Nuestros Ranchos Site

Hola to you!

I spoke to my father today and he told me that the Gutierrez family had a Rancho El Monte in Acatic. My De La Torre's had tha Rancho El Sauz. I have been to Acatic, Tepa, etc visiting family when I was a youngster. My dad also said that his parents were married in the Church in Acatic. I had an Aunt Clementina from Acatic. In my fathers family my dad and one uncle took the last name Gutierrez, my other uncle took the name De La Torre. I have pictures of Rancho El Sauz, or what was left of it taken in 1980 the last time I was in Acatic. My Aunt Esperanza said all of the land has been sold off probably in 2000. I know absolutely nothing about my family other than the pedigree I posted. My dad is 71 and cannot remember much, but, I am going to see my Aunts this summer in Dixon Ca and will try to see if they remember anything.

Cindy

----- Original Message ----
From: Ronald Reynoso
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 12:50:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Gutierrez y de La Torre

Hola Ladies ,I too have Gutierrez and de La Torre lines. The Gutierrez line hangs out in the region of Los Altos -Jalostotitlan,San Miguel el Alto and San Julian . Jalos lies near Tepatitlan. I have an ancestor Clemente de La Torre Ledesma (which are two names put together some time back) was from Tepatitlan and his offspring which some stayed with de La Torre.
Ronnie Reynoso > From: gsoa@hotmail.com> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 11:30:21 -0500> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)> > > Hi Cindy I have some Gutierrez and De la Torre in my family too. I guess info posted on these surnames will be usful for both of us. I submited a small file, please seeif you can access it, it may be useful for you.> Gabriela> Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 03:25:42 -0700> From: cjg63@sbcglobal.net> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org> Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] (no subject)> > Hello Everyone,> > My name is Cindy Gutierrez and I am researching my father Antonio's family. He was born in Jalisco in a small town called Acatic. He was born on his father's Rancho El Sauz. The family names I am researching are Gutierrez(my grandmother Josephinas family name) and De La Torre (my grandfather Antonios family name). Included are De Moron, Becerra, and a few others that I am still trying to get. My Grandmothers
family had a Rancho near
Tepa, I think, my dad is kind of fuzzy on some things, but I will get all the information I can. Most of my fathers family is here now, although they live part of the year in Acatic. I have been to Mexico many times to see family and take pictures of the Rancho before they sold it. I would love to know more about my family and possibly connect with cousins here in California an> d elsewhere. Unfortunately I no longer am able to speak Spanish so that has limited my ability to get information. I am very by the possibilites of> this website. > > Cindy Gutierrez> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org> _________________________________________________________________> More immediate than e-mail? Get instant access with Windows Live Messenger.>
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GLM_WL_Refresh_instantaccess_042008> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org

------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:24:56 -0700
From: "Miggy GUTIERREZ"
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Are we related?
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Felix, I made some calls. this is the Same Nicolas de la Torre. His
first wife was Maria de la Luz martin daughter of Celso Martin & Tia
Cuca Perez daughter of Casimiro Perez.

Sorry to jump into this family reunion, but..........................

Was this Casimiro Perez married to Petra-del-Refugio Gomez in 1891?

Irma Gomez Gtz de Lucero
N. California.

Nicolas was my Granfather Merced de la Torre first cousin. son of Sisto
whose brother was my great Grandfather Abraham de la Torre b-1856.. Gg
was Jose Bentura de Jesus b-July 13, 1817 Santa ana married to Maria
Feliciana de Jesus Alvarez b-Nov 27, 1822 Ca?ada Onda, jalos-- there is
more if you need -- I found that Nicolas has brothers
Lucio-Antonio-Lalo-Cleofas
-----

I think I made another royal connection for you Ornelas, Vásquez de BAca (The New Mexico Lineage). After long research (Not really just abt 3 hours.) An ancestor of the Vasquez de BAca is Leonor de Orozco and an ancestor of Ornelas is Petronila de Orozco are sister as we know. They descend from ELvira Tovar y Enriquez, according to the New Mexico Genealogical Society but they said Elvira's parents are unknown but she is a close relative to the Dukes of Frias and Marquesses of Berlanaga. I found a Couple in the same time peiord that of Juan Tovar, Lord of Berlanga and Constanza Enriquez. If these are Elvira's parents, not only would she be a cousin to the Dukes of Frias but this would also answer a long question that the society has had. Im pretty positive that these are her parents but no proof. She also has Jewish ancestry back to King David! -Any suggestons? -Daniel Méndez del Camino

Is anyone familiar with these surnames?

DE LA PEDROSA
DíAZ-CASTELLANO
ÁLVAREZ DE LA CRUZ
LOMELíN

i HAVE 3 ÁLVAREZ DE LA CRUZ AND ABOUT 4 DE LA CRUZ
MY RESEARCH IS LEADING ME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT
THESE TWO FAMILIES ARE RELATED. SOME JUST ÁLVAREZ
OR CRUZ. DíAZ-CASTELLANO IS THE INTERESTING ONE I HAD NEVER
SEEN IT BEFORE. ANY HELP OR COMMENTS? GRACIAS! -dANIEL MDC

Just wanted to let everyone know that this website is REALLY FUN and helpful. They have a wealth of information. You can even view the actual images and PRINT at no charge! From the passport of our Lope Ruiz de Esparza to my Juan Perez del Camino who was made to the office of the Real Audencia de Guadalajara on June 6, 1605 in Guadalajara. Im sure ill find much more. Im going to search on the founding families of Aguascalientes a bit more. Let me know if you have any other questions.
-Daniel Mendez del Camino

Even though I absolutely love Helyn's website:

http://pueblosamerica.com

I couldn't find the one place I've been searching for: Rancho del Salto de Los Romeros. I think this Rancho is no longer in existence and I can't seem to find historical maps that have it either. I guess it isn't critical that I find it other than I just would. The below scans from the 1855 census has it 4 Leguas from Santa Maria and sandwiched between Rancho de las Precitas (3 Leguas) and Rancho de los Sauces. I can find El Sauz which is probably the Los Sauces but I can't find my Rancho del Salto de Los Romeros. I found some information about Leguas below but don't know what else to do. Anyone have any thoughts about finding a historical town about 14 miles from Santa Maria de Los Angeles in Jalisco?

http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com/RANCHOS/census/SaltoDelosRomeros_1855Col…

http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com/RANCHOS/census/SaltoDelosRomeros_1855Col…

http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com/RANCHOS/census/RanchosCovered_1855Colotl…

legua [Spanish]

In Spain, ? – present, various units of itinerant distance. From the
late Latin leuca, perhaps influenced by Celtic languages. In Spain, 20th
century , 5.5727 kilometers (approximately 3.46 miles) (UN 1966). In
earlier periods a large number of different legua existed, and sometimes
with a single name having two different magnitudes.
legua marina,
legua marítima,
legua común = 20 to a degree of the terrestrial meridian = 3 millas =
6666 2/3 varas = 20,000 pies, about 5.556 kilometers. The most common
meaning of legua when when not otherwise qualified.
legua común = 800 cordes = 6600 varas = 19,800 pies, about 5.511 kilometers.
legua géographique,
legua de diecisiete y medio al grado = 17½ legua to a degree of the
meridian= 7605 varas = 22,815 pies, about 6.368 kilometers. Made
obligatory for the scales on maps by Phillip V in 1718.
legua de dieciocho al grado = 18 legua to a degree of the meridian.
legua terrestre,
legua de veinticinco al grado = 25 legua to a degree of the meridian, =
15,000 pies, about 4.225 kilometers.
legua de quince al grado = 15 legua to a degree of the meridian, about
7.429 kilometers.
legua de camino for roads constructed after 1766, = 4800 pasos = 8000
varas = 24,000 pies, about 6.620 kilometers
legua jurídica = 3 millas = 24 estadios = 3000 pasos = 5000 varas =
15,000 pies, about 4.175 kilometers. Abolished in 15681587 by Phillip
II. Sometimes called the legua legal.

Lei 8, Libro 5, Tiacute;tulo 25.
Recopilacioacute;n de las leyes de Castilla
Madrid, 1775.
legua legal 6.958 kilometers
legua de posta 13,900 pies, 3.894 kilometers. Later = 4 kilometers.

I'm doing a bit of fishing and was wondering if someone has this film
if you would mind doing a look up for me?

joseph

====================

Joseph Puentes
http://h2opodcast.com (Environment Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.blogspot.com/ (Blog for above)
http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)
http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
Genealogy)

GERTRUDIS PUENTE Pedigree

Spouse: MA. NICODEMAS VAZQUEZ Family
11 AUG 1831 San Cosme, Villa De Cos, Zacatecas, Mexico

M605383 Film: 1094899

Hello everyone my name is Lona Rivera, I am new to Nuestros Ranchos, but not to genealogy.
I am beginning research on my mother's Perez line. I know that my great grandfather was Magdaleno Perez born about 1886 at Hacienda de Cedros, Zacatecas. He married Anacleta Fraire in 1905 at Viesca, Coahuila. They had three children including my grandfather Aniceto Perez who was born in 1909 and then they both died and the children were raised by family members. I would like to communicate with anyone who might have information on the Hacienda de Cedros area or who has family from there. I have ordered films from the LDS Family History Library, but they are on back order, so I won't get them for awhile. Thanks

Hello Ronnie and Irene,

My husband's maternal great-grandmother Maria Aniseta Losano Aguirre bapt 20 April 1829 Nochistlan was married to a Domingo Lomelin on 27 Nov 1857 (IGI M606263 Nochistlan). This couple were the parents of Agustin Aguirre Lomeli (IGI J606246 Nochistlan).
Maria's second marriage on 28 Dec. 1864 was to Jose Victoriano Rodriguez Perez, they were the parents of Jose Fernando Aguirre Perez (my husband's maternal grandfather).

This ancestral line is posted in the GEDCOM section of Ranchos...
Corbera, Pat Silva (View in Gedcom Area; Rancho de Los Pintos Parroquia de Momax, Zacatecas; more)

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Ronald Reynoso

>
> Hola Irene,My name is Ronnie Reynoso, I too have several Lomeli,Lomellini.and
> Lomelin ancestors,which are the sames tree. Starting with Carlos Lomellini and
> wife Maria Benavides married in 1609 Nochistitlan. Are you of the same branch ?
> If I was betting man, odds are almost certain.
> Ronnie Reynoso

I am Irene (Nena) Garcia-Sandoval and I want to take this opportunity to introduce myself to what appears to be quite a lively and active geneological group with names that belong to me too!
I was born and raised in Texas, and did some geneology research about 10 years ago, but I have forgotten what little I learned and will have to go through the learning process again. I'm really happy to see how much more information there is out there now and am excited about getting back to it.
My previous research has kept me concentrated in Los Altos surrounding Teocaltiche on my Mom's side; the actual villages/ranches being Ostotan, Mexticacan, Nochistlan, Ypalco, Puerto de Capellania, and Canada de Delgadillos. I assume these are all in the vicinity of Teocaltiche, but I could be wrong. The most common names being Sandoval/Sandobal, Ortiz, Sepulveda, Ynigues,Delgadillo, and Andrade.
On my Dad's side, I can only find back to my great-grandparents and they're all around Cruillas, Tamaulipas. Names on this side are Garcia, Alcala, Hernandez and Aguilar. If anyone knows about a Geneological Society for this area, I'd appreciate any information on that.
Thanks in advance for any help, and I'm very happy to have found such a sharing group of people.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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In my researching through baptism records, in those from the early eighteen
hundreds, 1807-1818, which I have thus far found, I have come across an
abbreviated term, possibly Latin and always underlined. I am unable to
decipher the meaning of it. I was wondering if anyone knew of its meaning.
It reads: "Vt. Supra." It is placed at the very end of each record,
following the standard "para que conste lo firme: Vt. Supra."

Thank-you!
Corrine Ardoin
Santa Maria, California

I wanted to pass on publicly a major message of thanks to my good
friend, Kitty Cortez. Her work and her husband, Rich's work for the
group have been fabulous. For many many months Kitty has single handedly
been taking care of both the 15 and 30 day notices and due to medical
problems with her Mom she has had to discontinue this volunteer work. My
wishes and I'm sure the wishes of other NR members are for good health
to return.

Thanks again Kitty your help has been invaluable and please don't think
about this another second. The family always comes first.

thanks,

joseph

====================

Joseph Puentes
http://h2opodcast.com (Environment Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.blogspot.com/ (Blog for above)
http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)
http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
Genealogy)

My name is Joshua Goodson. I do not have much information except what I have learned from my mother. My Grandfather was born in Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico. His name was Francisco Romo Villanueva. He was born about 1923 and died in 1997 in California, USA. I am not sure when he moved to the United States. I was told he had a couple of sisters and maybe two brothers from Aguascalientes. They may still be living so cannot post their names. I have pictures that were sent from his family in Aguas (all were dated in the 1950's and were stamped with by a portrait studio in Aguascalientes, Aguascalientes, Mexico. I really want to know more about him and my ancestors. He also had nephews and other family there. If anyone know anything at all, please let me know. I am new to this! Thank you....

Joshua http://www.nuestrosranchos.org/node/16496

____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

Hi,

I'm looking for a volunteer to send out 15 day notices to new applicants
that haven't responded after they have initially applied and then send
out a second and final notice to applicants that haven't responded after
30 days of applying. I have form letters all made up and it would
involve looking at a list and setting up a schedule for yourself to send
both 15 day notices and 30 day notices once every other week.

email me if you are interested in this 1-2 hour per week job. No salary
but I will say thanks (often).

joseph

====================

Joseph Puentes
http://h2opodcast.com (Environment Podcast)
http://h2opodcast.blogspot.com/ (Blog for above)
http://PleaseListenToYourMom.com (Women's Peace Podcast)
http://NuestraFamiliaUnida.com (Latin American History Podcast)
http://nuestrosranchos.org (Jalisco, Zacatecas, and Aguascalientes
Genealogy)

I ordered up the microfilm for Huejucar, Jalisco Catholic Church marriages for 1885-1908. I hoped that it would reveal a lot of info on our ancestors because there should be about 20+ ancestors in the records.
I went page by page scanning for DE LEONs, CARLOS, BANUELOS, FLORES, VILLANEDAs, etc. I occasionally saw some entries that "could be's" but with half of the men being Jose and half the women being Maria, it was not conclusive if I was looking at an ancestor of ours..
My main goal was to find marriage records for the DE LEON siblings of my GGF Nicolas de Leon. I especially wanted to find my grandparents Francisco de Leon and Petra Flores.
I was surprised to find the "lack" of many of those possible records. I suppose that one of 3 possiblities occurred: 1. that person died young, (a good possibility) 2. that person never got married, (unlikely but possible)and 3. that person married elsewhere (most likely).
Here's what I did find:
Librado Villaneda (my maternal grandmother Tiburcia's brother) was probably married twice. On 21 Jan 1890 he married Maria Refugio Gomes. Padrinos were Hilario Mendoza and Maria Cruz Frutos (?). On 15 Jan 1899 he married M. Paula Enriques. Padrinos were Juan de Havoy (?) and Apolonia Villaneda.
Nicolasa Villaneda (Tiburcia's sister) married Esteban Gomez on 29 Jan 1899.
Ysac Banuelos married M. Teodora Flores (Tia Lola) on 24 Jan 1901. Padrinos were Santiago Banuelos and Ramona Banuelos.
GF Francisco de Leon married Petra Flores on 26 Aug 1903. Padrinos were Severiano Lopez and Andrea Gonzalez. I was hoping for a birthdate or at least how old he was. No such luck.
Other interesting facts that I found: the witnesses for the marriage were usually always the same people. I suspect that they either worked at the Catholic Church or "hung" around the church's entrance and offered their services as witnesses (probably for a monetary fee).
For the most part it was pleasant to see such good penmanship in the marriage records.
Then I discovered that the author of the marriage records was kind enough to provide an index of those marriages listong names, dates, and numbered log entry very near the end of the marriage log! WOW! What a great concept!

Hello Jan and Alicia ,ok which school of thought is correct ? Is Benavides Jewish or Arabic Surname. I don't know why I tend to go with the Arabic thought due to the way it spells out.Prima Alicia in the conference did Maria Benavides line have any thing to do with the Benavides Line that settled in orthern Mexico and Texas if so how ? Tu primo Ronnie pariente acasi todos de Los Altos> Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 11:22:40 -0700> From: janjaeckle@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Alteño Surnames> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org> > My language instructor said that Benavides was originally Jewish, from Ben-David; then the Spanish 'ez' appeared when the name carrier came to Spain during the period of moorish control of Spain before Jews were ordered out of Spain in 1492. > > Alicia Carrillo wrote:> ----- Original Message ----> From: Ronald Reynoso > To: research@nuestrosranchos.org> Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 9:32:04 AM> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Alteño Surnames> Hola Primo ,I have alot of Lomellini,Lomelin and Lomeli and they all are the same . Carlos Lomellini was from Genoa,Italy and married Maria Benavides en Nochistlan,en 1609.> > I know this is not about Lomelin but about Benavides. One of the presenters at the Conference in Saltillo was Benavides......he spoke in great detail about his family's history in Northern Mexico, he proceeded to tell us that this surname's origins are Arabic from Medieval times, see below, so not only does this marriage have Italian origins but Arabic/Spanish origins.> > Don't you just love it........we are all mutts!!> > Last NameBenavidesSpanish: patronymic from the common medieval personal name Ben> Avid, of Arabic origin, from ibn ?Abd ‘son of the servant(of God)’ see Benavidez.> > > > > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org> > > > ---------------------------------> Special deal for Yahoo! users & friends - No Cost. Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org

Thank you, I am saving all the info on Ornelas and Vaca surnames. I am not far advanced so it will be sometime before I get there.

-Esther Jordan

I think I made another royal connection for you Ornelas, Vásquez de BAca (The
New Mexico Lineage). After long research (Not really just abt 3 hours.) An
ancestor of the Vasquez de BAca is Leonor de Orozco and an ancestor of Ornelas
is Petronila de Orozco are sister as we know. They descend from ELvira Tovar y
Enriquez, according to the New Mexico Genealogical Society but they said
Elvira's parents are unknown but she is a close relative to the Dukes of Frias
and Marquesses of Berlanaga. I found a Couple in the same time peiord that of
Juan Tovar, Lord of Berlanga and Constanza Enriquez. If these are Elvira's
parents, not only would she be a cousin to the Dukes of Frias but this would
also answer a long question that the society has had. Im pretty positive that
these are her parents but no proof. She also has Jewish ancestry back to King
David! -Any suggestons? -Daniel Méndez del Camino

JUST OUT OF CURIOSITY I HAVE NOTICED MANY SURNAMES GO BACK TO NOBILITY ONCE YOU TRACE IT; IF YOU'RE LUCKY! I KNOW THERE ARE 4 TYPES OF SURNAMES OR 5 I THINK.

-COMPUESTO DE PATERNAL Y MATERNAL

*LIKE MOST COMMON PEOPLE ONE SURNAME FROM MOM AND DAD

LIKE MY GF MARTíN MéNDEZ Y DE SERRANO

-COMPUESTO

LIKE THE RUíZ DE ESPARZA
*NEVER CHANGES USUALLY

RUíZ DE ESPARZA LITTERALLT MEANS THE SON OF RUY (ROY) OF ESPARZA

*PATRONíMICO (-EZ SUFFIX

*LOCALIDAD USUALLY FROM I.E. MARíA DE LISALDE

AND *DESCRIPTIVE LIKE JOSé DELGADO

MY QUESTION IS ABOUT LOCALIDAD AND COMPUESTO
IM STARTING TO THINK THAT ONLY NOBLES WERE ALLOWED TO
TAKE ON A SURNAME IN THE BEGINNING, IN SPAIN AT LEAS, I RECENTLY
READ IN ANCESTRY. COM (WILL POST THE ARTICLE LINE SOON!) ALMOST ALL PEASANTS DIDNT SURVIVE IN THE MIDDLE AGES. sPAIN HAS AN INFAMOUS STATISTIC THAT ABOUT 80% OF PEOPLE WERE NOBLE IN MIDDLE AGES. WHICH LED ME TO BELIEVE THAT SURNAMES REALLY MEAN MORE THAN JUST A LAST NAME. i NEVER LOOKED AT SURNAMES IN THIS FASHION. LIKE AN EXAMPLE WOULD BE CASTILLA A "PEASANT" COULDNT TAKE ON THIS SURNAME CASTILLA BECAUSE HE MIGHT GET "KILLED" TAKING CASTILLA WOULD MEAN YOUR A DESCENDANT OF A KING IN CASTILLA.? i THINK IM GETTING CONFUSED, JUST THOUGHT IT WAS A NEW
HIGHLIGHT ON SURNAMES. SURNAMES IN SPAIN STARTED AROUND 9-10TH CENTURY. THE FAMOUS ONES WERE CREATED LIKE GONZALEZ, MENDEZ, FERNANDEZ, GUTIERREZ, RAMIREZ AND SO ON. ANY COMMENTS? PLEASE! -DANIEL MéNDEZ DEL CAMINO

Patricia, I noticed that you are from San Diego and so am I. I would like to talk to you about Portezuelo (in La Barca)Jalisco. Will you call me at 619-934-8704, or e-mail me at esther@enhanced.org ? Thank you.

--Esther Jordan, Chula Vista, CA

Sunday, March 30, 2008am

Dear Researchers--

We just arrived home from a trip to Jalisco, Mexico.
We stayed most of the time in Santa Rita, Ayotlan.
However we did make some day trips out to a few
villages in the Atotonilco el Alto municipio, and to
the town of Capilla de Guadalupe.

In order to reach those places and to go on a better
road, we went the back way from Santa Rita and passed
the village of Portesuelo in the La Barca municipio.
A number of years ago, we went to Portezuelo (it can
be spelled either way in the old records) because some
of our Godinez ancestors lived there.

I was surprised to see that there were so many other
places called Portesuelo in Jalisco. I am glad we can
share information with one another and learn more.

Sincerely,
Patricia Diane Godinez
San Diego

--- Erlinda Castanon-Long
wrote:

> Jonathan, you are too modest! You have a wonderful
> reputation for the integrity of your work and I know
> you've worked countless hours in researching and
> sharing what you've learned. I'm really glad you're
> part of this group!
>
> I tried accessing your site a couple of times and
> couldn't get past your home page, can't figure out
> what I'm doing wrong. I did contact you before
> since I have Rolon ancestors from Zapotlan El
> Grande/Ciudad Gusman as does your wife but we never
> made a family connection.
>
> thank you for sharing the Portezuelo information.
> Linda in Everett
>
> Jonathan wrote:
> Linda,
>
> First, of all I am no expert (just a person who has
> been very lucky in
> researching).
>
> Second of all there are a total of 9 different towns
> in Jalisco with
> Portezuelos in their names. Here is a list of them
> with their municipios:
>
> Ameca
> El Portezuelo
>
> La Barca
> Portezuelo
> El Rincon de Portezuelo
>
> Hostotipaquillo
> Portezuelo
>
> Lagos de Moreno
> Portezuelos de Casillas
> Portezuelos de Gonzalez
>
> Pihuamo
> Portezuelo
>
> Talpa de Allende
> El Portezuelo
>
> Tamazula de Gordiano
> Portezuelo Nuevo
> Portezuelo Viejo
>
> Tomatlan
> El Portezuelo
>
> I hope that, this helps someone.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them
> fast with Yahoo! Search.

Hola Jorge Luis.? Acabo de preguntarle a mi mama y dice que la tia de mi papa, Alejandra Ibarra, vivia en La Alaja y murio como unos 8 anos.? Los hijos de ella eran Charros.??No nos damos cuenta de mas datos. Sera la misma persona que tu tatarabuela???

Gracias.? Marisela

-----Original Message-----
From: research-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 6:24 pm
Subject: Research Digest, Vol 26, Issue 25

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Today's Topics:

1. Quezada, Ibarra in San Gaspar de los Reyes (hmtsam@aol.com)
2. Re: Quezada, Ibarra in San Gaspar de los Reyes
(Jorge Luis Ram?rez G?mez)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:01:52 -0400
From: hmtsam@aol.com
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Quezada, Ibarra in San Gaspar de los Reyes
To: research@nuestrosranchos.org
Message-ID: <8CA5F0C8DD8B12C-B48-23B@webmail-ne11.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Me llamo Marisela Quezada y vivo en Fresno, California.? My espanol es un poco
limitado asi es que me discuplan por favor.? Estoy empezando my genealogia y
quisiera saber si alguno de ustedes me pudieran ayudar.? Creo que un miembro
nombrado "Jose Ibarra" iva a preguntarle a su familia si conocia los nombres de
mis abuelos y bisabuelos pero perdi su direccion.? Mis ancestros son los
siguientes (creo que todos vivian cercas de San Gaspar de los Reyes y
Jalostotitlan, Jalisco):

Abuelos:? Mateo Quezada casado con Francisca Ibarra.

Bisabuelos:? Emigdio Quezada casado con Micaela Ibarra.
?????????????????Guadalupe Vital Ibarra casado con Geronima Guerrero.

Solamente me doy cuenta de una hermana que tenia Francisca Ibarra con nombre de
Alejandra Ibarra y vivia cercas de Guadalajara.? Creo que Alejandra Ibarra
fallecio no hace mucho.

Segun dicen, my abuelo Mateo Quezada tenia hermanos y hermanas pero huvo un
desacuerdo y todos se desapartaron.? Hoy hay unos Quezadas que viven en Rancho
Viejo que es un ranchito cercas de Teocaltiche, Jalisco.?

Alguien pudiera eluminarme en como empezar mi investigacion?? Ya fui al Family
History Center en Fresno y he buscado al internet.? Encontre a Guadalupe Ibarra
casado con Geronima Guerrero en Jalos en 7/4/1883.? Y el bautizo de Micaela
Ibarra en Jalos en 7/5/1882.?

Tengo tantas preguntas si alguien me pudiera dar algo de informacion les
agradeceria mucho.?

Gracias,
Marisela

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:55:17 -0600
From: Jorge Luis Ram?rez G?mez
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Quezada, Ibarra in San Gaspar de los
Reyes
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hola Marisela, me llama la atenci?n el nombre que mencionas de la hermana de tu
bisabuela Francisca Ibarra, ya que mi tatarabuela se llamaba Alejandra Ibarra de
la Torre, pero no tengo noticias de otros hermanos de ella as? que no te puedo
asegurar que sea ella, y viv?a en Tepatitl?n, como a una hora de distancia de
Guadalajara, pero ella muri? hace mucho creo.Saludos.Jorge Luis Ram?rez G?mez.
_________________________________________________________________
?Aburrido de los mismos videos de siempre? Descubre Prodigy/MSN Video
http://video.msn.com/?mkt=es-mx

------------------------------

As Tomas mentioned--Often people are very poor and can not offer a
donation. This is when they annotated "de limosna."

The Church does NOT charge for "services" or better said charge for
receiving Sacraments. Since the Catholic Church does not make people
tithe any percentage of their wages, nor request W-2 forms of their
congregation, it ran and does run on donations given by people of
whatever they feel they can afford. These donations were/are mainly
collected (collection basket) during Church services.
When receiving sacraments, you give/gave the priest a donation for the
Church which in my experience has NEVER been solicited in Mexico, nor
here in the U.S.A.

When I was Confirmed in Mexico at the ripe age of 16, I showed up to the
Basilica in San Juan de los Lagos (Jalisco) with my mother and
Godmother. The Bishop made his rounds as we accepted the Sacrament of
Confirmation, and he NEVER asked for any donation, nor did I see money
exchange hands. There is NO way he could have annotated who gave and
who didn't either. Maybe in the old days before Independence, these
sacraments were more individualized.... So donations would have been
more apparent?
I have only seen this--de limosna and race annotated before Mexico's
Independence from Spain, and not after. Of course, I've only researched
Los Altos, so I can't speak for other areas.

"De limosna" meant that the individual(s) were not able to give a
donation pure and simple. I agree that I have run into old records in
my research that "smelled" of racism or disdain, and this saddens me
greatly too. We have to remember that priests are/were human, and that
Mexico is/was a very class conscious society, especially in Los Altos
and especially at this time before the Independence.

Irma
Sacramento, CA.

-----Original Message-----
From: general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
[mailto:general-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] On Behalf Of Erlinda
Castanon-Long
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 10:07 AM
To: general@nuestrosranchos.org
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Mas de Villegas

I'm hoping, like Tomas, that someone can translate the phrase "de
Limosna"
for me. My Spanish is poor but I did understand most of what Tomas
shared and I also have ancestors who were listed as Indio/India
laborio/laboria but don't understand the phrase de Limosna.

Someone else in the group once said that if you had money then it
didn't matter what your nationality was. I have a line in Jerez
Zacatecas listed in the earlier records as Indio and Indio laborio but
they married "Espanol"
and within 1 generation they were classified as Espanoles. My Indio
Garcia line married into the Caldera line and an Indian was never seen
again.... I guess the lesson is just like today.. money talks.

Linda in Everett

Tom?s Alejandro Villegas G?mez wrote:
En Espa?ol:
ponian al
final de las actas o fes de bautismo o matrimonio las leyenda "Se
Bautizo de Limosna" ose "Caso de limosna", para dejar eso si, la
evidencia de que estos "indios laborios" eran muy pobres.

---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try
it now.

Me llamo Marisela Quezada y vivo en Fresno, California.? My espanol es un poco limitado asi es que me discuplan por favor.? Estoy empezando my genealogia y quisiera saber si alguno de ustedes me pudieran ayudar.? Creo que un miembro nombrado "Jose Ibarra" iva a preguntarle a su familia si conocia los nombres de mis abuelos y bisabuelos pero perdi su direccion.? Mis ancestros son los siguientes (creo que todos vivian cercas de San Gaspar de los Reyes y Jalostotitlan, Jalisco):

Abuelos:? Mateo Quezada casado con Francisca Ibarra.

Bisabuelos:? Emigdio Quezada casado con Micaela Ibarra.
?????????????????Guadalupe Vital Ibarra casado con Geronima Guerrero.

Solamente me doy cuenta de una hermana que tenia Francisca Ibarra con nombre de Alejandra Ibarra y vivia cercas de Guadalajara.? Creo que Alejandra Ibarra fallecio no hace mucho.

Segun dicen, my abuelo Mateo Quezada tenia hermanos y hermanas pero huvo un desacuerdo y todos se desapartaron.? Hoy hay unos Quezadas que viven en Rancho Viejo que es un ranchito cercas de Teocaltiche, Jalisco.?

Alguien pudiera eluminarme en como empezar mi investigacion?? Ya fui al Family History Center en Fresno y he buscado al internet.? Encontre a Guadalupe Ibarra casado con Geronima Guerrero en Jalos en 7/4/1883.? Y el bautizo de Micaela Ibarra en Jalos en 7/5/1882.?

Tengo tantas preguntas si alguien me pudiera dar algo de informacion les agradeceria mucho.?

Gracias,
Marisela

Juan Jose, dispensa que no lei tu mensaje antes de mandar el mio.? Muchas gracias por preguntarle a tu familia.? Si me pudieras conseguir los numeros de telefono de esos senores seria muy agradecida.?

Gracias,
Marisela Quezada

-----Original Message-----
From: general-request@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Sent: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 4:14 pm
Subject: General Digest, Vol 26, Issue 16

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DAILY DIGEST
****************************************

Today's Topics:

1. Archivo hist?rico de Jalostotitl?n, Jalisco (jjramirezi)
2. RE: Archivo hist?rico de Jalostotitl?n, Jalisco
(Jorge Luis Ram?rez G?mez)
3. Re: De limosna---General Digest, Vol 26, Issue 15
(Irma GomezLucero)
4. Re: De limosna---General Digest, Vol 26, Issue 15 (Ronald Reynoso)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:06:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: jjramirezi
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] Archivo hist?rico de Jalostotitl?n,
Jalisco
To: general@lists.nuestrosranchos.org
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Estimado Jorge:

De acuerdo a lo comentado, el fin de semana pasado estuve en Jalostotitl?n y
platicando con algunas personas me confirmaron que no existe un archivo
historico como tal, unicamente el archivo parroquial.

Tambien me recomendaron contactar a dos historiadores de Jalos: Jose Antonio
Gutierrez y Jose Trinidad Padilla Lozano. El primero vive en Aguas y el otro en
Guadalajara, ya que ellos han tenido acceso a archivos de particulares para la
realizacion de sus libros y nos pudieran orientar.

Espero que en un par de semanas a mas tardar me consigan los numeros telefonicos
de Don To?o y Don Trino ya sea que quieras hablar directamente con ellos o que
yo te consiga la informaci?n, como t? gustes.

Saludos a todos

Juan Jos? Ram?rez Ibarra
San Juan de los Lagos, Jalisco

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 19:06:18 -0600
From: Jorge Luis Ram?rez G?mez
Subject: [Nuestros Ranchos] RE: Archivo hist?rico de Jalostotitl?n,
Jalisco
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

_________________________________________________________________
Por ser usuario de Hotmail, ya tienes un Space ?Aprov?chalo!
http://home.services.spaces.live.com/

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:00:56 -0700
From: "Irma GomezLucero"
Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] De limosna---General Digest, Vol 26,
Issue 15
To:
Message-ID:
<52B914D66FE6974A952ECCACE81B364201BCB11D@libmail1.libad.csus.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

As Tomas mentioned--Often people are very poor and can not offer a
donation. This is when they annotated "de limosna."

The Church does NOT charge for "services" or better said charge for
receiving Sacraments. Since the Catholic Church does not make people
tithe any percentage of their wages, nor request W-2 forms of their
congregation, it ran and does run on donations given by people of
whatever they feel they can afford. These donations were/are mainly
collected (collection basket) during Church services.
When receiving sacraments, you give/gave the priest a donation for the
Church which in my experience has NEVER been solicited in Mexico, nor
here in the U.S.A.

When I was Confirmed in Mexico at the ripe age of 16, I showed up to the
Basilica in San Juan de los Lagos (Jalisco) with my mother and
Godmother. The Bishop made his rounds as we accepted the Sacrament of
Confirmation, and he NEVER asked for any donation, nor did I see money
exchange hands. There is NO way he could have annotated who gave and
who didn't either. Maybe in the old days before Independence, these
sacraments were more individualized.... So donations would have been
more apparent?
I have only seen this--de limosna and race annotated before Mexico's
Independence from Spain, and not after. Of course, I've only researched
Los Altos, so I can't speak for other areas.

Ricardo, que gusto, nuevamente eres la luz en el oscurantismo de mi enigma familiar, muchas gracias. De verdad los Valdivia son morenos? conservo una foto de la boda de mis abuelos y mi abuela al igual que sus hermanas eran muy blancas y con ojos azules o verdes, creo que ya te había mandado esa foto te la vuelvo a mandar. La novia es mi abuela Agustina Valdivia Sánchez, a su lado sentada en el piso su hermana Conrrada, a su lado en la fila de atrás, enseguida del niño son Guadalupe y Rita, otras hermanas de mi abuela, como puedes ver son blancas y 2 son rubias, las tres hijas de mi abuela (mi madre y sus dos hermanas) son también blancas y mis dos tías son pelirojas (naturales). Creo que eso lo podremos arreglar con pruebas de ADN, existe gente que identifica el porcentaje de sangre de cada grupo étnico y continente en el ADN de un individuo, si muchos descendientes de los Valdivia nos haríamos esa prueba podríamos identificar las características comunes de la familia y determinar a que grupo pertenecen. Por cierto, tu sabes como donde y como hacerse éstos exámenes? Te pido de favor que en cuanto tu tiempo te lo permita imprimas la foto y se la muestres a los primos de mi abuela para ver si se acuerdan de ella y sus hermanas. No sé nada de las hermanas de mi abuela. Hasta pronto. Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez.> From: rickrod.com@gmail.com> To: research@nuestrosranchos.org> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 12:22:39 -0600> Subject: Re: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sanchez y Valdivia de San Miguel el Alto> > Hola primo,> Gusto en volver a saber de ti. Ahí te va:> > Cirila Sánchez Sánchez, hija de Gregorio Sanchez y Lucia Sanchez (casados el> 1 de Febrero de 1884 en San Miguel el Alto [rollo #279454]), hasta ahí tengo> por el momento hasta que vaya a San Miguel o a algún centro familiar de LDS> a buscar el acta de matrimonio.> > La gran mayoría de los Valdivia que yo conozco de San Miguel el Alto y de> aquí de Valle de Guadalupe son morenos, lo cual me hace creer que procedemos> por este lado en su mayoría de personas nativas de la región. Aunque te diré> que los de esta rama llevamos el apellido Valdivia proveniente del> matrimonio entre Sebastián Valdivia e Isabel Martin, aproximadamente por el> año de 1700 en Jalostotitlán. No sé si esta pareja haya sido la primera con> este apellido, quizás alguien del grupo tiene más información acerca de este> matrimonio. Si mis suposiciones son correctas, te vas a dar cuenta que la> línea paterna de esta rama Valdivia de San Miguel el Alto no será la misma> que la de otras ramas Valdivia de la región o de México. > > Cuando encuentres mas información acerca de tu rama Valdivia me avisas para> poder compararla con la que yo tengo y ver si obtenemos los mismos datos> genealógicos. Es una buena manera de saber si no me he equivocado en mi> investigación.> > Bueno primo, que estés bien y estamos en contacto.> > Saludos,> > Ricardo Rodríguez> Valle de Guadalupe, Jalisco> > > -----Mensaje original-----> De: research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org> [mailto:research-bounces@lists.nuestrosranchos.org] En nombre de Rodolfo> Sinai Gomez> Enviado el: Miércoles 27 de Febrero de 2008 9:16 AM> Para: research@lists.nuestrosranchos.org> Asunto: [Nuestros Ranchos] Sanchez y Valdivia de San Miguel el Alto y> Guadalupe Jalisco> > > Estimados todos. Hace unos meses Ricardo Rodríguez me hizo el inmenso favor> de proporcionarme el nombre de mis tatarabuelos por parte de la familia> Valdivia y Sánchez, por lo cual estoy muy agradecido. La curiosidad> insaciable del historiador me lleva a pedirles su ayuda para poder conocer> la historia de esas familias y de ser posible el nombre de mis antepasados. > > Alguien tiene información de quienes fueron los primeros Valdivia en San> Miguel el Alto y cual era su procedencia? Alguno de ustedes puede decirme> quienes eran los padres de Cirila Sánchez Sánchez que casó con Juan Valdivia> Moreno? ellos son mis bisabuelos, padres de Agustina Valdivia Sánchez que> nació en San Miguel el Alto en febrero 20 de 1931.> > Muchas gracias.> > Saludos a todos.> > Rodolfo Sinaí Gómez.> _________________________________________________________________> ¡Súper premios en nanometrajes subiendo tu video!> http://cine.prodigymsn.com/nanometraje&gt; -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org&gt; > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > Nuestros Ranchos Research Mailing List> > To post, send email to:> research(at)nuestrosranchos.org> > To change your subscription, log on to:> http://www.nuestrosranchos.org
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