Nuestros Ranchos Site

>
>I spoke with George Ryskamp last night and he agreed for us to record any of
>his seminars for Joseph's Podcast project.....Joseph, he sends his regards!
>
>
>
>
Great Josie,

Mr. Ryskamp's presentations are always high quality and I'm sure this
one will be no different. I appreciate you asking.

I'm wondering who is going to take a digital recorder with them? Do you
happen to have one? Or if no one has one does anyone have a regular
cassette recorder with an external microphone. You'll have to visit the
room where the presentation is to be given and plan your "recording"
strategy ahead of time. the recording device needs to be as close as
possible. The recording just won't come out good enough to listen to if
you are at the back of the room so if possible the recorder needs to be
right up next to the speaker if there is some kind of table for it there.

let me know if you have any questions.

thanks,

joseph

Leticia:

I noticed that the film already existed under Arandas before you added it there as well. So what I have done is delete both of the entries that you made and simply added your name to the pre-existing entry for the film under Arandas.

Just a reminder, you can edit an existing film by clicking on the film number which is in brown (and therefore a hyperlink) as opposed to black like the rest of the listing.

Some further suggestions for the dream trip. If the group planned to drive north from Guadalajara to Aguascalientes and then north to Zacatecas, those interested in visiting San Jose de Gracia and Rincon de Romos will be pleased to learn that San Jose is on the way -- about 35 kilometers north of Aguascalientes-- and Rincon de Romos another 10 kilometers or so north from there. Many of the San Jose de Gracia records are at Rincon de Romos because the original town, since the 1930s is covered by the waters of the Presa Calles. There is an excellent, moderately priced hotel in Aguascalientes called La Noria that I recommend highly. Continuing the return loop from Zacatecas back to Guadalajara, we might want to south on highway 54 toward Villanueva and stop to visit La Quemada. There are some spectacular Precolumbian ruins there that were built by some of our indigenous ancestors.

We would love to visit Guadalajara, then on to Mexticacan to Nochistlan.
Great idea of trying to have a local historian join our tour group. Tino
and I are very flexible, just being with a group of individuals that know
the country and have family in the area would be a wonderful experience for
us.
If possible, we would like to visit Nochistlan and Momax since these two
towns are the birth place of Tino's parents.
Tino and Pat Corbera
Tracy CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alicia Carrillo"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 10:37 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] 2007 Dream Trip Planning.

> ----- Original Message ----
> From: enrique legaspi
> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 12:45:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Distances: Teocaltiche, Nochistlan,
> Mexticacan & Aguascalientes
>
>
> The towns are almost a stone's throw from each other. Today, driving time
> is 10-15 minutes. As a kid I rode a bicyle and it took me 1 hour to 1 1/2
> hour. The same goes for Mexticacan, but in the opposite direction from
> Teocaltiche. (including La Estancia).
>
>
> Muchas Gracias Enrique,
>
> I will keep this in mind for our Dream Trip to the Los Altos region next
> year.
>
> Enrique, maybe you can also give us some tips on where to go for our dream
> trip to study and learn about the histrory of the region. We would also
> like to play and have some fun, a little Mariachi night music will help us
> to unite with our ancestral spirits.
>
> Jose Muños of northern Calif has agreed to do some research on places to
> visit on our 7-10 day dream trip. Anyone who is interested in going, now
> is your chance to give some input to him as to places of interest to each
> of you.
>
> I think we definitely should include Guadalajara and Aguascalientes. And
> of course I would like to go to my ancestral town of Nochistlan. Enrique,
> does Nochistlan have a town historian who could give us a historical tour,
> taking into consideration that this was the first and original
> Guadalajara?
>
> Ok, this is what I propose, we fly into Guadalajara have a carro de sitio
> ready or tour bus depending on how many people will be coming. We can then
> drive to Yahualica and spend the night there as they have adequate hotels.
> Next day onto Mexticacan then to Nochistlan. If we can get a historian for
> a tour then we can have lunch or dinner in Nochistlan at my cousin's
> family restaurant el pollo loco which is very good, maybe with a little
> Mariachi. From Nochistlan onto Teocaltiche where we can spend the night.
> Does anyone know what we can do as in places of interest in Teocaltiche?
>
> After Teocaltiche we can drive to Aguascalientes where there is much to
> see and do. I would like to look for Rincon de Romos, Los Cuervos and San
> Jose de Gracia. If you can make other suggestions for Aguas, speak up now.
> We can spend the day and night in Aguascalientes.
>
> From Aguas, we decide if we want to go north to Zacatecas, Zacatecas the
> state capital or if we want to go southeast or northeast as in Totatiche,
> Tepechitlan, Colotlan, Momax, Jalpa, Jerez, Fresnillo etc. It's our dream
> trip so we can make it anything we want, of course within reason. Speak up
> now if you're interested and give Jose Muños your input so we can help him
> with our needs and wants for this fabulous trip.
>
> Our last place to stay, visit, study and play should be Guadalajara for at
> least 1 day if not more.
>
> Para los que viven en Guadalajara y sus alrededores, quizas nos pueden
> orientar hacia puntos de interes historico y tambien nos pueden acompañar
> en nuestra jornada por la region. Los que vamos de afuera no estamos al
> tanto del ambiente local o los lugares de interes genealogico. Se les
> agredeceria su ayuda con sugerencias para este viaje que se llevara acabo
> el 2007, lo mas probable seria en los meses de Julio o Agosto cuando hay
> mas oportunidad de tomar vacacion.
>
> Atentamente;
> Alicia Avelar Olmos de Carrillo
> San Jose, Calif
>
>
>
>
> Today the drive to Aguascalientes from Nochistlan is 1 hour. Starting
> in Nochistlan, the road to "Aguas" as the locals call it, will take you
> past La Estancia, Apulco, through Teocaltiche, past the fork in the road
> to Jalostotitlan and Lagos de Moreno and finally Aguascalientes.

If you are thinking of going to the larger Archives to do any research
(actually any Archives) it MIGHT be best to contact them ahead of time
to see if there is anything you need to do ahead of time to gain
entrance. You also might want to find their hours and address.

wish I could go. . .sounds like great fun.

joseph

Alicia Carrillo wrote:

>Our last place to stay, visit, study and play should be Guadalajara for at least 1 day if not more.
>
>

Hola Tomás,
No encontre la Genealogia de los Altos de Jalisco. En cual parte de está pagina la encontraste.

Muchas Gracias,
Maria Elena Gutierrez-Uhlenburg
Tomás Alejandro Villegas Gómez wrote:
Hola a Todos:

Para los interesados en la Genealogia de los Altos de Jalisco:

Acabo de encontrar esta pagina de Pegueros, Jalisco,
en la seccion de boletines mensuales trae genealogia sobre
todo de los Gutiérrez de Mendoza que conformaron en gran
medida esta Poblacion que pertenece a Tepatitlán de Morelos
Jalisco, trae el indice de las revistas que publican, donde
estoy seguro trae mas genealogia, lastima que solo publiquen
el inmdice de articulos, deberian tambien poner las revistas
en pdf, seria grandioso.

El link es el siguiente:

http://www.clubpegueros.com

--
Saludos desde Guadalajara:

Tomas Alejandro Villegas Gomez

Josie, et al:

Do we have a good idea of who from the group will be attending the genealogy conference in Salt Lake next week? I can't wait to meet eveyone in person.

A reminder... the schedules in both English and Spanish are posted at:

http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/14949

Corrine, you are a welcome addition to the Nuestros Ranchos list.. so glad you keep perservering to get online. I still occasionally have problems with my limited computer skills.. Amazing how quickly you made contact with extended family, that's great!
again, welcome.

Linda Castanon-Long in B.C.

Corrine Ardoin wrote:
Hi, Everyone:

I seem to be having trouble posting messages. They keep getting returned as
Undeliverable, but I will keep trying.

Anyways, I read some of the old messages and found another that is very
informative. I have been putting together a family cookbook in order to
preserve traditional recipes. Thanks be to God, my mom had her mother's
capirotada recipe and I was blown away by the ingredients, tomatos, cheese
and such. Now, since I've read that these are some of the ingredients used
for a lenten dish, I am not so dismayed. My mother said that her mother
made it for Lent and it was a family favorite handed down. My grandmother
was called "La Tapatia" and my mother, since she was born in Guadalajara,
was also called that by her aunts, which made her feel very special.

Corrine Ardoin

ohoh. . .here we go again with the capirotada! I'm going to get hungry
for it all over again.

seriously can you forward me one of those "Undeliverable" messages to my
makas@nc.rr.com address. You are able to send email to the group so I
don't know why you should be getting them.

thanks,

joseph

Corrine Ardoin wrote:

>Hi, Everyone:
>
>I seem to be having trouble posting messages. They keep getting returned as
>Undeliverable, but I will keep trying.
>
>Anyways, I read some of the old messages and found another that is very
>informative. I have been putting together a family cookbook in order to
>preserve traditional recipes. Thanks be to God, my mom had her mother's
>capirotada recipe and I was blown away by the ingredients, tomatos, cheese
>and such. Now, since I've read that these are some of the ingredients used
>for a lenten dish, I am not so dismayed. My mother said that her mother
>made it for Lent and it was a family favorite handed down. My grandmother
>was called "La Tapatia" and my mother, since she was born in Guadalajara,
>was also called that by her aunts, which made her feel very special.
>
>Corrine Ardoin
>

Emilie,

When I was growing up, my mom who is a fantastic cook never used meat in her enchiladas, she used cooked shredded potatoes, diced onions and cheese and this was her filling for the enchiladas. They were served over romaine lettuce leaves and topped with crema fresca(Mexican Cream) similar to but not as acidic as sour cream and diced cooked carrots and fresh cooked green beans in about 1 inch lengths sauteed in butter and served over the freshly made enchiladas.

Buen Provecho!
Alicia

----- Original Message ----
From: Emilie Garcia
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 12:55:12 PM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Another Zacatecan Recipe

http://lomexicano.com/mexicanfoodrecipeglossary.htm#r

While I was using the glossary in the link above, I saw a recipe for Enchiladas Zacatecanas. They are made with shredded pork and a sauce made with roasted green chiles and cream, and they are served topped with cooked shredded carrots and shredded potatoes and cheese, and slices of avocado. Scroll down until you see "Zacatecanas".

I am anxious to try these, since I cannot eat the green enchiladas with that green sauce made with tomatillos. Those are too highly acidic, and I suffer from acid reflux disease. The cream would also further smooth out the acid from the green chiles.

Emilie Garcia
Port Orchard, WA ---

Emilie,
I would say you are doing very well in your translation.

the recipe lists "dos huevos", but in the directions, they only used the whites to make a meringue).

Alicia, maybe you can help me. I was able to translate most of the ingredients using my Spanish-English dictionary, but some things were not listed there, or I don't know where to obtain some ingredients. Emilie, if you don't have a Tienda Mexicana or Mexican Grocery store nearby, I would be happy to shop for and send them to you, just give me (off line) your mailing address.

Grajeas -- "small sugar plums". Where would I get these? When I lived in Santa Clara Valley, we had sugar plum trees in the yard, dark with yellow flesh, the kind they make prunes from, I guess. Could I substitute dried prunes?,
Emilie, Capirotada being peasant food you would use almost anything you had on hand, seldom would go to the store to shop for one or two ingredients.

Biznagas ---"candied cactus". Do most Mexican import stores have this? Biznaga Yes, most Mexican shops carry this, usually by the cash register in a covered plastic case as the candy is perishable. Dulce de biznaga is firmer than most of the dulces such as calabaza (squash) or camote(sweet potato), although I have never had capirotada with dulce de biznaga.

Molde refractario -- "refractory". Does this simply mean "heat-resistant"? Correct, meaning baking dish

Batir las claras a punto de turron --- "beat the whites to the point of nougat consistency". Does this just mean to beat the egg whites until they are stiff? Correct again.

My mother made a capirotada very similar to this; however, she didn't use the peanuts, meringue, candied cactus, grated coconut or sugar plums.

My husband uses the peanuts, the coconut and various and assorted dried fruits.

Alicia Carrillo in San Jose, Calif

Thank you Felipe for bringing up a good point, not all our ancestors came from illustrious conquestadors, many of our ancestors were carrying their names because they were owned by them or they worked on their properties and had their names taken away and replaced with Spanish or Portuguese surnames making our finding their Indeginous roots almost impossible. I find in the records it wasn't unusual for our non-Spanish ancestors to use more than one surname during their lifetime. The one good thing is the search makes our knowledge of Mexican history more thorough than I ever knew I would gain in the search for my ancestral roots. Not a single piece of information is wasted even when the results show we were on the wrong family line and have to start over in our quest for the truth.. I think our passion for the truth must be fueled by the ancestors themselves to give us a solid family foundation.. What a journey we have set out for ourselves and how important groups like
this are to helping to keep the records correct and available to all who seek them.

Linda Castanon-Long in B.C.

Bable-fish translation:

Home › Tools › Babel Fish Translation › Translated Text Home › Tools > Babel Fish Translation > Translation Results -->

Babel Fish Translation Help
En español: Gracias Felipe por traer encima de un buen punto, no todos nuestros antepasados vinieron de conquestadors ilustres, muchos de nuestros antepasados llevaban sus nombres porque ellos los poseyeron o trabajaron en sus características e hicieron sus nombres quitar y ser substituidas por los apellidos españoles o portuguéss que hacían nuestro encontrar sus raíces de Indeginous casi imposibles. Encuentro en los expedientes que no era inusual para que nuestros antepasados no-Españoles utilicen más de un apellido durante su curso de la vida. La una buena cosa es las marcas de la búsqueda nuestro conocimiento de la historia mexicana más cuidadoso que sabía siempre que ganaría en la búsqueda para mis raíces ancestrales. No una pieza única de la información se pierde incluso cuando los resultados demuestran que estábamos en la línea incorrecta de la familia y que tenemos que comenzar encima en nuestra búsqueda para la verdad. Pienso que nuestra pasión para
la verdad se debe aprovisionar de combustible por los antepasados ellos mismos para darnos una fundación sólida de la familia. Un qué viaje hemos precisado para nosotros mismos y cómo los grupos importantes como esto están a ayudar a mantener los expedientes correctos y disponibles para todos que los busquen.

felipe reyes wrote:
Estimado Joseph Puentes:
Te envío mi investigación genealógica. Se trata de un resúmen, pues tengo
más información de las principales líneas que se integran en las diversas
generaciones. No me he limitado a las cuestiones puramente familiares, sino
que he recuperado el contexto de sus vidas en ranchos, estancias y
haciendas. Actualmente investigo los apellidos Romo de Vivar; González de
Hermosillo; Díaz de León; Muñóz de la Barba y Beltrán de la Cueva, que
sonfamilias puramente españolas. Sin embargo, en la línea Ojeda-Palomino y
Candelas-Palacios, encontré diversos ancestros en calidades de castas:
"moriscos", "mulatos", "saltapatrás" y "lobos", todos siendo esclavos hasta
1821, en la servidumbre de la hacienda de "Trancoso", Zacatecas pero
procedentes, ¡que interesante!, de ancestros en el Africa Occidental.
Saludos
P.D. Te pido una disculpa por la demora, pues ha sido por razones de
trabajo.

_________________________________________________________________
Prodigy/MSN. Más Útil Cada Día http://www.prodigy.msn.com

Hi Joseph,

I am not quite tired of trying to register with the archives, but I would appreciate if someone could let me know what they used for identification in lieu of a passport?

I will try again in the day time sometime.

Thanks,

--
Esther A. Herold

-------------- Original message from Joseph Puentes : --------------

> Let me know if you get totally fed up with trying to register. I'll take
> a crack at registering you in with your email address. It might or might
> not work from my computer I've never tried it before. Let me know. I do
> remember that it was quite tricky.
>
> joseph
>
>
> ayalarobles wrote:
>
> >Joseph, What do you use as an identification do you use when registering? I
> don't have a passport. Also what hours are they available.
> >I tried registering late at night and got a window saying "not available now
> try later".
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Esther

Joseph, What do you use as an identification do you use when registering? I don't have a passport. Also what hours are they available.
I tried registering late at night and got a window saying "not available now try later".

Thanks,

Esther

Corrine...

Whatever source you have for passenger records not begining until the
1900s is wrong. There are very good (and now nearly fully indexed)
passenger records for legal immigration from Spain (all immigration
even of non-Spaniards had to be through Spain for control purposes)
beginning in the mid 1500s not too long after the conquest of Mexico.

You can find all of these records online through AER.

If you are looking for the Cabrals from Zacatecas I think there is a
Mormon genealogist who has done and paid for a lot of research on that
family based in Jerez, Zacatecas. If you search for past postings you
can find a link to his site.

What is your source for the immigration of Francisca Cabral's parents
immigration. It seems that if you know the dates and so forth you
should already have an immigration record, otherwise one can never be
sure. There are plenty of tales about such and such a person being an
immigrant to Mexico when in reality they are as Mexican as
tortillas... i.e. most of the Altos families have documented
genealogies in Mexico goin back to the 1500s despite claims to other
ancestry.

2006/9/10, corrine@ardoin.us :
> Hi,
>
> I have a research question about the following information. I wanted to
> know if anyone knows whether this is true or not. "Mexican customs and
> passenger lists do not begin until 1903, except for documents relating to
> the expulsion of Spaniards during the period 1820-1850." Also, "all persons
> traveling to New Spain had to be cleared by the Casa de la Contratacion in
> Seville."
>
> The reason I am looking into passenger lists at this time is because I am
> also researching my Cabral/Figueroa line, which almost immediately takes me
> to their point of immigration. My great-grandfather Alberto Martin Del
> Campo married a woman named Francisca Cabral Gonzalez, a first-generation
> born Mexican, whose mother and father immigrated to Mexico, Pioquinta
> Gonzalez Figueroa of nobility from Madrid, Spain and Benigno Cabral, a
> merchant sailor from Portugal. They eloped, sailing out of Seville,
> possibly the 1850's, and got married in Zacatecas against Pioquinta's family
> wishes. So, if the customs and passenger lists did not begin until 1903,
> does this mean I won't find a record of their immigration?
>
> BTW, someone placed on the IGI two people with these same names as having
> been born in Guadalajara, Benigno Cabral and Pioquinta Gonzalez. If they
> are the same people as my ancestors, then I think they're wrong, because
> they were not born in Mexico. They didn't cite their source for that
> information, however.
>
> Corrine Ardoin
>
>

If a river has a name like Campos it was definitely named after a
person. Most rivers, mountains, towns had Mexican, i.e. Nahuatl or
other indigenous language names before the arrival of the Spanish and
the word "campos" is certainly Spanish.

You will often find places that have both a Mexican and a Spanish name
to them such as Tlaltenango de Sanchez Roman, tlaltenango meaning
"walled city" in Caxcan and Sanchez Roman being the name of an
illustrious resident post-colonization, or Cholula de Rivadabia, with
Cholula being the old Toltec name of the city and Rivadabia being a
Spanish name.

I know that one of the main rivers in the region where my parents are
from was known as Guajuquilla in the local Tepecan language before the
arrival of the Spanish, and now know as Colotlan (the name given to
the local town by Tlaxcaltec colonists brought by the Spaniards) or
Cartagenas (name given by the Spanish families who settled there in
the 1600s) so you can see the progression of names, with the Spanish
names coming last... and often reverting back to the indigenous names.
The town of Villa Guerrero, Jalisco now uses the Tepecan original
Xonacatic on much of its literature, perhaps as a prelude to the
reversion of the name to the original.

2006/9/10, Corrine Ardoin :
> Hi,
>
> I have been researching the Martin Del Campo name on the Family Search IGI
> and found a couple that may be connected to my family line. It appears
> someone has been doing microfilm research on the family, because there is a
> lot from the same source, the Nuestra Senora De Guadalupe Church in
> Guadalajara, Jalisco. The furthest back I have in my family history is a
> Tomas Martin Del Campo who married Nieves Munoz Aviles and that they resided
> in Guadalajara. Their son's marriage record spells the names just this way
> as I have. The IGI record shows a marriage between a Tomas Martin Del Campo
> and a Maria De Las Nieves Munes, which makes me wonder if these are the same
> people. I plan to look into this for myself because, if it is them, then I
> have found their parents, as well, which will take me one more generation
> back in my ancestry. Their parents names given are Alejandro Martin Del
> Campo and Tomasa Romero (Tomas's parents) and Jose Ynes Munes and Ysidra
> Alcala (Maria de las Nieves' parents). Tomas and Maria de las Nieves were
> married on August 31, 1850, according to this record. My Tomas and Nieves,
> based on their son's age at his marriage, I guessed would have been married
> about 1850-51, so it may be the same people. Still, I have to check on
> that. I have made mistakes before, so eager for someone to be the one I'm
> looking for!
>
> Another Martin Del Campo tidbit: The name "Martin" means "warlike." Mar is
> from the Greek word for war (Mars being the God of War). Del Campo means
> "of the fields" or "of the countryside." So, they were the Martins Of The
> Fields or Countryside. Looking at Steven Hernandez' information that the
> Martin Del Campos he researched came from Revilla de Campos. I looked on
> the map and the Campos River runs through there. I wonder which came first,
> the people and towns named for the river or the river named for the people
> and towns?
>
> Take care,
> Corrine Ardoin
>
>

Guadalajara is derived from the Arabic Wad-al-hidjara, meaning "River
Running Between Rocks". Most of the towns in southern Spain have
Arabic names. Many places in former Spanish colonies were then named
after these towns and thus have Arabic names as well.

Spanish has a great deal of Arabic vocubulary:
- zapato - shoe
- aceituna - olive
- naranja - orange
- matar - to kill (as in check mate or jaque mate which means kill the sheik)

2006/9/10, Corrine Ardoin :
> Hi, Everyone:
>
> I was again catching up with old archival messages. Almost there. Anyways,
> I came across a discussion on the pronunciation of Guadalajara. I, too,
> found out it was named after Guadalajara, Spain, an Arabic name. The part
> of the name, "al," means "the" in Arabic. Like in "Alhambra," in the Los
> Angeles area.
>
> Corrine Ardoin
>

Apellidos recortados o simplificados.

Hola a todos:

Tomás:
Estoy 100% de acuerdo con todo lo que dice sobre los apellidos. En el caso
mio
el apeliido fué "Gonzalez de Hermosillo" por 8 genraciones, en la novena
generación se se recortó a
simplemente "Gonzalez", comenzando con Ygnacio Gonzalez que nacio en 1704
en
Jalostotitlán, Jalisco.

El "González" mas antiguo que he encontrado (Patriarca) de esta linea fué
Alonso González
que nacio en Hermosilla, Burgos, España en 1467. Es muy probable que se le
haya agregado
"de Hermosillo (a) " a su apellido para designar su lugar de origen y mas
facil distinguirlo de otros "González"

En realidad, Juan González de Hermosillo" ( 4a generación) ya no fué de
Hermosilla porque nació en
Mexico D.F. en 1572. Desde entonces pudieron haber usado "González" en
lugar de "González de Hermosillo"

Sobre los "Ramirez de Hermosillo" no se nada porque no he investigado ese
apellido, Sería
posible que también se halla originado en Hermosilla, Burgos, España
tambien?

John González
Wildomar, CA.
1gnzlz@verizon.net

====================================================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tomás Alejandro Villegas Gómez"
To:
Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 12:58 AM
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] 6301 Re: POR QUE DEJARON DE IMPORTAR LOS
ANCESTROS

Genealogia.org.mx] 6301 Re: POR QUE DEJARON DE IMPORTAR LOS ANCESTROS

Hola a Todos:

Saludos desde La Perla de Ocidente, mi bella Guadalajara:

Muy interesante todo lo que dicen con respecto a como se
simplificaron
los apellidos y el desinteres por la Genealogia o Historia Familiar.
Yo por mi parte opino lo siguiente, todo lo anterior como casi todo
en la sociedad
se debe a cuestiones Politicas, Religiosas y Economicas.
Yo creo que una razon por la que se acortaron l,os apellidos
compuestos
si fue el aspecto politico social y sobre todo el practico, primero, si tubo
que ver
la cuestion social de la Independencia y el llamado a la igualdad social, yo
sabia
que en efecto, despues de la guerra de Independencia, se giro un decreto en
el sentido
de que se debian suprimir las Castas o Diferiencias de Clases, es decir, se
ordeno
que se suprimiera de todo documento oficial, las distinciones y castas, y
que se
debia llamarcon igualdad a todos los hombres y mujeres "Ciudadanos" y muchos
de
los que aqui escriben, en sus investigaciones debieron notarlo, se elimino
de las
fés de bautismo y matrimonio, los "Don", o "Doña" , lo de Mestizo, Indio, o
Español y
simplemente se antepuso el "Ciudadano" o "Ciudadana" y seguramente segun
comenta
una persona aqui mismo, tambien por decreto se quito lo de "de" y "de la"
antes de
los apellidos.
Con respecto al desinteres en la actualidad sobre la genealogia o
historia familiar
tambien creo tiene origen en el cambio social dado en la Independencia de
Mexico,
como en toda guerra la historia y las reglas la hacen los vencedores, y todo
lo que
"olia" a los vencidos, se repudiaba y se perseguia, o se enterraba, asi que
la forma
de pensar y actuar de las personas antes de la independencia, se trato de
eliminar
despues de la misma, asi tenemos que antes de la independencia, las personas
pensaban que una de sus grandes herencias era la historia familiar, la
hidalgia o
la nobleza, asi que era muy importante transmitir esta herencia de padres a
hijos,
asi que se fomentaba mucho, aunque sea de forma verbal, el conocimiento de
la
historia familiar, asi era el pensamiento hasta antes de la Independencia,
asi que
despues de la INdependencia, este pensamiento se repudio y se persigio y fue

tabu, "olia" a "maldito Español" o "Gachupin", por eso, para honrar la lucha
de
independencia, toda la forma de pensar y de actuar de "antes" se olvido, y
parte de
este "olivido" fue la tradicion de heredar o darle importancia a la
Genealogia o
Historia Familiar.
Además por cuestion demografica tambien esto ocurrio, ya que la
poblacion
crece y crece exponencialmente y cada vez es mas dificil, atender las
necesidades
de tan creciente poblacion, es por eso que a los encargados de dar servicios
religiosos
o civiles, con el crecimiiento de la poblacion les es mas dificil atender en
lo particular
a cada individuo y se trata de simplificar todo, asi que por razones
demograficas, en
particular a los encargados de "escribir" las actas ya sea religiosas o
civiles, cada vez
se les hace mas dificil, "profundizar" en datos de cadsa individuo, asi que
con la carga
de trabajo, tratan siempre de hacerse la vida mas facil y simplificar al
maximo su
actividad, es por eso tambien que se suprimen de las actas todo lo
anteriormente
dicho, las castas, los titulos, y los apellidos compuestos, incluidos el
"de" y el
"de la", y este BUM Demografico aunado a "loqueras" o "caprichos" politicos
o
administrativos, muchas veces va en deterioro de lo establecido, valga esto
para
comentar, que YO NO ESTOY DE ACUERDO, con lo que actualmente hacen los
oficiales del registro civil, que con su afan de simplificar, ahora, ya no
ponren en
las actas de Nacimiento o bautismo, el origen y vecindad de los
protagonistas de
las actas, asi antes en las actas se ponia "Fulano De Tal, originario de tal
lugar y
residente o vecino de tal lugar", ahora SIMPLEMENTE se pone "Mexicano" o de
"Nacionalidad Mexicana", por eso exhorto a los miembros de este grupo
Genealogico
y de otros Grupos Genealogicos o Investigadores, que dirijamos una carta
firmada por
todos nosotros al Presidente de la Republica, pidiendo en nombre de
presentes y
futuros investigadores que se vuelva al sistema anterior de poner el lugar
de origen
y procedencia de las personas involucradas en el acto civil o religioso, y
que se trate
de poner mas datos en vez de suprimirlos, asi seria fabuloso para los
futuros
investigadores, que en estas actas por Decreto de Ley, deban incluirse
ademas,
minimo 2 generaciones de ancestros, es decir padres y abuelos, con la
totalidad de
sus datos, origen y vencindad de cada uno, edades y si se puede no solo que
mencionen su edad, sino se fecha exacta de nacimiento, y ahora con el
estableci-
miento del CURP (Clave Unica de Registro de Poblacion), seria fabuloso que
se
incluyera esta clave de cada persona que interviene en el acta y asi tener
otra
valiosa referencia para "Rastrear" a cada persona.
Y otro motivo por el que muchas veces se suprimen palabras o letras o
datos, es
simplemente la flojera, el ocio o el desinteres, asi mismo los
investigadores que
len esto, seguramente se daran cuenta, cuando un parroco o encargado del
registro
civil es flojo y como decia "Jaimito" en el Chavo del Ocho, se quieren
ahorrar la fatiga,
asi es que como a estas personas con el aumento de poblacion se les
acrecentaba
tambien el trabajo, trataban por eso de trabajar lo menos posible y
suprimieran datos
que ahora a nosotros los investigadores nos hacen tanta falta, asi un
parroco o
escribano flojo, suprimia muchos datos, como el origen o vecindad, y a veces
con
dificultad ponia el nombre del padre, a veces de la madre ponia solo el
nombre de
pila y de los abuelos para ahorrarse letras, ponia Abuelos NO conocidos,
esto
tambien pasaba con los oficiales del registro civil, que para ahorrarse
tiempo y
trabajo constantemente no ponian datros, y sobre todo ponian que NO FIRMA
por NO SABER, y MENTIRA, muchas de la veces, si sabian firmar y leer y
escribir,
asi un ejemplo, en la boda civil de una pareja de mis bisabuelos, en el acta
de
matrimonio el oficial puso, que no firmaban por no saber, pero 15 o 20 dias
antes
de el acto en el Acta de Presentacion, mis bisabuelos, si sabian leer y
escribir y
firmaron el acta de presentacion, y uno no puede mas que pensar en forma
graciosa
y decir "a que caray, a mis bisabuelos se les olvido leer y escribir en el
termino de
15 o 20 dias", asi gracias a este desinteres de las personas encargadas de
los
libros, nos han privado a nosotros los investigadores de muchos datos y de
muchas
valiosisimas firmas de nuestros ancestros.

Otro motivo para la supresion de datos es el Economico, se ve
claramente en
las fes de bautismo o boda, cuando mediaba una genereso propina a l parroco
o
escribano, este en agradecimiento ponia las mejores flores en el acta que
escribia,
no dejaba pasar ningun dato y lo adornaba, con el "Don", con el "Doña" y
ponia
los apellidos compuestos sin omitir nada, en cambio cuando a la persona que
bautizaban o desposaban, era "Tacaño" o simplemente era pobre o de casta
inferior
alli ni se molestaban en poner datos, simplemente enfatizaban su baja clase
social
con las castas, poniendo que eran INDIOS o MULATOS o ESCLAVOS, solo ponian
el nombre del padre, el nombre de pila de la madre y ABUELOS NO CONOCIDOS,
y no en pocas ocasiones ponian la leyenda "Se bautizo de LIMOSNA", para que
quedara asentado que era un pobreton que no dio ningun pago o propina por
bautizar o por el matrimonio, y si era español o crillo, pero "Tacaño" o no
generoso,
tambien se notaba, porque alli no ponian el "Don", y no ponian los apellidos

compuestos, sino lo mas simples posibles, como una forma de protestar por no
haber recibido una buena "propina".

En una platica con otros investigadores, se comento que asi como lo
menciona
Jorge Luis Ramirez, alrededor de 1800, en visperas de la Independencia, se
dejaron
de escribir los apellidos compuestos, en los protocolos notariales y
documentos de
tipo mas oficial o comercial, si se siguio usando los apellidos compuestos,
hasta
muy entrado el siglo 19, asi Jorge Luis, si buscas a tus ancestros en
protocolos
notariales o de tipo comercial o de registro de propiedades, es casi seguro
que
alli si los vas a encontrar mencionados con su apellido compuesto de Ramírez
de
Hermosillo, hasta casi llegar a 1900.

Atentamente:

Tomas Alejandro Villegas Gomez.

El día 7/09/06, Ramírez escribió:

Hola:

Yo también tenco esa incógnita desde hace tiempo, porque me he
encontrado con varias actas de bautizmos de mis ancestros en los que no
viene el nombre de los abuelos y solo una leyenda que dice algo así
"abuelos no conocieron", pero lo curioso de esto es que en otros hijos
si los anotaron.

Además también me pregunto porque también los de los Altos de
Jalisco, por poner un ejemplo, simplificaron sus apellidos a tan solo
un apellido, siendo que la mayoría de los apellidos eran compuestos,
por ejemplo el mío era Ramírez de Hermosillo, pero alrededor de 1800,
mis ancestros dejaron de usar el de Hermosillo hasta quedar en solo
Ramírez.

Creo que sería bueno tratar de saber los motivos que orillaron a que
no se interesaran por las relaciones de familia y de linaje.

Saludos.
Jorge Luis Ramírez Gómez.