Nuestros Ranchos Site

There were some priests or parishes that kept separate books for "espanoles" and castas (negros, mulatos, indios). In others, they kept the baptisms separate by whether the children were legitimate or "natural" (out of wedlock).

However, a libro reservado would not refer to either of these. I believe that a libro reservado was the "secret" book where testimony about incest, rape, etc. was kept, which was necessary to make determinations of consanguinity and such, but was not proper to have in the "public" baptism and marriage registers.

I have seen many such "secret dispensations" in the Sagrada Mitra. Had it not been for the Mexican government seizing those documents and allowing LDS to film them, I doubt the Catholic Church would have ever allowed them to be seen by laypeople. Some are quite shocking and/or entertaining. Proof that the old refrain about "back in our time..." is a stretch.

I'm new at this but I believe that in some cases (maybe old enough record
entries) separate books were kept for Espanoles and Blancos, while Mestizos,
Indios, Negros and Mulatos had reserved books for vitals.

-Esperanza
On 1/15/09 7:09 PM, "AliceBB" wrote:

> Dear Group, Today while researching the 1856 Aguascalientes bautiso records, I
> kept coming across entries that read, "los nombres de sus padres, abuelos
> paternos y maternos se hallan el libro recervado". These were in addition to
> the usual "hijo natural" entries in the same book. What does these libro
> recervado entries refer to? Thanks so much, Alice BB
>
>
>
>
> To change your subscription, log on to:
> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
>
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> Netscape. Just the Net You Need.

Wow Alicia you made me wipe a "gotita de cada ojo." What a wonderful
group of thoughts, words and love you'll have for your children,
grandchildren and their children to read days far from now. I'm honored
to have been mentioned and so happy you joined us in this journey we
started together so long ago. together we have seen the group grow and
now with Arturo's magic the group has grown beyond what was possible
with the old technology.

thank you for you support and for playing such an important role of
nurturing the new members just starting their search. Your love and care
flows from each message.

Never forget you have a good friend so far away in North Carolina,

joseph

=====================

Joseph Puentes
http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html (Vegan Environmental Solutions Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.com (Environmental Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.blogspot.com/ (Blog for above)
http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)
http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
Genealogy)

Alicia Carrillo wrote:
> Sylvia,
>
> I was touched by your comments,
> 1.that you're pleased that people have responded to your query.
> 2. that you had some luck with some suggestions to look in San Juan de Los Lagos.
> 3. that some of your family members had relations from Nochistlan.
>
> Thanks to Joseph Puentes and Arturo Ramos and to all the contributing members of this group, we all take infant steps and learn from each other, with the goal of some day finding our common connections. Eventually you will see that the combination of each baby step propels you to those leaps and bounds that are oh so exciting.
>
> Here's a little rumination I wrote about how I got here to this magical hunt for my ancestors.
>
> Pensamientos de mi suegro, Antonio Carrillo Jauregui,
> Thoughts of my Father-inlaw, Antonio Carrillo Jauregui
>
> The years had now passed since my father in-law died
> That March of 1985, now seemed so long ago.
> my children had grown and I had time to ponder,
> who was their abuelo and where did he come from,
>
> Through all the years, I knew not one soul,
> who could call him a brother a primo or son,
> who raised him, who loved him who taught him to love.
> who showed him the values my husband had learned.
>
> My children had their children, we were now abuelos.
> what could I tell them, about their bis-abuelo,
> where did he come from, who taught him to love,
> who were his parents and where did they come from.
>
> One day just by chance, I was scanning on-line,
> I googled some names and by chance found roots-web.
> I entered his name and the name Tlachichila
> and there I found queries from others like me,
> who hungered and thirsted, who wanted to know,
> where did they come from and who taught them to love.
>
> There were Carrillo's and Jauregui's, Olmos and Avelares
> I read and I posted a message in cyber-space,
> would this be of value I thought as I wrote,
> will anyone read this? will anyone care,
> will anyone know that Antonio was here.
>
> The year was 2003, retirement was near
> I dreamed of the day I would have time to search.
> The message I'd posted in March 2003
> was about to take flight, when a stranger named Joseph
> would write and would ask, would you please join our group,
>
> If you'd like to know more, come with us on our journey
> together we'll learn, together we'll grow.
> As a group we are stronger, as a group we are wiser,
> and maybe some day you will know of Antonio Carrillo Jauregui,
> who loved him, who held him, who taught him to love.
>
> Best New Year wishes to each and every one of you,
> Here's wishing you success in your search for your ancestors.
>
> Atentamente;
> Alicia, de San Jose, Calif
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: SylviaRodriguezRobles
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 5:13:15 PM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Teocaltiche and Surrounding Areas
>
>
> I am so pleased with the response and research tips. I will look at Nochistlan and other locals mentioned to continue my search. Someone mentioned similar points and I found a hit in San Juan De Los Lagos.
> Some family members had wifes from Nochistlan surnamed Rosas and Luna. They all immigrated to the US about 1917. The families first settled in Peachsprings, Arizona and then permanently in Needles, CA. Ofcourse over time the first generation has passed away and most descendants now live in other parts of California, Nevada and Arizona and Washington state.
> Thank you all so much, this is so much fun!
>
>
>
> Sylvia Rodriguez Robles

Corrine,

You could log in to the Nuestros Ranchos website and in the search field type in "castas", and it will give you a list of what is in the archives about the various caste designations in Mexico. If you read Spanish, one excellent article you will find is "6301 por que dejaron de importar los ancestros". It gives insight into the political and economic reasons for the caste system and the problems with it as far as record-keeping went. There is also an article there that describes the dozens of castes they gave names to for the different mixtures: black with white, white with indigenous, and any combination thereof.

One reason the US didn't take over Mexico completely was the fact that the citizenry had become very "mestizo" and spoke Spanish. Nowadays we see in many Americans the fear of this country being inundated with mestizos who speak Spanish. They want to keep the "character" of the country as it has always been, i.e. European and English-speaking.

I find all castes in my Mexican ancestry listed prior to 1821 when the Spanish government was forced out. I also find the same people listed in different records with different castes listed. One day they were "mulato" the next time they were "mestizo", then "espanol". That system seemed to serve no purpose after a while and was done away with. Remember that people are always ready to criticize and give a hard time to others for whatever reason. My husband's very white aunts in Mexico were discriminated against by cab drivers who didn't like "espanolas" even though his Mexican ancestry goes back to the 1500s in Mexico. Other dark people are discriminated against if they have money, and so on. I think now it comes down to economics and politics and power and class as much as race.

Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA --
----- Original Message -----
From: Corrine Ardoin
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Race Designations in Civil Records

This is partly a research topic, but probably also a general topic, so I put
this in research, because I have family information I do not want available
to the general public or to have show up on the internet. Sorry, if this is
not the way to do things.

As I mentioned before, I found the civil death records for my
greatgrandparents in Guadalajara, 1936 and 1941, with both of their race
designations being "mestizo(a)," followed by "mexicano(a)," which is part of
the form, so they would just fill in the blank next to "mexicano" to
designate what type of mexican they were.

Anyways, I looked up mestizo in the regular dictionary and it says this is a
person of Spanish and Indian (like Native American Indian, not India Indian)
descent, also that it means "half-caste." In the Spanish-English dictionary
that I use, mestizo means half-caste, of mixed race. Arturo was telling me
about the caste system in Mexico. I talked to my mother about it and she
says that the elite status was given to the pure Spanish citizens early in
Mexico's history, but later the indigenous held higher status after the
Mexican Revolution and then the Spanish were looked down upon. My
grandmother had told about learning in school, during revolutionary times,
things about the Spanish in such a negative way she would feel really bad
about being Spanish, like it was something to be ashamed of. Anyways,
according to my mother, the mestizos were basically of mixed race, Spanish
and French or Indian or whatever else. My greatgrandmother was Spanish and
Portuguese. The Martin del Campos "de la Yegua Rusa," which my ancestors
were, may have been of Spanish and French descent. However, I am hoping
that if there was any indigenous ancestry, it will say so on records. I
just want to know all about my ancestry.

So, as I was saying, she says how the caste system worked was the rich,
aristocratic Spanish were at the top, the "mestizos" that held merchant type
positions were the middle class, then the Indians were at the bottom. I
know this is a big generalization, too simplified. But, on these particular
civil records, it states that my greatgrandfather was a tailor. I know that
his sister had a shoe store on the plaza right by the Cathedral at the turn
of the century 1800's to 1900's and she had servants, as well. Their father
was a shoemaker, his brother a tailor, so it sounds like they were part of
the middle class. The family also had a farm outside of town, near Zapopan
and were, at times, poor. So, then, I am led to believe that "half-caste"
means "middle class," but I would like to hear more about this. I will be
digging further into this family line and would like to know not just their
race, but how that figured in to their lives.

In researching the history of the city of Guadalajara, I learned that the
downtown had been planned, but then neighborhoods kind of spread and grew
around it, called the "barrios." In these barrios, they were mini villages
in and of themselves, the rich with their comings and goings, their servants
and families, their merchants, tailors, shoemakers, etc. living near them to
cater to their needs. And the Indians were sort of pushed to the outskirts
by Tlaquepaque, I believe. These barrios then became formal districts for
record-keeping purposes and were then called "colonias." The first of these
was in the old downtown. Anyways, that's how I understand it to be.

I would appreciate being enlighted about the above topics if I am mistaken
in regards to the race designation on records, what purpose that served, the
caste system and what mestizo and half-caste really means, and the evolution
of Guadalajara's barrios into colonias. It is a complex city and I think my
family history research will be centered around there for some time, before
I get into records of family that lived in the ranchos.

Arturo, I enjoyed your family photos...all such wonderful treasures.
 
I have the following in my data base:
Francisco Sandoval de Fl (I have a copy of a document, but I'm unable to decipher the Fl)
spouse: Juana Ponce
children: eight
one of their sons: Salvador Sandoval - marriage record M600818
9 Feb 1738 - Tepechitlan - spouse: Ana de Vera Avilia
children: eight - all born in Tepechitlan.
Is this the line you are pursuing?
Saludos,
Prima Helyn
 
 
 

--- On Mon, 1/12/09, arturoramos wrote:

I have not been actively researching for some time now, but recently I came
across a long-lost cousin of mine who found her father in my genealogy database
online and we have reconnected. Her father left Mexico as a young man during
the Mexican revolution, with a handful of photos of his family, expecting never
to see them again.

He never did, but his daughter found us ninety years later and we found some
precious treasures including a photo of my great-great-grandfather from 1907.

http://ramosfamily.org/nextgen/getperson.php?personID=I374&tree=RamosPi…
http://ramosfamily.org/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=20&pos=34

This reconnection with this long-last brach of my family has led to me
reconsider trying to break through a brick wall that I ran across a while back.

The furthest ancestor in this Gutierrez line that I have is a certain Salvador
Gutierrez married to a Gertrudis de Vera in the mid-1700s. I have several
children for the couple baptized in Tlaltenango, Zacatecas beginning in 1738,
but I have been unable to find their marriage record (and thus have been unable
to get back another generation):

1. Juan Antonio GUTIERREZ VERA, b. 1738, Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman,
Zacatecas, MEXICO 2. Joseph Maria GUTIERREZ, b. 21 Sep 1739, Tlaltenango de
Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, MEXICO 3. Juan Manuel GUTIERREZ, b. 29 Dec 1741,
Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, MEXICO 4. Gertrudis Dionicia
GUTIERREZ VERA, b. 3 Nov 1742, Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, MEXICO
5. Juan Antonio GUTIERREZ, b. 18 Apr 1743, Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman,
Zacatecas, MEXICO 6. (Jose) Blas Antonio GUTIERREZ, b. 18 Feb 1749, El
Durazno, Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas 7. Juana Maria Francisca
GUTIERREZ VERA, b. 3 Jun 1753, Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, MEXICO
8. Vicencia Theodora GUTIERREZ VERA, b. 4 May 1755, Tlaltenango de Sanchez
Roman, Zacatecas, MEXICO 9. Maria Regina GUTIERREZ VERA, b. 1735
There is a couple that intrigues me in the records, though the grooms surname
does not match whatsoever. Any leads or suggestions would be greatly
appreciated.

SALVADOR SANDOVAL
Male Parents: Father: FRANCISCO SANDOVAL DE FL.
Mother: JUANA PONCE Marriages: Spouse: ANA DE VERA Family Marriage:
13 SEP 1736 Tlaltenango De Sanchez Roman, Zacatecas, Mexico

Hi Arturo, it's possible this Vera could be related some how to your Vera, I would still order the record b/c you never know! I try to also look for as amny cousins as possible (even all of them if I can) this has helped especially with most of the cases where my family had (shh! married inside) That's common for all of us Im sure. Anyway cosuins can give clues. And surnames, there was no rule to which chld would recieve a certain surname! I hope this sheds some light, and search the nearby pueblos. -Daniel Camino
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Dear Patricia, of course I'm understand english but my spoken and written are not terrific..you write very well in spanish ,Which part of Canada did you born? because for me is easier to speak and write in french. I'm fom Mexico city...Nice to ciber-meet you, it's a pleasure to can help us each other. Leticia Reynoso
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Patricia, muchas gracias, la verdad es que esta rama estaba tan enmarañada que llevaba años postergándola.. porque todos son Navarro Angulo, Angulo Navarro Hernandez, etc.. pero ayer fué cumpleaños de mi suegro y le quiero dar una sorpresa porque de oaxaca ya le adelante mucho..gracias..si estás muy atorada y te puedo ayudar en algo quedo a tus órdenes, posteé la información para que se quede por si le sirve a alguien más. saludos L.Reynoso
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Miguel ANGULO c. con Maria Antonia DIAZ cerca de 1746 en Mexicoy Algunos de Sus Hijos: 1. Cathalina Rafaela ANGULO n. 1747 en Atotonilco el Alto, Jal. c. 16 May 1770 in Tepatitlan de Morelos, Jal. con Hipolito Caciano LOMELIN
2. Maria de san jose Martha ANGULO Diaz en 1771
3.Vicente Roman ANGULO Diaz en 1766
4.Rita Solena ANGULO Diaz 1768
5.José Samuel ANGULO Diaz 1757
6.José Maria Francisco ANGULO DIAZ n 1754 ***casa 30 ene 1788 con Ana Maria Aceves en Tepatitlan tienen a:

1.Francisco ANGULO ACEVES + Eduviges Hernandez (casados el 14 may 1828 en Tepa)
Jose Gerardo (n1836) + Alvina Garcia (M:1865) con Lucía Casillas (M:1876 tapona)
Jose Santa Ana (n1839) + Ventura Ruiz (n1841) (M:1854)
Juan (n 8feb1835)
José Marcial (1840)
Hermenegildo (1829)

2.José Maria Franco. ANGULO ACEVES nace 23 ago 1795 + Maria Polonia Hernandez M: 2 mar 1824 en tepatitlan:

Maria Petra ANGULO HERNANDEZ (n 19oct1832 twin)
Jose Pedro ANGULO HERNANDEZ (19 oct 1832) Francisco de la Natividad ANGULO HERNANDEZ (11oct1835)
José María ANGULO HERNANDEZ (25dic1830) Maria Luisa ANGULO HERNANDEZ (15dec1827)
José Onofre ANGULO HERNANDEZ(15 jun1825) + Ma. Eleuteria Margarita NAVARRO(n 20feb1827) (M.10 ago 1848)hija de Cleto Navarro +Ma Eduviges Romero

Hijos de José Onofre Angulo y Eleuteria Navarro:

Jose Amado ANGULO NAVARRO(1849) + Nicolasa Hernandez _______Librado NAVARRO HERNANDEZ
Maria del refugio ANGULO NAVARRO (4jul1850)
Nicolas de la Trinidad ANGULO NAVARRO (10sep1855)
Margarita ANGULO NAVARRO (3ago1853) + Leonardo Navarro

Leonardo Navaro+ Margarita Angulo Navarro casados el 2 jun 1872 ayo el chico Jalisco tienen además a:

Leonardo Navarro Angulo + Refugio Hernandez
Carolina Navarro Angulo (1888) + Juan Prieto Ortiz (oaxaca)

Carolina Navarro y Juan Prieto: (M:1905)
Alicia Fortunata PRIETO NAVARRO 1908
Carlos PRIETO NAVARRO 1911
Guillermo PRIETO NAVARRO 1915
Blanca PRIETO NAVARRO 1916

Muchas Gracias Paty Burton te comparto mi info también tengo info de los que estan casados y sus padres e hijos..¿ Saben algo de Maria Polonia Hernandez?
Leticia Reynoso

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Corrine....Thank you for sharing such a lovely story....Hope you will share some of your grandmother's recipes...I bet they all are
very special and fantastic!!!
Helyn

--- On Sat, 1/10/09, Corrine Ardoin wrote:

Hi,
I'm a little behind in my emailing, due to computer difficulties, so I
apologize for trying to catch up with the many wonderful discussions.

Anyways, I remember going to my grandma and grandpa's house where they
lived
in Inglewood (Los Angeles area) and going into the kitchen to see the
turkey. Well, she always cooked tongue, too, "lengua," so I would
see that
big ole thing plopped there on top of the stove and my eyes would bug out.
"You eat that?" And everybody laughed, "Try some! It'll
put hair on your
chest!" Seemed like there were a lot of things they ate that would put
hair
on my chest, which I didn't really want, seeing as how I was a girl! I
never developed a taste for any of the organ meats and such that she served,
but I did love the traditional guacamole. Last year, I got all my family
to compile recipes and I put together and had printed a family recipe book.
My aunt had all my grandmother's recipes, so they all went into the
cookbook.

Corrine Ardoin
Santa Maria, California

How do I get civil records?  I have ancestry.com.  Is it there?  tks, bc (Canales/Longoria of Sombrete Zacatecas)

--- On Sun, 1/11/09, Corrine Ardoin wrote:

From: Corrine Ardoin
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Civil and Church Records
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 2:03 AM

Linda:
I started out only doing civil records and used the civil marriage date as
the day the couple was married. I was happy with that until I started
getting records off of Family Search, which only uses church records. The
dates I had and they showed were always different and I wondered why, until
it dawned on me that the civil union was on one day, then the couple would
later get married in the church. So, now I try to get both the civil and
the church record and, in the process, have found additional information
that just one type of record would not have provided. I also get the civil
birth records and the baptisms for the same reason, to get more information
on someone and the family. Of course, now I am to the point where there are
no civil records, pre-1860's, and only then look for church records.

Corrine Ardoin
Santa Maria, California

Cristobal de Vergara + Antonia Carrillo Tocaltiche hijo:

Joseph Antonio de Vergara + Maria antonia Monica de Aguayo (m:14 sep 1757) Tocaltiche hijo:

Jose Manuel Vergara (B.1761) + Maria Josefa Muñoz Totaltiche Hijo:

Jose Marcial Vergara + Maria Patricia Ynojosa Cd. Guzman Hijo:

Jose maria Feliz Vergara Ynojosa (b: 20 may 1820) Cd, Guzman + Maria del Refugio Silva Hijo:

Jose Dolores Vergara + Pilar Rodriguez (m: 24 feb 1872) Zapotlan jalisco
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Hola Raty en Zapotlan Jalisco parece que el único matrimonio posible es Jose Dolores Vergara y Pilar Rodriguez (casados el 24 de feb 1872) desgraciadamente sus registros solo alcanzan hasta 1873, hijos:

Maria columba 1872 ,Jose maximiano de jesus 1874, Ricardo ( que fué gemelo pero no dice de quien) los numeros de batch que uedes buscar en www.familysearch.org son C604539, C604542,43,44,45,46,47 C604533,34,35, C603316,C031620, C036680 K602919 y J602919 M604562 de zapotlan y C035530 en Sayula

Jose dolores se caso en zapotlan pero nació en Cd. Guzman que tambien era zapotlan era hijo de Felix Vergara y refugio Silva
Pilar Rodriguez nació en tecalithan o tecolotlan hija de jose maria rodriguez y Refugio Brizuela

y en zapotlan eran Trinidad Medina e Ypolita Gonzalez
Trinidad hijo de Geronimo medina y Antonia Casas tal vez Ypolita Gonzalez era Guerra pero parece que era compuesto y los unicos que aparecen en esa fecha con apellido compuesto eran en sayula Jose Maria Gonzalez-Guerra y Lauro Gonzalez-Guerra pero eran conrmporaneos entonces tal vez sus papas o tios tuvieron una hija que se casó con Medina ( tal vez Ypolita)
Resulta que los Gonzales que aparecen an Zapotlan Ciudad Guzman tambien Venian de sayula asi que vamos creo que por buen camino
en el mismo registro viene una Ygnacia y una Maria y no una Hipolita, pero casualmente es hija de Jose maria Gonzalez y Margarita Gonzalez tal vez el de su papa era apellido compuesto. que tengas suerte si tienes mas datos...Saludos Leticia Reynoso
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Alicia,

Your rumination was great; it speaks for all of us. Well put.

Thanks,

Emilie
Port Orchard, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: Gilbert Paez
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 3:49 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Alicia Carrillo's thoughts

Alicia, that was really nice, and these are the same feelings I have
when researching. Every little tidbit of new information about my
ancestors gets me motivated.

Gilbert Paez-Austin, TX

Nuestros Ranchos General Mailing List
DAILY DIGEST
****************************************

Today's Topics:

1. Re: Our stories and how we got here (Joseph Puentes)
2. Our stories and how we got here (Alicia Carrillo)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:33:14 -0500
From: Joseph Puentes >
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Our stories and how we got here
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Message-ID: <4964308A.90104@nc.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Wow Alicia you made me wipe a "gotita de cada ojo." What a wonderful
group of thoughts, words and love you'll have for your children,
grandchildren and their children to read days far from now. I'm honored
to have been mentioned and so happy you joined us in this journey we
started together so long ago. together we have seen the group grow and
now with Arturo's magic the group has grown beyond what was possible
with the old technology.

thank you for you support and for playing such an important role of
nurturing the new members just starting their search. Your love and care

flows from each message.

Never forget you have a good friend so far away in North Carolina,

joseph

=====================

Joseph Puentes
http://h2opodcast.com/vsse.html (Vegan Environmental Solutions Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.com (Environmental Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.blogspot.com/ (Blog for above)
http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)
http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
Genealogy)

Alicia Carrillo wrote:
> Sylvia,
>
> I was touched by your comments,
> 1.that you're pleased that people have responded to your query.
> 2. that you had some luck with some suggestions to look in San Juan de
Los Lagos.
> 3. that some of your family members had relations from Nochistlan.
>
> Thanks to Joseph Puentes and Arturo Ramos and to all the contributing
members of this group, we all take infant steps and learn from each
other, with the goal of some day finding our common connections.
Eventually you will see that the combination of each baby step propels
you to those leaps and bounds that are oh so exciting.
>
> Here's a little rumination I wrote about how I got here to this
magical hunt for my ancestors.
>
> Pensamientos de mi suegro, Antonio Carrillo Jauregui,
> Thoughts of my Father-inlaw, Antonio Carrillo Jauregui
>
> The years had now passed since my father in-law died
> That March of 1985, now seemed so long ago.
> my children had grown and I had time to ponder,
> who was their abuelo and where did he come from,
>
> Through all the years, I knew not one soul,
> who could call him a brother a primo or son,
> who raised him, who loved him who taught him to love.
> who showed him the values my husband had learned.
>
> My children had their children, we were now abuelos.
> what could I tell them, about their bis-abuelo,
> where did he come from, who taught him to love,
> who were his parents and where did they come from.
>
> One day just by chance, I was scanning on-line,
> I googled some names and by chance found roots-web.
> I entered his name and the name Tlachichila
> and there I found queries from others like me,
> who hungered and thirsted, who wanted to know,
> where did they come from and who taught them to love.
>
> There were Carrillo's and Jauregui's, Olmos and Avelares
> I read and I posted a message in cyber-space,
> would this be of value I thought as I wrote,
> will anyone read this? will anyone care,
> will anyone know that Antonio was here.
>
> The year was 2003, retirement was near
> I dreamed of the day I would have time to search.
> The message I'd posted in March 2003
> was about to take flight, when a stranger named Joseph
> would write and would ask, would you please join our group,
>
> If you'd like to know more, come with us on our journey
> together we'll learn, together we'll grow.
> As a group we are stronger, as a group we are wiser,
> and maybe some day you will know of Antonio Carrillo Jauregui,
> who loved him, who held him, who taught him to love.
>
> Best New Year wishes to each and every one of you,
> Here's wishing you success in your search for your ancestors.
>
> Atentamente;
> Alicia, de San Jose, Calif
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: SylviaRodriguezRobles >
> To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 5:13:15 PM
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Teocaltiche and Surrounding Areas
>
>
> I am so pleased with the response and research tips. I will look at
Nochistlan and other locals mentioned to continue my search. Someone
mentioned similar points and I found a hit in San Juan De Los Lagos.
> Some family members had wifes from Nochistlan surnamed Rosas and Luna.
They all immigrated to the US about 1917. The families first settled in
Peachsprings, Arizona and then permanently in Needles, CA. Ofcourse over
time the first generation has passed away and most descendants now live
in other parts of California, Nevada and Arizona and Washington state.
> Thank you all so much, this is so much fun!
>
>
>
> Sylvia Rodriguez Robles

Most FHC threw out old fische. My local FHC still has some old fische. I will also check out.
--
Esther A. Herold

-------------- Original message from Joseph Puentes : --------------

>
> Welester was kind enough to send me a disk with batch numbers for Mexico
> via Esther Herold (thanks everyone). Note that the batch number that
> have ** next to them are probably not going to work. Does anyone know
> why these don't work and what happened to those batch numbers. Seems
> that if they were existent at one time they still might be available
> some place. Possibly on an older pre 1988 version of the IGI. Is that
> only to be found on Fiche somewhere or is it no existent? The fiche
> found in todays FHC what is the date of the IGI? I've been told but I
> can't remember right now.
>
> http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com/RANCHOS/BatchNumbers/Jalisco.pdf
>
> thanks
>
> joseph
>
> ====================
>
> Joseph Puentes
> http://h2opodcast.com (Environment Podcast)
> http://h2opodcast.blogspot.com/ (Blog for above)
> http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
> http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)
> http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
> Genealogy)
>
>
>

Hi there Joseph ,

I'll ask around here and see what I can come up with , I'm still trying to get the protocols from Zacatecas , wish me luck !

Welester> > Welester was kind enough to send me a disk with batch numbers for Mexico > via Esther Herold (thanks everyone). Note that the batch number that > have ** next to them are probably not going to work. Does anyone know > why these don't work and what happened to those batch numbers. Seems > that if they were existent at one time they still might be available > some place. Possibly on an older pre 1988 version of the IGI. Is that > only to be found on Fiche somewhere or is it no existent? The fiche > found in todays FHC what is the date of the IGI? I've been told but I > can't remember right now.> >
_________________________________________________________________
More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.
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Hello Miri, excuse me for my english.  I´m Mexican and my english is not good.

I have published this document

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/16668

One of my great great great .... great grand father was:  Andres Ignacio de la Trinidad Cuéllar Figueroa  (Son of Cristhobal Trinidad Cuéllar y Gonzalez and Maria Ignacia de Figueroa) was christened on 7 Dec 1759 in San Juan De Los Lagos, Jalisco, Mexico.

Andres married Clara Rafaela Gonzalez  on 31 Aug 1780 in La Encarnacion, Encarnacion De Diaz, Jalisco, Mexico.

In am not shure if Andres is brother of Antonio de San Buenaventura de la Santisima Trinidad.  I think son because the dates of both marriages are very nearly.

And both places Aguascalientes and Encarnación de Diás Jal are very nearly too.

I am very interesting to exchange with you information about the line Cuellar Figueroa.

Thanks in advance.  I can write better in spanish.

happy new year.

Juan J. Cuellar
Celaya Mex

----- Original Message ----
From: miri12
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 10:55:15 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Does any one have this book? : Sagrada Mitra de Guadalajara Antiguo -de matrimonios extractos siglos XVII-XVIII

Hello-

I am researching my maternal line and have hit a road block. Does anyone have this book mentioned above? My library will not do aninterlibrary loan and I think it could really help.
Right now I am looking for the parents of:

JOSSEFA MARCELA GONZALES married to 
ANTONIO DE SAN BUENAVENTURA. DE LA SMA. TRINIDAD CUELLAR FIGUEROA

sept. 24th 1775 in Aguascalientes. 
Would like to find chiristening and parents of jossefa.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Miri

Thank you Francisco, I will let you know, Have a Happy New Year!

--- El dom 4-ene-09, francisco sevilla escribió:

De:: francisco sevilla
Asunto: [Nuestros Ranchos] Fw: Leticia, Alessandro, Steve
A: "ranchos organization"
Fecha: domingo, 4 enero, 2009, 8:21 pm

Leticia, Alessandro, Steve

--- On Sun, 1/4/09, Xevilla wrote:
From: Xevilla
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Leticia, Alessandro, Steve
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 6:17 PM

Searching Google Earth I came upon the satellite vision/map of Zacoalco de
Torres Jalisco and surrounding areas.
Also having contact with someone who regularly emails slides/pictures to me if
you would like me to forward these slides let me know.

My mexican friends tell me that, no, they would not live together until after a church ceremony and that church marriages were not recognized as leagal by the government. Then somewhere I read that many times children were not baptized until later on when a priest could come to their town. I can imagine that this may have been true of marriages also. Just a thought. Anita

--- On Sun, 1/4/09, longsjourney wrote:

> From: longsjourney
> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] civil and church marriages
> To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
> Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 4:30 PM
> which date would you post in your records for a marriage,
> the civil record if it appears dated first or the church
> date if you have it? I've been told that parents did
> not consider their children married until it was done in the
> church and they were not allowed to live together until the
> church marriage. I would imagine there were couples who
> could not marry in the church but could have a civil
> marriage. What have other members of the group found?
>
> Linda in Everett

Thanks Yolanda,

This brought back many memories of the way it used to be when we were kids and while it never was this large, there was a semblance of these traditions, the rosary, the misa de gallo, as in midnight mass, and what felt like millions of tamales and people be it friends or family, comadres, compadres and tios and tias politicas. This article is correct in that what you exchanged was not gifts but food, drink and friendship.

Alicia,
San Jose, Calif

________________________________
From: Yolanda Edwards-Guerra
To: Nuestros Ranchos
Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:56:46 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Fw: O holy fiesta! A Mexican Christmas Eve

I thought you'd might enjoy reading this article on our heritage

Yolanda

--- On Wed, 12/24/08, yotomas@yahoo.com wrote:

From: yotomas@yahoo.com
Subject: O holy fiesta! A Mexican Christmas Eve
To: yotomas@yahoo.com
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 8:22 PM

This story was sent to you by: yotomas@yahoo.com

--------------------
O holy fiesta! A Mexican Christmas Eve
--------------------

Gustavo Arellano and his extended family celebrate Christmas Eve at his Tia
Maria's house with a feast of epic proportions.

By Gustavo Arellano > > >

December 24 2008

My parents remain the only ones of their respective siblings who have no
grandchildren, so we -- Mom, Dad, me, a brother and two sisters -- spend most of
our Christmas Eves with the family of my Tia Maria.

The complete article can be viewed at:
http://www.latimes.com/features/food/la-fo-arellano24-2008dec24,0,43944…

Visit latimes.com at http://www.latimes.com

Sylvia,
I don't know if anyone has responded to you, but I am very interested in
hooking up with other people who are descendents from the Teocaltiche
region. I have traced my history back to 1805 to Teocaltiche, but family
records are few. I think it's because my family was new to Teocaltiche
around this time frame. I need to order more films to see if I can get any
clues as to where they came from. I would be really interested in migration
patterns to Teocaltiche.

Anyway, you can email me offline if you wish: vrahorn@wydebeam.com.

Thanks!
Veronica Vidaure Rahorn

----- Original Message -----
From: "SylviaRodriguezRobles"
To:
Sent: 11 December, 2008 17:29
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Teocaltiche,Jalisco

>
> I noticed a few of us with roots in Teocaltiche, Jalisco. I visited
> Teocaltiche in 1998. I visited with the local cronista, Senor Rameriz,
> the uncle of author Nicolas De anda Sanchez.
>
> I have been going through the IGI and ordering films, but having a
> difficult time getting pass my great-grandfather Mauro Rodriguez.
>
> I have used tips offered by a member to search for siblings on rolls.
> This has worked.
>
> In the book on Teocaltiche my family is mentioned in the talaberteros
> section. I know from the past some of you worked with the
> author. --Nicolas De Anda Sanchez. I know he must be getting on in years.
> I would like to get my information to the author since conventional
> search tools not working. Since he gound it noteworthy to add my family
> to the book I thought it would be of interest to him to know about the
> descendants. Perhaps he has source information of value for my historical
> benefit.
>
> Most importantly, I would love to share family backgrounds andi mmigration
> pattern to USA. Maybe some links?