Los Altos -Mulatos ??

Hola Linda , I understand that the Espanoles kept to themselves but by looking at the records ,there are tons of Mulatos to the point( I think) there could of been some Mulato Groups/colonies/Individ

Comentarios

Comentario

In Mexico a least, the denomination of mulato was given to many different racial mixes, not just those coming from african-erupean couples. investigating all the family members with this denominations lets us know many times what was the actual background, in many cases there where simply mestizos, but my theory is that their european side (spanish in this case) was likely a mix of it with arab/jew/indu and or the mix of any of these, also I come to believe that many mestizos of darker skin where called mulatos, I've seen families of "coyotes" often called mulatos. If we take in account that many "spanish" where in fact mix already with the arabs, africans and other races, we come to a fact that after the conversion there were many dark-skined spanish, I would suggest these where some of those later called in Mexico mulatos too.

Another important fact is that the way of denomination doesn't follow the "cast rules" this is that the child of an spanish and a native would not necessarily be called mestizo, sometimes they where also called "indio", spanish, coyote, mulato, etc. same goes for other combinations and thus in real practice, the cast denomination was used more like an physical description rather than an accurate biological race study. We also see many people who are denominated differently in each of their records.

Some reason why this "many" mulatos "disappear" was because they never existed as such in first place, obviously the facts changes by case.

RJ Quiralta

Comentario

Ronnie,

I was reading a book on Mexican history (can't remember which one right now)
that was saying that the various revolutions took many of the indios and
mulatos, and those that were left were not enough to work the haciendas. I
image that could account for a good number.

And, I think that the term "espanol" is often misunderstood. I have seen so
many lines where there is a mixed marriage and then a couple generations
later they are "espanoles" again.

Just my two pesos :)

-Angelina-

-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Reynoso
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 2:14 PM
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Los Altos -Mulatos ??

Hola Linda , I understand that the Espanoles kept to themselves but by
looking at the records ,there are tons of Mulatos to the point( I think)
there could of been some Mulato Groups/colonies/Individuals still around, It
looks like they were magicians and went poof,gone . For in example :I was
told by a distant relative who lived in El Rancho del Refugio (between
San Miguel el Alto, San Jose de Los Reynoso and San Julian
area(Jalisco),that a Rancho named La Puerta del Sauz(de Ramirez) that there
200 Slaves housed/lived there. I believe it was probably around 1800 give or
take a few years. Well I still ponder where did these guys go or what
happened to them. I don' t know ,maybe they just inter married I guess.
Ronnie

Comentario

well i've seen cases where someone had one amerindian parents and one 'espanol' parent and all their kids were marked as 'espanol'. more often i just see some of the kids marked as espanol and the rest marked as 'indio', 'mestizo' etc.

Comentario

Hi Ronnie,
I'm not sure what year, but probably about 1810 (around revolutionary times), there must have been an effort to stop racial labeling on official
and church documents. I have even seen people referred to as "cuidadano" on civil baptismal records.
I've come across that all over Mexico just about then. I wonder if that has anything to do with it?
Alice
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 12/19/14, Ronald Reynoso wrote:

Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Los Altos -Mulatos ??
To: "general@nuestrosranchos.org"
Date: Friday, December 19, 2014, 4:14 PM

Hola Linda , I understand that the
Espanoles kept to themselves but by looking at the records
,there are tons of Mulatos to the point( I  think)
there could of been some Mulato Groups/colonies/Individuals
still around, It looks like they were magicians and went
poof,gone .  For in example :I was told by a distant
relative who lived in   El Rancho del 
Refugio (between  San Miguel el Alto, San Jose de Los
Reynoso and San Julian area(Jalisco),that a Rancho named La
Puerta del Sauz(de Ramirez) that there 200 Slaves
housed/lived there. I believe it was probably around 1800
give or take a few years. Well I still ponder where did
these guys go or what happened to them. I don' t know ,maybe
they just inter married I guess.
Ronnie
   
        
          
 

Comentario

An ancestor of mine from Jalostotitlan is identified in his marriage record as being mulato libre. At first I found it hard to believe because my father has blue eyes and the the "whitest" skin of anyone that I've met and that includes Scandinavians. My father received his skin color from his mother that did not have a mulato ancestor. This mulato ancestor is from my fathers paternal grandmother' line. He left many descendents in the Jalostotitlan area. This mulato ancestor of mine married a blonde blue eyed espanola in 1750. I expected him to be half espanol and half black but further research led me to find that his mother is listed as espanol and his father is listed not as black but also mulato libre. He was not a black slave. This line dead ends in teocaltiche Jalisco . The record clearly states mulato libre so being mulato in the late 1600's in Mexico did not mean that you were a slave and did stop espanoles with blue eyes from marrying them.
R.A.Ricci

Comentario

The children of female slaves were born into slavery no matter who the father was. If a male slave married a mulata libre, india, mestiza, or coyote then the children were born free. As already mentioned the records weren't always accurate when identifying a caste and they were based on looks, manner of speech, and where a person lived. However, if you follow the ancestries close enough there are plenty of families that the members are called mulato libre or mulata libre for four or five generations and they lived in ranchos that were known to have a large population of mulatos. Some would marry mestizos, some indios, and a few would marry españoles. Over time they would lose the mulato label and simply become mestizos, indios, castizos, tresalbas, or españoles. There were some families still called mulatos though.

Slavery and the caste system was done away with the independence of Mexico in 1821 but some parishes continued the practice of the caste system for several years. Once it stopped everyone started to be called a ciudadano. The people that had been called mulatos were now called ciudadano like everyone else and there is a noticeable difference in mixing the castes at that point. One hundred and ninety years later most people are a mix. Some with more mulato ancestry than others but most people have at least one in their ancestry. The people that have more mulatos in their ancestry generally have more African DNA than the average Mexican which has more African DNA than the average Spaniard but less than the average person from the Caribbean where they had more slaves.

Armando

Frustration! Mulato or Español?

Just venting.

Comentarios

i just found this incestuous marriage records

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18426-25517-16?cc=1874591&wc…

i thought it was illegal for someone to marry their niece.

Comentarios

Comentario

There is nothing incestuous here, as surprising as it might seems for us in this days. On one side, the word incest itself do not imply only consanguineous relationship, although it was later taught in that way, hence its actual meaning, in the old days (including the Bible times when marrying within the family was the norm for some cultures) it actually refer to an illicit relationship within the family, this is without contentment, premarriage or when involving affairs. The Catholic church actually had follow this concept for the longest but the latter puritan influences (specially those of the USA) had turn the eyes away from this even if some type of relationships still legal (and pretty much natural like cousin marriages) on many countries, that including Mexico. The rules where also carefully made in order no to affect people of power and wealth to whom consanguineous relationships where no just common but politically and economically important, there are some lines that where never crossed though, but all in all cousins and uncle/aun-niece-nephew marriages where possible and totally legal with the "dispensas" which in turn where nothing but another way of making income to the church, like if a document would erase any genetic trace. :)

RJ Quiralta

Comentario

Rj Quiralta is correct in the original meaning of an incestuous relationship is different than our present common understanding or perception. In my research, I was surprised to discover that someone's parents had been accused of an incestuous relationship when there was no biological relationship between the spouses. This accusation was hidden in church documents that Were misplaced after their discovery and the church can't find them anymore. The claim is that when putting them back into their file there was a mistake and have just been misfiled. It turns out that the couple had their first two children before marriage. The father of the two children was a priest at the time of their birth and was allowed to leave the church and marry. The family later tried to hide the circumstances and dates so that it would seem as the kids were born after the priest's separation from the church.

In a different case:
It was only through an uncle and niece marriage that I was able to identify the uncles parents since prominent genealogist like Jaime Holcomb and Mariano Gonzalez Leal incorrectly listed this ancestor of mine as Dead at an early age. The dispensations that followed from grandchildren marrying relatives uncover this relationship. I wonder if there was a rift in the family because of this marriage and that is why the uncle was written off as being dead at an early age.
R.A.Ricci

Map of Villa Nuestra Senora Purificacion and ranchos (Fresnillo, Zacatecas, Mexico?)

Found this map called, Villa Nuestra Senora de Purificacion and also with surrounding ranchos. When I was looking at the names of the ranchos they look familiar.

Comentarios

Microfilm No. 169026 Testamentos (1659 - 1843)

Today I justed started scrolling through the beginning of Testamentos Microfilm year 1659 - 1843. Starts out year 1675 Tecolotlan. I am impressed with how clear, neatly written the documents are.

Comentarios

Comentario

Does it have an index or anything such that it would say what towns are included?

I have thought of ordering this film as well, because it might shed some light where the church records go cold.

Thanks!

Sergio Salés

Calvillo, Macías, Ponce, Vásquez, Garcia

Hello everyone,

My name is Christopher de Cuéllar and I'm very new to geneaology and very new to the group. I've only been doing geneaology for about a month.

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi Bill, Christopher and everybody in this group.

I want to share you what I've learned about the cases of "hijo de padres no conocidos".

In my case, my 5th great grandfather, Don Luis de Agraz, was listed in his marriage record as "español, hijo de padres no conocidos y de niño expuesto en la casa de Don José Lino de Agraz" this means that apparently he was adopted. The woman with whom he married was suposed to be his first cousin, Doña María Valentina de la Cueva y Ramírez de Prado, but a dispensa wasn't required because he was not the son of Doña Juana Mauricia de la Cueva y Benavides, José Lino's wife.

Okay, so at this moment I thought that was the end of my most important branch in my family tree because it's my first surname. When I checked, the book that my uncle Gabriel had written about my family, I saw that he was able to find the baptismal record of Luis. He was listed as "Luis Dionisio Rafael, español, de dos días de nacido, hijo de padres no conocidos y fueron sus padrinos Don José Lino de Agraz y Doña Juana Mauricia de la Cueva". On the same page there were other cases of children listed as hijos de padres no conocidos, but the priest couldn't precise the date of their birth he wrote down things such as "al parecer de 10 días de nacido" or he didn't write down the number of days the child had.

My uncle Gabriel,still listed Luis as a legitimate son of José Lino in the book, but I suposed that since the book was printed in 1950's and he died in 2009 he could have found the real parents of Luis. When I talked some months ago with one of Gabriel's sons also interested in Genealogy and History, he told me that his father had told him that Luis was an illegitimate son of a woman of the Agraz family with a lower class man and he was given to the care of his uncles. This is the most coherent answer to the case, because of many reasons. Luis was very close to his Agraz family, proof of this are the godparents of his children that were uncles of him from the Agraz side. Also, he received inheritance from his adoptive father and wasn't discriminated for being adopted because he was also the regidor alcalde of Tecolotlán some years before the independence of Mexico. His appearence would be known by latter generations because he ordered to be protrayed by oil painting, and his descendance was the most illustrious among the Agraz family, having graduates, poets, engineers, etc. in his sons, grandsons and beyond.

Other case, of "hijo de padres no conocidos" is the next dispensa:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18412-58699-28?cc=1874591&wc…

In the first page (120) Juan de Contreras states to be "hijo de padres no conocidos" and he wanted to marry Simona Preciado. Witnesses declared they were cousins and in page 123 he then declared the truth about his parents so he was the natural son of Don Martín de Bejarano and Ana de Contreras, he got his surname because of his mother's one, apparently the same case of Luis de Agraz.

Certainly is a little bit disappointing having hijo de padres no conocidos in your ancestors because for some reason they didn't want us to know who their parents really were, when all the people in the town already knew, especially for a prominent family such as the Agraz, the case of Luis was probably the gossip of the town hahaha.

Hope this helps you, any other experience form you in this case would be really appreciated.

Enrique Agraz

Comentario

Christopher,

I just found the "Información Matrimonial" for Francisco Xavier Calvillo and María Michaela Macías, which include their declarations as well as those of three witnesses who knew them well. It confirms that Francisco Xavier Calvillo was "hijo de padres no conocidos" and that the parents of María Michaela Macías were Juan de Santiago [Macías] and María Gertrudis Gómez. Notice that Francisco Xavier and María Michaela declared to be 21 and 18 years old respectively, so they were born ca. 1732 and 1735. These dates will help you in your research. The link is as follows:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-11707-152264-60?cc=1410092…

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Figueroa
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos]Calvillo, Macías, Ponce, Vásquez, Garcia

Christopher,

I almost missed your message because you sent it under a different subject line. It is important to use the same subject unless you really intend to change it. Anyway, I used cut-and-paste to add your comments to the thread below.

In answer to your question, I seriously doubt that you'll be able to identify the parents of Francisco Xavier Calvillo. Most of the time "hijo de padres no conocidos" indicates that the person was an adopted child and that he/she is using the surname of the adoptive parents. But don't give up, sometimes adopted children are mentioned in the final will and testament of their adoptive parents or godparents. I've seen many examples of this.

You should have better luck with the ancestors of María Michaela Macías, especially when you consider that her parents are mentioned in her marriage record, i.e. Juan de Santiago Macías and María Gertrudis Gómez, Good luck with your research !!

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----

From: iChristopher94526@yahoo.com
To: bill_figueroa@usa.net
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 5:50 PM
Subject: Fwd: Research Digest, Vol 84, Issue 5

Wow, thank you very much Mr. Figueroa, I greatly appreciate your assistance. It helps a tremendous amount. Do you think there will ever be a way to determine his parents or do you think that may be the end of the line?

Christopher

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Figueroa
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos]Calvillo, Macías, Ponce, Vásquez, Garcia

Hello Christopher,

First of all, welcome to the group. I'm sure in this forum you'll find many people with excellent knowledge of genealogy willing to help you. Unfortunately, my research has been focused on the founders and early settlers of Aguascalientes, so I don't have all the information you're looking for. However, I did find the marriage record for Francisco Xavier Calvillo and María Michaela Macías (Matrimonios 1750-1755, Images 134-135 of 246) which mentions who their parents were. The link is

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-13033-120401-21?cc=1410092…

In this record, the parents of Francisco Xavier Calvillo are said to be unknown (hijo de padres no conocidos) which suggests that he may've been an illegitimate child. The parents of María Michaela Macías are listed as Juan de Santiago and María Gertrudis Gómez. Both Francisco Xavier and María Michaela are said to be "españoles" living in Aguascalientes at the time of their marriage.

I've identified five children for this couple: Joseph Santiago (b.1756), Juan Antonio Esteban (b.1759), María Francisca Telésfora (b.1770), Luisa Antonia (b.1772) and María Dionisia de los Dolores Calvillo (b.1775). Hope this helps.

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----
From: iChristopher94526@yahoo.com
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 6:13 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Calvillo, Macías, Ponce, Vásquez, Garcia

Hello everyone,

My name is Christopher de Cuéllar and I'm very new to geneaology and very new to the group. I've only been doing geneaology for about a month. My father died when I was very young so I never really knew much about my ancestors. That's probably why I started becoming interested in geneaology. I'm currently in high school and am trying to accomplish as much research during the winter break as possible. Mainly, spending all my free time pulling records I can find on family search. Also, if there's anyone that could assist in occasionally translating records for me, I would really appreciate it. I have dyslexia which really hasn't been a problem for me lately, but for some reason the ancient cursive writing on marriage and baptism records gives me a problem.

I'm currently researching my ancestors the Calvillo, Macías and Ponce families from Aguascalientes and the Vásquez and Garcia families from Guadalajara, Jalisco. Right now, I'm mainly interested in Francisco Xavier Calvillo that married María Michaela Macías at El Sagrario, Aguascalientes on 24 May 1753 and their ancestors. Also, interested in Gregorio Ponce that married María Gertrudis Rangel on 6 Feb 1796 and their ancestors.

In Guadalajara, the only record I have for my Vásquez ancestor is Miguel Vasquez born 29 Sept 1896 in Guadalajara and baptised on 19 Oct 1896 at Iglesia Parroquial de Jesus, Guadalajara. On his baptism it lists his parents as Cecilio Vásquez and Flora Garcia and his paternal grandparents as Leonardo Vásquez and Susana Garcia. It lists his maternal grandparents as Sinforiano Garcia and Donaciana Vejar. I'm especially looking for information on them.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance."

Christopher de Cuéllar

Comentario

Christopher:

There is a similar case of Francisco Xavier, Is Augustin Manuel Calvillo, son of "Padres no conocidos", but according to a descendant of his, was probably the illegitimate son of one of the priests surnamed Calvillo, who were very influential in this region at their time.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-266-12048-124774-65?cc=1410092…

Lo que das fructifica. Lo que te guardas se pudre.
Miguel Beltran

Comentario

Wow, that's very interesting. And, kind of creepy at the same time. I have noticed lots of priests with that name during my search through records. I wonder if my calvillo could be a brother of Augustin Manuel Calvillo? They'd have been born roughly around the same time.

Christopher

Comentario

Hello Christopher,

First of all, welcome to the group. I'm sure in this forum you'll find many people with excellent knowledge of genealogy willing to help you. Unfortunately, my research has been focused on the founders and early settlers of Aguascalientes, so I don't have all the information you're looking for. However, I did find the marriage record for Francisco Xavier Calvillo and María Michaela Macías (Matrimonios 1750-1755, Images 134-135 of 246) which mentions who their parents were. The link is

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-13033-120401-21?cc=1410092…

In this record, the parents of Francisco Xavier Calvillo are said to be unknown (hijo de padres no conocidos) which suggests that he may've been an illegitimate child. The parents of María Michaela Macías are listed as Juan de Santiago and María Gertrudis Gómez. Both Francisco Xavier and María Michaela are said to be "españoles" living in Aguascalientes at the time of their marriage.

I've identified five children for this couple: Joseph Santiago (b.1756), Juan Antonio Esteban (b.1759), María Francisca Telésfora (b.1770), Luisa Antonia (b.1772) and María Dionisia de los Dolores Calvillo (b.1775). Hope this helps.

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----
From: iChristopher94526@yahoo.com
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 6:13 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Calvillo, Macías, Ponce, Vásquez, Garcia

Hello everyone,

My name is Christopher de Cuéllar and I'm very new to geneaology and very new to the group. I've only been doing geneaology for about a month. My father died when I was very young so I never really knew much about my ancestors. That's probably why I started becoming interested in geneaology. I'm currently in high school and am trying to accomplish as much research during the winter break as possible. Mainly, spending all my free time pulling records I can find on family search. Also, if there's anyone that could assist in occasionally translating records for me, I would really appreciate it. I have dyslexia which really hasn't been a problem for me lately, but for some reason the ancient cursive writing on marriage and baptism records gives me a problem.

I'm currently researching my ancestors the Calvillo, Macías and Ponce families from Aguascalientes and the Vásquez and Garcia families from Guadalajara, Jalisco. Right now, I'm mainly interested in Francisco Xavier Calvillo that married María Michaela Macías at El Sagrario, Aguascalientes on 24 May 1753 and their ancestors. Also, interested in Gregorio Ponce that married María Gertrudis Rangel on 6 Feb 1796 and their ancestors.

In Guadalajara, the only record I have for my Vásquez ancestor is Miguel Vasquez born 29 Sept 1896 in Guadalajara and baptised on 19 Oct 1896 at Iglesia Parroquial de Jesus, Guadalajara. On his baptism it lists his parents as Cecilio Vásquez and Flora Garcia and his paternal grandparents as Leonardo Vásquez and Susana Garcia. It lists his maternal grandparents as Sinforiano Garcia and Donaciana Vejar. I'm especially looking for information on them.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance."

Christopher de Cuéllar

Comentario

Christopher,

I almost missed your message because you sent it under a different subject line. It is important to use the same subject unless you really intend to change it. Anyway, I used cut-and-paste to add your comments to the thread below.

In answer to your question, I seriously doubt that you'll be able to identify the parents of Francisco Xavier Calvillo. Most of the time "hijo de padres no conocidos" indicates that the person was an adopted child and that he/she is using the surname of the adoptive parents. But don't give up, sometimes adopted children are mentioned in the final will and testament of their adoptive parents or godparents. I've seen many examples of this.

You should have better luck with the ancestors of María Michaela Macías, especially when you consider that her parents are mentioned in her marriage record, i.e. Juan de Santiago Macías and María Gertrudis Gómez, Good luck with your research !!

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----

From: iChristopher94526@yahoo.com
To: bill_figueroa@usa.net
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 5:50 PM
Subject: Fwd: Research Digest, Vol 84, Issue 5

Wow, thank you very much Mr. Figueroa, I greatly appreciate your assistance. It helps a tremendous amount. Do you think there will ever be a way to determine his parents or do you think that may be the end of the line?

Christopher

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Figueroa
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2013 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos]Calvillo, Macías, Ponce, Vásquez, Garcia

Hello Christopher,

First of all, welcome to the group. I'm sure in this forum you'll find many people with excellent knowledge of genealogy willing to help you. Unfortunately, my research has been focused on the founders and early settlers of Aguascalientes, so I don't have all the information you're looking for. However, I did find the marriage record for Francisco Xavier Calvillo and María Michaela Macías (Matrimonios 1750-1755, Images 134-135 of 246) which mentions who their parents were. The link is

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-13033-120401-21?cc=1410092…

In this record, the parents of Francisco Xavier Calvillo are said to be unknown (hijo de padres no conocidos) which suggests that he may've been an illegitimate child. The parents of María Michaela Macías are listed as Juan de Santiago and María Gertrudis Gómez. Both Francisco Xavier and María Michaela are said to be "españoles" living in Aguascalientes at the time of their marriage.

I've identified five children for this couple: Joseph Santiago (b.1756), Juan Antonio Esteban (b.1759), María Francisca Telésfora (b.1770), Luisa Antonia (b.1772) and María Dionisia de los Dolores Calvillo (b.1775). Hope this helps.

BILL FIGUEROA

----- Original Message -----
From: iChristopher94526@yahoo.com
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 6:13 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Calvillo, Macías, Ponce, Vásquez, Garcia

Hello everyone,

My name is Christopher de Cuéllar and I'm very new to geneaology and very new to the group. I've only been doing geneaology for about a month. My father died when I was very young so I never really knew much about my ancestors. That's probably why I started becoming interested in geneaology. I'm currently in high school and am trying to accomplish as much research during the winter break as possible. Mainly, spending all my free time pulling records I can find on family search. Also, if there's anyone that could assist in occasionally translating records for me, I would really appreciate it. I have dyslexia which really hasn't been a problem for me lately, but for some reason the ancient cursive writing on marriage and baptism records gives me a problem.

I'm currently researching my ancestors the Calvillo, Macías and Ponce families from Aguascalientes and the Vásquez and Garcia families from Guadalajara, Jalisco. Right now, I'm mainly interested in Francisco Xavier Calvillo that married María Michaela Macías at El Sagrario, Aguascalientes on 24 May 1753 and their ancestors. Also, interested in Gregorio Ponce that married María Gertrudis Rangel on 6 Feb 1796 and their ancestors.

In Guadalajara, the only record I have for my Vásquez ancestor is Miguel Vasquez born 29 Sept 1896 in Guadalajara and baptised on 19 Oct 1896 at Iglesia Parroquial de Jesus, Guadalajara. On his baptism it lists his parents as Cecilio Vásquez and Flora Garcia and his paternal grandparents as Leonardo Vásquez and Susana Garcia. It lists his maternal grandparents as Sinforiano Garcia and Donaciana Vejar. I'm especially looking for information on them.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance."

Christopher de Cuéllar

Comentario

Hello Christopher and Bill,

Do you have any information on this María Dionisia de los Dolores Calvillo? I suspect she may be my 3rd Great Grandmother. Or maybe a different Dionisia/Dionicia Calvillo???

This is what I have. A marriage record from Mateo Velasco Rodriguez con Juana Garcia Calvillo mentioning their parents. Mateo Velasco Rodriguez con Juana Garcia Calvillo

You think they are the same person?

Thanks in advance,

Victor Renteria Silva

Los Altos-Mulatos ?

Hola , I believe that the Mulatos were looking at a chance of freedom but maybe the owners (after/during the revolution) sent them away seeing that couldn't feed them and had no labor force .

FTDNA

Has anyone had any good results from using FTDNA.com ?

Comentarios

Comentario

I have had good results with it and I don't regret it but every person is going to have a different experience. Instead of using chromosome browser use a free program called Genome Mate that makes it easier to triangulate on matches by chromosome. It can be found at http://genomemate.org/

AncestryDNA.com doesn't even have a way to determine which chromosome and region you and your matches have in common. Only FTDNA and 23andme have that ability. You can see how some bloggers use both AncestryDNA and FamilyTreeDNA for finding matches and triangulating on them at http://dna-explained.com/2014/11/30/chromosome-browser-war/ and also at http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.com/2014/12/the-folly-of-using-small-…

The ethnic makeup is in a screen called myOrigins and it does need another update. The previous update fixed some problems but created some more. Part of what they broke was the percentage of Native American because they didn't use Pima, Maya, and Colombians as reference populations for that ethnicity. 23andme is considered the best company for determining ethnicity. AncestryDNA is almost as good.

Armando

Comentario

Thanks Armando, I will look into those blogs and the sites also.

My DNA knowledge is a bit limited but I am interested in figuring out more and try to get a better understanding of it.

Thanks again!

Kristine

Comentario

no don't. i paid $39 and i regret it. the myorigins results for my mom were weird, and most of her matches didn't have trees. also i found their chromosome browser too hard to use.

En respuesta a por katy_brecht_quesada

Comentario

Thanks Katy, yeah I don't think I am going to sign up for the paid subscription. The results it showed me for my free 2 pages, doesn't tell me much (obviously). But one of the matches has the name T. Quesada Brecht. Range: 3-5th cousin. Any relation to you?
Kristine

En respuesta a por magicalme

Comentario

yes, Teresa is my mother. that's her legal name after marrying my dad. i'd have to check my mom's matches on there again, and i would need to see your tree to determine if that match is correct or not.

also you should upload your dna to gedmatch

En respuesta a por katy_brecht_quesada

Comentario

I have my tree on Ancestry.com. It is set to private right now, but if you like I can make it public if you want to check it out.

I did not see any common surnames in the brief description on FTDNA associated with your mom's match to me, so I too wonder how accurate it is.

I will look into gedmatch.

Kristine

En respuesta a por magicalme

Comentario

ok, the main surnames on my mom's tree are quezada, ceballos, lopez, banuelos, villaneda, river,villegas, del real, sanchez castellanos, martinez del barragan, enriquez, carrillo davila, and de la torre. there are some other last names that don't appear as often though.

En respuesta a por katy_brecht_quesada

Comentario

Surnames in my tree are: Roman, Perez, Rangel, Contreras, Juarez, Martinez, Mendoza, and going further back: Diaz, Casas, Godoy, Quesada and a few more (including a del Real).

My maiden name is Roman

Comentario

Kristine and anyone else interested in genetic genealogy,

In one of your posts you stated that you wonder how accurate FTDNA matching is because you did not see common surnames. Katy had also stated that she would need to see your tree to determine if that match is correct or not. Even though the two of you have found common surnames I would like to expand on that misconception and how it can be cause people to erroneously shrug off matches and how to correctly determine if a match is real if you run into the same situation with other people. The common DNA isn't always from the common surnames and not finding common surnames doesn't always mean a match isn't real. All three DNA companies (AncestryDNA,FTDNA, and 23andme) use various algorithms to determine if two people are a match. There will be some false matches with all three companies so multiple things have to be done to determine if the match is real. Due to a misunderstanding of how the matching works and how DNA is passed on through the generations the misconception that no common surnames in trees must be due to inaccurate matching is one of the most common reasons people too easily shrug off matches.

Since the DNA that we inherit can be passed on for 15 generations then, in some cases, each of your matches have to have a very well documented tree for all of their ancestors going back as close to 15 generations as possible and without errors in order to find a common surnames. Many people don't know how, don't have time, or don't care to build an accurate tree that far back (this also happens at Ancestry.com where some trees only go back 5 or 6 generations and some others even less) or include all of the surnames in the surnames list at FTDNA. Just a few missing ancestral lines from just 4 or 5 generations or even as far back as 12 generations could be the cause of not finding a common surname. We also have to consider the small amount of affairs where the child doesn't genetically belong to the father. It didn't happen often but it did happen at times.

So what needs to be done?
Triangulation, as I had posted in in this thread, and several other threads on this site, and the use of DNA results of parent-child trios if possible. If parent-child trios aren't possible use DNA results of other close relatives. If a person matches you they should also match one of your parents on the same chromosome and segment. If not it is called IBS (Identical by State) or what some call a false positive.If the match exists in a parent on the same chromosome and segment it is called IBD (Identical by Descent) and this is normally a segment inherited from an ancestor in the past 15 generations.The segment should at least be 7cM in size (in the past I had used 5cM based on what some sites had recommended but recent literature has shown that 7cM or above is best due to a lower IBS rate). Not matching a close relative doesn't necessarily mean the match isn't real. It could mean that your close relative just didn't inherit that DNA segment. If your matches also match your close relatives and it is on the same chromosome and segment then the match is very likely to be real if the segment is large enough.

What is triangulation?
It is a process of finding multiple people that match on a specific segment on a specific chromosome and also match each other. They all have to match each other on the same segment and you have to match all of them. If two people don't match each other and they match you then they are related to you from different sides of the family. This happens because one person matches on one of the chromosomes in a pair and the other person matches on another chromosome in the pair even though it is the same segment. If they match each other and you then it is from a common ancestor between all of you. The more people you can find like that the easier it will be to find the most likely common ancestor all of you have. Having more close relatives test will get better results.

How is triangulation done?
FTDNA, Gedmatch, and Genome Mate. FTDNA has the chromosome browser built in so you can compare which chromosome and segment you match other people with but only five at a time. This is where the beauty of Genome Mate comes in. You can download that file and import it into Genome Mate so you can compare all of your FTDNA matches one chromosome at a time. You can also use Gedmatch to do a one-to-one compare on each match from the one-to-many match list that isn't already in your FTDNA file and paste it into Genome Mate. Then select a chromosome and look for multiple people that match on the same segment and then click on their name then email them to ask them if they match the other people and if so if they have a tree that they are willing to share, if it's not already at FTDNA. Do that for the other matches also. You can also find them in Gedmatch sometimes by using the one-to-many search then doing a one-to-many on them to see if they also match your other matches and do one-to-one on the other matches. Over time you will find triangulation groups.

How purchasing the $39 FTDNA transfer helps!
Since quite a few of the Gedmatch matches are in the FTDNA file you are saving a lot of time by purchasing the FTDNA transfer and getting the chromosome browser file and match list file. You should also be aware that not all of your matches at FTDNA have uploaded to Gedmatch and you are missing out on matches from FTDNA even after you have uploaded to Gedmatch if you don't purchase the FTDNA transfer.

Evidence of DNA being inherited from 15 generations ago
Jim Bartlett, a respected keynote speaker at DNA conferences, has made some excellent comments on a forum recently that "we sell ourselves, and genetic genealogy, short when we say atDNA is limited to 5th or 6th cousins. All of the evidence is pointing to the atDNA tests being valid out to 7th-10th cousins (and maybe more) - it's our own Trees that are the limiting factor" http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2014-12/141…

He goes on to say he has sticky segments that beat the odds that passed down maybe 10-15 generations. http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2014-12/141…

Ann Turner also pointed to a site from Coop Lab at UC Davis that has an illustration of sticky segments going back 11 generations. http://gcbias.org/2013/11/11/how-does-your-number-of-genetic-ancestors-… If you look at the 10th and 11th generation for a max contribution that is 1.5% per contributing ancestor which is close to a 10cM segment.

Inversely, not all people that match in a genealogical tree will match genetically
There are fourth and fifth cousins that do not show as matches because they have each inherited DNA from different ancestors even though they have the same ancestors. Some of the DNA gets lost or whittled down to a size so small it doesn't meet the threshold of a match at any company. For illustration purposes use those tree from Coop Lab. To see what a genetic tree is like see http://gcbias.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/family_tree.png and to see what a genetic tree is like see http://gcbias.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/family_tree_w_trans_2.png

Armando

Comentario

too bad there isn't a triangulation feature at gedmatch anymore. also the del real line is on my mom's paternal grandma's side. the perez and mendoza are through both of her paternal grandparents. yeah my mom's dad's family tree is quite 'screwed' up(for a lack of a nicer term) her dad's parents were related in a couple ways. their most recent common ancestors were their great grandparents celedonio villaneda and rita perez.

i haven't got dna tests for either of her parents though.

also here's my mom's gedmatch kit number is A146902. also my quesada ceballos tree is public(it focuses on my mom's ancestry, and it's on my dad's ancestry account- gene_brecht)

Comentario

Katy, I will make my tree on Ancestry public and I will look into yours. :)
My tree focuses more on my paternal side. I have my maternal side on there also, but not as much information as my paternal side.

Kristine

En respuesta a por magicalme

Comentario

i asked since i didn't get any email from you on the email i have on my page,\.

Comentario

Armando, Thank you so much for the explanations, I appreciate it. I am far from well versed in the DNA world, so thank you for explaining.
There is definitely a lot of learning to be done.
I do not have parents or grandparents to run DNA tests on, but I have had a maternal 1st cousin tested, so I will see if I can use him on some of these other sites.
Kristine

Comentario

Kristine,

If you have del Real and Quesada lines, we're cousins. I still need to submit my Family Finder test to FTDNA, so hopefully we'll see a match there.

I'd like to see how we connect, so I'll email you privately.

Rosalinda

En respuesta a por rosa9972

Comentario

Sorry Rosalinda-

No del Real or Quesada lines at this time​
Best of luck on your research.

Kristina

On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 12:57 PM, wrote:
>
> Kristine,
>
> If you have del Real and Quesada lines, we're cousins. I still need to
> submit my Family Finder test to FTDNA, so hopefully we'll see a match
> there.
> I'd like to see how we connect, so I'll email you privately.
>
> Rosalinda -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
> Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List
>
> To post, send email to:
> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org
>
> To change your subscription, log on to:
> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>

Comentario

Kristine,

Just the fact that you found Katy's mom in your FTDNA match list should be proof enough that you should purchase the transfer and that Katy's purchase was money well spent. You wouldn't have seen her mom if she hadn't paid the transfer fee. You didn't find each others DNA match on Ancestry or on Gedmatch. You found each others DNA match through FTDNA. Even though you can see your matches with the free preview your matches can't see you until a few days after you pay for the transfer. Once you do the transfer you will see their full name, email address, ethnic results if they opted in to share them, the chromosome browser, and a match list much longer than what you currently see, and your matches will see you.

Armando

What Spanish Ports used during XVI?

There are three ports in Spain that were there during XVI period:

Puerto San Sebastian:

http://oi60.tinypic.com/142fsp2.jpg

Puerto Santander:

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2ym9bm1.jpg

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Comentario

I assume when you state Sevilla it actually is Cádiz. I say that because Sevilla does not border the atlantic or Mediterranean. Cádiz was the most powerful port city in Spanish history.

Daniel

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 15, 2014, at 7:43 PM, zacatecano020@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> There are three ports in Spain that were there during XVI period:
>
> Puerto San Sebastian:
>
> http://oi60.tinypic.com/142fsp2.jpg
>
> Puerto Santander:
>
> http://oi57.tinypic.com/2ym9bm1.jpg
>
> Puerto Sevilla:
>
> http://oi58.tinypic.com/s3zkte.jpg
>
> Included are the three pictures. Most of the spanish explorers that arrived to Zacatecas were from the Basque region from "Gipuzkoa" such as Francisco Ibarra, etc.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gipuzkoa
>
> The ports of San Sebastian and Santander are located in the northern side of Spain near the Basque region. So I wonder if that is where they embarked rather than Sevilla which is at the very south side of Spain.
>

Comentario

Daniel,

Cádiz indeed became a very powerful port, but only after the decline of Sevilla after the 1650s, when the tonnage of the ships became too large for the Guadalquivir River which was silting up and becoming less navigable. Even though Sevilla does not sit directly on the Atlantic ocean, its connection through the Guadalquivir River, made it a very attractive river port, much like Hamburg on the River Elbe is in Germany today. That is one of the reasons why the Archivo General de Indias is in Seville, since all fleets to the Americas had to be licensed through the Consulado de Sevilla. This monopoly later changed, especially during the Bourbon reforms of the late 1700s. But to Madera's question in the 1500s and early 1600s, Sevilla was the undisputed master.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080514074225/http://www.apsevilla.com/nodo…

Sergio Salés

Question regarding Sagrario de Zacatecas

Is anyone familiar with Sagrario de Zacatecas??? What towns belonged to this parish in the early 1600-1700's. Also, why did it change names to Iglesia de Santo Domingo in the later colonial years.

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Comentario

According to the RAE dictionary, the Sagrario is a chapel of some Cathedrals used as parrish. That's the case with the Sagrario of the Cathedral of Mexico City. According to the following link, the Santo Domingo Temple took over the affairs of the Zacatecas Cathedral while it was being repaired, maybe they took the books as well:
http://arquitectronics.galeon.com/aficiones311864.html

Victoriano Navarro

Comentario

I've seen this cases of mix records, specially among the older ones, even worst, some had been indexed but just the "christening" side making it look like there is nothing else within the film, it is until one browse the complete records that we find such information. Luckily for me (if I must put it that way) I realized this the first time I ever browse a film, it was a mere coincidence but it kept me aware of it afterwards.

The sealed document is the accounting records concerning the wealth left by Don Vicente de Saldivar, captain and a miner, who apparently owed lots of money to the crown and many other people, the other people (many captains) are trying to get their payments before the authorities take them all, this type of documents were meant to be in the Spanish Archives but I guess this one never made it.

RJ Quiralta

Full detailed map of Mexico 1769 by Jose Urrutia and Nicolas De La Fora

I found a map where you can zoom in a specific area and get a close look:

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Nice find, there it shows Nombre de Dios as the Frontier of Nueva Galicia, that place would be later on the Durango side, One of my ancestors went from there to Nochistlán, I also remember seen other similar surnames in that town, like Juaragui, de Frias, Lozano, Rdz de Santa Ana. I read before about the actual location back in the days but is the first time I see it on the map.

RJ Quiralta

Fray Marcos De Niza en Mezquitic, Jalisco, Mexico (1667)?????

I was going through baptismo records of year 1667 of pueblo Santa Catharina which is recorded in Mezquitic Catholic Church records and noticed the signatures of "Fray Marcos De Niza:

Comentarios

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It looks odd at first but if you look carefully, it is an abbreviated/stylized way of signing, the letter that looks like an A is actually a Q, with the @ in top that would (in this specific case) means UI but understood as UIA, completing the MIZQUIA name. Plus the century off, but is interesting how a misread can lead to a different but actual real name, been there myself many times.

RJ Quiralta

i've updated my indexes

here
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/21043

and here
http://guadalajaradispensas.tumblr.com/

just wanted to share that since it can make navegating these doucments more easier

Comentarios

Comentario

Thanks Katy. This is a tremendous resource! I'll be glad to help with indexing.

Thanks again.
Austin Perez

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Katy, Thank You so much for your hard work and for sharing this. Does this new site have new film that was not indexed on the other site?
Thanks

Ships "Arrogante (San Antonio De Padua)" and "San Leandro" Microfilm No. 169026 (testamentos 1659 - 1843)

Transportation of Cargo between Cadiz and Veracruz year 1786:
Here Navios (Ships) names “Arrogante” and “San Leandro” are named:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/2e2piyc.jpg

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Comentario

Jose De Urrutia y De Las Casas was Capitan of Navio Arrogante. This is a picture of him:
http://oi60.tinypic.com/10mlifr.jpg

This info says he was in Zacatecas in 1766:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_de_Urrutia_y_de_las_Casas

Very interesting…this info says that this Spanish Captain, who also had something to do with the Arrogante, helped the USA for their independence against the English:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_Gonz%C3%A1lez_Ahedo

And this is what Felipe Gonzalez Ahedo (Haedo) looked like:
http://oi62.tinypic.com/mhgdp1.jpg

I love this! Names of Navios (Ships), Capitanes that traveled to Mexico. I wish I could find the names of ships and the Capitanes that brought nuestrosranchos ancestors to Mexico.

Comentario

Can someone help? Is the "America" another Navio? I have it pointed in green and underlined, "America" it doesn't say if it is a Navio like the Arrogante and San Leandro.

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2he9atj.jpg

But there is a ship called the "America" when I looked it up:

http://www.todoababor.es/listado/navio-america2.htm

Help-Record-Names

Hola Members,sorry for the molestia but I am unable to make out names . In Los Matrimonios de Nochistlan,Zacatecas-1736-1762 , feb.

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Comentario

I am from Nochistlan and yes, there is always in any record, especially
when written in hand challenges in reading it. Do attach the record.

*Very sincerely yours,*

*José de Jesús Legaspi*

On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Ronald Reynoso wrote:
>
> Hola Members,sorry for the molestia but I am unable to make out names .
> In Los Matrimonios de Nochistlan,Zacatecas-1736-1762 , feb. 20, 1737, Image
> # 630 se caso Salvador Carrillo and Ana de Jesus Rodriguez . Parents of
> Salvador Carrillo ,I can't make out . I think the father of the groom is
> Onofre and the mother ,I can't read it. Ana de Jesus Rodriguez I believe is
> Marcos Rodriguez and Juana Lopez de Elizalde .
> I thank you for your time
> Ronnie
>

Comentario

Hello

Below is how I read it:

Salvador Carrillo hijo legitimo de Ignacio Carrillo y de Josefa Enriquez con Anna de Jesus Rodriguez hija legitima de Marcos Rodriguez y de dona Juana Lopez de Lizalde, todos espanoles y vecinos de esta jurisdiccion...fueron padrinios Felipe de Ornelas y Margarita de Ornelas

The record is located top left of image 31

Regards
Austin Perez

Manuela Madera (1686 - 1738) - Sister of my GGGGGG Grandfather Joseph Madera of Minillas, Mezquitic, Jalisco, Mexico

I have some copies of the sister of my GGGGGG Grandfather Joseph Madera (1684 - 1734). Her name is "Manuela Madera" Copy of her bautismo June 23, 1686:

http://oi58.tinypic.com/28jgpoz.jpg

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Comentario

Here is another reference about "de Antonio De Los Angeles"

My GGGGGGG Grandparents Antonio Madera (1660 - 1709) and Maria De La Candelaria Angon (1655 - 1735) were padrinos in year 1686 to "Pablo de Antonio De Los Angeles"

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2i1yxzk.jpg

First they have a daughter "Manuela de Antonio De Los Angeles" where her surname is Madera. Now they are padrinos to a Pablo de Antonio De Los Angeles.

Is "Antonio De Los Angeles" a place?

Comentario

I found a reference that "San Antonio De Los Angeles" is a rancho. Here is someone that says:

"Nicolas mestizo rancho de antonio de los angeles"
http://oi57.tinypic.com/v63rxk.jpg

Manuela Madera - (sister of my GGGGGG Grandfather Joseph Madera) and daugher of my GGGGGGG Grandparents Antonio Madera and Maria De La Candelaria Angon:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/15s1s7d.jpg

Source is "Bautismos 1667-1686 Matrimonios 1667 - 1686 Defunciones 1668-1686" of San Juan Bautista of Mezquitic Catholic Church records.

Since my GGGGGGG Grandparents have also been mentioned residing in Minillas...is Rancho De San Antonio De Los Angeles a rancho under jurisidicion of Minillas?

Comentario

Maria de la Candelaria's last name is Angon. Have a look at the right side of this image, which is from a dispensation of a descendant of Antonio and Maria de la Candelaria's daughter, Maria (she is married to Antonio Navarrete):

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18412-32650-77?cc=1874591&wc…

The dispensation begins here (it's for Joseph Manuel de Castilla and Maria Guadalupe de la Trinidad de Robles, a descendant of Maria Manuela and her husband, Christobal Robles:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18412-33093-74?cc=1874591&wc…

My Madera ancestor is Lorensa Madera, wife of Juan Martin Suares del Real.

I hope this helps!

Rosalinda

Comentario

I've reviewed Madera's research, and I'm fairly certain that Lorenza is connected to this Madera family. Apparently, one of his ancestors married into the Avila family, just like Lorenza's unnamed father. This unnamed man most likely is a son/brother of Antonio Madera and Maria de la Candelaria Angon.

I thought that "Los Angeles" could refer to Maria de los Angeles, but it could also refer to some ranch named "Los Angeles" that is now lost to history.

Madera: do you have a document showing the connection between Joseph Madera and his parents, Antonio Madera and Maria de la Candelaria Angon?

Rosalinda

Comentario

Thank you Rosalinda! Regarding my ancestor that married into the Avila family? That is my GGGGG Grandfather Blas Madera who married Maria Theresa Avila. They resided in Minillas then they moved over to Rancho De Los Madera of Huejuquilla El Alto where they had two sons Francisco Madera (1723 - 1790) and Lazaro Madera. I am branched from Francisco Madera.

Regarding Xristobal Robles with Manuela Madera:

It is image(page) 129 of (Bautismos 1701-1721) of San Juan Bautista, Mezquitic , Church Records:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18739-76636-87?cc=1874591&wc…

I am so grateful that you found the surname of my GGGGGGG Grandmother Maria De La Candelaria (1655 – 1735) and it is Angon. I vaguely remember seeing that surname “Angon” when I was looking at the archive of “Cofradias 1632 – 1700” of Huejuquilla El Alto which is nearby Minillas Mezquitic where my GGGGGGG Grandparents (Antonio Madera 1660 – 1709?, Maria De La Candelaria Angon 1655 – 1735) resided at Minillas. We moved over to Rancho De Los Maderas when my GGGGG Grandparents Blas Madera/Maria Theresa Avila of Minillas moved over to Rancho De Los Maderas of Huejuquilla El Alto.

The surname “Angon” When I was looking at the archive of “Cofradias 1632 – 1700” I saw name of a person that owned a rancho in 1633 and his or her name is “Joan Angon” Here is a copy by chance that I made when I saw it and where it says, “Rancho De Joan de Angon.” I have it underlined in green for you to see. Could that person be related to my GGGGGGG Grandmother Maria De La Candelaria Angon?

http://oi57.tinypic.com/qp5x82.jpg

I found that on image (page) 7 of (Cofradias 1632 – 1700), San Diego (Parroquia) of Huejuquilla El Alto, Jalisco:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18452-81393-56?cc=1874591&wc…

I also found a link that has “Angon”

https://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I55007&tree=Hin…

Comentario

Madera (sorry-- I don't know your first name):

Do you have a document showing the connection between Joseph Madera and his parents, Antonio Madera and Maria de la Candelaria Angon?

I suspect people with the last name Angon are related to each other; it's an unusual last name, in an area which was sparsely populated. How she is connected to Joan de Angon, I couldn't say, but Joan was an old way of spelling Juan. Since the Cofradias image is from 1633, Maria de la Candelaria may be a daughter or granddaughter of this Joan de Angon. Perhaps there is a will somewhere that may make this clear.

I have two additional Angon women in my tree:

Luisa de Angon, married to Leonardo Sanches Castellanos

Maria de Angon, married to Nicolas de Rojas Vertis

The last name Angon may also be spelled as Argon; I have

Francisco Antonio Argon, married to Maria Josefa Dolores de Avila

Francisca de Argon, married to Xptobal Ortiz

The time frame makes it difficult to find documents to help us, although there are documents out there, I'm sure.

Look at these links:

http://www.bpej.udg.mx/ra_civil_reg?id=4470

http://www.bpej.udg.mx/ra_civil_reg?id=4706

http://pares.mcu.es/ParesBusquedas/servlets/Control_servlet?accion=3&tx…

Rosalinda

Comentario

Here is a difunto record of my GGGGGG Grandfather Joseph Madera of year 1734:

http://oi58.tinypic.com/rj334h.jpg

Marriage record of my GGGGG Grandfather Blas Madera with Maria Theresa Avila and it shows that Joseph Madera, Josepha Velasquez are the parents of Blas Madera:

http://oi57.tinypic.com/2vjufld.jpg

Marriage record of my GGGG Grandfather Francisco Madera in the year 1760 who got married with Maria Leocadia Huizar in Huejuquilla El Alto. It states he is the son of Blas Madera and Maria Theresa Avila. This is the time period when there was a move from Minillas to Huejuquilla.

http://oi59.tinypic.com/2cxapuc.jpg

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18447-27558-8?cc=1874591&wc=…

Francisco Madera also had a brother name Lazaro Madera. I have posted them in nuestrosranchos in the past. They resided in Rancho De Los Maderas of Huejuquilla El Alto.

I am curious that you found the information in an archive of Guaddalajara. I wonder if the baptismo or other records of my GGGGGGG Grandparents Antonio Madera (1660 - 1709?) and Maria De La Candelaria (1655 - 1735) are there in that archive even though they resided in Minillas, Mezquitic.

Comentario

The marriage dispensas were sent to the Diocese as couple were required to obtain them under certain circumstances (either blood or spiritual relationship, from another location, or some other reason). The film images I reference are the Diocesan copy, although I have seen some of the local parishes keep a copy, but many don't. I've not seen any bautismo records in the dispensas, although sometimes a copy is made from the local parish's records if it is needed for the dispensa.

These dispensas hold great genealogical information; sometimes the information can help expend a tree during a time when other records are difficult to find, like the dispensa I linked for you: that dispensa showed how two branches descend from the main couple, Antonio Madera and his wife, Maria de la Candelaria Angon.

There are many other kinds of archives that haven't digitized their records, which means a personal visit is in order, if possible. Arturo Ramos, who runs this website, once identified land and water records located in Guadalajara that have been helpful-- since your ancestor owned land, perhaps that is a place to explore as well.

Rosalinda

petronila de moctezuma

estimados compañeros de este foro
un cordial saludos

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Comentario

Saludos, hasta ahora que yo sepa, todavia no ha salido nada nuevo sobre Petronila de Moctezuma. Estamos todavia esperando el libro postumo de Guillermo Tovar de Teresa con la esperanza de que se mencione algo al respecto. Estoy seguro que cuando se encuentre el documento que demuestra los padres de Petronila, va a ser un gran revuelo en esta pagina, ya que muchos somos descendientes de ella y de Martin Navarro.

Saludos,

Steve in NC

General Digest, Vol 107, Issue 7

Estoy buscando informacion sobre mi antepasado Pedro de Ledesma casado con Isabel del Grado el es originario de Zamora España nacido en 1515.

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Comentario

Solo quiero añadir una pequeña nota, originalmente Rubio denota a una persona pelirroja, el termino actual fue el resultado de el uso incorrecto de la palabra para denotar a cualquier persona de cabello claro y también de piel rosada a través de la historia, Rubio es igual que la palabra Rubicundo y existen mas palabras asociadas las cuales en la actualidad siguen denotando el color rojo, como Rubí, Rubeola, Rubor, etc.

En documentos antiguos es difícil definir a que color realmente se refieren.

RJ Quiralta

Spanish Abbreviations Assistance

Hello, I am trying to decipher the difference in the following abbreviations, or if they actually mean the same thing just written differently?

Comentarios

Comentario

P.P. is definitely Padrinos in many of the records I've looked at. I suspect P.nos is also padrinos, but it would be helpful to see it in context.

Incidentally, some abbreviations I've often seen mistaken or un-noticed:
7bre = Septiembre (September used to be the 7th month, when the year began in March)
Some reseachers have mistaken the 7 for an F and concluded Febrero but it really is 7bre.
8bre = Octubre
9bre = Nobiembre
M (in the margin of the record) = Mujer, often the only clear indication of gender.
H (in the margin of the record) = Hombre ... frequently seen in christening records.
Stuart Armstrong

Comentario

Hello Stuart, Thank you for your response. Here are the links for the three records I am looking at. All three have Bernardo Roman for the father and two have Ysavel Ortis and the last one has Ysavel Leogarda.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15048-14522-68?cc=1804458&wc… Bottom right of the page, second to the bottom for Joseph Roman-father Bernardo Roman

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15280-10707-55?cc=1804458&wc… Bottom left of the page, last entry. For Josepha Crestina Roman, father Bernardo Roman

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-15048-13156-70
Bottom left hand of the page, last entry. For Joseph Bicente Roman, father Bernardo Roman.

Kristine

Comentario

Yes, I'm convinced those are padrinos in all three records. The order is often important - scribes usually wrote the details in the same order each time. Also, the phrase "á quién(es) adbertí su(s) obligación(es) y parentesco espiritual" is also a clue that it's talking about the godparents and their obligations.
Stuart Armstrong

Hernandez family

Hello my name is Ernestina Hernandez Sierra. It has been awhile since I've worked on my family tree due to serious illness in the family. Currently I am researching the Hernandez family.

Comentarios

Comentario

Your grandfather is José Ambrocio. Ambrocia is a female's name. Some men to do have names such as José María but your grandfather's baptismal record clearly has him as J. Ambrocio (José Ambrocio). https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18685-22578-52

La Ordeña is a ranch in Arandas, Jalisco which is next to San Diego de Alejandría where your grandfather was baptized. You can see a map of where it is located at http://mexico.pueblosamerica.com/mapas/la-ordena-7 and it is very close to the ranch Manuel Martínez Valadez http://mexico.pueblosamerica.com/mapas/manuel-martinez-valadez-agua-neg… . You can compare it with a map of Arandas that has larger ranches with small black squares and you can see the ranch Manuel Martínez Valadez in the top right close to the border of San Diego de Alejandría at http://iieg.gob.mx/contenido/GeografiaMedioAmbiente/Arandas_MBase2013.j…

La Ordeña means dairy farm but they also use it for a name in this case. Ordeñar means to extract milk and it most cases it is in reference to milking a cow.

Have you looked at all of the baptisms of the children of Juan Francisco Hernández and María Petra de la Torre? They might mention the grandparents as the padrinos in one of the baptismal records.

Unfortunately it looks like you are out of luck with finding an información matrimonial in Tepa or Arandas for Juan Francisco Hernández and María Petra de la Torre prior to April 1771 when they had their first child.

The only other option will be to find a dispensa for a great-great grandchild of Juan Francisco Hernández and María Petra de la Torre. There might be one because the following page shows Juan Francisco Hernández to be a son of Juan de Dios Hernández Gamiño Valdivia and of Juana Margarita Navarro Gaytán. A source is not cited so I don't know how reliable that information is. http://gw.geneanet.org/barbaybarba?lang=es;p=juan+francisco;n=hernandez…

Armando

Comentario

Thanks so much Armando. I was thinking maybe the DNA testing would be of help. What do you think. My family seems to have lived in other parts of Jalisco also. What do you think and what would be your recommendation for the DNA test

Tina Eley

Comentario

Hi Armando.
This is first time I have seen the last part of the name Gamino Valdivia after the Hernandez. What does this mean? Should I be using this in my research going forward? I want to thank you and Nuestros Ranchos for having such a wonderful site.

Tina Eley

Comentario

Hi Armando.
This is first time I have seen the last part of the name Gamino Valdivia after the Hernandez. What does this mean? Should I be using this in my research going forward? I want to thank you and Nuestros Ranchos for having such a wonderful site.

Tina Eley

Comentario

Thanks so much Armando. I was thinking maybe the DNA testing would be of help. What do you think. My family seems to have lived in other parts of Jalisco also. What do you think and what would be your recommendation for the DNA test

Tina Eley

Comentario

Hello Tina,

The surname Hernández Gamiño is a compound surname. The patriarch of the Hernández Gamiño line can be read about at http://historiasyrecuerdosdeencarnaciondediaz.com/macias.html#num9

Juan de Dios Hernández Gamiño Valdivia is named that way because in México it is customary to use the paternal and the maternal surname. Hernández Gamiño is his compound paternal surname and Valdivia is his maternal surname (This is called the mother's maiden name in the U.S.).

There are two people in the Nueva Galicia DNA project that belong to that line and have the same Y-DNA. If you wanted to see if one of your close male relatives with the Hernández surname matches them then yes a Y-DNA37 test will show that.

I imagine you are still going to want to find documentation for that line and you need to find all of the Hernandez dispensas at http://www.guadalajaradispensas.com/ and http://guadalajaradispensas.tumblr.com/

A Google search at the second one is the easiest way to find the Hernandez dispensas. Copy and paste the following into Google.

Hernandez site:http://guadalajaradispensas.tumblr.com/

Armando

Comentario

Hi Armando,
Thanks for you reply. There is just so much to understand about Mexican genealogy and I have a lot to learn. I am attaching the baptism record for Jose Andres Hernandez Arias which shows his parents and grandparents along with his padrinos. I question whether the Juan Francisco
Hernandez and petrona de la Torre from Arandes are the Hernandez I am looking for because all the Hernandez's I have found to be related are from the Cerro Gordo and La Ordena, near San diego de Alejandria, Jalisco.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NR58-9ZV

This is the baptism record for Andres Hernandez

thanks for all your help
Tina

Comentario

Tina,

I guess this is where you learn that many times men would move away from their birth town to marry and they would live close the family of the wife. This is also where you learn that the names of towns have changed, haciendas have become towns, and jurisdictions have changed. Most of that happened after the independence of Mexico.

The digitized image of the baptism of José Andrés is at https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18562-43844-45

It shows that he was baptized in the town of Tepatitlán and born in the ranch or hacienda Cerro Gordo. It also shows that his grandparents were Juan Francisco Hernández and Petrona de la Torre. Petrona is the same as Petra.

Cerro Gordo was once part of Tepatitlán. It is now a town and it is now called San Ignacio Cerro Gordo.

Juan Francisco Hernández and Petra de la Torre baptized Juan de Dios 16 Aug 1790 in the town of Tepatitlán. He was born in San Antonio Cerro Gordo.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18574-67352-52

Juan Francisco Hernández and Petra María de la Torre were married 21 Feb 1770 in the town of Tepatitlán. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18570-64632-49

The marriage record shows that they were both from San Antonio Cerro Gordo.

The parents of Juan Francisco Hernández were Juan de Dios Hernández and Margarita Navarro.

Juan de Dios Hernández and Margarita Navarro were married 10 Jan 1741. https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18570-64935-29

The marriage record states that Juan de Dios Hernández was from the jurisdiction of Michoacán. His parents were Joseph Hernández Gamiño and María Valdivia. Juan de Dios Hernández and Margarita Navarro had a dispensa de consanguinidad de 3o con 4o grado. That means that the parent of one of them was the second cousin of the other person.

Juan de Dios Hernández Valdivia was baptized 10 May 1716 in Atotonilco el Alto

Joseph Hernández Gamiño and María Valdivia were married 26 May 1704 in Tepatitlán.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18575-46970-41

The parents of Joseph Hernández Gamiño were Cristóbal Hernández Gamiño and María de Velasco.

Cristóbal Hernández Gamiño and María de Velasco were married 23 Feb 1653 in León, Guanajuato. León was at one time part of the jurisdiction of Michoacán.

Cristóbal Hernández Gamiño was the son of Domingo Hernández Gamiño and Juana Gómez de Espejo

Your Hernández line is the Hernández Gamiño line. I also descend from Cristóbal Hernández Gamiño and María de Velasco.

Saludos,
Armando

Comentario

Hi Armando
Holy moly!! I searched and searched for Juan Francisco and Petra's marriage record to no avail. So thank you very much. Do you know of any stories related to this family. I did see a note that they were notorious for marrying within the family.

I saw on the one site you sent me that Cristobal Hernandez Gamino was born in Caceres Extramadura, Spain. It is ironic because I had just finished reading and article on this area in the AAA magazine.

Armando, is there a place that I can go to so that I can learn more about mexican geanology so that I can become more proficient in my research???
Tina Eley

Comentario

Tina,

All of the Spanish families would marry relatives in order to marry another person with Spanish ancestry. This allowed them to maintain a higher status in society than being a mestizo. Since there was a limited number of Spanish families to marry they ended up marrying second and third cousins sometimes. Out of the marriage records I provided you only one of them mentioned marrying a 2nd cousin once removed.

It was Domingo Hernández Gamiño that was born in Trujillo, Cáceres, Extremadura. It was not Cristóbal Hernández Gamiño. I had given you the site that states it. http://historiasyrecuerdosdeencarnaciondediaz.com/macias.html#num9

About 60% of our ancestors were born in Extremadura or Andalucía based on records of immigration and declarations by our ancestors. The Hernandez Gamiño line is positive for the western European markers P312 and L21.

This is the best place to learn about Mexican genealogy, especially for your ancestors. Most site will talk about something other than Jalisco. Post questions when you have them.

You could also try and find copies of Retoños de España at a university by using www.worldcat.org

Armando

Mendozas from 1700's San Luis Potosi

I was wondering if anyone might be able to assist me in continuing my research into the Mendoza family surname.

Comentarios

Comentario

Hi David,

I did a quick search on FamilySearch, I haven’t pulled any of the records, but here’s some little leads that might help you.

Juan Nicolas Mendoza was married to Maria Dorotea Serda, aka Maria Dorotea de Oballe (Ovalle). I haven't found their marriage nor parents, but I found baptism records for 6 possible children, between the years 1802 and 1819, in San Geronimo.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMH6-WGM
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NLVZ-R85
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLV7-BYX
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMHD-SXN
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JMHD-SXK
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NK71-D3R

You'll want to pull these records and check ranchos & padrinos.

Keep running searches using both "Maria Dorotea de la Serda" and "Maria Dorotea de Oballe." A prominent surname in Nueva Galicia is "Lopez de la Serda," so you might want to try running searches giving her the surname "Lopez."

Maria Bruna Gamez’s parents were Jose Simon Gamez and Maria Josefa de Ovalle. I found baptisms for a possible 7 children born between 1794 and 1815 in San Geronimo. Simon Gamez and Maria Josefa Ovalle appear with different combinations of names (Antonio Simon, Maria Simona, Maria de la Encarnacion) - these might not all be the same couple, but again, check the ranchos and the padrinos.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NLVD-KKM
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NLV8-12Q
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/JSCD-WZK
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NLV7-1LK
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NLV7-1GQ
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NLV7-VRP
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NLV7-24G

I'm surprised Salvador and Maria Bruna didn't require a dispensa, both having "Ovalle" in their lines. I've been digging through my lines in Morelia, Tlazazalca and Patzcuaro, Michoacan, and "Serda," "Mendoza" and "Ovalle" all appear frequently in the 1600s. Might be a good place to check next, once the trail runs dry in San Geronimo.

Hope that helps, and Happy Holidays!

Manny Diez Hermosillo
http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/jrefugioghermosillo