Nuestros Ranchos Site

Apellidos recortados o simplificados.

Hola a todos:

Tomás:
Estoy 100% de acuerdo con todo lo que dice sobre los apellidos. En el caso
mio
el apeliido fué "Gonzalez de Hermosillo" por 8 genraciones, en la novena
generación se se recortó a
simplemente "Gonzalez", comenzando con Ygnacio Gonzalez que nacio en 1704
en
Jalostotitlán, Jalisco.

El "González" mas antiguo que he encontrado (Patriarca) de esta linea fué
Alonso González
que nacio en Hermosilla, Burgos, España en 1467. Es muy probable que se le
haya agregado
"de Hermosillo (a) " a su apellido para designar su lugar de origen y mas
facil distinguirlo de otros "González"

En realidad, Juan González de Hermosillo" ( 4a generación) ya no fué de
Hermosilla porque nació en
Mexico D.F. en 1572. Desde entonces pudieron haber usado "González" en
lugar de "González de Hermosillo"

Sobre los "Ramirez de Hermosillo" no se nada porque no he investigado ese
apellido, Sería
posible que también se halla originado en Hermosilla, Burgos, España
tambien?

John González
Wildomar, CA.
1gnzlz@verizon.net

====================================================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tomás Alejandro Villegas Gómez"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 12:58 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] 6301 Re: POR QUE DEJARON DE IMPORTAR LOS
ANCESTROS

Genealogia.org.mx] 6301 Re: POR QUE DEJARON DE IMPORTAR LOS ANCESTROS

Hola a Todos:

Saludos desde La Perla de Ocidente, mi bella Guadalajara:

Muy interesante todo lo que dicen con respecto a como se
simplificaron
los apellidos y el desinteres por la Genealogia o Historia Familiar.
Yo por mi parte opino lo siguiente, todo lo anterior como casi todo
en la sociedad
se debe a cuestiones Politicas, Religiosas y Economicas.
Yo creo que una razon por la que se acortaron l,os apellidos
compuestos
si fue el aspecto politico social y sobre todo el practico, primero, si tubo
que ver
la cuestion social de la Independencia y el llamado a la igualdad social, yo
sabia
que en efecto, despues de la guerra de Independencia, se giro un decreto en
el sentido
de que se debian suprimir las Castas o Diferiencias de Clases, es decir, se
ordeno
que se suprimiera de todo documento oficial, las distinciones y castas, y
que se
debia llamarcon igualdad a todos los hombres y mujeres "Ciudadanos" y muchos
de
los que aqui escriben, en sus investigaciones debieron notarlo, se elimino
de las
fés de bautismo y matrimonio, los "Don", o "Doña" , lo de Mestizo, Indio, o
Español y
simplemente se antepuso el "Ciudadano" o "Ciudadana" y seguramente segun
comenta
una persona aqui mismo, tambien por decreto se quito lo de "de" y "de la"
antes de
los apellidos.
Con respecto al desinteres en la actualidad sobre la genealogia o
historia familiar
tambien creo tiene origen en el cambio social dado en la Independencia de
Mexico,
como en toda guerra la historia y las reglas la hacen los vencedores, y todo
lo que
"olia" a los vencidos, se repudiaba y se perseguia, o se enterraba, asi que
la forma
de pensar y actuar de las personas antes de la independencia, se trato de
eliminar
despues de la misma, asi tenemos que antes de la independencia, las personas
pensaban que una de sus grandes herencias era la historia familiar, la
hidalgia o
la nobleza, asi que era muy importante transmitir esta herencia de padres a
hijos,
asi que se fomentaba mucho, aunque sea de forma verbal, el conocimiento de
la
historia familiar, asi era el pensamiento hasta antes de la Independencia,
asi que
despues de la INdependencia, este pensamiento se repudio y se persigio y fue

tabu, "olia" a "maldito Español" o "Gachupin", por eso, para honrar la lucha
de
independencia, toda la forma de pensar y de actuar de "antes" se olvido, y
parte de
este "olivido" fue la tradicion de heredar o darle importancia a la
Genealogia o
Historia Familiar.
Además por cuestion demografica tambien esto ocurrio, ya que la
poblacion
crece y crece exponencialmente y cada vez es mas dificil, atender las
necesidades
de tan creciente poblacion, es por eso que a los encargados de dar servicios
religiosos
o civiles, con el crecimiiento de la poblacion les es mas dificil atender en
lo particular
a cada individuo y se trata de simplificar todo, asi que por razones
demograficas, en
particular a los encargados de "escribir" las actas ya sea religiosas o
civiles, cada vez
se les hace mas dificil, "profundizar" en datos de cadsa individuo, asi que
con la carga
de trabajo, tratan siempre de hacerse la vida mas facil y simplificar al
maximo su
actividad, es por eso tambien que se suprimen de las actas todo lo
anteriormente
dicho, las castas, los titulos, y los apellidos compuestos, incluidos el
"de" y el
"de la", y este BUM Demografico aunado a "loqueras" o "caprichos" politicos
o
administrativos, muchas veces va en deterioro de lo establecido, valga esto
para
comentar, que YO NO ESTOY DE ACUERDO, con lo que actualmente hacen los
oficiales del registro civil, que con su afan de simplificar, ahora, ya no
ponren en
las actas de Nacimiento o bautismo, el origen y vecindad de los
protagonistas de
las actas, asi antes en las actas se ponia "Fulano De Tal, originario de tal
lugar y
residente o vecino de tal lugar", ahora SIMPLEMENTE se pone "Mexicano" o de
"Nacionalidad Mexicana", por eso exhorto a los miembros de este grupo
Genealogico
y de otros Grupos Genealogicos o Investigadores, que dirijamos una carta
firmada por
todos nosotros al Presidente de la Republica, pidiendo en nombre de
presentes y
futuros investigadores que se vuelva al sistema anterior de poner el lugar
de origen
y procedencia de las personas involucradas en el acto civil o religioso, y
que se trate
de poner mas datos en vez de suprimirlos, asi seria fabuloso para los
futuros
investigadores, que en estas actas por Decreto de Ley, deban incluirse
ademas,
minimo 2 generaciones de ancestros, es decir padres y abuelos, con la
totalidad de
sus datos, origen y vencindad de cada uno, edades y si se puede no solo que
mencionen su edad, sino se fecha exacta de nacimiento, y ahora con el
estableci-
miento del CURP (Clave Unica de Registro de Poblacion), seria fabuloso que
se
incluyera esta clave de cada persona que interviene en el acta y asi tener
otra
valiosa referencia para "Rastrear" a cada persona.
Y otro motivo por el que muchas veces se suprimen palabras o letras o
datos, es
simplemente la flojera, el ocio o el desinteres, asi mismo los
investigadores que
len esto, seguramente se daran cuenta, cuando un parroco o encargado del
registro
civil es flojo y como decia "Jaimito" en el Chavo del Ocho, se quieren
ahorrar la fatiga,
asi es que como a estas personas con el aumento de poblacion se les
acrecentaba
tambien el trabajo, trataban por eso de trabajar lo menos posible y
suprimieran datos
que ahora a nosotros los investigadores nos hacen tanta falta, asi un
parroco o
escribano flojo, suprimia muchos datos, como el origen o vecindad, y a veces
con
dificultad ponia el nombre del padre, a veces de la madre ponia solo el
nombre de
pila y de los abuelos para ahorrarse letras, ponia Abuelos NO conocidos,
esto
tambien pasaba con los oficiales del registro civil, que para ahorrarse
tiempo y
trabajo constantemente no ponian datros, y sobre todo ponian que NO FIRMA
por NO SABER, y MENTIRA, muchas de la veces, si sabian firmar y leer y
escribir,
asi un ejemplo, en la boda civil de una pareja de mis bisabuelos, en el acta
de
matrimonio el oficial puso, que no firmaban por no saber, pero 15 o 20 dias
antes
de el acto en el Acta de Presentacion, mis bisabuelos, si sabian leer y
escribir y
firmaron el acta de presentacion, y uno no puede mas que pensar en forma
graciosa
y decir "a que caray, a mis bisabuelos se les olvido leer y escribir en el
termino de
15 o 20 dias", asi gracias a este desinteres de las personas encargadas de
los
libros, nos han privado a nosotros los investigadores de muchos datos y de
muchas
valiosisimas firmas de nuestros ancestros.

Otro motivo para la supresion de datos es el Economico, se ve
claramente en
las fes de bautismo o boda, cuando mediaba una genereso propina a l parroco
o
escribano, este en agradecimiento ponia las mejores flores en el acta que
escribia,
no dejaba pasar ningun dato y lo adornaba, con el "Don", con el "Doña" y
ponia
los apellidos compuestos sin omitir nada, en cambio cuando a la persona que
bautizaban o desposaban, era "Tacaño" o simplemente era pobre o de casta
inferior
alli ni se molestaban en poner datos, simplemente enfatizaban su baja clase
social
con las castas, poniendo que eran INDIOS o MULATOS o ESCLAVOS, solo ponian
el nombre del padre, el nombre de pila de la madre y ABUELOS NO CONOCIDOS,
y no en pocas ocasiones ponian la leyenda "Se bautizo de LIMOSNA", para que
quedara asentado que era un pobreton que no dio ningun pago o propina por
bautizar o por el matrimonio, y si era español o crillo, pero "Tacaño" o no
generoso,
tambien se notaba, porque alli no ponian el "Don", y no ponian los apellidos

compuestos, sino lo mas simples posibles, como una forma de protestar por no
haber recibido una buena "propina".

En una platica con otros investigadores, se comento que asi como lo
menciona
Jorge Luis Ramirez, alrededor de 1800, en visperas de la Independencia, se
dejaron
de escribir los apellidos compuestos, en los protocolos notariales y
documentos de
tipo mas oficial o comercial, si se siguio usando los apellidos compuestos,
hasta
muy entrado el siglo 19, asi Jorge Luis, si buscas a tus ancestros en
protocolos
notariales o de tipo comercial o de registro de propiedades, es casi seguro
que
alli si los vas a encontrar mencionados con su apellido compuesto de Ramírez
de
Hermosillo, hasta casi llegar a 1900.

Atentamente:

Tomas Alejandro Villegas Gomez.

El día 7/09/06, Ramírez escribió:

Hola:

Yo también tenco esa incógnita desde hace tiempo, porque me he
encontrado con varias actas de bautizmos de mis ancestros en los que no
viene el nombre de los abuelos y solo una leyenda que dice algo así
"abuelos no conocieron", pero lo curioso de esto es que en otros hijos
si los anotaron.

Además también me pregunto porque también los de los Altos de
Jalisco, por poner un ejemplo, simplificaron sus apellidos a tan solo
un apellido, siendo que la mayoría de los apellidos eran compuestos,
por ejemplo el mío era Ramírez de Hermosillo, pero alrededor de 1800,
mis ancestros dejaron de usar el de Hermosillo hasta quedar en solo
Ramírez.

Creo que sería bueno tratar de saber los motivos que orillaron a que
no se interesaran por las relaciones de familia y de linaje.

Saludos.
Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.

1) log in

2) go to "my account"

3) click on the "edit" tab

4) click on "My Mailing Lists"

5) Select the "Digest" buttons

6) click on "Submit"

let me know if you want me to do it, but try first.

joseph

Corrine Ardoin wrote:

>How do you get your messages sent in digest mode? I am not too very
>computer savvy and havn't been able to find this out on my own.
>
>Thanks!
>Corrine
>

From "The Encomederos of New Spain 1521 - 1555" by Robert Himmerich y Valencia p.196:

In 1527 Cortes assigned dona Leonor, dona Isabel's yoouger sister, the perpetual encomienda of Ecatepec [12 miles north of Mexico City; including cabeceras Coatitlan and Acalhuacan, formerly under Tlatclolco, plus 10 or 12 esstancia] as her patrimony. She married Juan Paz in the 1520s and then the poblador Cristobal de Valderrama, after Paz died. Dona Leonor succeeded Valderrama ca. 1537 and transferred the tribute to her daughter, dona Leonor de Valderrama y Moctezuma, who was married to Diego Arias de Sotelo. When Arias was exiled in 1568, the ecomienda went to their son, Don Fernando Sotelo de Moctezuma. In 1593, Fernando transferred a third of the tribute to his youger brother, don Cristobal de Sotelo Valderrama. Don Cristobal's share was reassigned when he died in 1607, and don Fernando's sons soldtheremaining two third shares.

{Gerhard, 266. Schloes and Adams , 27]

From "The Encomederos of New Spain 1521 - 1555" by Robert Himmerich y Valencia p. 195:

Dona Isabel married first Aztec Emperor Cuauhtemoc, first conqueror Alonso Grado [died ca. 1527], poblador Pedro Gallego [died ca. 1531], and Juan Cano. Her inheritance her father included Chapulguacan - also called Macuilsuchil --[125 miles south of Mexico City; nine estancias and 54 lesser settlements], Ocoyoaca [recovered ca. 1540 from Antonio Villagomez, 20 miles southwest of Mexico City],
Tepecxoyuca [28 miles southwest of Mexico City], Cuapanoaya [ near Tepexoyuca, southweest of Mexico City], and Tacuba [50 or more estancias and pueblos in 1593). Tributes were granted in perputity to her heirs. Dona Isabel died ca 1551. Chapulguacan went to Don Pedro Cano, her son Juan Cano. Tacuba was dived between Juan Cano, his sons Pedro and Gonzalo, and dona Isabel's son, don Juan de Andrade [Gallego] Moctezuma by Pedro Gallego. The grants southwest of Mexico Citey were dibided in like manner. Dona Isabel also had a daughter by Cotes, named dona Lenor Cortes Moctezuma who married the metchant Juan de Tolosa.

[Gehard, 184, 186, 247ff. and 271; Schloes and Adams, 29; Liss, 130, Diaz and Castillo, II, 437.]

Juan Cano p, 135:

Cano did not become an encomendero until his 1536 marriage to Isabel Moctezuma [he was her fourth husband]. He was assigned Macuilsuchil [85 miles north of Mexico City, 120 dependecies in 1537]. The pair had four sons and two daughters. Cano renounced his claims to the tribute from this ecomenderia in favor of their son Pedro, in 1560, ten years after dona Isabel died. Pedro was succeed by his daughters in 1570s. Tributes were paid to the Cano family at least until 1631.

[Gerhard, 185 adn 186; Schloes and Adams , 17; Icaza, I, 31; Boyd -Bowman, I , no. 909, 32]

I am in the process of reading, "Conquest Montezuma, Cortés, and the Fall of Old Mexico by Hugh Thomas.

What I have so far is that Leonor Cortes-Moctézuma married Juan de Tolsa/Tolosa and had 1 male child a vicario (priest?) en Zacatecas, a daughter Isabel who married Juan Oñate Gobernador de Nuevo Mexico, another daughter named Leonor who was married to Cristóbal de Zaldívar (Zaldivar's of Nuevo Mexico ).

This book has an Index with sources and 5 Genealogical tables after page 622.

This book says that Isabel had an illegitimate daughter of Cortes, baptised as Doña Leonor Cortes-Moctezuma who was seperated by her mom and taken care of by licenciado Juan Altamirano. This Juan Altamirano was a primo politico (Cousin by marriage) of Cortés. This book also say's that Juan de Tolosa who married Leonor Cortes-Moctezuma was 20 years her senior and he discovered the silver mines in Zacatecas, Mexico.

Maria Elena Gutierrez-Uhlenburg

alfonsogonzalezg wrote:

Hi,

I'm tracing the line of Leonor Cortez Moctezuma, the daughter that was never recognized by his mother Isabel Moctezuma. I have found some records about she was married with Juan de Tolosa, but in others mention that she was married first with Cristóbal de Valderrama, infact the line that goes to Petronila de Moctezuma comes from this one.

Juan de Altamirano (his descendants become the counts of Santiago Calimaya) took care of Leonor Cortez.

I'd like to know if this Leonor Cortez married with Cristóbal de Valderrama is the same that later married with Tolosa. You can check this link:

http://groups.google.com.mx/group/Genealogia-Mexico/msg/62b3788a4ebcaebb

Please don't forget that there was a Leonor Moctezuma (half sister of Isabel).

Does anyone has records about this subject? I mean, records that could prove that the investigation is 100% accurate?

Thank you
Alfonso

This is from Peter Gerhard, The North Frontier of New Spain. He has compiled this from various historical sources:

1570 8,000 indian inhabitants in valley of which 2,400 tributaries

1573 large plague kills off nearly half of the population, leaves only 960 tributaties in valley by end of 1570s

1650 1,753 indians at Tlaltenango, 600 at El Teul, 150 espanoles, 150 mestizos and 56 negros y mulatos

1760 10,350 inhabitants in valley

1799 24,570 inhabitants in valley

1854 23,700 inhabitants in valley - 6,577 in Tlaltenango and 6,316 in El Teul (from my Cubas map)

What type od identification do you use? Driver's license? I don't have a passport. Library card?
I wouldn't want to use social security #.
--
Esther A. Herold

-------------- Original message from Rose Hardy : --------------

>
> Linda,
>
> I received the registration instructions from Ed Elizondo who is charge of the
> Cuba Genweb. Some years ago, there was a posting on the net through Genweb (I
> thought it was Cuba) that had the instructions. Ed has posted the new
> instructions at his site and here it is:
>
> Registering
> The Spanish Ministry of Culture requires the user to register before using the
> AER. Yo do this by clicking on the link titled "ALTA DE USUARIO". You will then
> be presented with a screen which we cannot reproduce here due to copyright
> restrictions.
>
> Note that fields marked with an * must be filled in.
>
> Starting at the upper left and reading line by line left to right, the meaning
> of the various fields are the following:
>
> Identification Data (outer box with dark brown label)
>
> Personal Data (inner box with light brown label)
>
> Type of user (radio buttons) *
> Personal
> Institutional
> Name *
> Surname 1 *
> Surname 2 (mandatory only for Spanish citizens)
> Nationality (drop down list) *
> Spain (default)
> Estados Unidos de America (USA)
> (others not reproduced here)
> e-mail
> Profession (drop down list) *
> Unknown (default)
> Type of identification document (drop down list) *
> National Identity Document (default)
> passport
> Residence card
> others
> Identification document *
> Residence Data (inner box with light brown label)
> Domicile *
> Town *
> Province *
> Postal code *
> Contact telephone
> Country (drop down list) *
> Spain (default)
> Subject of research (outer box with dark brown label)
>
> Main characteristics (inner box with light brown label)
>
> Subject (drop down list) *
> All subjects
> Title *
> Other characteristics (inner box with light brown label)
>
> Epoch (drop down list) *
> High Middle Ages
> XIII century
> XIV century
> XV century
> XVI century
> XVII century
> XVIII century
> XIX century
> XX century
> XXI century
> unknown
> All epochs (default)
> Country (drop down list) *
> All countries (default)
> Motive (drop down list) *
> All motives (default)
>
> User / Password (outer box with dark brown label)
>
> User *
> Password *
> Confirm password *
> Memory aid for password
> Bottom action buttons:
>
> Save
> Clear
> Exit
> Footnotes:
>
> The data collected by this web site will be used for the purpose, in the form
> and with the limits and rights in accordance with Organic Law 15/1999, for the
> Protection of Personal Data.
>
> The fields marked with "*" are mandatory.
>
> The second surname is mandatory only for users of Spanish nationality.
>
> Rose Gonzales-Hardy

Dear Rose, On behalf of beginning and not so computer savvy researchers, I give you many thanks for your information. Never feel that you're talking down to anyone. Instead, your concern for our success has made us feel accepted. I have indeed, tried that site with no success, and I will print your instructions and follow them. Although I have a post graduate degree, it's not nothing in computers or genealogy. Again, thanks so much. Alice BB
--- rosehardy@hotmail.com wrote:

From: Rose Hardy
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Archivos Espanoles En Red website researching
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 19:27:55 -0700 (PDT)

For anyone who is having a difficult time researching in and around Archivos Espanoles en Red. This is how I navigate around the site. I've been using the site for about 3 to 5 years now.

http://aer.mcu.es/sgae/index_aer.jsp

Signing on was difficult for me since I don’t read Spanish very well. I use Google and/or Babelfish for translating spanish.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Once you get your logon, and your on the site, click on "Busquedas".
From the next page go to the upper right hand corner-"Otros Criterios de Busqueda", scroll down to "Contenido" and enter a surname. You can click on "Anadir Contenido" as many times as you need to in order to narrow down a search. I usually do two of them and enter a surname and first name, or a surname and a location. (remember to use different variations of spelling for surnames and even the location name)
You'll have to click on "Otros Criterios de Busqueda" again if you do two or more Contenido's. Because the expanded version disappears. Hit the Buscar button, the site won't let you hit enter on your keyboard.....in fact it'll give you an error. (I still get errors because I'm going too fast). If you get an error, just click on the back button on your Internet Exployer/ Netscape navigator.

I tried Archivos y Fondos and found it wasn't as easy as what I'm used to doing.

As an example: "Lope" on one line and "Ruiz" on the other line. Volla! Lope Ruiz de Esparza's passenger information appears on the first page.

When the results appear and there is a green and red camera icon- those are the digital documents. I click on the red camera and the digital window appears which downloads the document. I usually multi-task and while I have the window up downloading the documents, I work on another search....The thing to remember is that if you click on another camera you override the previous digital information.....sometimes I get carried away and forget that I needed the previous digital information and have to go back to the results page again.

I have saved several digital documents on my computer and they will save as JPEGS.

I hope this informaton helps those new genealogist out there

Rose Gonzales-Hardy
Fresno, CA

Sally, I believe we are related in every branch, in fact I found a piece of
my puzzle on the murillo side, how much do you know about this branch, my
grandma tells me they were indigenous? Juliana Murillo daughter of Jose Antonio
Murillo is my ggg grandmother. I would really appreciate your help.

Letty

Hi Linda!

Sorry for the delay in responding but Deena's response was excellent!
Thanks Deena!

The advantage of viewing the film is that you see the actual document
whereas on familysearch.org you do not. I have found mistakes made by the
LDS person who transcribed the informtion and it was transferred to
familysearch.org. For example, in searching for my "LIENDO" surnames I
found that the LDS team misinterpreted the old style handwriting and made
the surname appear as "SIENDO"..........a lot of names are entered as SIENDO
but should be LIENDO. The "L" looked like "S" and it was confusing. When I
viewed the film I saw their error so I searched the surname "SIENDO" and
sure enough, there were several of the names I had already researched as
"LIENDO" but they had them as "SIENDO".......I do not believe such a surname
exists!

Sometimes we have to do a little detective work to figure out where these
ancestors are hiding! Even worse, they may not be hiding but may have been
"misplaced" by someone with good intentions.......and these become known as
"brick walls"....I am certain that others have great stories on this
subject!

Thanks again, Deena, for your input! That is what makes this such a great
group!

Josie in San Antonio

-----Original Message-----
From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Deena Ortiz
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 11:54 AM
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Vault films

> . . .I'm curious about vault films.. are there films that can only be
> seen by going to Salt Lake in person? Does this mean they are not
> listed online in family search?

ALL the geneaolgy films are listed in the catalog found on familyseaerch
along with where they can be found:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp. Copies of
ALL the films can be viewed by patrons in their local Family History Centers
without having to travel to SLC.

Deena Ortiz wrote: Deena, thank you.. I had no idea they made films to order! I have waited up to 6 weeks in the past so I assumed they only had a specifin number of copies for each and they were all out on loan.. live and learn.
thank you for responding,
Linda in B.C.

> . . .I'm curious about vault films.. are there films that can only be seen
> by going to Salt Lake in person? Does this mean they are not listed online
> in family search?

ALL the geneaolgy films are listed in the catalog found on familyseaerch
along with where they can be found:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp. Copies of
ALL the films can be viewed by patrons in their local Family History Centers
without having to travel to SLC.

The vault refers to a huge storage area in SLC hewn out of a granite
mountain where the temperature is constant and the elements are kept at bay
in order to preserve the films. This is where all the master copies of the
genealogy films owned by the LDS church are stored.

When a film is requested by a patron, a copy is made and sent to the main
library in SLC where it remins -- or the local Family History Center if that
is who made the request, and after three renewals the film will remain in
the local center on indefinite loan as well. I suspect the three renewals
pay for the cost of duplicating the film.

In some cases no one has ever asked to use a film so a copy has never been
made to be viewed and the only copy is the master copy in the vault. Hence
it takes a few days to receive a film from the vault, and if you only have a
few days at the library, it can really impact your visit when the films
aren't available.

If you look at the familysearch website, it will tell you whether the films
are in the vault, which means no copies are available in the library.
However, as Josie mentioned, you can request that a copy be sent to the
library before making the trip.

Hope this helps.

~Deena~

Josie I can't make the trip to Salt Lake but I'm curious about vault films.. are there films that can only be seen by going to Salt Lake in person? Does this mean they are not listed online in family search?

Linda Castanon-Long in B.C.

The towns are almost a stone's throw from each other. Today, driving time is 10-15 minutes. As a kid I rode a bicyle and it took me 1 hour to 1 1/2 hour. Logically on horseback it is 2 hours max. The same goes for Mexticacan, but in the opposite direction from Teocaltiche. Therefore, its is very likely that the old families in the region scattered about amongs all the towns (including La Estancia).

Today the drive to Aguascalientes from Nochistlan is 1 hour. Starting in Nochistlan, the road to "Aguas" as the locals call it, will take you past La Estancia, Apulco, through Teocaltiche, past the fork in the road to Jalostotitlan and Lagos de Moreno and finally Aguascalientes.

Enrique Legaspi Frias

Arturo Ramos wrote:
Rose:

Thank you so much for that information. I think that is definitely the
correct Teresa Ruiz de Esparza... the records in Tlaltenango are simply
missing the Ulloa but the dates and names otherwise match. So you think that
she is the daughter of Maria Ruiz de Esparza and Nicolas Ulloa?

What is the book that you are working on?

Does anybody have the referenced Teocaltiche film so that they can look up
the parents of these two spouses for me?

=====================
From: Rose Hardy
Date: 2006/08/25 Fri AM 12:02:37 CDT
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Arturo,According to the

Arturo,

According to the IGI-

JN. DE ESCOBEDO
Marriages:
Spouse: TERESA DE ULLOA Family
Marriage: 06 JAN 1669 Nuestra Senora De Los Dolores, Teocaltiche,
Jalisco, Mexico
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
M602486 1637 - 1669 0639754

In Nicolas de Anda Sanchez's new book he has listed Teresa as Teresa Ulloa
Ruiz Esparza married Capt. Juan de Escobedo on 6 June 1669 in Teocaltiche.

In my book I'm working on, I have:

Ruiz de Esparza, Maria
The daughter of Lope Ruiz de Esparza and Francisca Gabay. She married Nicolas
de Ulloa. Her parents were known residents of Aguascalientes from 1622 to
1652. She is mentioned in the requested marriage dispensation of her
granddaughter, Elvira de Ulloa to Joseph de Torres on 1 January 1689 in
Teocaltiche, Jalisco.

Rose Gonzales-Hardy