over and over again, I am confident that eventually we will find out the exact relationship. You will most likely find this relationship before I do as I struggle understanding some of these old Portuguese documents. One of the hardest of the Portuguese writers for me to understand is Felgueiras Gaio. I did not see his name listed as one of your sources. With your understanding of Portuguese, you are more capable and efficient than I am of finding our alvaro ornelas in his voluminous work. It would take a lot of time and hard work to research his material but the answers to our questions about our Alvaro Ornelas are likely to be found in his thousands of pages of genealogical work that he spent his whole life working on.
Good luck,
R.A.Ricci

Comentario

Actually there are TONS of other excellent sources for Ornelas genealogy which I didn’t mention. Sorry my notes are all scattered about. I have the exact Ornelas chapter in Felgueiras Gaio’s Nobiliario that you are mentioning…I found it a few years ago. It’s in Volume 21, pages 185 to 188.

1. “Armorial Lusitano”: genealogía e heráldica [direcção e coordenação desta obra de Afonso Eduardo Martins Zúquete]. Edições Zairol Lda. : 1987, Lisbõa,Portugal. ORNELAS - Pgs. 405-406
2. “Famílias do Rio Grande de São Pedro : um contributo à genealogia sul-rio-grandense. Casa de Ornellas ou Dornelles” / Saul Palma Souto & Homero Corrêa Pires Dornelles; Porto Alegre, Brasil : Editora GCI, 2004.
3. “Nobiliário da Ilha da Madeira”, Volume 3 – Ornellas. Henrique Henriques de Noronha; Funchal : 1700; Edição da Revista Genealógica Brasileira “Biblioteca Genealógica Latina”. Edição de São Paulo : 1948.
4. "Nobiliário das Famílias de Portugal", Tomo Vigésimo Primeiro (XXI), ORNELLAS pgs. 185-188. Manuel José da Costa Felgueiras Gayo. - [Braga] : Agostinho de Azevedo Meirelles : Domingo de Araújo Affonso, 1938-1941 (Braga : Pax. - 17 v. : il. ; 30 cm.) - Impressão diplomática do original manuscrito, existente na Santa Casa da Misericórdia de Barcelos.
5. “Nobiliario del Conde de Barcelos Don Pedro, Hijo del Rey Don Dionisio de Portugal”. Juan Bautista Lavaña / Manuel de Faria y Sousa. Reproducción de la Edición de 1646, Imprenta de Alonso de Paredes—Madrid. Tamaño 21 x 30 cm., encuadernación cartoné, 593 páginas (ISBN.978-84-934288-3-9).
6. "Pedatura Lusitana (Nobiliário de famílias de Portugal)”; Tomo Terceiro – Volume Segundo; ORNELAS Pgs. 160-173; Cristóvão Alão de Morais ; pub. Alexandre António Pereira de Miranda Vasconcellos, António Augusto Ferreira da Cruz, Eugenio Eduardo Andrea da Cunha e Freitas; Livr. Fernando Machado 1943-1948 : Porto, Portugal.

----------------------------------------------
Aquí tienen algo que les servirá como “plato de botana” para Uds. que todavía no saben…si tienen el apellido Ornelas, entonces tienen sangre portuguesa. Estas son las generaciones de Ornelas que se establecieron en la “ilha da Madeira”.

Source: http://madeiragenealogy.com/sobre/familia-ornelas/
ORNELAS
Álvaro de Ornelas, filho único de Lopo Esteve de Ornelas e de Maria Ayala Sarmento, casou com Elvira Fernandes Saavedra. Viveu no tempo de D. João I. Teve:
• 2 Álvaro de Ornelas Saavedra, que segue:
• 2 João Fernandes de Ornelas, que passou à ilha Terceira (Açores).
• 2 Catarina C. c. Pedro Álvares da Câmara filho de…
Álvaro de Ornelas Saavedra passou à Madeira, por 1465. Teve terras no Caniço. C. a 1.ª vez c. Constança de Mendonça e Vasconcelos, filha de Mem Rodrigues de Vasconcelos e Catarina Furtado de Mendonça C. 2.ª vez c. Branca Fernandes de Abreu, filha de João Fernandes do Arco e Brites de Abreu. Teve do 1.º matrimónio:
• 3 Mem de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, que segue.
• 3 João de Ornelas e Vasconcelos c. c. Cecília de Moura, filha de João de Moura e Isabel ele Atouguia. t.º de Mouras. C. g.
• 3 Isabel de Vasconcelos. c. c. António Teixeira o «Rei Pequeno», título de Teixeira. C. g.
• 3 Bárbara de Mendonça c. c. Francisco de Góis., irmão de seu cunhado, t.º de Teixeiras.
Do 2.º matrimónio:
• 3 Pedro d. Ornelas de Abreu, s. g.
• 3 Jerónimo de Ornelas de Abreu, § 7.°.
• 3 António de Ornelas, s. g.
• 3 Padre Manuel de Ornelas.
• 3 João de Ornelas de Abreu c. c. Guiomar Fernandes de Almeida. C. g.
• 3 Francisca c. c. Rui Dias de Aguiar t.º de Aguiares.
Mem de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, 1.º administrador do vínculo instituído por seus pais em 1495, c. c. Helena de Góis, t.º de Teixeiras. Teve:
• 4 Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, que segue.
• 4 Brites de Góis c. c. Manuel de Castro. T.º de Castros, c. g.
• 4 Isabel de Góis c. c. Gaspar de Bitancor, filho de João de Bitancores. T.º de Bitancores.
Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, administrador do vinculo, c. c. Maria de Teive, filha de Diogo de Teive e Catarina Rodrigues. T.º de Teives. Morreu no Caniço em 1583. Teve:
• 5 Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, que segue.
• 5 Diogo de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, § 3.°.
• 5 Mem de Ornelas, que morreu na Índia.
• 5 Álvaro n. 1560 e morreu criança.
• 5 Isabel n. 1539 e morreu criança.
• 5 Maria de Teive e Vasconcelos n. 16i5 e morreu solteira em 1631.
• 5 Helena de Góis, que morreu solteira em 1585.
• 5 Constança de Mendonça, que morreu solteira em 1583.
• 5 Francisca n. 1541.
• 5 Beatriz n. 1553.
O morgado Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos c. 1.ª vez em 1573, em Câmara de Lobos, c. Maria Correia, filha de António Correia e Isabel de Bitancor (Bettancourt) t.º de Correias, s. g. C. 2.ª vez c. Maria Carrilho, filha do dr. Manuel Carrilho e Beatriz de Góis, s. g. C. 3.1. vez c. Catarina de Moura, filha de Mem de Moura e Antónia de Vasconcelos, neste título, nela de João de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, § 1.°0.° 3. Fundou em 1591 a capela da Consolação. Faleceu em 1616. Teve do último matrimónio:
• 6 Agostinho de Ornelas de Moura, que segue.
• 6 Aires de Ornelas, que morreu em Argel.
• 6 Álvaro de Ornelas Rolim e. em 1623 na Sé c. Leonor da Câmara, filha de Pedro Gonçalves da Câmara e Filipa de Abreu. Faleceu em 1637. S. g.
• 6 Luísa. c. c. Jorge da Câmara Esmeraldo, filho de Pedro Ribeiro Esmeraldo, t.º de Sanhas.
• 6 Maria. de Moura n. 1606 e c. e. Francisco Rodrigues Jardim, filho de Inácio Rodrigues Jardim e Brites Esteves.
• 6 Diogo, que n. 1605.
• 6 Francisca.
O morgado Agostinho de Ornelas e Vasconcelos c. na Sé em 1619 c. Brites Maria, filha de Gaspar Fernandes Gondim e Guiomar Simões Barreto. Faleceu em 1631 e jaz na capela de Santo António, da Catedral. Teve:
• 7 Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, que segue.
• 7 Inácio de Moura Rolim.
• 7 Antónia de Moura c. c. Brás da Câmara, t.º de Florenças. 1 Guiomar e Maria, freiras.
O morgado Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos nasceu em 1620; esteve na Baía, numa armada. C. 1.ª vez, no Brasil, c. Maria de Sande, filha de Francisco Fernandes e Catarina de Sande. 2.ª vez, na Madeira, em 1671, c. Inácia de Moura, filha de Bartolomeu Machado de Miranda e Antónia de Moura, t.º de Machados. s. g. Teve do 1.° matrim6nio:
• 8 Agostinho de Ornelas e Vasconcelos.
E bastarda:
• 8 Madre Brites da Paixão, que professou nas Mercês.
O Morgado Agostinho de Ornelas e Vasconcelos c. na Sé em 1673 c. sua prima Francisca de Moura, filha de Jorge da Câmara Esmeraldo e Luísa de Moura, t.º de Sanhas. Teve:
• 9 Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, que segue.
• 9 Francisco Xavier Ribeiro Carvalhal.
• 9 Frei Francisco de Moura, custódio do convento de S. Francisco.
• 9 Cónego Inicio de Moura.
• 9 António de Carvalhal.
• 9 Coleta, Guiomar e Antónia, freiras em Santa Clara.
• 9 Luísa e Maria, freiras na Incarnação.
O morgado Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos n. 1677 e c. em 1717 c. Cecília Maria de Aguiar, filha de Gaspar de França e Brites do Couto, 1.º de Franças. Teve:
• 10 Agostinho António de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, que segue.
• 10 Gaspar João Cabral de Ornelas, § 2.°.
• 10 António João, que faleceu criança.
• 10 Padre Francisco José de Carvalhal.
• 10 Guiomar, Maria, Francisca Cecília, Joana Leonor e Ana Vicência.
• 10 Mais cinco filhos que morreram novos.
O morgado Agostinho António de Ornelas e Vasconcelos n. 1718 e c. c. D. Joana Inácia de Carvalhal Figueiroa, filha de Diogo de Ornelas Frazão e D. Joana de Carvalhal Figueiroa, neste título § 3.º n.º 10. Faleceu em 1774. Teve:
• 11 Francisco Xavier de Ornelas e Vasconcelos.
O morgado Francisco Xavier de Ornelas e Vasconcelos c. c. D. Luísa Júlia da Câmara Leme, filha de Pedro Henriques da Câmara Leme e D. Joana Luísa. t.º de Homens Sousas. Teve:
• 12 Agostinho José de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, que segue.
• 12 Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos.
• 12 D. Joana c. 1791 na Sé c. o dr. Francisco Teixeira Dória, t.o de Teixeiras.
• 12 D. Antónia c. c. Diogo Berenguer de França, t.º de Netos.
• 12 D. Guiomar.
O morgado Agostinho José de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, tenente-Coronel, c. em 1797 c. D. Maria Joaquina de França neto, filha de Tristão Joaquim de França Neto e D. Ana Raimunda, t.º de Netos. Teve:
13 Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos.
O morgado Aires de Ornelas c Vasconcelos nasceu a. 31.9.1801 e c. 1819 c. D. Ana da Câmara Leme, filha do morgado Pedro Júlio da Câmara Leme, t.º de Homens Sousas, s. g. C. 2.ª na Sé em 1835 c. D. Augusta Martiniana Correia Vasques de Olival. filha de Pedro Anselmo de Olival e D. Ana Josefa da Costa. Teve deste casamento:
• 14 D. Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, bispo do Funchal e arcebispo de Goa, falecido em 29-11-1880.
• 14 Agostinho de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, que legue.
• 14 Pedro de Ornelas e Vasconcelos que morreu em 1861.
O morgado Agostinho de Ornelas e Vasconcelos Esmeraldo Rolim de Moura n. em 1836, foi Conselheiro e Par do Reino, Ministro Plenipotenciário, etc. C. em 24-4-1865 c. D. Maria Joaquina Saldanha da Gama, filha de João Saldanha da Gama, Conde da Ponte, e da Condessa D. Maria Teresa de Sousa Botelho Holstein. Morreu em 6-9-1901 na Alemanha. Teve:
• 15 Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, que segue.
• 15 D. Maria, religiosa de S. José de Cluny.
• 15 D. Isabel, falecida em 1926.
• 15 D. Augusta.
• 15 D. Luísa c. 1901 e. Robertus George Thomaszewski, polaco, filho de Leonel B. Thomaszewski e D. Margarida Scott. C. g.
Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos nasceu na Camacha em 1866. Oficial do Exército, político, escritor. Foi lugar-tenente de D. Manuel II. C. c. D. Maria de Jesus de Sousa Holstein, filha de D. Tomás de Sousa Holstein 1.º Marquês de Sesimbra, e da Marquesa D. Ana Zarco da Câmara. S. g. Faleceu em Lisboa em 2-12-1930.
§ 2.º
Gaspar João Cabral de Ornelas, § 1.º n.° 10, c. no Porto do Moniz em 1767 c. Filipa Maria de Sousa, filha de Manuel da Cunha Paiva e Joana de Sousa. Teve:
• 11 António Norberto de Carvalhal, que segue.
• 11 José Francisco de Carvalhal c. 179S c. Joana Narcisa. filha de Luís José do Monte Falcão.
António Norberto de Carvalhal c. c. Quitéria Narcisa, filha de Luís José do Monte Falcão e Florinda Rosa. Teve:
• 12 Antonio Norberto de Carvalhal Esmeraldo.
António Norberto de Carvalhal Esmeraldo c. na Sé 1818 c. Francisca Rosa Emília Ferreira, filha de Manuel Ferreira de Jesus e Isabel dos Santos Correia, da Ponta do Sol. Ignoro se houve descendência.
§ 3.°
Diogo de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, § 1.º n.º 5, c. 16-8-1581 c. Francisca Frazão, filha de Pedro Frazão e Maria de Gouveia. Faleceu em 1599. Teve:
• 6 Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos.
Aires de Ornelas e Vasconcelos c. a 3-2-1603 na Sé c. Catarina Pereira, filha de Pedro Gonçalves Pereira Drumond e Ana de Melo Carrilho, t.º de Ferreiras. 2.ª vez na Sé em 6-10-1614 c. c. Jerónima de Ornelas, filha de António Garcia de Gamboa e Luísa de Ornelas, neste t.º § 7.°. Do 1.° casamento:
• 7 Diogo de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, que segue.
• 7 Francisca de Vasconcelos c. c. seu primo Diogo de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, filho de Álvaro de Ornelas, de Câmara de Lobos, t.º de Castros.
• 7 Brites Frazão, falecida em 1609.
• 7 Maria e Ana de Melo.
Do 2.° casamento:
• 7 Brites de Vasconcelos c. 1648 e. Duarte Mendes de Miranda, filho de Pedro do Quental e Maria Ferreira Tavares.
• 7 Catarina de Ornelas c. c. Bernardino de Bitancor de Aguiar, filho de João de Bitancor Correia e Antónia de Castelo Branco, t.º de Correias.
• 7 Antónia de Ornelas.
Diogo de Ornelas e Vasconcelos c. 9-4-1648 c. Inácia da Câmara, filha de Fernão Teixeira de Madureira e Margarida de Perada, t: de Pestanas Velosas, por onde entrou nesta casa o morgado dos Reis Magos de Machico. Teve:
• 8 Diogo de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, que segue.
• 8 Álvaro de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, § 5.°.
• 8 Francisco de Ornelas, clérigo.
• 8 Aires de Ornelas, solteiro.
• 8 Inácia c. c. Jorge de Andrade, filho de Jorge de Andrade Correia e Joana de Menezes s. g.
Diogo de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, capitão, c. em 7-6-1673 c. Úrsula de Brito Bitancor, filha de António de Brito de Oliveira e Isabel de Atouguia, t.º de Britos Alardos. Teve:
• 9 Diogo de Ornelas Frazão, que segue.
• 9 Francisco de Ornelas c. 1106 e. Francisca Antónia de Meneses, filha de João Figueira Pinto e Maria de Meneses Bitancor. C. g. no Brasil.
• 9 Joana, freira em Santa Clara.
• 9 Isabel e Inácia.
Diogo de Ornelas Frazão nasceu em 1648 e c. em 24-1-1712 c. D. Joana de Carvalhal, filha de José de Carvalhal Figueiroa e de sua 1.ª mulher D. Joana Francisca Esmeraldo, t.º de Amis. Morreu em 15-6-1750. Teve:
• 10 Diogo Ornelas Frazão Figueiroa, que segue.
• 10 Aires de Ornelas c. c. Maria Thips, inglesa. C. g.
• 10 Francisco de Ornelas Carvalhal Bitancor.
• 10 Frei José de Sant’Ana.
• 10 Cónego João Frazão de Ornelas.
• 10 D. Joana Inácia c. c. Agostinho António de Ornelas e Vasconcelos, neste t.º § 1.° n.º 10. C. g.
• 10 D. Úrsula Quitéria do Amor Divino, D. Ana Joaquina e D. Maria, freiras.
Diogo de Ornelas Frazão Figueiroa c. em S. Pedro a 3-6-1756 c. D. Isabel Maria de Brito Bitancor, filha de António de Brito de Oliveira e D. Joana Rafaela de Ponte Fiesco, t.º de Britos Alardos. Teve:
• 11 Diogo de Ornelas Frazão Carvalhal, que segue.
• 11 João Venâncio de Ornelas § 4.°.
• 11 D. Joana Francisca de Carvalhal c. Gaula 1784 c. António Joaquim de Vasconcelos, filho de Francisco João da Silva e Vasconcelos. C. g.
• 11 D. Isabel Maria c. c. João José Cabral de Ornelas, filho de Francisco de Ornelas Cabral, t.º de Soares Pais C. g.
Diogo de Ornelas Frazão Carvalhal c. c. D. Antónia de Carvalhal, filha de João de Carvalhal Esmeraldo de Atouguia e Câmara e D. Isabel da Câmara Leme, t.º de Sanhas. Teve:
• 12 Diogo de Ornelas de Carvalhal Frazão, que segue.
• 12 D. Carlota c. c. Francisco João de Vasconcelos, filho de António Joaquim de Vasconcelos. C. g.
• 12 D. Ana c. 1835 c. António Maria de Moura Coutinho, filho de Rodrigo de Moura Coutinho e D. Maria Clara.
• 12 D. Matilde c. 1819 c. Aires de Ornelas Cisneiros, neste t.º § 5.°.
• 12 D. Umbelina, solteira, falecida em 1857.
Diogo de Ornelas de Carvalhal Frazão c. no Estreito da Calheta, em 1812, c. D. Ana Emília de França Dória, filha do morgado Bartolomeu de França Dória e Andrade e de Rosa Maria de Sousa, com quem se diz ter casado fora da ilha. Por aqui entrou nesta casa o morgado dos Franças. Teve:
• 13 Diogo de Ornelas França Carvalhal Frazão que segue:
• 13 Luís de Ornelas c. 1856 c. Juliana Antónia Cunha, filha de Manuel Pereira da Cunha e Antónia Maria de França.
• 13 D. Ermelinda.
Teve bastardo:
• 13 Augusto dos Prazeres de Ornelas c. 1836 c. Maria Carolina, filha de João Alexandre da Silva e Maria Niper. C. g.
Diogo de Ornelas França Carvalhal Frazão Figueiroa n. 29.8-1812. Teve os títulos de Visconde e Conde da Calçada e administrou vários vínculos. Foi governador civil do Funchal e presidente da Câmara. C. em 1831 c. D. Carlota de Albuquerque filha de João Figueiroa de Freitas Albuquerque e D. Carlota Dias de Ornelas. Morreu a 18-9-1906. Teve:
• 14 Bartolomeu de Ornelas Frazão, que segue.
• 14 Diogo de Ornelas Frazão, que teve B. de Maria de Jesus, de Santa Cruz:
• 15 D. Carlota c. c. o major Sardinha, do Estreito. C. g.
• 14 Fernando de Ornelas Frazão

Read full comment ➜

Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Vie, 2014-04-18 16:44 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

This is my wife's line to Charlemagne through Alvaro Ornelas. The issue I have is he the son of Guiomar De Bettencourt Freitas or is he the son from the second wife Antonia de Vasconcellos. I am assuming the second wife but am not positive since there is Vasconcellos in the Ornelas line a couple generations back.
Both of my parents and both of my wives parents descend from Alvaro Ornelas.

Jose Marquez b: 1663
Diego Marquez b: 1620
Maria de Ornelas y Hurtado de Mendoza, b: 1595

Alvaro III de Ornelas e de Vasconcellos, 12th Conde D'Ornelas b: 1561 is he the son of Guiomar De Bettencourt Freitas or is he the son from the second wife Antonia de Vasconcellos. I am assuming the second wife but am not positive since there is Vasconcellos in the Ornelas line a couple generations back. I was hoping that it was the Bettencourt since I compiled much of their genealogy when I was studying my Braquemont ancestry and found their lives very interesting.

Mem de Ornelas e de Moura, b: 1530 + which wife?

João de Ornelas e Furtado de Mendoça, b: 1502 + Cecilia de Moura (Cecilia's maternal grandfather, Luis de Atouguia is the treasurer to the King). ( Cecilia's paternal Grandfather, Rolim de Moura, is a hunter for King Manuel)
The Moura men have a long history of working for their king, including ambassador to Castilla.

Alvaro II Alvarez, Sr. D'Ornelas b: 1456, died 11/Jan/1526 + Constanza de Mendoza de Vasconcellos
A

Thank you
R.A.Ricci

Published by R.A.Ricci (no verificado) – Dom, 2014-04-13 00:22 | Enlace permanente

Comentario

This Alvaro Ornelas line has different information than the other one you posted. Since this one is posted later does this mean that this is the one you have settled on and what information do you have to make the changes.

Thanks,
R.A.Ricci

Comentario

Hi Daniel or should I say Hi Primo Daniel...

This is just one of my linking with Charlemagne... down to my Portuguese ancestors that settled on the island of Madeira. In the coming week I'll check out where our branches took a different path ending with us... ;-)...

Prima Pat Silva Corbera

Here's my connection to Charlemagne (0742)
Pepin I and IV
Bernard (Bernhard)
Pepino II de Peronne
Herbert (Hubert)I de Vermandois
Herbert II
Roberto I
Adelaide de Vermandois
Ermengarda Gerberge
Judith
Robert I
William I
Henry I Beauclerc
Matilde Maud
Henry II Plantagenet
Alienor Plantagenet
Bernegaria
Ferdinand III
Alfonso X
Sancho IV
Teresa Sanches
Maria Rodriguez de Vilalobos
Guiomar Lopes Pacheco
Joao Afonso Telo Menezes
Maria de Menezes
Joao Alvares Pereira
Vasco Pereira
Diogo Pereira
Isabel Pereira
Ines Barreto de Menezes
Vasco Martins Moniz
Ines Moniz
Guiomar Moniz
Ines Alvares da Rua
Branca de Atouguia
Rodrigo Alvares de Costa
Leonor de Atouguia da Costa
Jorge Pinto da Costa
Isabel de Amil
Joao Barreto
Agueda Cesar Abreu Andrade
Jacome Cesar de Lira
Agueda Cesar e Lira
Pedro Homem d'El-Rei
Ana Delfina Cesar
Ana Cesar Ferreira
Maria Augusta Jardim Rodrigues
Antonio da Silva Se'
Maria Madelina da Silva Se'
Patricia Julia Silva (1942)

-------------- Original message --------------
From: mormonboy74

>
> I only descend from Charlamagne on both of my parent's sides, not Muhammad "the
> prophet".
>
> Here is my first connection
>
> Daniel M

Comentario

Hi Patricia! This is interesting, you alfo descend from Sancho I of Portugal, Ime too! Im thinking ere related about 100 times. THe Ornelas lines came from Madeira to México in 1570's. THey came to Madeira arcound 1470 or so. There's a funny fasct, everyone on Madeira is related! I think it was 7 or 12 families that arrive and colonized it. I dont know that much on the Silvas, but do know some history. It looks like their primary Royal House is Aragon. The first silva was Pedro Paés da Silva born in 1092. They owned a tower or castle because he title was senhor da honra de torre da silva. Lord of the Tower/castle of Silva. There are two branches the Portuguese which broke off ca. 1250?

até a próxima vez, seu primo

Daniel Mendés del Camino

_________________________________________________________________
Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give.
http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/?source=text_hotmail_join

Comentario

Hi Daniel,

Thank you for the added info... I'll continue our exchange "in private e-mails.." Pat

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Daniel Mendez

>
> Hi Patricia! This is interesting, you alfo descend from Sancho I of Portugal,
> Ime too! Im thinking ere related about 100 times. THe Ornelas lines came from
> Madeira to M

Comentario

Here's Pat's onnection to Charlemagne (0742) and then her connection to me

Pepin I and IV
Bernard (Bernhard)
Pepino II de Peronne
Herbert (Hubert)I de Vermandois
Herbert II
Roberto I
Adelaide de Vermandois
Ermengarda Gerberge
Judith
Robert I
William I
Henry I Beauclerc
Matilde Maud
Henry II Plantagenet
Alienor Plantagenet
Bernegaria
Ferdinand III
Alfonso X
Sancho IV
Teresa Sanches
Maria Rodriguez de Vilalobos
Guiomar Lopes Pacheco
Joao Afonso Telo Menezes
Maria de Menezes
Joao Alvares Pereira
Vasco Pereira
Diogo Pereira
Isabel Pereira
Ines Barreto de Menezes
Vasco Martins MoInes Moniz
Ines Moniz
Guiomar Moniz
Ines Alvares da Rua + Luis Atouguia (the Kings treasurer)
Branca de Atouguia. (Sister to Isabel Atouguia) $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$&$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Rodrigo Alvares de Costa
Leonor de Atouguia da Costa
Jorge Pinto da Costa
Isabel de Amil
Joao Barreto
Agueda Cesar Abreu Andrade
Jacome Cesar de Lira
Agueda Cesar e Lira
Pedro Homem d'El-Rei
Ana Delfina Cesar
Ana Cesar Ferreira
Maria Augusta Jardim Rodrigues
Antonio da Silva Se'
Maria Madelina da Silva Se'
Patricia Julia Silva (1942)

Tlaltenango Marriages 1600s

Published by arturoramos –
Foros
Genealogy Research

I have begun to systematically go through film 0443967 (Tlaltenango Matrimonios 1626-1723) since the film is not indexed. I am up to about 1642 now and about 80-90% of the marriages are for Indios with no surnames. However, there are a few indios with surnames and a few Spanish marriages interspersed there and I imagine that will increase as I go further in time on the film.

Comentarios

Comentario

As I describe on my web page at

https://www.wwjohnston.net/famhist/tlaltenagomarriages1704-1713problem…

there are many marriages in the period 1704-1713 that are omitted from the book.

So, I am very slowly working my way through the online images and posting all of the missing marriages at

https://www.wwjohnston.net/famhist/tlaltenagomarriages1704-1713.htm

Wesley Johnston

Comentario

Jorge Campos Lamas
Defunción de Da. Ysabel Soto Almeida.

SOTO ALMEIDA doña Isabel DE, falleció en la villa de Jerez el 2 de noviembre de 1697, viuda del Capitán Juan de Chávez, adminsitrele los santos sacramentos como teniente de Cura. Hizo testamento que pasó ante el Capitán don Manuel Hurtado de Mendoza, teniente de Alcalde Mayor de la villa de Jerez, deja la disposición de su entierro a la voluntad de sus albaceas que lo fueron Pedro y Francisco de Chávez, sus hijos y así mismo herederos, a los dichos con las demás sus hermanas, a la Cofradía del Santísimo Sacramento los quince ducados de Castilla, a las mandas forzosas a dos reales y a la casa Santa cuatro reales, no dejo otro legado pío, enterrose en Nuestra Iglesia parroquial con entierro mayor, y misa de cuerpo presente y para que conste lo firmé. Lorenzo Carrillo Dávila. Rúbrica. Al margen: los15 ducados. Cofrada. Derechos de fábrica - 19 p 2. Foja: 4 vuelta

Comentario

She is one of my ancestresses. Marge:)

On Jul 20, 2010, at 6:55 PM, jcampos@cmt-mexico.com wrote:

Jorge Campos Lamas
Defunción de Da. Ysabel Soto Almeida.

SOTO ALMEIDA doña Isabel DE, falleció en la villa de Jerez el 2 de
noviembre de 1697, viuda del Capitán Juan de Chávez, adminsitrele los
santos sacramentos como teniente de Cura. Hizo testamento que pasó
ante el Capitán don Manuel Hurtado de Mendoza, teniente de Alcalde
Mayor de la villa de Jerez, deja la disposición de su entierro a la
voluntad de sus albaceas que lo fueron Pedro y Francisco de Chávez,
sus hijos y así mismo herederos, a los dichos con las demás sus
hermanas, a la Cofradía del Santísimo Sacramento los quince ducados de
Castilla, a las mandas forzosas a dos reales y a la casa Santa cuatro
reales, no dejo otro legado pío, enterrose en Nuestra Iglesia
parroquial con entierro mayor, y misa de cuerpo presente y para que
conste lo firmé. Lorenzo Carrillo Dávila. Rúbrica. Al margen: los15
ducados. Cofrada. Derechos de fábrica - 19 p 2. Foja: 4 vuelta

Comentario

Gus Meza

Arturo

If you would be so kind to keep an eye for a marriage in the vicinity of 1720 or so for Nicolas Miramontes and Juana de Sandoval in Tllaltenango.

They are the parents of Lorenso de Miramontes who married Agueda de Jesus Gonsales Llamas and were married 14 Jan 1741 in Tlaltenango. Mateo de Llamas and Maria Gonsales were the parents of Agueda de Jesus Llamas.

Thanks for your offer for assistance.

Gus

Comentario

Gus et al:

Before the local family history center closed for remodeling in June, I had just gotten up to about 1700 on extracting the early Tlaltenango marriage records. There is still about a quarter of the film left to go so I imagine that is where the later year marriages are, though I know that the film skips whole decades and then goes back and forth. I think the latter part of the film and the beginning part of the next film are remnants of books which encompass the late 1600s and early 1700s. Hopefully there are not too many years missing between the two.

Most of what I have is in the GEDCOM database and I have begun compiling the information for publication with a name index. I will have to decide whether to wait to finish going through the whole film before publishing or publishing what I have to date. I also would like to put together genealogies of the earliest families, i.e. Haro, Miramontes, Vergara, Covarrubias, Bugarin, etc.

If anybody is interested in collaborating on such a project, please let me know.

Comentario

Hola Arturo,

I'm a direct descendant of the first family's of Tlaltenango, Miramontes, aka Haros, Luna, Lamas, Esquivel, etc, I'll be very glad to share what i have with you, you can contact me directly.
Anna arellano Smith

arturoramos wrote:

Gus et al:

Before the local family history center closed for remodeling in June, I had just gotten up to about 1700 on extracting the early Tlaltenango marriage records. There is still about a quarter of the film left to go so I imagine that is where the later year marriages are, though I know that the film skips whole decades and then goes back and forth. I think the latter part of the film and the beginning part of the next film are remnants of books which encompass the late 1600s and early 1700s. Hopefully there are not too many years missing between the two.

Most of what I have is in the GEDCOM database and I have begun compiling the information for publication with a name index. I will have to decide whether to wait to finish going through the whole film before publishing or publishing what I have to date. I also would like to put together genealogies of the earliest families, i.e. Haro, Miramontes, Vergara, Covarrubias, Bugarin, etc.

If anybody is interested in collaborating on such a project, please let me know.

Comentario

Hi Anna...

You mentioned Luna family....I am a Luna from Tlaltenango area...I have
gotten "stuck" with my research regarding that surname....to the early
1800's....would you mind sharing with our whole board what you have? Many of us have
been able to make family connections because we have uploaded our trees on to
this site!

Esperanza
Chicagoland area

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

Comentario

Hi Esperanza,
My Lunas from the 1800's are in my file, they married into my Arellano's, I do however have the entire line of luna's going back to the early 1600's but have not been able to upload my file, I don't know what i am doing wrong. I descend from Bartolome De Luna, son of Francisco De Luna and Maria De tapia, i have some info on His brother Luis De Luna going forward to early 1700's, my line of Luna's in the 1800 's were already in El Teul and Tepechitlan. Let me know if I can help.
Anna

Latina1955@aol.com wrote:
Hi Anna...

You mentioned Luna family....I am a Luna from Tlaltenango area...I have
gotten "stuck" with my research regarding that surname....to the early
1800's....would you mind sharing with our whole board what you have? Many of us have
been able to make family connections because we have uploaded our trees on to
this site!

Esperanza
Chicagoland area

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

Comentario

Anna:

Have you seen this marriage record which lists Francisco Luna with his sister-in-law as padrinos? What is the source that you have for Bartholome's parents' names?

1642-11-20
Antonio López de la O español con María Pérez vecinos de dicho pueblo [de Tlaltenango]. Padrinos: Francisco Luna y Catalina Jiménez, su cuñada.

Comentario

Anna:

Also, I remember reading somewhere that the Tapias, like the Haros were descendants of Pedro de Bobadilla, original encomendero of Tepechitlan.

There is a marriage register of Bartholome de Luna y Tapia, marrying a daughter of Hernando de Haro and Cecilia Lopez, which indicates they were cousins and would seem to support this theory:

1659-01-08
Cuarto grado de parentesco con dispensación. Bartholomé de Luna y Tapia, español soltero con Doña Lorenza Ortiz de San Pedro, española vuida. Padrinos Ignacio Rubio de Loyola y Isabel Tello, su mujer. Testigos Alonzo ___, Juana de Reyes y Pedro Jiménez, todos españoles y vecinos del partido.

Comentario

Arturo,
Thank very much for the info, i do have that record but it does not clarify the relationship, i look up the book that Hilton published on the dispensation's of the sagrada mitra, but there is no entry for this couple, my source for the relationship of Bartolome De Luna and Francisco De Luna is the marriage record of Luis De Luna his brother, by the way Luis De Luna married Lorenza's sister, Josepha Ortiz De Aro, her mother Cecilia De Lopez was actually, Ortiz De San Pedro, i have no idea where de Lopez came from.
Saludos,
Anna

arturoramos wrote:

Anna:

Also, I remember reading somewhere that the Tapias, like the Haros were descendants of Pedro de Bobadilla, original encomendero of Tepechitlan.

There is a marriage register of Bartholome de Luna y Tapia, marrying a daughter of Hernando de Haro and Cecilia Lopez, which indicates they were cousins and would seem to support this theory:

1659-01-08
Cuarto grado de parentesco con dispensación. Bartholomé de Luna y Tapia, español soltero con Doña Lorenza Ortiz de San Pedro, española vuida. Padrinos Ignacio Rubio de Loyola y Isabel Tello, su mujer. Testigos Alonzo ___, Juana de Reyes y Pedro Jiménez, todos españoles y vecinos del partido.

Comentario

Anna:

As you have probably figured out reading 17th Century marriage records from Mexico, it was very common for people to take their maternal last names and in fact sometimes even the last name of a grandparent not shared by either of their parents.

For example, Cecilia Lopez's husband, Hernando de Haro was the son of Juan de Miramontes and Maria de Haro y Saucedo. I believe that his mother's Saucedo comes from her grandmother who was also Maria de Saucedo and was married to Pedro de Bobadilla.

Likewise Cecilia Lopez's brothers took their father's surname, i.e. Ortiz de San Pedro, but she took another name, perhaps her mother's?... I don't have her mother's name anywhere... do you? Or perhaps even a grandmother. I have anecdotally found that children were often named for a grandparent and they were given the ENTIRE name, including surname of the grandparent. For girls, this would often imply giving them the surname of their maternal grandmother!

BTW, what was the date of Luis Luna's wedding?

Comentario

Cecilia's mothers name was Maria De Esquivel, she appears several times in the baptismal records of the early 1600's, in the priest notes He mentions her as the mother of Cecilia DE Lopez.

arturoramos wrote:
Anna:

As you have probably figured out reading 17th Century marriage records from Mexico, it was very common for people to take their maternal last names and in fact sometimes even the last name of a grandparent not shared by either of their parents.

For example, Cecilia Lopez's husband, Hernando de Haro was the son of Juan de Miramontes and Maria de Haro y Saucedo. I believe that his mother's Saucedo comes from her grandmother who was also Maria de Saucedo and was married to Pedro de Bobadilla.

Likewise Cecilia Lopez's brothers took their father's surname, i.e. Ortiz de San Pedro, but she took another name, perhaps her mother's?... I don't have her mother's name anywhere... do you? Or perhaps even a grandmother. I have anecdotally found that children were often named for a grandparent and they were given the ENTIRE name, including surname of the grandparent. For girls, this would often imply giving them the surname of their maternal grandmother!

BTW, what was the date of Luis Luna's wedding?

Comentario

Wow...I had no idea that my Luna side of the family could have been among
the first settlers! I was beginning to think that they had come from another
area...The last information I was able to personally verify was Doroteo Luna
who was born in 1819 and married Antonia Atanacia Salas in 1839. Another
member indicated that Doroteo's father was Mauricio Luna who married Guadalupe
Magallanes.
Doroteo and Antonia had the following children:
...Juana Maria Bautista Luna Salas
...Felix Luna married in 1851 Maria de los Angeles Trejo DOB:85/1829
......Antanacio Luna: DOB: 8/15/1855 married Maria Florencia Herrera Corchado
.....Gregorio Luna DOB: 3/1885
.....Maria de la Cruz Luna
.....Pedro Luna: DOB 10/1877
.....Manuel Luna DOB:11/22/1888 married Norberta Herrera Yniguez
.....Epigmenio Luna DOB:11/1900
.....Maria Soledad Luna
.....

So, if I am understanding you correctly, it appears that paort of the De
Luna family from Tlaltenango migrated to El Teul and Tepechitlan?

It would be absolutely amazing if we can make a connection!

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

Comentario

Anna:

Thank you for that very useful piece of information. I have not looked at the oldest Tlaltenango baptism film, since it is indexed... I was lazy but I bet there is lots of useful information in there. The Maria de Equivel name would explain daughters of Cecilia Lopez and Hernando Haro having the name Esquivel as well... another generation skipping surname. I would venture to bet that Maria de Esquivel's mother or perhaps Pedro Ortiz de San Pedro's mother was named Cecilia Lopez and she was named after her grandmother.

BTW, I see Luis de Luna's marriage on 10 April 1649, where it states his father is Francisco de Luna. If you don't mind me further askind, where did you get that Bartholome is his brother and that their mother was Maria de Tapia?

Luis de Luna, soltero con Josepha de Esquivel, doncella, españoles vecinos de este pueblo. Fue madrina Ana de López sola por estar ausente su marido Lázaro Ortiz de San Pedro que ha de ser el padrino de la velación y testigos el bachiller Juan Gallardo, Felipe Días de Santiago, padrastro de la desposada, Francisco de Luna padre del desposado y el Capitan Jacinto León Coronado e Igancio Rubio, vecinos de este pueblo.

Comentario

Gus:

You had asked a while back to keep my eye opened for a marriage in Tlaltenango between a Nicolas de Miramontes and a Juana de Sandoval. I found one between a Nicolas de Miramontes and a Juana Gonzalez... probably the same Nicolas, perhaps a different wife...

1715-03-04 Nicolás de Miramontes hijo legítimo de Lorenzo de Miramontes y de Ana Díaz, difuntos, con Juana González hija legítima de Juan González y de María Carrillo españoles y vecinos de esta feligresía. Testigos Joseph Martínez y Juan Salvador.

Comentario

Does anyone know any of the other children of Lorenzo de Miramontes and
Ana Diaz?

No estoy seguro pero los nombres suenan,

joseph

====================

Joseph Puentes
http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
http://H2Opodcast.com (Environment Podcast)
http://H2Opodcast.blogspot.com/ (Blog for above)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)

arturoramos wrote:
> Gus:
>
> You had asked a while back to keep my eye opened for a marriage in Tlaltenango between a Nicolas de Miramontes and a Juana de Sandoval. I found one between a Nicolas de Miramontes and a Juana Gonzalez... probably the same Nicolas, perhaps a different wife...
>
> 1715-03-04 Nicolás de Miramontes hijo legítimo de Lorenzo de Miramontes y de Ana Díaz, difuntos, con Juana González hija legítima de Juan González y de María Carrillo españoles y vecinos de esta feligresía. Testigos Joseph Martínez y Juan Salvador.
>
>

Comentario

Hello Jospeh, I have the following names in my info. For Lorenzo Miramontes & Ana Diaz

Gus, I found some children of Nicolas and Ana Diaz...

MARGARITA MIRAMONTES DIAS
Pedigree

Female

Event(s):

Birth:

Christening:

02 SEP 1670
Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

Death:

Burial:

Parents:

Father:
LORENZO DE MIRAMONTES
Family

Mother:
ANA DIAS DE SANTIAGO

Messages:

Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Source Information:

Batch No.:
Dates:
Source Call No.:
Type:
Printout Call No.:
Type:

C600891
1630 - 1676
0443799
Film
NONE

Sheet: 00

MIGUEL MIRAMONTES SANTIAGO
Pedigree

Male

Event(s):

Birth:

Christening:

28 FEB 1696
Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

Death:

Burial:

Parents:

Father:
LORENSO MIRAMONTES
Family

Mother:
ANA DE SANTIAGO

Messages:

Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Source Information:

Batch No.:
Dates:
Source Call No.:
Type:
Printout Call No.:
Type:

C600892
1691 - 1704
0443800
Film
NONE

Sheet: 00

GETRUDIS MIRAMONTEZ SANTIAGO
Pedigree

Female

Event(s):

Birth:

Christening:

05 JUN 1692
Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

Death:

Burial:

Parents:

Father:
LORENZO DE MIRAMONTEZ
Family

Mother:
ANA DE SANTIAGO

Messages:

Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Source Information:

Batch No.:
Dates:
Source Call No.:
Type:
Printout Call No.:
Type:

C600892
1691 - 1704
0443800
Film
NONE

Sheet: 00

BRIGIDA DE MIRAMONTES
Pedigree

Female

Family

Event(s):

Birth:

Christening:

Death:

Burial:

Parents:

Father:
LORENZO DE MIRAMONTES
Family

Mother:
ANA DE SANTIAGO

Marriages:

Spouse:
X. DE MIRAMONTES
Family

Marriage:

02 JUL 1704
Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

Messages:

Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.

Source Information:

Batch No.:
Dates:
Source Call No.:
Type:
Printout Call No.:
Type:

M607139
1704 - 1754
0443968
Film
NONE

Sheet: 00
-Daniel Mendez del Camino
_________________________________________________________________
More photos; more messages; more whatever – Get MORE with Windows Live™ Hotmail®. NOW with 5GB storage.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_mig…

Comentario

thanks Daniel no connection yet but I'm going to look at what I have
closer in the near future as I haven't examined it in a while.

thanks again for this info.

joseph

====================

Joseph Puentes
http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
http://H2Opodcast.com (Environment Podcast)
http://H2Opodcast.blogspot.com/ (Blog for above)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)

Daniel Mendez wrote:
> Hello Jospeh, I have the following names in my info. For Lorenzo Miramontes & Ana Diaz
>
> Gus, I found some children of Nicolas and Ana Diaz...
>
>
>

Comentario

Joseph I also found another one:

IGI Individual Record
FamilySearch™ International Genealogical Index v5.0

Mexico

Search Results | Download

YSIDRO DE MIRAMONTES
Pedigree

Male

Family

Event(s):

Birth:

Christening:

Death:

Burial:

Parents:

Father:
LORENSO DE MIRAMONTES
Family

Mother:
MARIA DE SANTIAGO

Marriages:

Spouse:
BERNARDA DE AVILA
Family

Marriage:

21 JAN 1709
Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

Messages:

Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.

Source Information:

Batch No.:
Dates:
Source Call No.:
Type:
Printout Call No.:
Type:

M607139
1704 - 1754
0443968
Film
NONE

Sheet: 00-Daniel M.d.C.
_________________________________________________________________
More photos; more messages; more whatever – Get MORE with Windows Live™ Hotmail®. NOW with 5GB storage.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_mig…

Comentario

This is what I have on Nicolas and Juana Sandoval.
LORENSO DE MIRAMONTES
Pedigree

Male

Family

Event(s):

Birth:

Christening:

Death:

Burial:

Parents:

Father:
NICOLAS DE MIRAMONTES
Family

Mother:
JUANA DE SANDOBAL

Marriages:

Spouse:
AGUEDA DE JESUS DE LLAMAS
Family

Marriage:

14 JAN 1741
Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

Messages:

Extracted marriage record for locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the marriage date.

Source Information:

Batch No.:
Dates:
Source Call No.:
Type:
Printout Call No.:
Type:

M607139
1704 - 1754
0443968
Film
NONE

Sheet: 00

This is what I have on Nicolas and Juana Gonzalez

ALONZO MIRAMONTES GONSALES
Pedigree

Male

Event(s):

Birth:

Christening:

02 JUN 1716
Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

Death:

Burial:

Parents:

Father:
NICOLAS DE MIRAMONTES
Family

Mother:
JUANA GONSALES

Messages:

Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Source Information:

Batch No.:
Dates:
Source Call No.:
Type:
Printout Call No.:
Type:

C600893
1704 - 1718
0443801
Film
NONE

Sheet: 00

-Daniel Mendez del Camino
_________________________________________________________________
Can you find the hidden words?  Take a break and play Seekadoo!
http://club.live.com/seekadoo.aspx?icid=seek_wlmailtextlink

Comentario

I'm a descendant of Pedro de Chabes Bañuelos and Agueda Olague; it's
possible that his father was also a Pedro de Chabes Bañuelos. Could
you send me the info on that couple in 1637 below? I'd surely
appreciate it. Marge:)
On Apr 10, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Arturo Ramos wrote:

> I have begun to systematically go through film 0443967 (Tlaltenango
> Matrimonios 1626-1723) since the film is not indexed. I am up to
> about 1642 now and about 80-90% of the marriages are for Indios with
> no surnames. However, there are a few indios with surnames and a few
> Spanish marriages interspersed there and I imagine that will increase
> as I go further in time on the film.
>
> If anybody has any families/lineages that they want me to keep an eye
> open for while I do this, please let me know.
>
> I have run across the following thus far. If you would like further
> details on any of these marriages let me know.
>
> 1629 Juan Garcia de Miramontes con Ana de Lopez
> 1629 Pablo de Ortiz con Ynez de Saucedo
> 1630 Juan de Frias Vandal con Alfonsina de la Paz
> 1630 Manuel Diaz con Maria Ruiz
> 1632 Jacintro de Lamas con Mariana Rodriguez
> 1632 Juan de Isabel Pinedo con Juana de Castro
> 1632 Antonio de Ribera con Maria de Solis
> 1633 Gerardo Cardosso con Catalina de Haro
> 1633 Pablo Flores de la Torre con Clara de Miramontes
> 1634 Juan de Vera con Maria de Miramontes
> 1634 Juan Sanchez con Tomasina Saucedo
> 1634 Juan Gallardo con Maria Delgado
> 1636 Rodrigo de Castro con Francisca de Rodas
> 1637 Pedro de Chabes Banuelos con Catalina de Haro
> 1638 Benito Gonzalez con Mariana Lopez
> 1638 Juan Ruiz con Marta de Bobadilla
> 1638 Francisco de Guzman con Catalina Gonzalez
> 1639 Gerardo de Lamas con Leonor Ortiz
> 1642 Antonio Lopez de la O con Maria Perez
> 1644 Joseph Munoz con Maria Cid
> 1644 Nicolas Perez con Gertrudis de Haro

Comentario

Margarita,

I have 2 dispensas that give the parents name for Pedro Chavez Bañuelos.
they are Juan Chavez Banuelos and Ysabel Soto Almeida. Pedro is my descendant also. I also have a death date for his mother 2 Nov 1697 in Jerez, Zac.
Would be glad to send you copies if you like.

Sally

Margarita Vallazza wrote:
I'm a descendant of Pedro de Chabes Bañuelos and Agueda Olague; it's
possible that his father was also a Pedro de Chabes Bañuelos. Could
you send me the info on that couple in 1637 below? I'd surely
appreciate it. Marge:)
On Apr 10, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Arturo Ramos wrote:

> I have begun to systematically go through film 0443967 (Tlaltenango
> Matrimonios 1626-1723) since the film is not indexed. I am up to
> about 1642 now and about 80-90% of the marriages are for Indios with
> no surnames. However, there are a few indios with surnames and a few
> Spanish marriages interspersed there and I imagine that will increase
> as I go further in time on the film.
>
> If anybody has any families/lineages that they want me to keep an eye
> open for while I do this, please let me know.
>
> I have run across the following thus far. If you would like further
> details on any of these marriages let me know.
>
> 1629 Juan Garcia de Miramontes con Ana de Lopez
> 1629 Pablo de Ortiz con Ynez de Saucedo
> 1630 Juan de Frias Vandal con Alfonsina de la Paz
> 1630 Manuel Diaz con Maria Ruiz
> 1632 Jacintro de Lamas con Mariana Rodriguez
> 1632 Juan de Isabel Pinedo con Juana de Castro
> 1632 Antonio de Ribera con Maria de Solis
> 1633 Gerardo Cardosso con Catalina de Haro
> 1633 Pablo Flores de la Torre con Clara de Miramontes
> 1634 Juan de Vera con Maria de Miramontes
> 1634 Juan Sanchez con Tomasina Saucedo
> 1634 Juan Gallardo con Maria Delgado
> 1636 Rodrigo de Castro con Francisca de Rodas
> 1637 Pedro de Chabes Banuelos con Catalina de Haro
> 1638 Benito Gonzalez con Mariana Lopez
> 1638 Juan Ruiz con Marta de Bobadilla
> 1638 Francisco de Guzman con Catalina Gonzalez
> 1639 Gerardo de Lamas con Leonor Ortiz
> 1642 Antonio Lopez de la O con Maria Perez
> 1644 Joseph Munoz con Maria Cid
> 1644 Nicolas Perez con Gertrudis de Haro

Comentario

Please do, Sally, I would love to have it...thank you so much. I think
you and I are both descended from Pedro Bañuelos Chaves and Agueda de
Olague but their son Francisco and his wife, Clara Reyes, are my
ancestors. Thanks again! Marge:)
On Apr 28, 2006, at 3:52 PM, Sally Quinones wrote:

> Margarita,
>
> I have 2 dispensas that give the parents name for Pedro Chavez
> Bañuelos.
> they are Juan Chavez Banuelos and Ysabel Soto Almeida. Pedro is my
> descendant also. I also have a death date for his mother 2 Nov 1697 in
> Jerez, Zac.
> Would be glad to send you copies if you like.
>
> Sally
>
> Margarita Vallazza wrote:
> I'm a descendant of Pedro de Chabes Bañuelos and Agueda Olague; it's
> possible that his father was also a Pedro de Chabes Bañuelos. Could
> you send me the info on that couple in 1637 below? I'd surely
> appreciate it. Marge:)
> On Apr 10, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Arturo Ramos wrote:
>
>> I have begun to systematically go through film 0443967 (Tlaltenango
>> Matrimonios 1626-1723) since the film is not indexed. I am up to
>> about 1642 now and about 80-90% of the marriages are for Indios with
>> no surnames. However, there are a few indios with surnames and a few
>> Spanish marriages interspersed there and I imagine that will increase
>> as I go further in time on the film.
>>
>> If anybody has any families/lineages that they want me to keep an eye
>> open for while I do this, please let me know.
>>
>> I have run across the following thus far. If you would like further
>> details on any of these marriages let me know.
>>
>> 1629 Juan Garcia de Miramontes con Ana de Lopez
>> 1629 Pablo de Ortiz con Ynez de Saucedo
>> 1630 Juan de Frias Vandal con Alfonsina de la Paz
>> 1630 Manuel Diaz con Maria Ruiz
>> 1632 Jacintro de Lamas con Mariana Rodriguez
>> 1632 Juan de Isabel Pinedo con Juana de Castro
>> 1632 Antonio de Ribera con Maria de Solis
>> 1633 Gerardo Cardosso con Catalina de Haro
>> 1633 Pablo Flores de la Torre con Clara de Miramontes
>> 1634 Juan de Vera con Maria de Miramontes
>> 1634 Juan Sanchez con Tomasina Saucedo
>> 1634 Juan Gallardo con Maria Delgado
>> 1636 Rodrigo de Castro con Francisca de Rodas
>> 1637 Pedro de Chabes Banuelos con Catalina de Haro
>> 1638 Benito Gonzalez con Mariana Lopez
>> 1638 Juan Ruiz con Marta de Bobadilla
>> 1638 Francisco de Guzman con Catalina Gonzalez
>> 1639 Gerardo de Lamas con Leonor Ortiz
>> 1642 Antonio Lopez de la O con Maria Perez
>> 1644 Joseph Munoz con Maria Cid
>> 1644 Nicolas Perez con Gertrudis de Haro

Comentario

Margarita,

Please send me your address to my e-mail as I have no other way of sending you this information. I will send you everthing I have on Pedro Chavez Bañuelos.
I also have a dispensa that I think may be Pedro's grandparents but have'nt 100% proof yet. I'll send that also. My ancestors are also Francisco Chavez and Clara de los Reyes.

Sally

Margarita Vallazza wrote:
Please do, Sally, I would love to have it...thank you so much. I think
you and I are both descended from Pedro Bañuelos Chaves and Agueda de
Olague but their son Francisco and his wife, Clara Reyes, are my
ancestors. Thanks again! Marge:)
On Apr 28, 2006, at 3:52 PM, Sally Quinones wrote:

> Margarita,
>
> I have 2 dispensas that give the parents name for Pedro Chavez
> Bañuelos.
> they are Juan Chavez Banuelos and Ysabel Soto Almeida. Pedro is my
> descendant also. I also have a death date for his mother 2 Nov 1697 in
> Jerez, Zac.
> Would be glad to send you copies if you like.
>
> Sally
>
> Margarita Vallazza wrote:
> I'm a descendant of Pedro de Chabes Bañuelos and Agueda Olague; it's
> possible that his father was also a Pedro de Chabes Bañuelos. Could
> you send me the info on that couple in 1637 below? I'd surely
> appreciate it. Marge:)
> On Apr 10, 2006, at 2:11 PM, Arturo Ramos wrote:
>
>> I have begun to systematically go through film 0443967 (Tlaltenango
>> Matrimonios 1626-1723) since the film is not indexed. I am up to
>> about 1642 now and about 80-90% of the marriages are for Indios with
>> no surnames. However, there are a few indios with surnames and a few
>> Spanish marriages interspersed there and I imagine that will increase
>> as I go further in time on the film.
>>
>> If anybody has any families/lineages that they want me to keep an eye
>> open for while I do this, please let me know.
>>
>> I have run across the following thus far. If you would like further
>> details on any of these marriages let me know.
>>
>> 1629 Juan Garcia de Miramontes con Ana de Lopez
>> 1629 Pablo de Ortiz con Ynez de Saucedo
>> 1630 Juan de Frias Vandal con Alfonsina de la Paz
>> 1630 Manuel Diaz con Maria Ruiz
>> 1632 Jacintro de Lamas con Mariana Rodriguez
>> 1632 Juan de Isabel Pinedo con Juana de Castro
>> 1632 Antonio de Ribera con Maria de Solis
>> 1633 Gerardo Cardosso con Catalina de Haro
>> 1633 Pablo Flores de la Torre con Clara de Miramontes
>> 1634 Juan de Vera con Maria de Miramontes
>> 1634 Juan Sanchez con Tomasina Saucedo
>> 1634 Juan Gallardo con Maria Delgado
>> 1636 Rodrigo de Castro con Francisca de Rodas
>> 1637 Pedro de Chabes Banuelos con Catalina de Haro
>> 1638 Benito Gonzalez con Mariana Lopez
>> 1638 Juan Ruiz con Marta de Bobadilla
>> 1638 Francisco de Guzman con Catalina Gonzalez
>> 1639 Gerardo de Lamas con Leonor Ortiz
>> 1642 Antonio Lopez de la O con Maria Perez
>> 1644 Joseph Munoz con Maria Cid
>> 1644 Nicolas Perez con Gertrudis de Haro

Comentario

His wife was Agueda de Olague--her parents were Miguel Olague (Etualin)
and Juana de la Torre (del Rio).
On Apr 29, 2006, at 7:44 PM, Susana Leniski wrote:

> Margarita,
>
> Do you have the name of the wife of Pedro Chavez y Banuelos. I have
> that he
> was the son of Juan Chavez y Banuelos and Ysabel Soto Almeida, but I
> don't
> have the name of his wife.
>
> susana leniski
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sally Quinones"
> To:
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 1:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaltenango Marriages 1600s
>
>
> Margarita,
>
> I have 2 dispensas that give the parents name for Pedro Chavez
> Bañuelos.
> they are Juan Chavez Banuelos and Ysabel Soto Almeida. Pedro is my
> descendant also. I also have a death date for his mother 2 Nov 1697 in
> Jerez, Zac.
> Would be glad to send you copies if you like.
>
>
>
>

Comentario

Susana,

I have Pedro Chavez Bañuelos wife as Agueda Olague Etulain. her parents Miguel Olague Etulain and Juana De La Torre .His parents Cap. Juan Chavez Bañuelos and Ysabel Soto Almeida. I also seen both daughter and mother with the surname Del Rio.
About a year or more ago I found in Salvador Cabral Valdez website notes that gave the marriage information for Pedro and Agueda it has them married on 8 Dec 1681 with a dispensa in the 3 with 4 grado on 13 Nov 1681 . These notes state who were the testigos and the following.
(Esta partida esta sentada en el libro don de se sientan los casamientos de los espanols) This dispensa does not appear in Maria de la Luz Montejano Hilton's book
of dispensas. Is there some other book of marriages for espanols????
These notes are no longer on Salvador's website. I also wrote to Salvador and never got a response.

Sally
Susana Leniski wrote:
Margarita,

Do you have the name of the wife of Pedro Chavez y Banuelos. I have that he
was the son of Juan Chavez y Banuelos and Ysabel Soto Almeida, but I don't
have the name of his wife.

susana leniski

Comentario

Sally and Margarita,

Thank-you for the information. I found in my notes, a transcription of the
record:

CHAVEZ BAÑUELOS PEDRO DE, originario y vecino de la villa de Jerez, hijo
legítimo del Capitán Juan de Chávez Bañuelos y de doña Isabel de Soto y
Almeida, vecinos de la villa de Jerez. Pretende contraer matrimonio
eclesiástico en Jerez con doña Águeda del Río, originaria y vecina de la
villa de Jerez, hija legítima de Miguel de Olague y de doña Juana del Río,
vecinos y feligreses del partido de Jerez. Testigos: 1.- Capitán Pedro de la
Torre Gamboa, de 30 años de edad, vecino de la villa de Jerez y Teniente
General en la jurisdicción de Jerez. Declaró ser deudo de los pretensos.
Firmó. 2.- Antonio Flores, español, vecinos de la villa de Jerez. Dijo
conocer a los pretensos desde hace 16 años. Firmó. 3.- Mateo del Río, de 60
años de edad, vecino de la villa de Jerez. Pariente en tercer grado de la
contrayente. Firmó. Dispensa de matrimonio por impedimento de tercero con
cuarto grado de sangre, dada en la hacienda de San Antonio de los Griegos,
feligresía de El Ojo Caliente el 13 de noviembre de 1681 estando el
Ilustrísimo Señor Obispo de Guadalajara, Doctor don Juan de Santiago de León
Garabito en su actual y general Visita pastoral. Amonestados en 23, 25 (día
de Santa Catalina) y domingo 30 de noviembre, y casados en la ciudad de
Zacatecas el 8 de diciembre de 1681 por el Padre don Juan de Lara, siendo
testigos, Jacinto de Herrera, Francisco Castellón y Cristóbal Carrasco y
otras muchas personas que se hallaron presentes a dicha celebración. Esta
partida esta sentada en el libro donde se sientan los casamientos de los
españoles. Fojas: 11 - 14v.

I guess I took it from the website from Salvador, but I FILED it. I will be
in SLC in 2 weeks there I will try to get copies of this dispensation
(Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara).

Thank you again

susana

Comentario

Sally,

Your message caught my attention since I have family
with the Soto Almeida surname. Does this family look
familar to you:

Francisco DE SOTO ALMEIDA. He married Juana Magdalena
DE SALAZAR.

Their children were as follows:

i Anttonia DE SOTO ALMEIDA. She married on 22 Jun 1711
in Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
Juan DE CAMPOS, son of Juan DE CAMPOS and Ysabel
FERNANDEZ DE LAMAS.
ii Manuel Joseph SOTO SALAZAR, christened 16 Jun 1692
in Sagrario Metropolitano, Guadalajara, Jalisco,
Mexico.
iii Juan Miguel SOTO SALAZAR, christened 19 Nov 1696
in Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico.
iv Diego DE SOTO ALMEIDA. He married on 24 Nov 1723 in
San Luis, Colotlan, Jalisco, Mexico Juana DE GAETA,
daughter of Thomas DE GAETA and Maria DE ALMEDA.

Perhaps Ysabel Soto Almeida was daughter to this
couple or sibling to Francisco.

Thanks,
Angie Godina

Comentario

Angie,

I don't have any more information on Isabel Soto Almeida by the date of her son's marriage I would put her birth date in the 1630-40's.
My children are related to you on the Miramontes side. There ggtgrandfather was
Anacleto Miramontes son of Enrique son of Pedro son of Cristoval and son of Francisco Miramontes. I havn't work on this side of the family in several years.

Sally

A G wrote:
Sally,

Your message caught my attention since I have family
with the Soto Almeida surname. Does this family look
familar to you:

Francisco DE SOTO ALMEIDA. He married Juana Magdalena
DE SALAZAR.

Their children were as follows:

i Anttonia DE SOTO ALMEIDA. She married on 22 Jun 1711
in Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
Juan DE CAMPOS, son of Juan DE CAMPOS and Ysabel
FERNANDEZ DE LAMAS.
ii Manuel Joseph SOTO SALAZAR, christened 16 Jun 1692
in Sagrario Metropolitano, Guadalajara, Jalisco,
Mexico.
iii Juan Miguel SOTO SALAZAR, christened 19 Nov 1696
in Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico.
iv Diego DE SOTO ALMEIDA. He married on 24 Nov 1723 in
San Luis, Colotlan, Jalisco, Mexico Juana DE GAETA,
daughter of Thomas DE GAETA and Maria DE ALMEDA.

Perhaps Ysabel Soto Almeida was daughter to this
couple or sibling to Francisco.

Thanks,
Angie Godina

Comentario

Sally,

Wow, I descend from Jose Donaciano Miramontes Cardenas
brother of Anacleto Miramontes Cardenas. Donaciano
Miramontes and his wife Maria Valentina Gaeta Cardenas
are my 2nd great-grand parents. I am only familar
with one of Anacleto's children, Maria de Jesus
Miramontes. Do your children happen to descend from
her line? Also, I believe he was married more than
once, but I am also related to his first(?) wife Juana
Covarrubias Resa, Maria de Jesus's Mother.

I was looking at your files but didn't see any of
these families...did I over look them?

Two of my files are on this family, see
GaetaRaigosa.pdf and MiramontesGaeta.pdf

Thanks,
Angie Godina

Comentario

Angie,

My chlidren's ancestors are Anacleto Miramontes and his wife Juana Covarrubias
Made an error thier my children's gtgrandparents (not ggt). I never looked to see if Anacleto was married more than once. I don't have thier side of the family in my folder. Just working for now to get my own files ready. Thank you I will take a closer look at you files.

Sally

A G wrote:
Sally,

Wow, I descend from Jose Donaciano Miramontes Cardenas
brother of Anacleto Miramontes Cardenas. Donaciano
Miramontes and his wife Maria Valentina Gaeta Cardenas
are my 2nd great-grand parents. I am only familar
with one of Anacleto's children, Maria de Jesus
Miramontes. Do your children happen to descend from
her line? Also, I believe he was married more than
once, but I am also related to his first(?) wife Juana
Covarrubias Resa, Maria de Jesus's Mother.

I was looking at your files but didn't see any of
these families...did I over look them?

Two of my files are on this family, see
GaetaRaigosa.pdf and MiramontesGaeta.pdf

Thanks,
Angie Godina

Comentario

So that makes three of us researching this Miramontes Family: Sally, Ulla-Brit, and myself.

Sally, you may be interested to know that Anacleto Miramontes' mother, Maria Severa Cardenas Avila, is a descendant of a family depicted in the book 'Los Valdes de Totatiche'. There are a couple of other people in this group researching this Valdes Family.

Also, Anacleto's wife, Juana Covarrubias is a descendant of a family depicted in the book 'Los Jara de Totatiche'. As a said before I am related to Juana's family also. I looked over my notes and I was mistaken about Anacleto being married more than once. I have Juana as his only wife and I have four children listed for this family. If you tell me which child of thiers your children are descendants of, I can send you a chart of the information I have on Anacleto and Juana's ancestors.

Hope to hear from you,
Angie Godina

Comentario

Don't forget that I am researching the Miramontes family as well... Juan de Miramontes born circa 1550 was one of the first Spanish settlers in Tlaltenango and if any of you are as far back as the late 1600s with your Miramontes lineage, I am sure that your ancestor is in the Tlaltenango Marriages 1600s database that I am compiling. I have been able to sort out a lot of the descendancy through marriage dispensations.

Interesting fact... the Haros and Miramontes of Tlaltenango are one in the same. Juan de Miramontes had at least three children and some used the name Haro, others Miramontes and others both interchangeably. Eventually some lineages got one name, others got the other.

I suspect Juan de Miramontes was the same person as (or son of) a Juan de Miramonte who immigrated from Spain in 1562... I believe to Puebla and then onto Tlaltenango with his wife Maria de Saucedo.

Comentario

This is very interesting, Arturo. I forgot where I got it (someone's
webpage, I think) that the parents of Anna Francisca de Haro were Juan
de Miramontes and Maria Rodriguez de Haro Y Saucedo. Juan's parents are
Francisco de Miramontes and Maria de Rivera. Maria Rodriguez's parents
are Francisco de Bobadilla and Maria O Haro de Saucedo de Llavo. There
is more, but do you have any documentation on any of these people.?
Luna

arturoramos wrote:
> Don't forget that I am researching the Miramontes family as well... Juan de Miramontes born circa 1550 was one of the first Spanish settlers in Tlaltenango and if any of you are as far back as the late 1600s with your Miramontes lineage, I am sure that your ancestor is in the Tlaltenango Marriages 1600s database that I am compiling. I have been able to sort out a lot of the descendancy through marriage dispensations.
>
> Interesting fact... the Haros and Miramontes of Tlaltenango are one in the same. Juan de Miramontes had at least three children and some used the name Haro, others Miramontes and others both interchangeably. Eventually some lineages got one name, others got the other.
>
> I suspect Juan de Miramontes was the same person as (or son of) a Juan de Miramonte who immigrated from Spain in 1562... I believe to Puebla and then onto Tlaltenango with his wife Maria de Saucedo.

Comentario

I would need some dates to try to place these people. There are a
number of different Juan de Miramontes, born to different descendants of
the original Juan de Miramontes at different times. I do have a
Francisco de Bobadilla who was the encomendero of Tepechitlan in the
early 1600s. I have not traced down that lineage.

You can search the database by clicking on the GEDCOM menu item. Do you
remember whose website you found this information on? Did they have a
source?

-----Original Message-----
This is very interesting, Arturo. I forgot where I got it (someone's
webpage, I think) that the parents of Anna Francisca de Haro were Juan
de Miramontes and Maria Rodriguez de Haro Y Saucedo. Juan's parents are
Francisco de Miramontes and Maria de Rivera. Maria Rodriguez's parents
are Francisco de Bobadilla and Maria O Haro de Saucedo de Llavo. There
is more, but do you have any documentation on any of these people.?
Luna

Comentario

I have recently found a document in Archivos Espanoles en Red for Nicolas de Haro, who was son of Hernando de Haro and grandson of Juan de Miramonte and Maria de Haro y Saucedo. He states that his great-grandparents were Francisco Bobadilla and Maria Saucedo, which matches this claim:

The parents of Anna Francisca de Haro were Juan de Miramontes and Maria Rodriguez de Haro Y Saucedo. Juan's parents are Francisco de Miramontes and Maria de Rivera. Maria Rodriguez's parents are Francisco de Bobadilla and Maria O Haro de Saucedo de Llavo.

I do not have Ana Francisca de Haro down as a child of Juan de Miramonte and Maria de Haro y Saucedo, but I do have her down married to a Juan Ortiz de San Pedro, who was the brother of Cecilia Lopez (the second wife of Hernando de Haro and stepmother of Nicolas de Haro)... two pairs of siblings married to each other. It makes sense, particularly since I believe that the Ortiz de San Pedro and Haro Miramontes were the only Spanish families in Tlaltenango in the early 1600s.

Comentario

Hi Arturo,
This is very interesting but confusing. I have the death document (1716,
Jerez) for Ana de Aro which has her married to Diego de la Torre. What
are the dates on your records and are these really two Ana de Aros?
George

arturoramos wrote:
> I have recently found a document in Archivos Espanoles en Red for Nicolas de Haro, who was son of Hernando de Haro and grandson of Juan de Miramonte and Maria de Haro y Saucedo. He states that his great-grandparents were Francisco Bobadilla and Maria Saucedo, which matches this claim:
>
> The parents of Anna Francisca de Haro were Juan de Miramontes and Maria Rodriguez de Haro Y Saucedo. Juan's parents are Francisco de Miramontes and Maria de Rivera. Maria Rodriguez's parents are Francisco de Bobadilla and Maria O Haro de Saucedo de Llavo.
>
> I do not have Ana Francisca de Haro down as a child of Juan de Miramonte and Maria de Haro y Saucedo, but I do have her down married to a Juan Ortiz de San Pedro, who was the brother of Cecilia Lopez (the second wife of Hernando de Haro and stepmother of Nicolas de Haro)... two pairs of siblings married to each other. It makes sense, particularly since I believe that the Ortiz de San Pedro and Haro Miramontes were the only Spanish families in Tlaltenango in the early 1600s.

Comentario

I read about you transcribing a film "Tlaltenango Marriages 1600s". Have you finished it yet? I am very interested in the Haro, Hurtado, Santiago names. Also I see where it is stated that the Miramontes and Haors seem to be inter-mixed in families. In Spain there is an old town called HARO and is in the northern wine country. My research shows the Haro name is very common in Spain - like Jones or Smith in the USA. However in Mexico it is not common.
Thank You for your work
Linnie

Comentario

Angie,

Anacleto and Juana had 14 children thy were
Ysidro 15 May 1889, Domitila 12 May 1890, Maria De Jesus 9 Feb 1892
Francisco 29 Nov 1893 Ynocencio 13 Jan 1897, Nicolas 13 Feb 1899
Pedro 23 Feb 1901, Soledad 23 Feb 1901, Ermigdia (spelling??)10 Aug 1902
Maria Guadalupe 7 Nov 1903, Federico 30 Nov 1905, Manuel 21 Dec 1907,
Salvador 10 Aug 1909, and Guadalupe 13 Oct 1911 These are all baptism dates.
The last Guadalupe was my childrens ancestor. My records show that I went back to
the late to mid 1700's on most of my children ancestors.

Would be interested in those books or are they out of print?

Thank You
Sally

aajay1073 wrote:

So that makes three of us researching this Miramontes Family: Sally, Ulla-Brit, and myself.

Sally, you may be interested to know that Anacleto Miramontes' mother, Maria Severa Cardenas Avila, is a descendant of a family depicted in the book 'Los Valdes de Totatiche'. There are a couple of other people in this group researching this Valdes Family.

Also, Anacleto's wife, Juana Covarrubias is a descendant of a family depicted in the book 'Los Jara de Totatiche'. As a said before I am related to Juana's family also. I looked over my notes and I was mistaken about Anacleto being married more than once. I have Juana as his only wife and I have four children listed for this family. If you tell me which child of thiers your children are descendants of, I can send you a chart of the information I have on Anacleto and Juana's ancestors.

Hope to hear from you,
Angie Godina

Comentario

Arturo,

Have you seen this couple:
Andres Martines Correas and Ysabel De Miramontes

They had several children in the late 1600's in Tlaltenango. Two of their children married in Tlaltenango in the early 1700's:

Francisco Anttonio Correas and Maria De Sandobal in 1705 FEB 24.
Andres Martines Correas and Thomasa Gonsales 1711 JUL 14.

Ysabel has a sister Andrea De Miramontes married to Francisco De Salsedo probably married during the same time period as Ysabel. I am trying to find Andres and Ysabel's marriage record and name of parents.

Thanks,
Angie Godina

Comentario

Thanks for the clarification on the MAGALLANES saints. As I mentioned,
I am just up to 1640 (perhaps one tenth of the film) so when I get later
in the century I will look for that marriage.

As you can tell from the marriages I listed, the MIRAMONTES are
everywhere. They must have been one of the first Spanish families to
settle around Tlaltenango. I believe that there are several of them
mentioned in the 1650 census document that I found several months back
as well.

I am very excited because I have found a PINEDO very early on in
Tlaltenango. I have a feeling that this is a relative of Melchor PINEDO
de CARVAJAL, who was appointed mayor of Tlaltenango in the early 1600s
and was son of Miguel PINEDO, an official in Guadalajara at the end of
the 1500s.

-----Original Message-----
From: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of
aajay1073
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 3:17 PM
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaltenango Marriages - Correa(s)

Arturo,

Have you seen this couple:
Andres Martines Correas and Ysabel De Miramontes

They had several children in the late 1600's in Tlaltenango. Two of
their children married in Tlaltenango in the early 1700's:

Francisco Anttonio Correas and Maria De Sandobal in 1705 FEB 24.
Andres Martines Correas and Thomasa Gonsales 1711 JUL 14.

Ysabel has a sister Andrea De Miramontes married to Francisco De Salsedo
probably married during the same time period as Ysabel. I am trying to
find Andres and Ysabel's marriage record and name of parents.

Thanks,
Angie Godina

Comentario

Arturo,

Yes, I have noticed that there is many Miramontes. I myself also have many ancestors with the surname Miramontes.

If it is not too much trouble, can you keep an eye on these additional couples:

Francisco Antonio DE MIRAMONTES married Salbadora DE LLAMAS first child in 1713.

Antonio DE CASTANEDA married Mariana PEREZ first child in approx. late 1690's.

Andres DE CAMPOS married Juana DE RAIGOSA first child in 1704.

Juan DE CAMPOS married Ysabel FERNANDEZ DE LAMAS first child in approx late 1690's.

I listed the first child since I imagine they would have married within ten years of the first child that I have on record.

Thanks,
Angie Godina

Comentario

Hi, I have just read the marriage information entry on F 443843 about Fransisco Antonio De MIRAMONTES and Salbadora DE LLAMAS., Mars 6,1712. Father of Fransisco is Fransisco P? de Miramontes. I could not read what P was standing for. It was abreviated and looked like Poiez....? I could use help with that name!. His mother was Ana Diaz.
Father of Salbadora was Juan de Llamas and mother was listed to be Isabel de Mondragon. They lived in the vicinity of Taltenango.
ullabritt

Comentario

It was probably Perez de Miramontes. Marge:)
On Apr 27, 2006, at 11:22 PM, ullabritt wrote:

>
> Hi, I have just read the marriage information entry on F 443843 about
> Fransisco Antonio De MIRAMONTES and Salbadora DE LLAMAS., Mars 6,1712.
> Father of Fransisco is Fransisco P? de Miramontes. I could not read
> what P was standing for. It was abreviated and looked like Poiez....?
> I could use help with that name!. His mother was Ana Diaz.
> Father of Salbadora was Juan de Llamas and mother was listed to
> be Isabel de Mondragon. They lived in the vicinity of Taltenango.
> ullabritt

Comentario

Hi Ullabritt:

Are there any "Perez" in your family? It is hard to say without looking at
the original, looks like it could be "Perez".

John Gonzalez
Wildomar, CA.
1gnzlz@verizon.net

From: "ullabritt"
To:
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 9:22 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] marriage of 1712,Tlaltenango

>
> Hi, I have just read the marriage information entry on F 443843 about
> Fransisco Antonio De MIRAMONTES and Salbadora DE LLAMAS., Mars 6,1712.
> Father of Fransisco is Fransisco P? de Miramontes. I could not read what
> P was standing for. It was abreviated and looked like Poiez....? I could
> use help with that name!. His mother was Ana Diaz.
> Father of Salbadora was Juan de Llamas and mother was listed to be
> Isabel de Mondragon. They lived in the vicinity of Taltenango.
> ullabritt

Comentario

Thanks for your thought abt the name Perez. We have never seen that name before in the family, this might be the first time! However, I am not convinced.....more research is needed. Ullabritt

Comentario

Jorge Campos Lamas

Juan Campos cc Ysabel Fernandez de Lamas procrearon a Juan Campos Fernándes hacia 1686. Éste caso el 22 de junio de 1711 con Antonia de Soto Almeida en Tlaltenango, ella hija de Francisco de Soto Almeida y Jna Magdalena de Salazar. Si alguien conoce el origen de cualquiera de ellos se los agradeceré. Yo tengo parte de su descendencia por si a alguien interesa.

SALUDOS.

Comentario

Ysabel Fernandez de Lamas es hija de Jacinto Fernandez De Lamas y Mariana Rodriguez. Ellos se casaron, 3 Jun 1632 en Tlaltenango. Esta pareja tiene los siguientes hijos:

DOMINGO LAMAS RODRIGUES
Gender: Male Christening: 01 NOV 1631 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

JACINTO FERNANDES RODRIGUEZ
Gender: Male Christening: 08 SEP 1636 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

FRANCO. LAMAS RODRIGUES
Gender: Male Christening: 12 APR 1639 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

PEDRO LAMAS RODRIGUEZ
Gender: Male Christening: 13 AUG 1641 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

ISAVEL LAMAS RODRIGES
Gender: Female Christening: 26 MAY 1646 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

ANTONIA LAMAS RODRIGUES
Gender: Female Christening: 14 OCT 1649 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

Juan Campos y Antonia de Soto procrearon a mi ancestro antepasado:

MIGUEL MARIA CAMPOS SOTTO
Gender: Male Christening: 04 DEC 1729 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

Saludos,
Angie Godina

--- On Tue, 7/20/10, jcampos@cmt-mexico.com wrote:

> From: jcampos@cmt-mexico.com
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Tlaltenango Marriages -
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 5:00 PM
> Jorge Campos Lamas
>
> Juan Campos cc Ysabel Fernandez de Lamas procrearon a Juan
> Campos Fernándes hacia 1686. Éste caso el 22 de junio de
> 1711 con Antonia de Soto Almeida en Tlaltenango, ella hija
> de Francisco de Soto Almeida y Jna Magdalena de Salazar. Si
> alguien conoce el origen de cualquiera de ellos se los
> agradeceré. Yo tengo parte de su descendencia por si a
> alguien interesa.
>
> SALUDOS.

Comentario

Angie:

I was just going back over your posting of April where you asked me to look out for this couple (Isabel de Miramontes y Andres Martinez Correa) and mentioned that the wife had a sister by the name of Andrea Miramontes married to Francisco Salcedo. I have not found the couple's marriage but have found Andrea de Miramontes appears in a dispensation for her son Antonio. That would make Isabel and Andrea the daughters of Antonio de Miramontes and Maria de Esquibel. Do you have a cite for Andrea and Isabel being sisters? That would add a very useful link in the Tlaltenango Families GEDCOM.

Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara, Montejano Hilton, Maria de la Luz, 515, Entry 2588
"22 marzo 1695. Dispensa de segundo grado de afinidad por copula ilicita. Antonio de Salcedo, de 29 anos de edad natural del pueblo de Tlaltenango hijo legitimo de Francisco Salcedo y de Andrea Miramontes y Leonor de Ulloa, de 36 anos de edad, natural y vecina del Pueblo de Tlaltenango, vuida de Cristobal de Pineda, ambos residentes en el Pueblo de Xala. Declaracion del parentesco: que la dicha Leonor de Ulloa tuvo ilicita amistad con Juan de Miramontes, hermano legitimo de la dicha Andrea de Miramontes."

Comentario

Hopefully this all make sense...here it goes:

Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara, Montejano Hilton, Maria de la Luz, 472, Entry 2358
Guadalajara, Jal. Mayo 5 de 1753. Exp. 170. - Dispensa de tercero con cuarto grado de afinidad por copula licita. - Nicolas de Llamas, originario y vecino del Pueblo de Taltenango y residente en esta Ciudad de Guadalajara, hijo legitimo de Matheo de Llamas y de Maria Gonzalez, viudo de Barbara de Avila; con Andrea Correa, espanola, originaria y vecina de dicho Pueblo de Taltenango, hija legitima de Andres Correa y de Thomasa Gonzalez. Declaracion del pretenso: Andrea de Miramontes e Isabel de Miramontes, eran hermanas, de la dicha Andrea resulto Antonio Salcedo y de este procedio Nicolas Salcedo, y de este mi difunta esposa Barbara de Avila, y de Isabel de Miramontes procedio Andres Correa, y de este mi pretensa. Se otorgo la dispensa en la Ciudad de Guadalajara, en 5 de mayo de 1753, para que los case el Cura del Pueblo de Taltenango. 3 fojas.

--Nicolas de Llamas first wife Barbara Avila great grandaughter of Andrea Miramontes
Barbara Avila > Nicolasa De Salcedo > Antonio Salcedo > Andrea Miramontes
--Second wife Andrea Correa grandaughter of Ysabel Miramontes
Andrea Correa > Andres Correa > Ysabel Miramontes

Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara, Montejano Hilton, Maria de la Luz, 427, Entry 2185
Guadalajara, Jal. Marzo 6 de 1751. Exp. 29. - Dispensa de cuarto grado puro de consanguinidad. - Feliciano de los Santos de Avila, espanol, originario y vecino de la feligresia del Pueblo de Taltenango y residente en esta Ciudad de Guadalajara, hijo legitimo de Diego de Avila y de Nicolasa Salcedo; con Isabel Thomasa Magallanes, espanola, originaria y vecina de la misma feligresia de Taltenango, hija legitima de Cristobal Magallanes y de Isabel Correa. Declaracion del pretenso: Nicolasa de Miramontes(**) y Andrea de Miramontes, fueron hermanas, de la dicha Andrea procedio Antonio Salcedo, y de este Nicolasa Salcedo, y de esta yo, y de la dicha Nicolasa de Miramontes procedio Andres Correa, y de este Isabel Correa, y de esta la pretensa. Se otorgo la dispensa en la Ciudad de Guadalajara, en 6 de Marzo de 1751, para que los case el Cura propio del Pueblo de Taltenango. 4 fojas.

**Nicolasa Miramontes should actually be Ysabel Miramontes, since Ysabel is the mother of Andres Correa from above and IGI.

--Feliciano de los Santos de Avila is the great grandson of Andrea Miramontes and also the brother to Barbara Avila from above.
Feliciano Avila > Nicolasa De Salcedo > Antonio Salcedo > Andrea Miramontes
--Isabel Thomasa Magallanes is the great granddaughter of Ysabel Miramontes.
Isabel Magallanes > Ysabel Correa > Andres Correa > Ysabel Miramontes

As a note the Correa(s) surname is also sometimes written Martinez Correa(s) or sometimes just Martinez.

From IGI:
Feliciano de los Santos AVILA
PARENTS: Diego DE AVILA and Nicolasa SALCEDO
Thomasa Ysabel DE MAGALLANES
PARENTS: Christoval DE MAGALLANES and Ysabel MARTINES
Marriage: 21 APR 1751
LOCATION: Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
BATCH NUMBER: M607139; DATES: 1704-1754; SOURCE CALL NO.: 0443968;

NAME: Feliciano de los Santos AVILA SALZEDO
Christening: 12 NOV 1731
PARENTS: Diego DE AVILA and Nicolasa SALZEDO
LOCATION: Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
BATCH NUMBER: J600894; DATES: 1718-1732; SOURCE CALL NO.: 0443802;

Thomasa Ysabel MAGALLANES MARTINZ.
Christening: 2 JAN 1732
PARENTS: Xptoval DE MAGALLANES and Ysabel MARTINZ. CORREAS
LOCATION: Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
BATCH NUMBER: K600894; DATES: 1718-1732; SOURCE CALL NO.: 0443802;

Ysabel CORREAS GONZALES
Christening: 16 FEB 1711
PARENTS: Andres CORREAS and Thomasa GONZALES
LOCATION: Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
BATCH NUMBER: C600893; DATES: 1704-1718; SOURCE CALL NO.: 0443801;

Andres Martines CORREAS
Thomasa GONSALES
Marriage: 14 JUL 1711
LOCATION: Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
BATCH NUMBER: M607139; DATES: 1704-1754; SOURCE CALL NO.: 0443968;

(1st Marraige)
Nicolas DE LLAMAS
PARENTS: Matheo DE LLAMAS and Maria GONSALES
Barbara DE ABILA
PARENTS: Diego DE ABILA and Nicolasa SALSEDO
Marriage: 6 JUN 1740
LOCATION: Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
BATCH NUMBER: M607139; DATES: 1704-1754; SOURCE CALL NO.: 0443968;

(2nd Marraige)
Nicolas DE LLAMAS
Andrea Bonifacia MARTINEZ CORREA
PARENTS: Andres MARTINEZ CORREA and Tomaza GONZALES
Marriage: 2 JUL 1753
LOCATION: Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
BATCH NUMBER: M607139; DATES: 1704-1754; SOURCE CALL NO.: 0443968;

Let me know if you have any questions on all of that. Also how do you know Andrea is the daughter of Antonio de Miramontes and Maria de Esquibel? What document did that come from?

Thanks for you help,
Angie Godina

Comentario

Andrea and Isabel Miramontes appear in IGI with their father as Antonio de Miramontes... They are in the Tlaltenango Families GEDCOM so you can trace them all the way back to the original Juan de Miramontes and Cecilia Lopez. I wrote an article about Cecilia Lopez which appeared in the June or July issue of Somos Primos.

International Genealogical Index / Mexico
Father: Antonio Miramontes
Batch Number: C600891

1. YSABEL MIRAMONTES ESQUIBEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 22 JUL 1643 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
2. MARIA MIRAMONTES ESQUIBEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 30 SEP 1652 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
3. BALTHASSAR MIRAMONTES ESQUIBEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 13 JAN 1639 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
4. JUAN MIRAMONTES ESQUIBEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 25 JUN 1641 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
5. CHRISTOBAL MIRAMONTES ESQUIBEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 25 MAR 1656 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
6. ANDREA MIRAMONTES ESQUIBEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 15 DEC 1648 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico
7. ANTONIA MIRAMONTEZ ESQUIBEL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 21 APR 1635 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

Marriage in 1710 in Asientos and Aguascalientes

Published by dgmiv –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Just wondering if anyone has seen something like this. For the marriage of Diego Ximenez and Apolonia Diaz de Leon (Ruis de Esparza), there is a marriage recorded in Asientos (Nuestra Señora de Belen) on 23 enero 1710 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-67YS-D95?i=23&wc=M6QX-…). The entry starts at the end of page 23 and continues on page 24. But there is an entry in Informacion Matrimonial in the city of Aguascalientes dated 8 febrero 1710 (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DCF9-WL6?i=226&wc=M6QX…) for the same couple. I cannot find a marriage record in February or March in El Sagrario records. A curiosity.

Read full topic ➜

Comentarios

Comentario

Thank you for sharing this information as they are some of my ancestors, I had Apolonia Díaz and recently found a source with the name Díaz de León I also have sources of her children with her last name being Martínez.

Comentario

It's possible that they married in Asientos and you can see the bride was originally from Aguascalientes. Perhaps this was a way of keeping track of  who was married (so, the priest in Aguascalientes was informed of the intended marriage, and recorded the info matrimonial so they knew she had married). This was no avoid allowing any impediments to the marriage to stand. 

Read full comment ➜

Luevana family of Aguascalientes, AGS

Published by rosa9972 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

 

I have discovered that I am a descendant of Lorenzo de Luevana (died abt. 28 Jul 1741 in Aguascalientes) and his wife, Catharina Marin de Tiscareño (died about 25 Jul 1737). I have Lorenzo's parents' names from his burial record, but the parents of Catharina were not mentioned in hers. I looked at some trees at Family Search and Ancestry to try and get a sense of additional ancestors for this couple, and while some names are mentioned, I don't see any specific proof to add connections. For example,  the marriage record for Lorenzo's parents, Andres de Luevana and Cristina de Salazar, does not include parents, but people have identified some; however, there is no noted record to confirm the connection. 

 

Does anyone have any more on Lorenzo and Catharina (I'd like an identification and proof of her parents) or on Lorenzo's ancestry? 

Thank you!

Rosalinda

Read full topic ➜

Comentarios

RootsTech 2023 Conference

Published by Lee1 Ingram –
Foros
Announcements and Events

If you want to learn more about genealogy in general, the RootsTech conferences can be helpful. The good thing is that these conferences can be "In Person" (costs involved), or "Virtual" (free). This conference runs from March 2nd through March 4th, starting at 8am (Mountain Time) each day.

The link, if interested is:

https://www.familysearch.org/rootstech/event/rt2023

 

Read full topic ➜

Cristobal Martínez Lozano

Published by ssales1984 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Dear Members,

Recently I have been revisiting some lines that I had worked on a few years ago, trying to tie down some loose ends.

Comentarios

Comentario

Hola Sergio,

From the text that you’ve cited, ”Este caballero promovió la información genealógica a que con anterioridad se hace referencia y que se levantó en la Villa de León,” I think this would imply that Cristobal Martinez Lozano filed the paperwork regarding his lineage in the Villa de Leon, Guanajuato, one), because by 1628, Leon, Spain, was already considered a “ciudad,” as opposed to a “villa,” and two), because of Gonzalez-Leal’s comment, “cosa hasta cierto punto extraña porque en ella no tuvo intereses patrimoniales ni familiares”: he’s wondering why the paperwork was filed there, since the Lozano’s had no titular nor family interests in Leon, Gto (my guess is because, at that particular moment in time, the nearest available royal scribe or public notary might have been in Leon, Gto). But I thought that it was his father, Capitan Juan Lozano, who filed that paperwork? As a source for the Lozano lineage in Nueva Galicia (page 6 of “Letters”), Holcombe cited a “prueba de nobleza y limpieza de sangre” that Capitan Juan Lozano made in Leon, Gto, on 26 Feb 1628?

From what I understand, orders for certain records can now be placed with the Archivo Historico Municipal de Leon, but I didn’t see that document listed in the catalog. But you can always contact them.

As for Cristobal Martinez Lozano’s testamento, I’ve never seen it, nor was it listed among the available records at the Aguascalientes Acervo Colonial Digital website. It might name his wife’s parents if she received a dowry, but not necessarily. A more likely source would be Maria de Isla’s dowry card itself, which he would have had to file with a notary public. But we don’t know where nor when they were married.

The only notary document I’ve seen regarding Cristobal Martinez Lozano, was one dated 10 Feb 1608, in which he grants power to Juan Rodriguez de la Fuente. This was done in Teocaltiche, since, at the time, Teocaltiche and Lagos and Aguascalientes were all part of the same administrative district.

Saludos!
Manny Díez Hermosillo

New Nuestros Ranchos Website - available for viewing/testing

Published by Nuestros Ranchos –
Foros
Announcements and Events

The Tech-Group has finished performing preliminary testing with the new Nuestros Ranchos website.

The new site is located at:
nuestrosranchos.org

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi,
Thank you so much for the new site. My question is as follows: Where is the best place to send our observations about the new site, if we have any, during the testing period?

Saludos

susana L

Teocaltiche Deaths 1641-1819 Unfilmed

Published by Nandin –
Foros
Genealogy Research

For those of you researching Teocaltiche, Jalisco, the attached files will be of interest. These are two sets of extractions of very early death records which I believe have never been microfilmed.

Comentarios

Comentario

Alex, I remember that document. Presently my records are in storage disarray and only about 75% accessible. No luck locating it right now, but will continue looking and will let you know when I find it.

Mary Lou

Comentario

In 1997 when I was allowed access to the early burial records of Teocaltiche, I had with me a copy of the extractions provided by Dr. Helguera. Comparing the original documents with the extractions, I noted in pencil any corrections or omissions. I just came across these annotated pages and uploaded them to my Dropbox. Likewise, I am making these available in the Reference section of Nuestros Ranchos.

Mary Lou Montagna

Comentario

Mary Lou, thank you so much for sharing this info! I was curious about the record in the Jaime Holcombe letters.

There is "3. “Prueba de nobleza y limpieza de sangre” made by Cristóbal José Gómez Cornejo, 10 June 1758 in Jalostotitlán, Jalisco." and a statement "In the mid 1990s Jose Medina (Porterville, California) was able to break through his Ramírez Cornejo family line using, among other sources, the information provided in the 1758 limpieza de sangre document."

Have you ever seen this document?

Alex

Comentario

Working my way through the first set of notes that have provided new information, confirmed information from other records and raised new questions. Thank you for sharing this valuable information!

Saludos,
Austin Pérez

"Rangel" surname of Mezquitic, Jalisco, Mexico????

Published by MADERA_32 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

I have seen someone from Mezquitic, Jalisco, Mexico with the surname "Rangel."

Does that go far back to the colonial days of Mezquitic and is that spanish?

Comentarios

Comentario

I would assume that the majority of the Rangel's descend from the conquistador Alonso Rangel de Loaiza who came from Spain in the early part of the 16th century.

Danny

Comentario

I descend from Jose Romo de Vivar who founded the town of Bacanuche in Sonora, Mexico. Recently I found a researcher who suggested that Alonso married Luisa (Lucia) Velasquez (Fernandez) de Salazar, and they had a son, Juan Rangel Peguero who married Maria Rosales. Do you have this information or the sources of the above. If so, I would appreciate that help and information. Thank you in advance.

Comentario

I know my mom had cousins with that last name, she used to mention her cousin Salvador Rangel, but I don’t know how far back that name goes. I haven’t been able to make a connection. My mom was Pacheco Sanchez from Mezquitic.

Aspirantes a órdenes del Br. Joseph Miguel Flores de la Torre y Vallarta

Published by mendezdetorres –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Estimados compañeros:

Comentarios

Comentario

Hola Sergio, aquí está la información que solicitabas. Contiene una copia de su acta bautismal.

Expediente para vertirse los hábitos clericales de José Miguel Flores de la Torre y Vallarta

Fuente: "México, Jalisco, registros parroquiales, 1590-1979," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-XQXV-C?cc=1874591&wc=3J4H-… : 28 June 2014), Guadalajara > Diócesis de Guadalajara > Matrimonios 1733-1740 > images 222-242 of 262; parroquias Católicas (Catholic Church parishes), Jalisco.

Comentario

Mucho muy interesante Daniel, la verdad es que hay muchos datos de interés para los que descendemos de los Flores de la Torre. Yo aun me falta por descubrir a los ascendientes de María Flores de la Torre y su cónyuge Juan de la Cámara y Menoyo.

Enviado desde mi iPod

El 02/01/2012, a las 10:21 p.m., mendezdetorres@hotmail.com escribió:

> Estimados compañeros:
>
> En una documento de aspirantes a órdenes del Br. Joseph Miguel Flores de la Torre. Fechado 9 de febrero de 1758 en Xalostitlán, con 21 foxas se encuentra información adicional muy valiosa de la familia Flores de la Torre en la Nueva Galicia. Este documento establece aun más los vínculos que se encuentra en esa familia. Menciona algunos miembros de esta casa que ni tenía en mis archivos.
> En el documento menciona que el Br. Joseph Miguel Flores de la Torre era bautizado en la parroquia de Nuestra Señora de la Asunción de Xalostitlán el 5 de octubre de 1735 con el nombre Joseph Miguel María Flores de la Torre y Vallarta. Su padrino de bautizo era el Lic. D. Joseph de Feijóo Centellas, Cura de Guadalajara, hermano del Lic. Sebastián de Feijóo Centellas, Chantre de la Iglesia de Guadalajara y Micaela de Feijóo Centellas, mujer de Manuel Francisco Xavier Rincón Gallardo, IV Mayorazgo de Ciénega del Rincón, ambos hijos del muy afamado Lic. Francisco de Feijóo Centellas, Oídor de la Real Audencia de Guadalajara y su mujer Micaela de Moya y Palacios ambos originarios de los Reinos de Castilla en Málaga, Andalucía.
>
> El Br. Joseph Miguel Flores de la Torre y Vallarta era hijo legítimo de D. Joseph Tomás Flores de la Torre y Franco de Paredes, originario de la parroquia de Xalpa, jurisdición de Aguascalientes y su mujer Da. Ángela Manuela de Vallarta y Lomelín y Mendoza. Éstos casaron en Xalostitlán el 26 de novienmre de 1726. Sólo he encontrado otro hijo que bautizaron, Ignacio Francisco Xavier Flores de la Torre y Vallarta, el 27 de diciembre de 1737 en Xalostitlán.
> D. Joseph Tomás Flores de la Torre y Franco de Paredes era hijo legítimo del capitán Joseph Flores de la Torre y Ana Franco de Paredes, antiguos vecinos de Jalpa. Por el otro lado Ángela Manuela de Vallarta era hija del nobílisimo penínsular y patriarca de la familia en Los Altos de Jalisco, Carlos Francisco de Vallarta, Teniente de la Real Justicia de Xalostitlán y Juana de Lomelín y Mendoza. Además, menciona que el Br. Joseph Miguel Flores de la Torre, tenía tres tíos maternos que también entraron en la Iglesia, 1) Br. Carlos Vicente de Vallarta, 2) Br. Antonio de Vallarta y 3) el Br. Joaquín de Vallarta.
> Da. Juana de Lomelín y Mendoza era hija de D. Manuel de Lomelín y Mendoza y Da. Josefa Pérez Maldonado, de acuerdo con que establece en su limpieza de sangre. Menciona que un primo (creo debe ser primo segundo, no menciona la relación) del Br. Joseph Miguel Flores de la Torre era el Lic. Diego Pérez Maldonado, Cura Interino de Nochistlán en esos años.
>
> Por el lado paterno, menciona que el Br. Joseph Miguel Flores de la Torre tenía tíos paternos y primos hermanos que también entraron en la Iglesia. Un tío del Br. Joseph Miguel Flores de la Torre era el Br. Cayetano Flores de la Torre, hermano de su padre D. Joseph Tomás Flores de la Torre. Además, tuvo quatro sobrinos éste Joseph Tomás, quatro hijos clerigos, ambos hijos del capitán D. Nicolás Flores de la Torre y Bárabara Isabel González de Hermosillo. Estos debieron ser el Br. Juan Xavier Flores Alatorre, Alumno del Colegio de San Felipe de Neri de Guadalajara, el Dr. Vicente Antonio Flores Alatorre, Cura Vicario de Aguascalientes, el Reverando Juan Manuel Flores Alatorre, Caballero de la Orden de Carlos III y miembro de los Masones y el Padre Manuel Antonio Flores Alatorre que murió en el Vaticano el 28 de enero de 1797. Esta familia funcionaba como el Curato de Aguascalientes por unos cinquenta años en Aguascalientes.
>
> Menciona en las últimas páginas como testigos el Lic. D. Joseph de Feijóo Centellas que le conoce y es su padrino. Su abuelo materno, D. Carlos Francisco de Vallarta originario de los Reinos de Castilla y Teniente de la Real Justicia de Xalostitlán. Menciona, su tío abuelo el Cor. Juan de San Pedro Flores de la Torre, conquistador del Nayarit y Gobernador del Nuevo Reino de Toledo (Colima) y ostentaron otros oficios a que solo se dan a las personas bien nascidos, tenidas y conocidas. Menciona que el Br. Joseph Miguel Flores de la Torre y Vallarta es de calidad español y muy conocido de padres nobles y de linaje bueno y su limpieza de sangre.
> Como ven este documento menciona muchísima información genealógica, espero que les gustaron.
>
> Saludos y un año nuevo, lleno de prosperidad
>
> Daniel Méndez-Camino
>

Comentario

Hola Daniel, Could you share the link to where you found this document? If not at Familysearch, where can interested members view the record??

Thanks again for your hard work and dedication at NR!

Saludos,
Claudia
www.guadalajaradispensas.com
www.sagradamitra.com

Comentario

Hi everyone,
To view the priesthood document, it is under
1731-1735 FHL Source Film 167999 - Mexico GenealogySource film: 167999222 miguel flores de la torre y vallarta - priesthood / jalostotitlan

Saludos,
Daniel Mendez Camino

Juana Navarro de Gabay y Arias de Sotelo y Valderrama-Moctezuma Y Petronila Arias Sotelo y Valderrama de Moctezuma

Published by Amelie –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hola. ¿Saben de la existencia de algún documento que compruebe que Juana era hija de Petronila?

Comentarios

Comentario

Hace unos días estuve en la presentación de un libro sobre Ecatepec. Presentado por la antropóloga María de la Asunción Gracía Samper, con el apoyo del INBA y del centro de estudios Mesoamericanos. Ella asegura la existencia de Petronila y de Juana. Y habla de la primera en su libro San Cristobal Ecatepec. Ahí mismo conocí a otro descendiente de Petronila que compartió conmigo la dispensa matrimonial. Intentaré subir el documento a esta página.
Saludos

Comentario

Dear Members,

I am trying to tie up some loose ends. I am arriving late to the whole Juana Navarro conversation. I do not have anything new to contribute. But I am looking forward to hearing if Amelie received the dispensa we have all been waiting for. As always, I agree that we need primary sources.

The purpose of my post is to try to firm some things up with primary sources, and ask some questions where I do not know how we have arrived at some conclusions. From Armando Antuaño’s transcription, it is proven, by the dispensa listed below, that María Gabai and Francisca Gabai were full sisters, daughters of Martín Navarro and Petronila de Montezuma.

Dispensa Matrimonial de Bartolomé Rodríguez Bajo y Tomasa de la Rosa Ulloa

From this same dispensa, it is shown that María Ruiz de Esparza was the daughter of Francisca Gabai. Searching on Nuestros Ranchos, it appears that people believe Lope Ruiz de Esparza was the father. Question #1, can someone please show me a primary source that says this?

Matrimonio de Francisco Rodríguez de Montes de Oca y Ana Tomasina Ruiz de Esparza

I have found the marriage between Francisco Rodríguez de Montes de Oca and Ana Tomasina Ruiz de Esparza. This document names the bride’s parents as Lope Ruiz de Esparza and Francisca Gabadi. I am assuming that Gabbadi is the same as Gabai and that this is the same couple? Also one of the witnesses is Juana de Siordia, which it says is cousin to the bride. Question #2, am I correct, that this Juana de Siordia is the same as the daughter of María Gabai? Question #3, is this Lope Ruiz de Esparza, the younger, or the elder?

Defunción de Lope Ruiz de Esparza

Summary of Questions:

  1. Can someone please show me a primary source for Lope being the father of María Ruiz de Esparza?
  2. Am I correct, that this Juana de Siordia is the same as the daughter of María Gabai?
  3. Is this Lope Ruiz de Esparza, husband of Francisca Gabai, the younger, or the elder?
  4. Which Lope Ruiz de Esparza died in 1651?
  5. Is this Lope Ruiz de Esparza, husband of Francisca Gabai, the younger, or the elder?
  6. Can someone share a primary source that shows that Pedro Fernández de Vaulús was the husband of María Gabai?

I could go on, but I think this is a logical place to stop.

Many thanks,

Sergio Sean Salés

Comentario

Hola Sergio,

First, the surname “Gabai” was written by some scribes as “Gabbadi.” The surname “Vaulus” was all over the place, too, sometimes written “Valdus.”

1. That Maria Ruiz de Esparza was the daughter of Lope Ruiz: on 25 Dec 1621 baptized was “Maria, hija de Pedro Tarasco y de Isabel su muger Tarasca, fue su madrina Ma Ruiz de Esparca hija de Lope Ruiz de Esparca su padre.”

She is also established as the daughter of Francisca Gabai in the dispensa of Joseph de Torres and Elvira de Ulloa, which names Francisca Gabai as the sister of Cristobal Navarro.

2. As per her testamento, dated 14 Jun 1677 in Aguascalientes, Juana de Siordia was the daughter of Pedro Fernandez de Vaulus and Maria de Gabai. This document can supposedly downloaded at the Aguascalientes Acervo Colonial Digital del Archivo Historico, but you have to have MS Internet Explorer to open any document.

3. Lope Ruiz de Esparza, who was married to Francisca Gabai, was the son of another Lope Ruiz de Esparza cc Ana Maria Diez de Equinoa, but he was the first of this name to live in Aguascalientes. The younger Lope Ruiz’s were his grandsons, as he had no known son named Lope.

4. Lope Ruiz de Esparza, who was buried 23 Aug 1651, is generally accepted as the same who was married to Francisca Gabai.

5. This question is the same as #3.

6. That Pedro Fernandez de Vaulus was the husband of Maria Gabai is established by the above mentioned testamento of Juana de Siordia. When I get the chance, I’ll try to upload this testamento to the files>reference materials section of this website.

I hope that helps!
Manny Díez Hermosillo

Comentario

As Ophelia Marquez and I prepared to share our Jaime Holcombe letters, we would occasionally add our comments as a footnote. Sometimes additional information was newly available, or perhaps we didn't agree with him or perhaps we just wanted to expand. So we tacked on our comments at the end of the letter, always in a different type font.

The comment regarding the 1651 death of Juana Navarro, wife of Benito de Islas, was taken from extractions of unmicrofilmed Teocaltiche records provided to me by Dr. J. Leon Helguera (who had received them from a very reliable researcher). To my knowledge, Jaime never saw those extractions. I introduced this particular extraction as raw data, without further comments, because I did not have (and still do not have) anything more to identify this couple.

Per Dr. Helguera, the extractions (1641-1733) he generously provided were incomplete. There were more very early death records in Teocaltiche! Unfilmed! So on August 1997 I went to the Notaria de Teocaltiche where I was very cordially received and allowed to extract from their Folder #2 ( 1696-1818). Some of my extractions overlapped with the set given to me earlier. And, in some cases, the other researcher and I interpreted the difficult handwriting differently. But these entries are invaluable for genealogists and researchers. So, like the earlier comment re Juana Navarro, I am presenting these extractions to you for your analysis. I am uploading both sets to my Dropbox account and to the Nuestros Ranchos Research files.

Mary Lou Montagna

Comentario

Hi Mary Lou,

Thank you so much for providing us with this information. Your dropbox has helped me so much in my research. I really appreciate all that you have done for us.

Danny

Comentario

Hola Amelie,

Bienvenido al grupo.

He solicitado la misma documentación en otros foros, pero todavía nadie me ha respondido. Lo que me lleva a creer que no existe ninguna documentación que compruebe que 1) Martín Navarro y Petronila de Moctezuma tuvieron una hija de nombre Juana Navarro que estaba casada con Benito de Isla, y 2) que Juana Navarro fue la madre de Magdalena de Lavezares y María de Isla y Moctezuma, y ​​3) que Juana Navarro y Benito de Isla fueron los padres de María de Isla, esposa de Cristóbal Martínez Lozano.
Por lo tanto, es mi opinión, que estas relaciones son teorías que aún no se han probado. Pero a medida que suceden las cosas con Internet, se han convertido en mitos urbanos sin ninguna base real.
Espero que alguien pueda demostrar que estoy equivocado. I dare you!

Por lo demás, hasta el momento sólo existe un documento que nombra a Martín Navarro y Petronila de Moctezuma, y ​​es la dispensa de Bartolomé Rodríguez y Tomasa de Ulloa, que establece que Martín Navarro y Petronila de Moctezuma fueron los padres de María de Gabai, quien estaba casada con Pedro Fernández de Vaulús, y de Francisca de Gabai, casada con Lope Ruiz de Esparza. Por otras dispensaciones sabemos que María de Gabai y Francisca de Gabai eran hermanas de Cristóbal Navarro, que tuvo una hija natural llamada María Navarro y de Gabai. Se teoriza que Petronila era hija de Diego Arias de Sotelo y doña Leonor de Valdarrama, pero nadie ha aportado aún los documentos que comprueban esta relación. Por eso, nuevamente, es otra teoría la que corre el riesgo de convertirse en un mito urbano.

¡Bienvenido a la fiesta! :)

Manny Díez Hermosillo

Comentario

Hi Manny,

MaryLou Montagna says that Juana Navarro was the wife of Benito de Isla, and says she was buried in Teocaltiche on 28 Dec 1651. She also names the albaceas of her will were Antonio de Ruvalcaba and Miguel Martínez de Alarcón, vecinos de Teocaltiche. And, says it was unmicrofilmed, but the only way she would know this information is if her and Jaime Holcomb saw the record. I don't know if the record named her parents, but if it named the children like Magdalena de Lavezares and Maria de Isla y Moctezuma that alone would pretty much confirm the accuracy

Danny

Comentario

Amelie, perdóname, voy a escribir en inglés; si me entiendes pues nada, si no o si tienes alguna duda, pregúntame.

Thank you for responding, Danny, and I hope you’re doing well! We had a discussion about these same families about 7 years ago, and nothing was ever determined. I even asked this very question 2 years ago, and I was referred to that same burial record - which really offers very little information. Here’s what it says:

“Juana Navarro, wife of Benito de Isla, was buried in Teocaltiche on 28 Dec 1651. The albaceas of her will were Antonio de Ruvalcaba and Miguel Martínez de Alarcón, vecinos de Teocaltiche. This information was extracted from an unmicrofilmed death record in Teocaltiche.”

In “Letters,” Holcombe made no comment about this entry, he didn’t even offer an opinion; he didn’t say that Juana Navarro was the mother of Magdalena de Lavezaris and the Maria de Isla’s, nor did he attempt to link her to Martin Navarro and Petronila de Moctezuma. Unless he said these things in another of his writings, they are hypotheses formed by other researchers who have likely read the above passage. And as far as I know, no one has yet produced any of his writings nor any documentation that would confirm these relationships, so it’s all still hypothetical. For all we know, this Juana Navarro was from the Navarro Gaitan family and was only 18 years-old and died giving birth to her first child! This seems just as plausible to me, seeing how no one named “Juana Navarro” appeared as a madrina for any confirmations in 1627, 1634 nor in 1648, as one would expect, if she lived in Teocaltiche (especially since several of her supposed grandchildren were confirmed there. Note: nor was anyone named “Juana Navarro” madrina for any baptisms or confirmations in Nochistlan/Mexticacan prior to 1651).

So, at this point, the Juana Navarro burial record is a dead end (figuratively and literally jeje). It answers nothing and instead presents only questions.

But what I think has happened is, people put these supposed relationships - these hypotheses that were probably inspired by that burial record - into their online trees, perhaps hoping that some day, a document will appear that would confirm them. But the problem with this is - as these things tend to occur on the internet - other people see these online trees and they copy them, without bothering to verify them. And apparently, many people have done this, because now there’s a gajillion online trees with these same supposed relationships - none which offer sources - leading me to believe that they’re all based on each other (!!!). The internet is funny that way - it’s like an echo chamber: unsourced trees using each other to verify each other; everyone assuming that “if everyone says it’s so, then it must be so.” And voila! A hypothesis becomes fact. Totally eliminating the need to prove and verify. That is very shoddy work - what if the relationship turns out to be untrue?

That’s my opinion, anyways. That Juana Navarro is the mother of Magdalena de Lavezaris and the Maria de Isla’s, and that she is a daughter of Martin Navarro and Petronila de Moctezuma, are hypotheses that have taken on lives of their own, and that have evolved into what are essentially urban myths. But without anything that would substantiate it, a hypothesis is still only a hypothesis, and people need to recognize this, or else they could be climbing up the wrong family tree.

Saludos,
Manny Díez Hermosillo

Comentario

Hi Manny,

Wow, it's been 7 years? I was just a kid. I can't believe it's been that long ago. I definitely agree with you that every tree out there comes from this little bit of information. And, that it's not much to go on. And, that everything out there is just speculation. I also don't really like the dates given as it doesn't leave a lot of time for the marriages and the children to fit in the time table. But, part of the theory makes sense to me, of course, with no proof. Do you think there's no actual record of a Juana Navarro married to a Benito de Isla or that there's just no proof that this Juana Navarro married to a Benito de Isla is connected to Petronila de Moctezuma?

The part of the theory that makes sense to me is that we know from various sources that Magdalena de Lavezaris and Maria de Isla y Moctezuma and Maria de Isla are siblings. We know that they all are the children of Benito de Isla and that at least one of them descends from and uses the name Moctezuma and that their descendants also use the Moctezuma name too. Since we know that Benito de Isla doesn't descend from Moctezuma, the ancestry would have to come from his wife and the mother of Maria de Isla y Moctezuma. So, we know that there's a Benito de Isla married to a descendant of Moctezuma. If that Benito de Isla that is married to Juana Navarro is the correct father of Magdalena and the Maria's than it would make sense that it was this Juana Navarro that was a descendant of Moctezuma. And, since she uses Navarro and would be a descendant of Moctezuma it would make sense that she was the child of Martin Navarro and Petronila de Moctezuma, but yeah, it's not a lot to go on. It would be helpful if we knew where the wills were kept in Teocaltiche. Or at least a record of of one of the children that lists their parents as Benito de Isla and Juana Navarro

Danny

Comentario

Hola Manny y Alonso, estoy en la misma postura que ustedes y por eso sigo buscando. Hasta donde sé, Petronila tuvo puras hijas monjas, 3 creo recordar. Juana parece ser la oveja descarriada y por lo tanto hay pocos documentos sobre de ella. No estoy en casa durante un par de semanas, pero en cuanto vuelva voy a ver a una experta en los hijos de Moctezuma. Espero tenga información sobre Juana y Petronila. Seguiré en contacto. Es muy interesante lo que ustedes comentan. Muchas gracias. Saludos

Familia Mercado- Tlaltenango, Zacatecas

Published by superhorrible –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello,

I'm looking for any informacion about 2 couples that I found in a Land Record in Tlaltenango. Both couples are mentioned in the history of the same property

Comentarios

Comentario

In 2017 I posted:

“ Genealogist Bernardo del Hoyo Calzada. states that Pedro Carillo's wife is Maria Mercado de Vasquez, daughter of Capitan Gines Vasquez de Mercado, and this is the line that makes the most sense when taking in all the information and the timelines. Others place his wife as an illegitimate daughter of Bernardo Vasquez de Tapia and his sister in law but this line is doubtful. In both cases she descends from Conquistador Bernadino Vasquez de Tapia. But one line bypasses Capitan Gines Vasquez del Mercado.

The reason that people mix up the lines is that there is marriage between very close relatives. Capitan Gines Vasquez de Mercado's wife is his first cousin. Licienciado Gines Vasquez de Mercado's sister is married to Bernardino Vasquez de Tapia. To top it off, Bernardino is related to Licienciado Gines Vasquez de Mercado's wife, Ines Vasquez. What happens is that people got confused as to how they are related and then screwed up the line. So Bernardo Vasquez de Tapia states that his daughter is married to Gines Vasquez de Mercado and that Gines comes from an honorable family. What he forgets to mention in this statement is how close his daughter is related to her husband since Bernardo is his uncle, besides his father-in-law. We know that Sebastian Vasquez de Mercado is the son of Pedro Carillo D'Avila (senior). If it is correct that his mother is a daughter of Capitan Gines Vazquez de Mercado then Conquistador Bernardo Vasquez de Tapia is her maternal grandfather and great uncle, and she is not his illegitimate daughter as some genealogists claim.

Genealogist Bernardo del Hoyo Calzada provided clues that I was able to jump on to get the 1624 document that clearly states the name of Sebastian Vasqquez de Mercado's father. What makes this record important is that Sebastian Vasquez de Mercado is still alive at this time.”

Rick A. Ricci

Comentario

I would be interested as well because I am a descendant of Ines Rangel de Acuna and Juan Mercado.

I know there are Acuna's and Mercado's in the Fresnillo census. Also I think Sebastian de Mercado and Ana de Santillian or relatives are in the marriage despensa book.

Comentario

Bernardo Carillo Dávila is the son of Pedro Carillo and Isabel Luna (Aka Delgadillo). Juana Mercado is listed as “expuesta en la casa De Sebastian Mercado”. Captain Sebastian Mercado raised Juana. I recall reading In another record that when Juana married that it was admitted that she was marrying her cousin. The surname was also written as Vasquez De Mercado.

I previously posted:

“Juana Mercado
Submitted by R.A.Ricci (not verified) on Wed, 2017-04-05 16:34.
Sebastian Vasquez de Mercado, son of Pedro Carillo D'avila and Maria Vasquez de Mercado takes in and raises a baby girl that is left on his "" doorstep". It is assumed that this baby girl is Sebastian's born out of wedlock. "Expuesta" is the word used. The Baby is Named Juana Vasquez de Mercado and when she Is of age, she marries a cousin. When she is married, it is acknowledged that she is family and not just adopted.”

Sebastian Vasquez De Mercado is married to Leonor Gonzalez.

Rick A. Ricci
Source: Mygenes2000

Comentario

Susana, You have Ana Santillan as the widow of Sebastian where another record names her as Leonor Gonzalez. Leonor Gonzalez is also identified as his widow so I believe that Leonor and Ana are the same person. Sebastian Vasquez de Mercado’s mother’s ancestry is confusing because of the the Tangled web of Bernardo Vasquez de Tapia having three relationships and bis being uncle and father in law to Capitán Ginés. Also confusing the issue is that Ginés is a junior. So when the records say he descends from Ginés they could mean the senior Ginés who was famous in Spain for his charity. 

What we know for sure is that he descends from Bernardo Vasquez de Tapia and the senior Ginés Vasquez de Mercado. 

You can find the 2017 thread of this discussion here on nuestrosranchos: 

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/23831 

It was admitted that Juana was biological family, and not just adopted. Juana was a first cousin once removed (segundo con tercer grado) of her spouse, Juana Mercado was a first cousin of her father-in-law. I have not found a record that names her biological mother. 

Thank you, Rick A. Ricci Source 

Mygenes2000

Read full comment ➜

Comentario

Hello Rick,
I'm looking for Juana Mercado (wife of Capitan Bernardo Carrillo Davila)

You stated:
“Juana Mercado
Submitted by R.A.Ricci (not verified) on Wed, 2017-04-05 16:34.
Sebastian Vasquez de Mercado, son of Pedro Carillo D'avila and Maria Vasquez de Mercado takes in and raises a baby girl that is left on his "" doorstep". It is assumed that this baby girl is Sebastian's born out of wedlock. "Expuesta" is the word used. The Baby is Named Juana Vasquez de Mercado and when she Is of age, she marries a cousin. When she is married, it is acknowledged that she is family and not just adopted.”

What is the source for this information?. I read the dispensas from the previous post and I couldn't find it. (maybe I didn't read well).

thank you

sus

Comentario

I have this if it helps you.wife of 9th Great Uncle of Chet Castanon.record shows that Juana Mercado was raised as a daughter el Capitan Sebastian Mercado..Ordenes  from la Sagrada Mitra 1615-1699dated 17 April 1681 in Guadalajarawitness Antonio de Condomasea Espanol from this city age 70 more or lesswho said  he has known Lorenso Carrillo Davila for 8 years more or lessLorenso Carrillo Davila clerico de menor ordenes from real de Fresnillo no age givenparents: el Capitan Bernardo Carrillo living and Juana Mercado deceased from Jerezpaternal grandparents: Pedro Carrillo and Ysabel de Luna both deceasedmat grn: Juana Mercado who was expuesta at the home of Capitan Sebastian Mercado who raised her.note? record mentions Lorenso Carrillo de Abila el moso?source: 168680 Ordenespage 7 Familysearch online.marriage dispensation 3rd degree igualTrunk.. Pedro Carrillo DavilaBernardo Carrillo Davila......Ana Carrillo Davila..1st Nicolasa Carrillo Davila...l...Petronila Felix de Arellano..Juan de la Torre Gamboa.....Teresa Felix de Arellano..3rd .marriage dispensation 3rd degree igualTrunk... Pedro Carrillo de AvilaNicolas Felix Arellano........Maria Carrillo...1st degreeBartolome Felix Arellano...Joseph Roman..2nd degreeJuan Dionicio Carrillo.........Francisca Roman.3rd degreesource: 167367 sagrada mitra film.marriage dispensation 4th degree igualTrunk Unknown SantillanAna Santillan..................Juan Santillan.. siblings1stAna Vasquez Mercado...Thomas Santillan..2ndSebastian Mercado.........Juana Santillan..3rdJoseph Mercado..............Maria Arellano..4thsource: sagrada mitra 167977 film.10th Great Grandfather of Chet Castanon (my father).information for lineage of Juan Carrillo Davila.marriage dispensation 4th degree igualTrunk Unknown Carrillo DavilaJuan Carrillo D...... Pedro Carrillo D. 1st degreePedro Carrillo D.....Maria Carrillo D.. 2nd degreeMaria Carrillo D......Pedro Cid Caldera..3rd degreeJoseph Roman......Josefa Cid Caldera  4th degree.

Comentario

Hi Rick,

I'm just reentering the site and found this which seems to be a very interesting discovery. Would you kindly provide me the information that could lead me to the document where Juana de Mercado is mentioned as expósita of Sebastian de Mercado and Sebastian de Mercado as son of Pedro Carrillo de Ávila and married to Leonor González?

I have Sebastian as the husband of Ana de Santillán and possibly, too, of María Beltrán de Acuña.

I also have Bernardo Carrillo de Ávila as the son of the third Pedro Carrillo de Ávila and the first Catalina Cid Caldera. The second Pedro Carrillo de Ávila was married to Juana de Pinedo and some of their children were born in the newly founded San Luis Potosí at the end of the XVI century. The first Pedro Carrillo de Ávila was married to Sancha de Mercado, or Sancha de Belmar, the natural daughter of Bernardino Vázquez de Tapia, the conqueror.

Thank you very much,
Héctor

Comentario

Rick,
I wonder if Pedro Carillo D'avila is related Maria Carillo Davila that married Nicolas Gonzalez de Isla, and mother of Sebastian Gonzalez de Isla. Sebastian married Maria Rodriguez in Tlaltenango in 1709 (Tlaltenango Matrimonios 1626-1723, Film 443967, Image 67). Nicolas (b ~1635) is from Nochistlan, son of Diego & Cecilia Vasquez de Sandoval, but I haven't found any other information about Nicolas' marriage or residence.

Any chance that you Maria is a sister of Pedro?

Thanks,
Arturo

Introduction

Published by nickpending –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hello Everyone,

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi Rudy,

Welcome to the group. I'm not familiar with the areas you mentioned but, hopefully, others are. If you need help with a specific person just let everyone know who you're stuck on and maybe they might be familiar with that person

Danny

introduction of the Vázquez del Mercado family

Published by ramon sanchez –
Foros
Announcements and Events
Hello everyone, I am Ramón E Sánchez Vázquez del Mercado, I am 62 years old and for more than 10 years I have dedicated a lot of time to the genealogy referring to the surname Vázquez del Mercado, my

Comentarios

Comentario

I am also working on this line. It is my direct paternal ancestor. I have reached Juan Vasquez de Mercado cc Ines Rangel de Acuna but am stuck there. Glad to see someone else is working on the line too!

Alex Mercado

Fresnillo, Zacatecas ---Where Are The Records???

Published by makas_nc –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Looking for my 4th GGrandfather Cipriano Puente born in Fresnillo in 1787 but the records don't go back that far for that location.

Comentarios

Comentario

It might be that the books are lost or destroyed, it might be that they haven’t yet been microfilmed or digitized (hopefully that’s the case). There are still the padrones:

1648: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89K7-WSTN?i=416&cat=23…

1770: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89K7-W3HV?i=204&cat=23…

1838: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89K7-WSTR?i=430&cat=23…

Good luck!
Manny Díez Hermosillo

San Judas Tadeo, Villanueva Zacatecas

Published by mpetty85 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Has anyone had any experience in researching records in The San Judas Tadeo church in Villanueva, Zacatecas? My wife and I are planning to visit there this summer.

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi, Just a followup on San Judas Tadeo Church, Villanueva; My in-laws and I visited the church 2 days ago. The church office is at the side of the church. The young lady at the desk was very pleasant and willing to look things up but the resources that they have on bautismos and matrimonios are limited. The church records are not digitized and apparently are not completely indexed. I had a couple of names and dates for matrimonios in the 1830s but she could not find it in the church index, even though I could see it online through Ancestry.com and familyserach.com copies of records. I think they would have let us see the originals if they could have found it in their index. Its worth a visit to see the church if nothing else. Beautiful to see on the inside.

The presidencia office of the municipio is on the opposite corner from the church. They have death records. We went there too late in the day to see anything though. It was on a Friday and I had to catch a flight out the next day. My in-laws are going to go back next week to check what they have on those.

Just a word of caution on exploring the roads out of town south of Villanueva, you'll want to stay clear of those unless you have friends or family to tell you where not to go. Im told that cartel people are out there.

Introduction (Reynoso, Renteria, and Zermeno families)

Published by Lee Ingram –
Foros
Announcements and Events

Hi All, I have been a member here since 2016, with Martin Renteria noted in the records of my wife, Judith Martinez, with her Martinez family very well established and recorded in the Coahuila and Nue

Comentarios

Comentario

Your comments are so appreciated. You don't know how much enjoyment it brings to me to know that every once in a while someone expresses the value they have received from all the good folks on this list. Thanks for keeping the website alive. . .I just wish I could help more, but I see the need to back away as the future of the site depends on a group effort, thanks for leading the charge!

Joseph Puentes

Possible origin of the Lopez Bueso family?

Published by dserna1 –
Foros
Genealogy Research

Hola Primos,

Comentarios

Comentario

Recently, I found another clue as to Juan de Aguilar Solorzano's (cc Mariana Telles de Herrera & Luisa de Araiza Medina) parents. There's a very short document that explains the relationship between Buenaventura de Villasenor and Maria Petrona del Castillo:

Informacion matrimonial entre Buenaventura de Villasenor y Ortega y Maria Petrona del Castillo y de la Parra (Guadalajara, Jalisco - Enero 26, 1756

In it Buenaventura clearly states that his father and his future bride's father are 2nd cousins. Both of which are said to descend from Francisco de Aguilar Solorzano and Ana Ruiz Galindo! Like I said, it's a short document but there's enough information out there to figure out the parentesco (At least on the Villasenor side).

Starting with Buenaventura's side:

Tronco: Francisco de Aguilar Solorzano cc Ana Ruiz Galindo
Juan de Aguilar Solorzano cc Luisa de Araiza Medina
Juana de Aguilar Solorzano y Araiza cc Luis de Villasenor y Rico
Lorenzo de Villasenor y Aguilar cc Antonia de Ortega y Arriola
Buenaventura de Villasenor y Ortega cc Maria Petrona del Castillo

On Maria Petrona's side, let's start with the bride as it gets murky somewhat the farther back we go (due to lack of documentation):

Maria Petrona del Castillo y de la Parra, daughter of:
Tomas del Castillo cc Maria de la Parra (Here's their marriage record)
Alonso del Castillo cc Mariana Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar
Here's where the trail goes cold since I can't find the parents of either Alonso or Mariana. Given Mariana's Escobar surname... I suspect the parentesco is on her side. Regardless, it's another clue to get us closer to Francisco de Aguilar Solorzano cc Ana Ruiz Galindo.

P.S. While looking into the del Castillo's... I ran across this matrimonial information for one of Alonso del Castillo's children (Maria del Castillo y Gonzalez) when they were married off to Lazaro Fernandez de Castaneda. In it Juan de Araiza Medina cc Maria del Castillo gives testimony. He states that his wife is the aunt of the bride! (Don't know if this was known information?) All in all, we find out that Alonso del Castillo (cc Mariana Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar), Maria del Castillo (cc Juan de Araiza Medina y Islas) and a Antonio del Castillo were brothers.

P.P.S Another interesting follow-up is that Lazaro married a second time to Juana Alvarez de Castrejon y Covarrubias. It turns out that his future bride had a parentesco with his deceased first wife (Maria del Castillo y Gonzalez). In the dispensa we find that the father of Juana was Francisco de Covarrubias y Gonzalez (Son of Nicolas de Covarrubias and Juana Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar - sister of Mariana Gonzalez de Escobar - mother of Maria del Castillo - Lazaro's deceased first wife). Thus we now know that Juana Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar and Mariana Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar were sisters. Combined with the information above, they were related closely to the Ana Ruiz Galindo y Escobar.

Comentario

I went down the rabbit hole of investigating the roots of Mariana Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar. As I mentioned in my previous post, the dispensa for Lazaro Fernandez de Castaneda and Juana Alvarez de Castrejon y Covarrubias yielded the discovery that Mariana Gonzalez Lozano was the sister of Juana Gonzalez Lozano (Wife of Nicolas de Covarrubias y Velasco).

In looking at the children of Nicolas de Covarrubias and Juana Gonzalez Lozano (They baptized children in Ciudad Guzman and Sayula around the 1650s and 1660s), I found that there was a common couple that were the padrinos for some of their children. Specifically, Francisco Gonzalez Lozano & Isabel de Escobar (Who sometimes used the compound last name of Escobar de Munguia!) Munguia!!! While extremely tantalizing, it doesn't really prove that they were the parents of Mariana Gonzalez Lozano and Juana Gonzalez Lozano (Even if both of these sisters used Gonzalez Lozano and Escobar). Then I remembered that I found a dispensa a while back when working on my Valladoliddispensas.com indexes. The following dispensa provided another crucial clue as to the parents of the Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar sisters...:

Dispensa Matrimonial entre Gaspar Miguel de Covarrubias y Betancur cc Maria Teresa de Munguia y Vilasenor (Tecolotlan, Jalisco Noviembre 11, 1723)

The dispensa details how Gaspar Miguel and Maria Teresa are related by their Munguia ancestry! Here's the breakdown of the parentesco based on clues I have found along this journey. Note that the "Tronco" part is pure conjecture at this point given the compound surname used by Isabel de Escobar Munguia, possible mother of the Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar sisters. It does fit nicely with the timelines and surnames of those involved. One of the witnesses (NOTE: The main witness, Francisco Gonzalez Lozano, states that the tronco is Juan de Munguia which I don't think is right. Most likely too much time had passed to know the real name of the tronco which I suspect to be Hernando de Munguia cc Isabel de Escobar):

Starting with Gaspar Miguel's ancestry:
Tronco: Hernando de Munguia y Villela cc Isabel de Escobar y Ruiz Galindo
Isabel de Munguia Villela y Escobar cc Francisco Gonzalez Lozano
Maria Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar cc Antonio de Covarrubias y Velasco
Francisco de Covarrubias y Gonzalez cc Nicolasa de Betancur y Michel
Gaspar Miguel de Covarrubias y Betancur

Maria Teresa's ancestry:
Tronco: Hernando de Munguia y Villela cc Isabel de Escobar y Ruiz Galindo
Hernando de Munguia Villela y Escobar cc Isabel de Velasco
Antonio de Munguia y Velasco cc Maria de Mollinedo Santa Cruz y Villasenor
Maria Teresa de Munguia y Villasenor

Back to Mariana Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar cc Alonso del Castillo and Juana Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar cc Nicolas de Covarrubias, we know that they are confirmed to be sisters. Going back to the baptisms for Juana and Nicolas' children, Francisco Gonzalez Lozano and Isabel de Escobar Munguia appear as padrinos in one or more of their children. We also see Antonio de Covarrbias and Maria Gonzalez as padrinos for children of Nicolas de Covarrubias and Juana Gonzalez Lozano (and vice-versa). So, I'm leaning on declaring that Juana, Mariana aaaaand Maria were sisters, children of Francisco Lozano Gonzalez cc Isabel de Munguia Escobar (daughter of Hernando and Isabel). I'm also going to throw Gaspar Gonzalez Lozano cc Isabel de la Campa y Orozco as another sibling of their given the padrinos on their children and that Gaspar was of the same generation and place as the sisters.

To sum up, I feel that all this leads to the following conjectures:

Hernando de Munguia Villela cc Isabel de Escobar y Ruiz Galindo were the parents of the following children (Their children would have been born around the 1580s -> 1600s):

Isabel de Munguia Villela y Escobar cc Francisco Gonzalez Lozano
Ana de Escobar y Munguia Villela cc Andres Lopez de Bueso (Confirmed to be a child via the Santo Oficio document)
Hernando de Munguia Villela y Escobar cc Isabel de Velasco

As for the children of Francisco Gonzalez Lozano cc Isabel de Munguia Villela (Their children would have been born around the 1610s -> 1630s in Sayula, Jalisco)

Maria Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar cc Antonio de Covarrubias y Velasco
Juana Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar cc Nicolas de Covarrubias (possible brother of Antonio?)
Mariana Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar cc Alonso del Castillo
Gaspar Gonzalez Lozano y Escobar cc Isabel de la Campa y Orozco

Back to the relationship between Isabel de Escobar cc Hernando de Munguia and Ana Ruiz Galindo y Escobar cc Francisco de Aguilar Solorzano... I suspect them to be daughters of a Ruiz Galindo + Escobar couple. This couple would have had a son named Francisco Ruiz Galindo, brother to Ana and Isabel. (From the Santo Oficio document that calls out that Francisco Ruiz Galindo was an uncle of Ana de Escobar cc Andres Lopez Bueso).

Daniel Serna Valencia

Comentario

I found another dispensa that most likely involves the same Munguia/Gonzalez Lozano/Ruiz Galindo roots:

Dispensa matrimonial entre Pedro Michel y Ana de Covarrubias (Tecolotlan, Jalisco - Julio 7, 1719)

I don't know for sure as it doesn't really dive into the particulars as to what branches of the family were involved. However the dispensa is for "parentesco en cuarto grado de consanguinidad". Here's my attempt to flesh out the parentesco with help from the data I've been uncovering:

Starting with Pedro Michel's ancestry:

Tronco: Hernando de Munguia Villela cc Isabel de Escobar y Ruiz Galindo
Ana de Escobar y Munguia cc Andres Lopez Bueso
Nicolas Lopez Bueso y Munguia cc Nicolasa Guerrero de Ocon
Maria de la Rosa Lopez de Bueso y Ocon cc Salvador Michel Ordones y Betancur
Pedro Michel Ordones y Bueso

Here's Ana de Covarrubias's ancestry:
Tronco: Hernando de Munguia Villela cc Isabel de Escobar y Ruiz Galindo
Isabel de Munguia Escobar cc Francisco Gonzalez Lozano
Maria Gonzalez Lozano y Munguia Escobar cc Antonio de Covarrubias y Velasco
Lucas de Covarrubias y Gonzalez cc Teresa de Guzman y Gomez Garcia
Ana de Covarrubias y Guzman

At least this is what I perceive to be the parentesco. I tried to follow other branches of the families involved and couldn't really find another likely parentesco. This one matches up nicely with the fact that the parentesco was reported to be in the 4th grade.

Daniel Serna Valencia

Comentario

Estimado Daniel:

Te felicito y te agradezco por tu investigación tan exhaustiva y los datos que de ella nos compartes. Has aportado una pista bastante reveladora sobre el origen de los López-Buezo, de la que muchos descendemos. Leí con interés el proceso inquisitorial abierto para el caso de Andrés López-Buezo, y su curiosa relación de los hechos.

En cuanto a algo que pueda aportar al debate, no es nuevo, pero sirve para volver a meditar a la luz de los descubrimientos.

Existe una dispensa, mencionada en el libro de Luz Montejano Hilton, que cita a Nicolás López-Buezo, hijo de Nicolás López-Buezo y Nicolasa Guerrero y Ocón, quien desea contraer nupcias con María de Isla y Araiza, hija de Fernando de Araiza y Antonia Téllez de Aguilar. Se encuentran relacionados por un parentesco de consanguinidad en cuarto grado igual, por ser sus bisabuelas, hermanas legítimas. Fechada en Tecolotlán en 1681.

Sobre los citados Fernando de Araiza y Antonia Téllez de Aguilar no tengo más fuentes contundentes, pero sospecho que el primero es hijo de Juan de Araiza y Medina y María González-Lozano; y la segunda hija de Juan de Aguilar y Solórzano y Mariana Téllez de Herrera. Así, la relación sería improbable por el lado de Juan de Araiza, pues era natural de Vizcaya, hijo de Hernando de Araiza y Medina y María de Guzmán. De los demás no tengo más información sobre su ascendencia.

Habría que trazar la genealogía de la rama Munguía y Escobar para cotejar con las ramas ascendentes de los Aguilar y Solórzano, así como de los Téllez de Herrera.

Ahora bien, puede que exista otra dispensa, ésta de una hermana de Nicolás López-Buezo y Guerrero: Ana María. Ella casa también con un Araiza. Bautizan a un hijo, Santiago, el 13 de Septiembre de 1700 en Tecolotlán. Confío que su dispensa manifieste mayores detalles sobre la relación de parentesco entre sus familias.

Creo que, como dices, Andrés López Buezo es con gran posibilidad el padre de Nicolás López-Buezo. Ojalá podamos encontrar un documento que lo mencione explícitamente. Tal vez la fuente esté en su testamento, pues en su defunción se establece que lo efectuó.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18721-6354-11?cc=1874591&wc=…

Esperemos dilucidar pronto este asunto por completo.

Seguimos con las retroalimentaciones y reitero mi agradecimiento.

Saludos.

Enrique Salvador Agraz Villarreal

Comentario

Buenos Dias Enrique,

Es un placer compartir con ustedes este nuevo descubrimiento. Gracias por tus comentarios y informacion. Me has dado mas pistas que puedo investigar para confirmar si los Lopez Bueso que nosotros conocemos en verdad estan relacionados con este Andres Lopez de Bueso. Ojala que pronto encontremos su testamento!

Gracias y Saludos Cordiales,

Daniel Serna Valencia

Comentario

Hola Daniel y Enrique!

Es un gusto saludarlos otra vez!

Daniel, es todo un hallazgo sobre Andres López Buezo. Busqué en Córdoba y en Antequera pero no hallé nada de que nos brinde más información por ahora.

Sin embargo, quería aportar una pista más sobre los ancestros de Antonia Téllez de Aguilar.
Existe una dispensa de Manuel Capacete y Sebastiana de Pamplona en Autlán. En la dispensa se dice que Juan de Aguilar tuvo a dos hijas, por lo cual el árbol queda así:
Tronco: Juan de Aguilar
Hermanas: Lucía de Aguilar y Antonia de Aguilar

Da. Lucía de Aguilar tuvo a María Vázquez del Alconcher; ésta tuvo a Gertrudis Capacete. Da. Gertrudis Capacete fue madre de Manuel Capacete

Da. Antonia de Aguilar tuvo a María de Isla Araiza y Telles de Aguilar (no es la misma que la esposa de Juan de Araiza y Medina). Pero es la misma que casó con Nicolás López Buezo, hijo a su vez de Nicolás López Buezo y Nicolasa Guerreo y Ocón. Ahora, María de Isa Araiza y Tellez de Aguilar tuvo a por lo menos dos hijas con Nicolás López Bueso: Da. Francisca López Bueso (casada con Ramon García Lascano); y la otra hija fue Manuela López Buezo (casada casada con Nicolás Muños de Pamplona), padres de Sebastiana de Pamplona Lopez Buezo, la presensa de la dispensa.

Por otro lado tengo a Juan de Aguilar Solorzano casado con Luisa de Araiza y Medina con quien tuvo 9 hijos en Aguascalientes (pero ninguna de sus hijas con Luisa se llamaban Lucía o Antonia). Pero bien, pero ésto nos lleva a Aguascalientes.

Allí tengo a Fernando de Araiza teniendo a un hijo en 1660 con Antonia Telles de Aguilar. Ésto último me da a mi la certeza de que éste Fernando en el Hernando de Araiza quien es el hijo de Juan de Araiza y Medina y María de Isla González Lozano, nacido en 1637:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6QQ9-YFX?i=66&wc=68099…

En fin, no sé si Juan de Aguilar sea Juan de Aguilar Solórzano, pero es posible.

Un saludo amigos!

Sergio

Comentario

Hello All,

It's been a while since I started this thread. For the past couple of years I've been collecting clues and I think I'm closer to establishing the link between Nicolas Lopez-Buezo (cc Nicolasa Guerrero de Ocon) and his possible father Andres Lopez-Buezo (cc Ana de Munguia y Escobar).

While no document has yet surfaced that clearly shows that Nicolas is the son of Andres and Ana, there are some clues that help figure this out. The first clue is the dispensa that has already been mentioned before between Nicolas Lopez de Buezo y Guerrero and Maria de Araiza Isla y Aguilar:

Dispensa Matrimonial de Nicolas Lopez de Buezo y Maria de Araiza y Isla (Tecolotlan, Jalisco, Mexico - 3 Agosto, 1681)

Unfortunately, the dispensa doesn't (clearly) state how the consanguinity applies to the bride and groom. It's only mentions that the "bisabuelas" of the bride and groom were sisters. If we look at the parents of those involved, they are:

Nicolas is the son of Nicolas Lopez de Buezo and Nicolasa Guerrero de Ocon
Maria de Araiza Islas y Aguilar is the daughter of Hernando/Fernando de Araiza Medina y Isla and Antonia Telles de Aguilar y Quevedo

Let's pretend that the Nicolas Lopez de Buezo cc Nicolasa Guerrero de Ocon was indeed the son of Andres Lopez de Buezo and Ana de Munguia Escobar, then we know Andres came from Spain. Ana de Munguia Escobar was the daugther of Hernando de Munguia and Isabel de Escobar as mentioned in the "Demanda de la Santa Inquisicion" I mentioned earlier in this thread. Isabel de Escobar is afflilated with the Ruiz Galindo-Escobar family as she's the niece of Francisco Ruiz Galindo also mentioned in the Inquisition document. So, the supposed family tree for the groom in the above dispensa would be the following:

Tronco: Familia Ruiz Galindo y Escobar
Isabel de Escobar cc Hernando de Munguia
Ana de Munguia Escobar cc Andres Lopez de Buezo
Nicolas Lopez de Buezo y Munguia cc Nicolasa Guerrero de Ocon
Nicolas Lopez de Buezco y Guerrero

Now for the bride it's mentioned that her parents were Fernando de Araiza Medina and Antonia Telles de Aguilar y Quevedo. The "parentesco" is unlikely to come from the Araiza Medina side of the family because there was no dispensa called for or needed in the following marriage:

Matrimonio de Juan de Araiza Medina y Castillo y Ana Lopez de Buezo y Guerrero (Tecolotlan, Jalisco, Mexico - 3 Octubre 1691)

In this marriage, Juan was the son of Juan de Araiza Medina y Islas and Maria del Castillo. Ana Lopez de Buezo y Guerrero was the daughter of Nicolas Lopez de Buezo and Nicolasa Guerrero de Ocon.

So, between these two documents we know that the parentesco from the dispensa above is NOT through the Araiza Medina. That means that the bride's parentesco has to come from her mother Antonia Telles de Aguilar y Quevedo. Antonia Telles de Aguilar y Quevedo was the daughter of Juan de Aguilar Solorzano and Mariana Telles de Herrera y Quevedo. I know this because Hernando and Antonia, aside from being the parents of Maria de Araiza y Isla, they were the parents of a priest named Juan de Ariaza Medina y Aguilar. Here's his information when he filed the necessary paperwork to start his religious life:

Moribus et Vita del Br. Juan de Araiza Medina y Aguilar (Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico 1688)

In that information, the witnesses confirm that Antonia Telles de Aguilar y Quevedo was the daughter of Juan de Aguilar Solorzano and one of his two wives, i.e. his first wife Mariana Telles de Herrera y Quevedo.

Aside from the above document, we can reference another where Br. Juan de Araiza Medina collected on a "capellania" established by Andres Martinez de Quevedo, brother of Juan's great-grandfather Antonio Martinez de Quevedo. In this capellania, we discover that Mariana Telles de Herrera y Quevedo (cc Juan de Aguilar Solorzano) was the daughter of Antonio Martinez de Quevedo and Mariana Telles de Herrera:

Capellania que fundo Andres Martinez de Quevedo (Guadalajara, Jalisco, Mexico)

With this we now have a better idea of Antonia Telles de Aguilar y Quevedo's maternal roots:

Antonio Martinez de Quevedo cc Mariana Telles de Herrera (Could be related to Diego Telles de Herrera cc Luisa Nunez de Quevedo? Sister of Diego?)
Mariana Telles de Herrera y Quevedo cc Juan de Aguilar Solorzano
Antonia Telles de Aguilar y Quevedo cc Fernando de Araiza Medina y Islas

This Quevedo/Telles de Aguilar doesn't seem to lead to any possible connections to the Ruiz Galindo/Escobar tronco I mentioned before. Given this, we now need to focus on Juan de Aguilar Solorzano's ancestry. This is a bit tough given that Juan de Aguilar Solorzano (married twice, first to Mariana Telles de Herrera y Quevedo and then to Luisa de Araiza Medina y Islas). Per all the information I found related to Juan, it seems that he was a resident of Sayula, Jalisco when he was married to Mariana Telles de Herrera y Quevedo. When he married Luisa de Araiza Medina, he became a resident of Aguascalientes. In Sayula, there indeed was an Aguilar Solorzano family that lived there in the early 1600s. That was the family of Francisco de Aguilar Solorzano cc Ana Ruiz Galindo. We know this based on some of his children:

Matrimonio de Francisco de Aguilar Solorzano y Ruiz y Isabel de la Cruz Rodriguez (Cajitlan, Colima, Mexico - 31 Enero, 1661)
Moribus et Vita del Br. Nicolas de Aguilar Solorzano y Ruiz (Sayula, Jalisco, Mexico - 22 Septiembre, 1649)

In the information for Br. Nicolas de Aguilar Solorzano, we find out that his father Francisco was the son Captain Juan de Aguilar Solorzano - resident of Colima, Colima, Mexico. We also find out that Francisco had a brother who was a priest named Alvaro de Aguilar Solorzano and that this family's roots were in Colima. No further information is mentioned about this family nor do we find any further information on the Ruiz Galindo side of the family. I have seen some family trees reference Ana Ruiz Galindo as including the last name of Escobar. Let's suppose that's true and we go back to the dispensa mentioned above between Nicolas and Maria. The family tree for the Maria de Araiza Islas y Aguilar would looke like the following:

Tronco: Ruiz Galindo y Escobar
Ana Ruiz Galindo cc Francisco de Aguilar Solorzano
Juan de Aguilar Solorzano cc Mariana Telles de Herrera y Quevedo
Antonia Telles de Herrera y Quevedo cc Fernando de Araiza Medina y Islas
Maria de Araiza Islas y Aguilar

In conclusion the "parentesco" between Nicolas and Maria is most likely on the Ruiz Galindo/Escobar side and it would also confirm that Andres Lopez Buezo cc Ana de Munguia Escobar were the parents of Nicolas Lopez de Buezo cc Nicolasa Guerrero de Ocon.

I'll continue to search for more clues/documents that confirm this with 100% certainty but it seems that early 1600s documents for the early provinces of Avalos, Amula, Autlan, etc. are sparse. I'm looking through the Notarial archives of Guadalajara to see if I can find any further clues as I know Ana Ruiz Galindo cc Francisco de Aguilar Solorzano established a capellania around 1649 or so when Francisco died (I couldn't find any capellania however, but I didn't look too closely)

Regardless, I hope this information helps and thank you for reading this far!

Saludos,

Daniel Serna Valencia

Comentario

Daniel,

I find you suggestions very interesting. I do have a question though. Reading both the Vita e Moribus of Juan de Araiza Medina Aguilar and the Capellania of Andres de Quevedo, I was not able to corroborate who the mother of Antonia Téllez de Aguilar Solórzano y Quevedo is. I did find her father, as Juan de Aguilar Solórzano and that he was married twice, once to Luisa de Araiza, daughter of Juan de Araiza Medina I, and Maria de Isla Lozano. His second wife is the woman I cannot identify. It also clearly gives her grandfather as Antonio de Quevedo. Interestingly this testimony is given by Francisco de Velasco y Zúñiga, who says he was married to a Luisa de Quevedo, and I think was probably the same one as was later married to Elvira de Guzmán.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-DG9Z-Z8?i=290&cc=18745…
Can you point me to the image that gives the name of the mother of Antonia de (Telles) Aguilar (Solórzano) y Quevedo?

I may have more to contribute y once I have a chance to pour through the other documents.

Thanks!

Sergio

Comentario

Thank you for your reply Sergio. Unfortunately, I don't have a link to a document that clearly states the name of Juan de Aguilar Solorzano's first wife. Witnesses in the capellania did confirm that Juan de Aguilar was married twice. It's inferred given that Juan and Mariana had a child named Pedro de Aguilar Solorzano who married twice (1st to Gertrudis de Araiza Medina and second to Ana Diaz de Corona). Aside from that no other clue/document states Mariana's name as Juan's first wife.

Comentario

Daniel,

I am continuing to try to trace these lines with you and confirm what you have found by comparing to the primary sources I have.

The link you give for the Vita e Moribus of Nicolás de Aguilar Solórzano seems like is the same one for the Info Matrimonial for Francisco de Aguilar listed above. Could you please repost the link only for the Vita e Moribus?

I also wanted to thank you, because I had been searching for the ordination papers of Lic. Juan de Araiza Medina y Aguilar, and you did! He was a priest in the 1690s in Autlan and I had been trying to figure out how he fit into the picture to my ancestor Juan de Araiza y Medina Guzmán (?-1665). Interestingly his parents Fernando/Hernando de Araiza y Medina Lozano and Antonia Telles de Aguilar Solórzano y Quevedo had a first son Juan who died in infancy. But your vita y moribus proves they had two different Juans. This is the first

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-68J3-H69?i=183&wc=6809…

But then he died in 1662:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6S67-8DM?i=82&cc=15024…

The second becomes the Bachiller and later Licenciado.

Thanks!

Sergio

Comentario

Woops, looks like a bad copy and paste. Here's the link to the information for Br. Nicolas de Aguilar Solorzano: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-DVBD-R?i=301&wc=3JWL-YWG%3A171935001%2C171974101%2C179907901%3Fcc%3D1874591&cc=1874591

I'm glad you found the Moribus et Vita for el Lic. Juan de Araiza Medina y Aguilar useful. It was not easy to track down. I had to go through some of the books by hand as his name wasn't indexed properly in the Guadalajara Dispensas.

Regards,

Daniel

Comentario

Daniel,

Very quick question(before I try to post some more clues on the Ruiz Galindo line). On image 306 of the Vita e Moribus of Nicolás de Aguilar Solórzano, it gives his paternal grandfather as Cap. Juan de Aguilar Solórzano from the city of Colima. But the third witness also says that he knew "Fulano Galindo" maternal grandfather of Nicolás. Do you think this was his actual name, or more likely a fill-in name, but that his last name was Galindo? In modern Spanish, people will say "conocí a fulano de tal" which in English would be equivalent to "I knew so and so." Thoughts?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-DVBZ-W?i=305&wc=3JWL-Y…

Thanks!

Sergio

Comentario

Hello Sergio,

I think the “fulano” most likely referred to someone whose last name was Galindo but they couldn’t remember the first/full name.

Regards,

Daniel

Comentario

Dear Daniel,
I can contribute a few things the Ruiz Galindo puzzle. There (as usual) appear to be multiple people (at least 3) with the same name around the same time.
In 1691 a Juan Ruiz Galindo (C) presented a marriage request along with his future father in Law Nicolás Caro y Rentería to marry Caro´s daughter María Caro y Rentería.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSXG-DWPV-D?i=128&cat=…

The interesting thing about this, is that I already had both of them in my tree and had found their marriage, but could not prove who the parents were. Now we know. This document gives this Juan Ruiz Galindo’s parents as Antonio Ruiz Galindo and Sebastiana de la Campa, from Zapotitlán. I did not know about this older couple. Juan Ruiz Galindo (C ) also gives his age as 26, which places his birth around 1665. Unfortunately, it looks like Zapotitlán does not have older records, so that I likely a dead end wihtou other documents housed in Guadalajara (which is always possible).

Second, in an older capellanía document, from 1678, Juana Corona, daughter of Hernán González Corona and Inés de Tapia y Aguayo, and widow of yet another Juan Ruiz Galindo (A) (?-1678 ) made a capellanía.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-663N-ZH?i=179&wc=3J49-…

In it we learn of several of their children: Juan Ruiz Galindo (B) (image 182), Francisco Ruiz Galindo (image 181), Sebastian Ruiz Galindo (image 184), a brother in law Antonio Ruiz Galindo (and therefore brother of her dead husband Juan). I believe it is this Antonio Ruiz Galindo, brother in law to Juana that is the father of the Juan Ruiz Galindo (C ) mentioned, married to Maria Caro y Rentería. I have found the marriage of this Juan Ruiz Galindo (A) and Juana Corona in Autlan 1 Jul 1647. This would probably make them both be born at the latest in the 1630s, but possibly in the 1620s.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-VL52-Z?i=121&cc=1874591

Finally, the last document I have to offer is the will of Juan Ruiz Galindo y Corona (B) in 1701.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9392-DP5N-D?i=19&wc=3JWB-JWL%3A…

Hope this helps us disentangle the maze of the Ruiz Galindo line. I also wonder if they may be related to the Caro Galindo line that is older.

Regards,

Sergio

Comentario

Thank you very much for sharing this information Sergio. It does indeed help to untangle some of the Ruiz Galindo web. We're missing a lot of early information on this family. There certainly is a lack of records for Zapotitlan, Tuxcacuesco, Sayula, etc. which is where they appear to have lived and baptized their children.

I have found a couple of interesting tidbits I'd like to share:

There was a couple in Autlan that baptized their children around the 1660s and 1670s: Juan Tello de Grajeda (Tello de Sandoval y Grajeda) cc Mariana Corona (who sometimes used the surname of Ruiz de Castro). The parents of Mariana appear to be Diego Gonzalez de Corona cc Mariana Ruiz Galindo. The "Castro" is certainly interesting and might be a clue as to the earlier roots of the Ruiz Galindo family.

I also found an index listing pertaining to a Santo Oficio document where a person by the name of "Luis Galindo de Escobar" was interviewed by the Santo Oficio in Sayula on 11/27/1624:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSD2-CGD5

Unfortunately, the document was not microfilmed so I can't see what was said/recorded. However, it's a clue that the Ruiz Galindo lived in Sayula, in the early 1600s. I'll keep sharing info as I find it.

Best,

Daniel

Website Money Needed

Published by makas_nc –
Foros
History, Culture and General Discussion

ok the website has needed to be updated for a few years now as the Drupal is way out of date.

Comentarios

Comentario

Joseph Puentes
PO Box 72524
Durham, NC 27722

Make sure to include a return address so I can return your letter if I don't have 30 people donate

Comentario

I, too, would like to know if you received enough donations? This website has been so valuable to expanding my knowledge about my family, I would hate to think it ceases to exist because donations weren't forthcoming. Elisa

Comentario

Joseph,

I noticed the date on your request as 9-21-2021. Is this another request for donations?

Count me again Joseph if it is.

George Esqueda

Suscribirse a